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View Full Version : Demitters - New demitter switch added!!! 2010/03/10



rtm223
05-24-2009, 02:23 PM
A technique for dissolving anything, including the MM pre-made objects / spikes etc. Also used as a nifty, stress-free, puzzle room reset, for those times when reset logic is hurting your befuzzled mind. 100% free from all artifical colours, flavours and glitches :p

There are actually loads of uses for this i've found, but I'm only covered a couple in the demo. PSN: rtm223, level name "TECH DEMO - Demitters, Remitters & Dissolve Anything"

Comments / questions welcomed.

UPDATED 2009/07/05
Ok, so technically I haven't updated my tech demo, I was too lazy for that. What I've done is publish a second level with logic switches to make your life easier. They may not be the best designs in the world (especially if you don't like emitter logic) but they work and they are collectable.

edit - To clarify. There are 4 switches available. 2 are for demit / remit at will, and 2 are for reset (which is just a demit followed immediately by remit). The reason there are two for each is that the method has issues dealing with emitting objects at speed. Essentially, the piston is still moving when the emitter emits, so the object is emitted with a velocity. In some cases this will be fast enough to break things. Version 1 of the circuits does not account for this so is only useful for "solid" objects, where everything is glued together. The version 2 of the circuits is more complex, and completely solves the issue of fast emitting. 2 is the better circuit, 1 is the streamlined and easier to understand version.


Demit/Remit Switch 1 - allows you to demit / remit at will, using a directional input. This only works if you have a solid object (i.e everything glued together), see the level for what happens otherwise.
Demit/Remit Switch 2 - as above, but has a delay 0.1s included so that you can remit objects that have loose or loosely connected components in them
Reset Switch 1 - Does a Demit then a remit rapidly, allowing you to reset your object using a 1-shot input. Only if everything is glued together.
Reset Switch 2 - As above, but includes delays again.


The level is called "Demitter Switches - Free Logic Prizes", I think. The original tech demo also still exists. I will merge at some point.

Enjoy.


This was originally the big annoyance with the method. The circuits I have designed to control the system all have an initialiser, which prevents the demitter firing accidentally in create mode.

Edit: The one thing I forgot to mention: This is a great useful technique but there is one complication. As Objects emmited in create mode don't count as emmitted when you get to play mode, they also don't demit properly! You have to make sure you are paused and delete all before saving. It's a pain but not to bad as long as you bear it in mind. Also, once the area in question is completed you can switch off the emitter (set max at once to 0) until you are ready to publish. This is easier.

Dexiro
05-24-2009, 02:33 PM
nice :p

i'll be using this for my solid light thingy

you should try demitting a room and then remitting a variation of it,
could be used for some cool puzzles or making rooms easier/harder :)

rtm223
05-24-2009, 02:39 PM
The other day I scribbled down an outline for a soul reaver idea, where you could switch between the spectral and material realms at will which would mean an entire level where each room could be swapped out by the player.

This will probably never happen...

johnrulz77
05-24-2009, 02:48 PM
can you get a vid uploaded? or some pics?

DJLols
05-24-2009, 02:51 PM
If you made a Soul Reaver level with fully functional realm shifting, I'd have to LIVE in your level. o_o

Dexiro
05-24-2009, 03:02 PM
The other day I scribbled down an outline for a soul reaver idea, where you could switch between the spectral and material realms at will which would mean an entire level where each room could be swapped out by the player.

This will probably never happen...

I've never played soul reaver but i know exactly what you're talking about and that'd be so awesome if you could get it to work :p

Have you ever played Dim?
It's a small 2D game, and you have to switch between 2 slightly different dimensions to get past certain obstacles

I'm gonna try it out anyway :p
I'll post a demo if i can get it to work

rtm223
05-24-2009, 03:18 PM
John, there isn't much point in pictures or video, there isn't really anything visual about this, the description I put above pretty much covers it.


