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Bridget
05-14-2009, 11:45 AM
Level name: Temple of Trials

PSN: Bridget_


Anybody that knows me, or has seen anything I've made in here so far, wether it be Danmaku Rave (which was spotlighted, whee!), or my Boss Rush entries, knows that Im the type that loves a challenge.... and knows how to produce one.

This is my first "full" level, as in, not just a boss, and it keeps up with that tradition I've created, a tradition of TECHNICALLY fair, yet brutal difficulty. This level is definitely intended for experts only.... this may very well be the most difficult thing I've put together yet, and as with Rave, was initially created to challenge *me*.... and for that to happen, it has to be very, very difficult indeed.


The premise is simple: The "temple" is devided into 4 themed "trials". At the beginning of each trial is a race gate. The goal, then, is to complete each seperate trial as fast as possible to max out your score.

Due to the level's difficulty, all of the checkpoints in here are Infinite Checkpoints. I figured, this might reduce the frequency of "I just cant beat this" frustration from players, as well as placing the focus on SCORING, as opposed to just survival. So the idea is to complete each section as fast as possible, while dying the least amount of times. Each death, of course, not only adds to the time it takes to complete the area, but also sucks points offa your score.


I've been fairly generous with the checkpoints throughout the level. This being said, this stage is still EXTREMELY difficult. There are all sorts of crazy dangers and obstacles everywhere: Spiked, rolling monsters that burst through the cieling, fireball chasms, smashers that you must go underneath as well as over, Megaman-style "vanish blocks", spike smashers, a pit, somewhere, that may be filled with lethal happiness, and finally, a spike-filled nightmare section remniscent of many areas from the infamous freeware game "I Wanna Be the Guy", because I was playing that a BIT much. I didnt do any of IWBTG's totally-unfair traps, though.

And finally, nothing I produce would be complete without some sort of Danmaku-style bullet-spraying boss at the end.


The entire level is technically fair.... however brutal it may be..... and I've tested and tested and tested to make sure that it's fuly acable, and hopefully, bug free.

Also, I've placed a large number of secrets throughout the level.... some of which have rather interesting ways of being reached. I wonder if anyone will find any of them? Secrets generally contain stashes of point bubbles. In theory, the harder the secret is to reach, the more bubbles it contains.

This is a level that will be a major challenge for even the most accomplished players out there. Maybe not the prettiest stage ever, and it may anger some people.... but hopefully I've at least kept it INTERESTING the whole way through.



As usual Im not interested in getting "hearted" with this..... no, instead, what I want, same as with Rave, is feedback. If anyone here would be so kind as to try out this level of mine, please also be so kind as to leave me some detailed feedback here. Did you like this at all? Hate it? What was good, what was bad? How was it overall?

Just keep in mind though: This IS designed for expert play, basically. I give no apologies for difficulty.


And finally, a video, and some pics of the level:

utTYhaqAMfU

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/901939/Temple1.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/901939/Temple2.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/901939/Temple3.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/901939/Temple4.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/901939/Temple5.JPG




Please do try it out, and let me know what you think!


To be honest, Im not really expecting this to be a very popular level at all.... it's just plain going to be too much for many players. But Im not creating these things just to please your average player.... what fun is that? They've got all sorts of levels to pick from. I create the levels that *I* want to play..... and hopefully, there might just be someone else out there that could enjoy them as well.

Someone that likes a challenge, hopefully, haha....

....and Im sorry for the spikes, I really am, but I just couldnt resist..... Most fun I've had in LBP level design yet.

Coxy224
05-14-2009, 06:00 PM
*Breathe* GASP! *Breathe*
Ok, how can I put this midly.........
THIS LEVEL IS BLOODY HARD! :p
Ok, I think I got my point across. I mean, I can understand difficult levels that claim to be hard and then you have to balance on wafer thin glass - but this is much harder!
You have perfected the art of platforming if you can beat this - hell, I couldn't.
[Sorry to give feedback without finishing the level, I just felt I was never going to get there!]

Pros:
+Beautiful design
+Each section
+Bonus points to be had
+Each section being a race
+Great use of materials
+Obvious, yet challenging platforming

Cons:
-It's so unbeleivabley hard
-I sweared a lot :(

I 5 starred it and hearted....why? I'm not sure. I really want to come back to it later and finish it but it also had some kind of charm
Just a note, if you have any thermo left (somehow!) I would suggest making your own character as the blue cowboy didn't really fit the theme for me.
But still, a brilliant level - well made and frustrating beyond-reason [in a good way] to play

CCubbage
05-14-2009, 06:11 PM
*Breathe* GASP! *Breathe*
Ok, how can I put this midly.........
THIS LEVEL IS BLOODY HARD! :p
Ok, I think I got my point across. I mean, I can understand difficult levels that claim to be hard and then you have to balance on wafer thin glass - but this is much harder!
You have perfected the art of platforming if you can beat this - hell, I couldn't.
[Sorry to give feedback without finishing the level, I just felt I was never going to get there!]

Pros:
+Beautiful design
+Each section
+Bonus points to be had
+Each section being a race
+Great use of materials
+Obvious, yet challenging platforming

Cons:
-It's so unbeleivabley hard
-I sweared a lot :(

I 5 starred it and hearted....why? I'm not sure. I really want to come back to it later and finish it but it also had some kind of charm
Just a note, if you have any thermo left (somehow!) I would suggest making your own character as the blue cowboy didn't really fit the theme for me.
But still, a brilliant level - well made and frustrating beyond-reason [in a good way] to play
Heh heh..... I was waiting for the first person to play this and hear the feedback. Last time I played one of Bridget's levels my brain almost exploded (but.... in a good way, if that's possible). Okay, now I HAVE to see this when I get home....

rtm223
05-14-2009, 07:07 PM
Hey, so I just had a go and got (i assume) towards the end of the third section, then it turns out I had selected play online instead of play on my own, two people joined and it got laggy as hell. I didn't fancy spike dodging with lag so I quit.

Anyhoo, I'll play again when I get back from the pub, which should be interesting. All I say for now is: for the most part I liked it - it's got to be the most intelligent of the "extreme difficulty" levels I've seen, although there were some sections where I'm not sure I fully agree with the "fairness". More details to follow...

Bridget
05-14-2009, 09:53 PM
*Breathe* GASP! *Breathe*
Ok, how can I put this midly.........
THIS LEVEL IS BLOODY HARD! :p
Ok, I think I got my point across. I mean, I can understand difficult levels that claim to be hard and then you have to balance on wafer thin glass - but this is much harder!
You have perfected the art of platforming if you can beat this - hell, I couldn't.
[Sorry to give feedback without finishing the level, I just felt I was never going to get there!]

Pros:
+Beautiful design
+Each section
+Bonus points to be had
+Each section being a race
+Great use of materials
+Obvious, yet challenging platforming

Cons:
-It's so unbeleivabley hard
-I sweared a lot :(

I 5 starred it and hearted....why? I'm not sure. I really want to come back to it later and finish it but it also had some kind of charm
Just a note, if you have any thermo left (somehow!) I would suggest making your own character as the blue cowboy didn't really fit the theme for me.
But still, a brilliant level - well made and frustrating beyond-reason [in a good way] to play



Haha, I got alot of that sort of response with Rave as well... the whole "Omigod this is so brutal I'll see it in my nightmares, but I cant stop coming back to it anyway". Some sort of "addictive" quality I guess.... I must have done SOMETHING right, haha.

Glad you liked it though. How far did you get? Did you meet up with the boss? Did you find the happiness-pit near the start? (I made that pit thing when I was a BIT blasted on caffiene. I thought it was hilarious)

As for the blue cowboy guys.... yeah, I agree, but by that point everything ELSE was finished and I was getting lazy about it. I figured "It's a little man that talks, thats enough", haha. Freakishly, there actually IS enough thermo left that I could probably have thrown a 5th area in there..... but that'd have been too much. I'd also considering throwing a secret zone in there..... but no, instead, I just threw smaller secrets everywhere.




Hey, so I just had a go and got (i assume) towards the end of the third section, then it turns out I had selected play online instead of play on my own, two people joined and it got laggy as hell. I didn't fancy spike dodging with lag so I quit.

Anyhoo, I'll play again when I get back from the pub, which should be interesting. All I say for now is: for the most part I liked it - it's got to be the most intelligent of the "extreme difficulty" levels I've seen, although there were some sections where I'm not sure I fully agree with the "fairness". More details to follow...


If you're finding a particular area to be unfair, or cant figure something out, just lemme know. It's possible there may still be a small bug in there somewhere.... but I doubt it. Otherwise, I'll try to give tips if I can.

And yeah, I wouldnt wanna do this one in multiplay either. You get infinite lives, but it's still very much designed for single-play. I should probably say as much in the level's description.

rtm223
05-14-2009, 10:22 PM
Right, as it turns out, now I'm back from the pub I'm definately way too drunk to play a level this hard. I will play through and give full review tomorrow or the weekend. The only "bug" I found was in the second section when you have the pistons that alternately move out and you have to climb up. I ended up on top and then fell behind them. This was partially due to the camera angle and I couldn't see what was going on.

In terms of fairness, my main gripe was actually the camera angles in places which made the platforming challenge harder. I don't know if this was designed this way, or if it's just me being rubbish at platforming from some angles (I've seen a lot of levels with camera angles I didn't like so it could be me), but if the camera angle makes things harder for me I don't consider that "fair".

As I said, it's an intelligently designed level and it's clear you put a lot of thought into the hazards on the level so none of it feel "cheap", like the majority of extreme levels.

Silverleon
05-14-2009, 10:32 PM
Oho!
Someone else that like making/playing challenges!
Very well thn, i'll take on this level, shouldn't be too dificult. >:]

CCubbage
05-15-2009, 01:54 AM
Okay, I played through the first 3 full areas (I wasn't really having THAT hard of a time, but I had to go somewhere with my wife so I had to shut er down!)

So far I'm really enjoying it, and up to the point I had to stop I didn't think it was THAT hard, but definately way harder than the average level. The thing I like most about it is that you have a good sense of fair. You're one of the few designers of difficult levels that seems to understand the difference between fair and cheap. I found that if I just paid attention I could figure it out.

That being said, so far I have a couple minor things I'd like to mention:

1. Tiny thing, but something that matters - in the first area when you come down the stairs you have a tendency to drift into the back layer because the angle of the wall jams allows you to fall onto them. This could easily be fixed by putting a few steep-angle invisible slices of invisible dark matter back there to prevent it.

2. In the first area with the disappearing blocks.... I just felt like the camera angle panned to the right made it difficult for me to tell where to land the sackboy, so the area was more difficult than it need ed to be. I'm not opposed to a hard jumping puzzle, but when I'm trying to land and missing the blocks because of a camera angle it gets a bit frustrating.

So far thats it, and those are both minor. When I get a chance I'll hop back in. Since this is my type of game, I definately gave it 5 stars and a heart... fantastic job!

Burnvictim42
05-15-2009, 05:01 AM
oooh brutally hard? created by bridget_? bullet spraying boss? you had me at "hello" ;p

Definitely going to have to give this a try, took forever but i finally beat Rave, and i definitely like challenges :D

Bridget
05-15-2009, 05:26 AM
Okay, I played through the first 3 full areas (I wasn't really having THAT hard of a time, but I had to go somewhere with my wife so I had to shut er down!)

So far I'm really enjoying it, and up to the point I had to stop I didn't think it was THAT hard, but definately way harder than the average level. The thing I like most about it is that you have a good sense of fair. You're one of the few designers of difficult levels that seems to understand the difference between fair and cheap. I found that if I just paid attention I could figure it out.

That being said, so far I have a couple minor things I'd like to mention:

1. Tiny thing, but something that matters - in the first area when you come down the stairs you have a tendency to drift into the back layer because the angle of the wall jams allows you to fall onto them. This could easily be fixed by putting a few steep-angle invisible slices of invisible dark matter back there to prevent it.

2. In the first area with the disappearing blocks.... I just felt like the camera angle panned to the right made it difficult for me to tell where to land the sackboy, so the area was more difficult than it need ed to be. I'm not opposed to a hard jumping puzzle, but when I'm trying to land and missing the blocks because of a camera angle it gets a bit frustrating.

So far thats it, and those are both minor. When I get a chance I'll hop back in. Since this is my type of game, I definately gave it 5 stars and a heart... fantastic job!

Bloody hell, cant I just make ONE thing without forgetting a bug in there somewhere? I know just what you're talking about with the stairs, totally forgot to fix that (and yes, it IS annoying, isnt it). I'll do that momentarily, after a bit of food.

And I'll have a look at the camera in that one spot and decide if I should change it or not.

I know what you mean though, when it comes to difficult levels, alot of players really do think that "cheap" = hard. It's something that's not easy to do properly, really. For me, it comes from all the shmups. The idea of "pay attention and you can figure it out" is used frequently in those. Of course, even when you DO figure it out.... you still need the right level of skill to then overcome it!



Also, I should mention: If anyone here has played the 2nd part of the 2nd Boss Rush level, the boss at the end of this stage is Enduro-Dualis, which is also found in that stage. It was originally created for THIS stage, but I liked it so much that I wanted it to get a bit more exposure by being in the Boss Rush. So if you've already played that, you've already seen the boss. Of course, still have to BEAT it to get the stage cleared.....

Burnvictim42
05-15-2009, 05:44 AM
Awww.... no new boss D: You make me sad. Ah well, the rest shall be playworthy i think. It'll be interesting to see an actual LEVEL, not just a boss ;p

Bridget
05-15-2009, 05:52 AM
Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble there.... you'll just have to get annihilated by something you've already seen as opposed to being annihilated by something new and shiny :p

Coxy224
05-15-2009, 05:56 AM
lol, I think I got somewhere in the third section (relatively near the begining of it).
Oh and I did find the "Happy Spot". Totally made me laugh out loud! :p

rtm223
05-15-2009, 07:57 AM
In the first area with the disappearing blocks.... I just felt like the camera angle panned to the right made it difficult for me to tell where to land the sackboy, so the area was more difficult than it need ed to be. I'm not opposed to a hard jumping puzzle, but when I'm trying to land and missing the blocks because of a camera angle it gets a bit frustrating.
This was the camera that I really found awkward to deal with. I think the other ones were probably OK, but this one put me in a critical mood! That was a really nice section as well. The other thing about the camera angles is that if they are completely fixed it can be difficult to see what plane objects are in, as you don't get the relative movement due to perspective.

Burnvictim42
05-15-2009, 08:03 AM
Okay, just played it. High score woohoo! To all of you naysayers who point out the fact that i'm the ONLY completing player- shut it please :P

okay, lemme just start with this:

ALJRHYALJKSDFOIAKLUJOFIUAELUXOISWALKFJAEIWRL~~!!!1 !!!

Sorry, i decided to play your level and silverleons shinan fortress, back to back. Oh, and then theres teh fact that i had to play it again so i could rereview it. Apparently i'm some sort of glutton for punishment, or my sackboy devil is having a cruel little joke on me.

okay, now that i've gotten all the primal screaming out of my system, on to a review ;p

First of all, it is most DEFINITELY challenging... but mostly a GOOD challenging :D Its made of the type of traps that makes you somewhat angry the first few times they kill you, but are oddly satisfying when you complete them/realize how to solve them (examples: the pushing block wall climb, and the glass platforming). There are a few bugs with the race gates (you can jump over them for the most part), but i'm not sure that really is a problem... seeing as there was a lot of death going on. As an example, i'll use my score. At one point i was well in the 300 (thousands?). By the end of the game, i was around 10 (thousand?). I was dying A LOT lol. Got a much better score the second time though.

First section: cool idea with timing jumps... odd that the key is visible though. I'll let it slide, this level isn't really all that big on visuals, its big on death :P Okay, the plazma ball dodgy thingy... i think i got by more on luck than anything lol I really think you should remove your "happy area" (sowwy D:). It was more annoying than anything that when i fell, i had to move, and WAIT for myself to die. Making the player commit suicide is rather harsh, and it takes a lot longer to respawn >.> A simple gas cloud layer would do the job a lot easier. Like your ninja men, and your rock monsters- cool ways to emphasize timing. I wish the rocks respawned though... maybe emit them if the player ends up back at the checkpoint? (ie: dies ;p) Wasn't entirely sure i liked the grabby part... the slow ones are annoying (as theres a RACE going on >.>) but i guess the fast ones are about timing... Not sure why that bottom layer of spikes is there. Felt like filler. The top one is good, nice idea.

Second Section: At the end of the first section, theres that little block used to get up to a "secret" area (its pretty obvious if you ask me lol) ... i took it with me >:^D. This caused me to be able to bypass your ninja... you might wanna fix that, by adding some incorporeal material to prevent the block falling down. The squishing things are nothing new.. though the fact that you had to go back over them is, i liked that. As i said before, i like the block pushing thing... its a little annoying that you have to restart when you mess up... but meh, i can suck it up. Oh, on the right of it, at the top- it looks like theres an area to the right- so i jumped down. Might wanna add a block there, so ppl don't have to do it again >.> liked the sliding glass platfoms here, added a nice twist. The ball on the far right- theres a little platform to the left of it, and teh ball can get stuck on it. Make it angled, so the ball falls down.

Third Section: This was by far the hardest section for me. If those weren't unlimited checkpoints... i would NEVER finish this level. I understand why you want to use spikes... but they're just so dang annoying =/. The part at the beginning where you have to hang on to the blocks... that is just amazing. Wonderful piece of platforming, made me feel warm and fuzzy after beating it. I'm not sure if this was accidental, but the far right block doesn't have spikes on the top. Then we got to the spike stairs... This was my biggest point (haha- get it ;p) of frustration.... wait a minute... WTH? lol, i didn't notice that grabable part there >.> I TOTALLY did that staircase by jumping on the safe part of the spikes, all teh way up. I think i deserve some extra points for that D: And this is why i play levels more than once... BC i can miss things like taht >.> lol gj :P Nice wall down climb, it requires some precision, but isn't too ridiculous. I like how you put in those "momentum stopping" spikes in some of your places. This set of stairs was fine (after the first set, no wonder lol >.> (is still facepalming self)) I liked the glass part... but it felt a little short.

Fourth Section: Not much i can really add here. This was by far the easiest (after playing BR2 into oblivion) though i noticed a few things changed. One: on the right side, you can jump up onto the grab area. Not sure if this was a fluke jump or something, but it somehow changed- both times. Second: the dissolve blocks REALLY need to be glued. When i died, it was more due to the blocks slipping, causing my sackboy to catapult to his inevitable doom. Other than that, its a lot easier than BR due to the timer increase... but its still very challenging. For the noobies out there, heres a hint: white, then dark blue ;p It was also kinda annoying that when i spawned, i walked right into gas. Could you put a wall there please? :P


Overall, good, challenging level. Needs a few tweaks here and there, and isn't always very nice to look at visually (a majority of your "scenery" is comprised of death traps lol). 4*... with deliberation. I origanally rated 3, but upped to 4 on a whim :P It is a good level... the frustration was what bogged it down, so i decided to kick it up a notch.

BAM!

okay, now that thats done, i'm off to do something calming... maybe some yoga, or a good game of Kitten cannon...

caio.

Bridget
05-15-2009, 01:10 PM
.....wow.

Now THAT is the type of response/feedback I like to get! DETAIL, basically, lol. I'm getting alot of it in here, but you've given me the most so far, which is quite appreciated.

Now to respond to various things you said, for which, I'll chop that up into various smaller quotes:


okay, lemme just start with this:

ALJRHYALJKSDFOIAKLUJOFIUAELUXOISWALKFJAEIWRL~~!!!1 !!!

You're not the first one to give that response to something like this. I got that alot with Rave. It was made of different letters, and I think there was a 2 on the end, but same idea.


First of all, it is most DEFINITELY challenging... but mostly a GOOD challenging :D Its made of the type of traps that makes you somewhat angry the first few times they kill you, but are oddly satisfying when you complete them/realize how to solve them (examples: the pushing block wall climb, and the glass platforming). There are a few bugs with the race gates (you can jump over them for the most part), but i'm not sure that really is a problem... seeing as there was a lot of death going on. As an example, i'll use my score. At one point i was well in the 300 (thousands?). By the end of the game, i was around 10 (thousand?). I was dying A LOT lol. Got a much better score the second time though.

......you can jump over the race gates? .......bloody hell! I thought I'd fixed everything. I'll get that later, fix that, I will.


First section: cool idea with timing jumps... odd that the key is visible though. I'll let it slide, this level isn't really all that big on visuals, its big on death :P

I knew about that problem. I was just too lazy to fix it :p No, really, Im serious. I had those bloody stupid blocks all patterned out PERFECTLY, and then suddenly I realized I used the wrong block in the emitters, the one that I'd forgotten to hide the switch on, and it's like "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh screw it, Im not fixing that"


Okay, the plazma ball dodgy thingy... i think i got by more on luck than anything lol I really think you should remove your "happy area" (sowwy D:). It was more annoying than anything that when i fell, i had to move, and WAIT for myself to die. Making the player commit suicide is rather harsh, and it takes a lot longer to respawn >.> A simple gas cloud layer would do the job a lot easier. Like your ninja men, and your rock monsters- cool ways to emphasize timing. I wish the rocks respawned though... maybe emit them if the player ends up back at the checkpoint? (ie: dies ;p)

I dunno, I thought the happy pit was pretty **** hilarious at the time. Shows what happens when I've had that much caffiene, and.... whoa. Whoa. .....whoa. Wait. ......those are ninjas? ....well, whatever the hell they are, I'll be calling them ninjas from now on, lol. Them and the appropriately named rock-monsters will likely be showing up in most future levels I make; ended up liking both alot. I'd originally thought of having the rock guys spawn repeatedly, but 2 things; I hadnt finished the boss yet at that point, but knew where I wanted to go with the stage overall, so I figured, emitting large objects might use up thermo I might want later.... also, I figured it might be just plain annoying, at that point in the level.



As i said before, i like the block pushing thing... its a little annoying that you have to restart when you mess up... but meh, i can suck it up. Oh, on the right of it, at the top- it looks like theres an area to the right- so i jumped down. Might wanna add a block there, so ppl don't have to do it again >.> liked the sliding glass platfoms here, added a nice twist. The ball on the far right- theres a little platform to the left of it, and teh ball can get stuck on it. Make it angled, so the ball falls down.

Someone LIKED that thing? Whoa. Another surprise. That thing.... I call it a Ladder.... is from the very FIRST level I ever made, briefly after LBP came out (well before I made Rave). That level, "Ampere Cave", has alot of the same sort of style I do now, it's just..... highly ugly. Im not good on "pretty" as it is, but that...... ugly. I may redo it, just take that version and retexture and everything.... but the point is, that gizmo was in that stage originally. There were 3 of them. I got yelled at alot for putting them in there, lol. The first one in that stage had spikes JUST to the left. You screwed up, you didnt just start over, you lost a life. And the THIRD one... well, if you thought this one was neat, you should see the "dual" version of it. I just might reuse that version next time as well. The 2 ladders are like the ninjas or the rock dudes, objects I ended up liking alot, so they'll see alot of re-use.


Third Section: This was by far the hardest section for me. If those weren't unlimited checkpoints... i would NEVER finish this level. I understand why you want to use spikes... but they're just so dang annoying =/.

Yeah, that's part of the point. I'd been playing IWBTG a bit too much, so I was seeing spikes in my sleep as it was. Also, it was hilarious to make. I knew I was on the right track when I had aer0blue test the level for me. I could tell he'd gotten to that section when I got an IM along the lines of "Oh, Bridget, you ***, why did you build that?", omigod I was cracking up....



The part at the beginning where you have to hang on to the blocks... that is just amazing. Wonderful piece of platforming, made me feel warm and fuzzy after beating it. I'm not sure if this was accidental, but the far right block doesn't have spikes on the top. Then we got to the spike stairs... This was my biggest point (haha- get it ;p) of frustration.... wait a minute... WTH? lol, i didn't notice that grabable part there >.> I TOTALLY did that staircase by jumping on the safe part of the spikes, all teh way up. I think i deserve some extra points for that D: And this is why i play levels more than once... BC i can miss things like taht >.> lol gj :P Nice wall down climb, it requires some precision, but isn't too ridiculous. I like how you put in those "momentum stopping" spikes in some of your places. This set of stairs was fine (after the first set, no wonder lol >.> (is still facepalming self)) I liked the glass part... but it felt a little short.

.....you went past the first staircase without shimmying on the cieling? .......it's possible to do that? Yes. Yes, you get extra points for doing that. That one impresses me, it does. And I didnt go any further with the glass part because that section needed to end at a very specific spot due to where that tube needed to be, to drop down to the boss. Also, the last time I did "glass with spikes on", I got yelled at (Ampere again). And no, the missing spikes on that block isnt an accident. There's a reason for it. Try going up a bit higher.


Fourth Section: Not much i can really add here. This was by far the easiest (after playing BR2 into oblivion) though i noticed a few things changed. One: on the right side, you can jump up onto the grab area. Not sure if this was a fluke jump or something, but it somehow changed- both times. Second: the dissolve blocks REALLY need to be glued. When i died, it was more due to the blocks slipping, causing my sackboy to catapult to his inevitable doom. Other than that, its a lot easier than BR due to the timer increase... but its still very challenging. For the noobies out there, heres a hint: white, then dark blue ;p It was also kinda annoying that when i spawned, i walked right into gas. Could you put a wall there please? :P

Oh good grief. MORE bugs? I swear, **** bugs follow me around! There's 2 more things that are getting fixed when I get on next. I totally forgot to stick those stupid blocks down. Again, thanks for pointing those out.


Overall, good, challenging level. Needs a few tweaks here and there, and isn't always very nice to look at visually (a majority of your "scenery" is comprised of death traps lol). 4*... with deliberation. I origanally rated 3, but upped to 4 on a whim :P It is a good level... the frustration was what bogged it down, so i decided to kick it up a notch.

BAM!

okay, now that thats done, i'm off to do something calming... maybe some yoga, or a good game of Kitten cannon...

caio.

Yeah, scenery, haha.... this is about as pretty as stuff I make gets. I aint good with artistic....ness. Same with Rave. Though, some people seemed to think THAT thing was eye-pleasing. I thought it was more "murderous" than "pretty", but, hey, whatever. I figure, if people want eye-candy, there's lots of easier levels that focus on that more.


Wow, that was alot of feedback all in one post! All of it useful, too.

And Im not surprised you're the first one on the scoreboard... kudos to you for persisting even despite the extreme difficulty! Next, try acing it :P Yes, I've actually done that. Careful though, you may lose your sanity if you actually try to do that. Really though, it's barely gotten any plays just yet. Im not QUITE sure how to promote the level properly..... just hitting re-publish over and over again no longer works! I've gotta get some tips on getting these levels "out there". Spent alot of time on this one, so I wanna get it some decent exposure....



Anyway, I'll fix the problems you'd pointed out tomorrow, and post up a new version.

rtm223
05-15-2009, 02:29 PM
First section:

It occured to me, as I was repeatedly dying, that for a large amount of the time at the beginning of the level, you're not losing points for dying, only time. But seeing as I can't get through the section in the time allowed anyway, it takes away any kind of fear of dying.

The emmitted blocks room I still love, but I really think the camera angle is what I'm fighting with here, nothing to do with my timing.

For the most part, I found the obstacles in this section mostly quite average (in terms of enjoyment), was suitable challenging of course, there just wasn't much that stood out.

The second section.
Ok, liked the pushing blocks climbing bit, but didn't notice the grabbable roof and ended up behind the pushing blocks as I said. Again another poor camera angle on this section I felt, although it didn't get in the way this time, it just felt wrong to me.

I love the section where you have to go under hazards and then back over them - I've been trying to do stuff like this and very few creators seem to bother with it and I like seeing it because it takes that little bit of extra thought

I'm not normally a fan of glass platforming sections, but this was short and wasn't just lots of really thin moving glass so I'l let it slide (geddit? That was an accidental pun, I'm sorry).

On the last part of the second section when you release the block and activate the cusion on a pulley, both times it is quicker and loses less points to suicide than to head back through the challenges.


And here my feedback ends, as I just dropped back down from the race finish to check which section that was, and the cusion on a chain hasn't come back down. I know I shouldn't be going back down, but you might want to make it one of the travels-up-on-the-back-plane-with-walls-and-floor-on-the-front-plane devices.

I will finish this level and give you feedback on parts 3 and 4, but now I'm off out.

Overall, it's a nice set of intelligent challenges, with great variation, decent number of secret areas, and solid visuals (simple yet pleasant). Bloody hard though...

NinjaMicWZ
05-15-2009, 08:03 PM
I didn't have a whole lot of trouble with this, except for one part, but of course the infinite lives helped. I landed 58k on my first playthrough, and on my subsequent tries to set a better score I was actually nailing 90k with time ticking and NO deaths with perfect timing... until that godawful part with the vertical spike drops... the second drop. I dwindled my score down to 30k or so right there and was burning through time - I gave up, for now, but will come back again. This level is addictive in the same way deboerave's Jumper levels are, but much grander and with alot more variety.

I loved the part with the plasma balls and the hill with the rolling spiked enemies.

For some reason on one try with two players the boss was slaughtering us, and returning super quick... I don't know if it was just my partner dragging the camera or what, but I was getting crucified that time when I had a pretty easy time the first try by myself. He's not nearly as tough as Danmaku, but is still a great boss layout and is a nice surprising icing on the cake to an already over the top level.

Lately I've only really been finding myself coming back to challenging levels... they're all the old my attention, and this is a gem as far as that goes.

Burnvictim42
05-15-2009, 09:21 PM
.....wow.

Now THAT is the type of response/feedback I like to get! DETAIL, basically, lol. I'm getting alot of it in here, but you've given me the most so far, which is quite appreciated.

Now to respond to various things you said, for which, I'll chop that up into various smaller quotes:
Well thats the feedback i try to give (if i can) because i know that the more detail and ridiculously nitpicky i get- the more the creator can gain from my replay :P Sometimes i just dont have the time though... but i do what i can :P Oh, and i think i'll use the same method of quoting;p



I dunno, I thought the happy pit was pretty **** hilarious at the time. Shows what happens when I've had that much caffiene, and.... whoa. Whoa. .....whoa. Wait. ......those are ninjas? ....well, whatever the hell they are, I'll be calling them ninjas from now on, lol. Them and the appropriately named rock-monsters will likely be showing up in most future levels I make; ended up liking both alot. I'd originally thought of having the rock guys spawn repeatedly, but 2 things; I hadnt finished the boss yet at that point, but knew where I wanted to go with the stage overall, so I figured, emitting large objects might use up thermo I might want later.... also, I figured it might be just plain annoying, at that point in the level.

Well, i called them ninjas BC they looked like ninjas to me lol. They're little short black squares, wielding shurikens :P Okay, maybe these are very fat and small ninjas... but thats the word that popped into my head XD As to the rock monsters (monsters made of rocks- what a concept!) you can probably put that in if you still want. By adjusting the emitters stuff so its only shooting 1 at a time, etc you end up saving a lot of space off your initial emitting settings.




Yeah, scenery, haha.... this is about as pretty as stuff I make gets. I aint good with artistic....ness. Same with Rave. Though, some people seemed to think THAT thing was eye-pleasing. I thought it was more "murderous" than "pretty", but, hey, whatever. I figure, if people want eye-candy, there's lots of easier levels that focus on that more.

I know, but thats what i was expecting :P Bridget, you are the Da Vinci of deadliness. Your creations are original, unique, and might make players chop off an ear in frustration ;p Killing sackpeople is your fine art.



And Im not surprised you're the first one on the scoreboard... kudos to you for persisting even despite the extreme difficulty! Next, try acing it :P Yes, I've actually done that. Careful though, you may lose your sanity if you actually try to do that. Really though, it's barely gotten any plays just yet. Im not QUITE sure how to promote the level properly..... just hitting re-publish over and over again no longer works! I've gotta get some tips on getting these levels "out there". Spent alot of time on this one, so I wanna get it some decent exposure....

Ahahaha... yeah. When i'm actually good enough to ace this level... lets just say everyone older than me will be dead :P I lost my sanity a bit already (especially BC i'm a bit of a perfectionist- i would LITERALLY restart the level if i didn't get a good enough score on the first race gate) and i'd like to spend some quality time with what i have left ;p As to getting "exposure"... in order for it to get boosted back up, you have to change something about the level... its just easiest to move a block of dark matter around, somewhere where it doesnt affect anything. But, good luck getting it "out there"... i have a feeling a lot of kiddies etc are going to be rating the "frustrating" 1 star out of it. =/

glad it helped, so did the kitten cannon :D

Bridget
05-15-2009, 11:27 PM
And here my feedback ends, as I just dropped back down from the race finish to check which section that was, and the cusion on a chain hasn't come back down. I know I shouldn't be going back down, but you might want to make it one of the travels-up-on-the-back-plane-with-walls-and-floor-on-the-front-plane devices.


....well crap on a stick, there's ANOTHER thing I forgot to fix, is the fabric ball there, so that it doesnt get stuck on the floor above you if you go back down or something. Real easy fix, I just havent done it yet. The intention is, in fact, to allow the player to go back and look around a bit if they'd like, in that blue zone... there's a few stashes of point-bubbles that can be found there, and obviously it's best to do so when the timer isnt ticking, so I left that option in. I'll fix the chain later; thanks for pointing that out.



I didn't have a whole lot of trouble with this, except for one part, but of course the infinite lives helped. I landed 58k on my first playthrough, and on my subsequent tries to set a better score I was actually nailing 90k with time ticking and NO deaths with perfect timing... until that godawful part with the vertical spike drops... the second drop. I dwindled my score down to 30k or so right there and was burning through time - I gave up, for now, but will come back again. This level is addictive in the same way deboerave's Jumper levels are, but much grander and with alot more variety.

I loved the part with the plasma balls and the hill with the rolling spiked enemies.

For some reason on one try with two players the boss was slaughtering us, and returning super quick... I don't know if it was just my partner dragging the camera or what, but I was getting crucified that time when I had a pretty easy time the first try by myself. He's not nearly as tough as Danmaku, but is still a great boss layout and is a nice surprising icing on the cake to an already over the top level.

Lately I've only really been finding myself coming back to challenging levels... they're all the old my attention, and this is a gem as far as that goes.

.....well hey there, Ninja! I didnt expect to see you in here.

Glad you seemed to like it. And I know what you mean.... the more challenging ones are all that hold MY attention as well, which has been the case since LBP released. I mean, Im happy to play through levels for people to check them out, or even review them now, but what I want is a CHALLENGE. Gotta sorta search that type out sometimes. And there we have the reason why I just make the hard stuff myself instead of wasting time looking :P Someone's gotta do it, after all, hah.

The boss, "Enduro", definitely isnt as nasty as Rave is, no. It isnt as nasty as Tronadara either (my entry for the first BR, if you recall). But then, that's about how I wanted it to be, with this one. As for really, REALLY zany bosses go, that's what "Danmaku Gruidae" will be. That one's coming along nicely. I'll say, that should be an.... interesting surprise for those that play it. Wait'll you see what that one can do.... Im rather certain it's not been done before. As it is though, if you havent tried the 2nd BR, give it a shot, Enduro shows up in there as well as another one I'd done. I swear the first half of the stage dont wanna work right, though.



I know, but thats what i was expecting :P Bridget, you are the Da Vinci of deadliness. Your creations are original, unique, and might make players chop off an ear in frustration ;p Killing sackpeople is your fine art.


Wow, lol, there's a line I'll be remembering later.

And you know, you're not the only one that will entirely restart the level if something particularly stupid happens... ahh,I do that all the time, haha....

And I know, people that get obliterated by it might one-star it..... but oh well. It's not made for that type of player anyway, and neither was Rave, which seemed to do mostly fine.

Night Angel
05-16-2009, 12:34 AM
I like what you did with your exceeding difficult level. Instead of other "hard levels" you have excellent content and a great variety of different challenges (I like the climbing down the wall of spikes part. Very unique!) I'll give it a go soon.

Bridget
05-16-2009, 08:41 AM
I've gone and fixed up all of the bugs that you all have mentioned in here, and made a couple of slight changes.


1. The fabric balls in area 2 are all double chained now, so they shouldnt get stuck anymore.

2. You can no longer jump over the race gates.

3. The blocks in Enduro's room are now nailed down to the floor properly. No more slippage!

4. You can no longer fall into the back planes in that room by entering the door wrongly.



I also went and took the high score for myself, which is now: 116,217. I'll be surprised if anyone beats that particularly fast.

rtm223
05-16-2009, 10:04 AM
OK so I finally managed to play the entire level, so I can give you feedback on sections 3/4. First off though, I managed to break one of the double chained sponges :( Sorry, I'm just pretty good at breaking stuff... It's the one that i assume goes to a secret section, to the right of the second race finish.

Section 3: The second room in here took all of my points, I was actually looking quite competitive at that stage but I ran out of race time and dropped down to nearly 0! I just hate navigating tight spaces with spikes, because of that invisible trapezium of effect. This isn't really a problem with your level, it's a mixture of me not having played enough to gauge the effect of spikes and MM having a stupid spike implementation. Personally, I'd keep to using spikes where you don't have to guage them so much, but thats because I'm rubbish at them. So yeah, I sucked at section 3 and ended up 40,000 points behind the next lowest scorer (still in the top 5 though, yeah!). Saying that, the first room in the third section was possibly my favourite hazard in the level. It wasn't difficult but I just enjoyed shimmying along the sides and bottoms of the blocks.

Enduro dualis: I don't really have anything to say. It's a room full of plasma then some platforming. I found it pretty uninspiring, especially compared to the rest of the level. Sorry.

I'm sticking with my previous post that this is by far the best of the extreme difficulty levels I've played. Good work.

Bridget
05-16-2009, 10:26 AM
OK so I finally managed to play the entire level, so I can give you feedback on sections 3/4. First off though, I managed to break one of the double chained sponges :( Sorry, I'm just pretty good at breaking stuff... It's the one that i assume goes to a secret section, to the right of the second race finish.

Section 3: The second room in here took all of my points, I was actually looking quite competitive at that stage but I ran out of race time and dropped down to nearly 0! I just hate navigating tight spaces with spikes, because of that invisible trapezium of effect. This isn't really a problem with your level, it's a mixture of me not having played enough to gauge the effect of spikes and MM having a stupid spike implementation. Personally, I'd keep to using spikes where you don't have to guage them so much, but thats because I'm rubbish at them. So yeah, I sucked at section 3 and ended up 40,000 points behind the next lowest scorer (still in the top 5 though, yeah!). Saying that, the first room in the third section was possibly my favourite hazard in the level. It wasn't difficult but I just enjoyed shimmying along the sides and bottoms of the blocks.

Enduro dualis: I don't really have anything to say. It's a room full of plasma then some platforming. I found it pretty uninspiring, especially compared to the rest of the level. Sorry.

I'm sticking with my previous post that this is by far the best of the extreme difficulty levels I've played. Good work.


......one of the sponges broke? I think I know just which one you mean there, but I dont suppose you could tell me how exactly you managed to break it? If possible, I'd like to fix it so that it cant happen again. ..... I cant figure it out myself, I dunno how you did that, lol.

As for the spikes, well, the trick with these is something similar to learning how to do well at any shmup (the genre I get most inspiration from): You gotta learn just where the hitboxes are. In particular, it's important to know just where Sackboy's hitbox is. It's not quite where it seems like it should be! Also, I agree on the spikes a bit. For the MOST part the spikes themselves work well, but even I think the hitbox on them is a TAD strange. But not bad enough to be too much of a problem. It can still lead to some danged odd deaths though.


As for the boss, hmm, that IS my usual style.... bullet spraying mechanical nightmare, like Rave..... being that I get inspiration for the bosses from danmaku style shmups..... but Enduro isnt meant to be particularly impressive or anything. It was, in fact, an experiment. I wanted to try out that idea with the platform bit that appears behind it when it's time to pop a brain, as it's a concept I may use later on for another "major" boss like Rave.


.....also, it took only one night to make, so.... yeah, it's a strange geometrical shape that tries to fry you, is all it is :p I wanted the focus to be on the level, not JUST on the boss this time.


.....and strangely, everyone seems to like that bit with the blocks on the pistons, right before the spike zone. Odd..... I personally thought it was the most annoying room in the whole stage.... would you believe I kept getting squashed there during testing? Like, over and over again?

rtm223
05-16-2009, 12:28 PM
......one of the sponges broke? I think I know just which one you mean there, but I dont suppose you could tell me how exactly you managed to break it?
When I'm testing software and trigger a condition that casues a bug I call that "breaking" it. So I broke your level even though all the parts were intact. The sponge just got stuck at the top and didn't come down...


You gotta learn just where the hitboxes are. In particular, it's important to know just where Sackboy's hitbox is. It's not quite where it seems like it should be!
Yeah like I said, I'm just not used to spikes enough to have a natural feel for where the hitboxes are.


As for the boss, hmm, that IS my usual style.... bullet spraying mechanical nightmare, like Rave..... being that I get inspiration for the bosses from danmaku style shmups..... but Enduro isnt meant to be particularly impressive or anything. It was, in fact, an experiment. I wanted to try out that idea with the platform bit that appears behind it when it's time to pop a brain, as it's a concept I may use later on for another "major" boss like Rave.


.....also, it took only one night to make, so.... yeah, it's a strange geometrical shape that tries to fry you, is all it is :p I wanted the focus to be on the level, not JUST on the boss this time.[/QUOTE]
Well at least it was something different than just a plasma emmitter and a paintball switch... I'm generally not that impressed by most LBP bosses I've come across. Not necessarially saying I could do better, but most of them really aren't worth my gaming time in my book.

The one thing that did strike me about that boss, is that there is a LOT of plasma, but it's not as hard as it looks to dodge the patterns? Was this luck, or planning or lots and lots of tuning?



.....and strangely, everyone seems to like that bit with the blocks on the pistons, right before the spike zone. Odd..... I personally thought it was the most annoying room in the whole stage.... would you believe I kept getting squashed there during testing? Like, over and over again?

Squished? I go underneath them, so squiching is not an option. Is that not the way you are supposed to do it?

Bridget
05-16-2009, 09:30 PM
The one thing that did strike me about that boss, is that there is a LOT of plasma, but it's not as hard as it looks to dodge the patterns? Was this luck, or planning or lots and lots of tuning?

Squished? I go underneath them, so squiching is not an option. Is that not the way you are supposed to do it?


As for the boss patterns, yeah, that's how it was planned out. "Danmaku" basically translates to "curtain fire", aka, 5 zillionty bullets on the screen at once, and with that sub-genre of shmups, well, they're generally pretty blasted hard, but even when it seems that the screen is 99% filled with spiraling, shiny doom, there's still some way to dodge it entirely.

Any boss I make will generally always use attacks of that style.... it's the method I know how best to do, and I never see anyone ELSE doing it.... so they get alot of planning. Even Enduro's 2nd attack, the constant multicolor spray, took alot of planning. Cause, if I do it wrong, suddenly we have an attack that just isnt dodgeable at all, or is just harder to dodge than the fight requires (and this fight isnt supposed to be THAT bad).



As for those blocks, yeah, that's the way you're supposed to do it. *I* kept getting squashed BETWEEN them, if you can believe that one :P

smasher
05-17-2009, 01:06 PM
Tried this today. LOVED IT!!!! Very brutal, but super fun. I love challenging levels like these, because I'm super hardcore, and old school. This level is right up my alley. There's a couple of things I didn't like though. I thought the army men in the beginning looked really out of place, but that's just my opinion. Second, the part with the blocks that disappear the camera could use a little work, and those mag keys are unsightly. For the mag key thing all you have to do is make sure you use the same block turn the key invisible recapture it. When you you change the emitters you wont have to reposition each one. Just change the Item emitted. It should start where you put it originally. One part I loved is when I fell down and I saw arrows on the wall so I go there, and you smash me with a big compactor. Very funny. Just a great level all around.

could you give feedback on my level (mountain marathon) thanks

Bridget
05-20-2009, 07:33 PM
Tried this today. LOVED IT!!!! Very brutal, but super fun. I love challenging levels like these, because I'm super hardcore, and old school. This level is right up my alley. There's a couple of things I didn't like though. I thought the army men in the beginning looked really out of place, but that's just my opinion. Second, the part with the blocks that disappear the camera could use a little work, and those mag keys are unsightly. For the mag key thing all you have to do is make sure you use the same block turn the key invisible recapture it. When you you change the emitters you wont have to reposition each one. Just change the Item emitted. It should start where you put it originally. One part I loved is when I fell down and I saw arrows on the wall so I go there, and you smash me with a big compactor. Very funny. Just a great level all around.

could you give feedback on my level (mountain marathon) thanks


Hmm.... didnt know I could do that with captured objects. I'll give that a try to fix those stupid keys on the blocks.

Good ol' LBP, always more stuff to learn.....