This sounds very similar to soul reaver, although that has things like grabbables are only grabbable / moveable in one realm, time stops in one of the realms, water is either deadly / non-existant.

The trick with realm or dimension-shifting would be to have the switches controlling it grabable and suspended in mid air or somewhere, so your sack cannot be in the way of the emitted objects. For multiplayer, you would want a grab switch with a require-all prox switch AND'd (to simulate all players plane shifting).

Dexiro
05-24-2009, 03:51 PM
We really need Mm to give us the impact switch :p

Then for multiplayer you could have a small pad that all the players have to stand on to switch dimensions

rtm223
05-24-2009, 04:40 PM
*slaps forehead*

Jeez, how did I not think of a pad you stand on. It's the most obvious way - and the portals in SR are actually pads on the floor... So the pad is there and nothing gets emitted too close to the edges or above it, all players have to be well within the edges of it, AND someone has to grab the floor right in the middle. Perfect. Bit of demitter remitter jiggery, bit of GLT, lots and lots of swearing whilst getting it working and voila: bob's your uncle! Now if I can just work out how to do swallowing souls and telekenisis in LBP, I'll be set...

If you do start having a go at this and fancy a bit of collaboration, let me know.

rtm223
05-25-2009, 07:39 PM
Just edited the OP with useful info, which I conveniently forgot t'other day.

phort
05-26-2009, 08:39 AM
That's such an evil puzzle. Failed it the first time on purpose by pulling the blocks down the stairs, but the 2nd and 3rd times were because of the puzzle making itself unsolvable :)

Anyway, good job. I wish there were a way to do it that didn't involve emitting the objects offscreen, because then you have to make sure that they don't cause trouble where ever they appear. I was thinking about doing something like that for "demitting" objects but i couldn't think of any uses where a creature brain wouldn't do just as well.

This does a cleaner job though, creature brains tend to always make a big ugly pile of objects before disappearing.

Burnvictim42
05-26-2009, 09:28 AM
thats pretty cool there, i have to say. Its a bummer the brain method wont work for point reasons, but thats probably what i'd use if i wanted to remit something, just BC moving the emitter could get messy for me =/

dkjestrup
05-26-2009, 10:39 AM
So like in LoZ: Link to the past, where you switch between the light and dark world?

rtm223
05-26-2009, 10:44 AM
Yep, brains are a much simpler way to go. But if you look around these forums, there are various threads on disolve anything or something similar, and creature brains always come up, and someone mentions that they aren't clean enough.

I've also used this for building veneer - sacky in the building, veneer disappears. Sacky leaves building, veneer reappears. If I did that with a creature brain you could just hover round the door and score 1000000 points! I also have a room which is reasonably large and a lot of stuff falls apart. At the end, if you haven't left the room you fall to your doom. For failure safety I need to redo the entire room and I'd need about 10 brains or a rediculous amount of disolve to clean up whats left in the room.

It is slightly fiddley to work with, and you have to design in an area to demit to, and those are quite big downsides.

Phort: I'm glad you "enjoyed" my puzzle! It's supposed to be evil anyway, else you wouldn't need a reset buton :p I was hoping everyone would go straight to the top after the bottom one fails, seems I was right :D

Night Angel
05-28-2009, 01:39 AM
I'll check this out sometime today.

Btw, there are two "s"s in dissolve

brnxblze
05-28-2009, 04:23 AM
Nice, I've never thought of doing that. Thanks :) .

rtm223
05-28-2009, 09:40 AM
Btw, there are two "s"s in dissolve
Gah, I hate you. That one gets me every time. Changed the OP accordingly but the level will have to wait until tonight.

brnxblze: It came about from a) me wanting an on/off switch for emmitters that would keep the object solid for the duration of the "on" signal and b)trying to work out how the magician "teleports" you to the wastelands. I think this is the answer, unless anyone else knows better, after all, he is a "master of emmitters".

rtm223
07-05-2009, 10:51 PM
Bumpetty bump - Update time. See edited OP for details.

Deftmute
07-06-2009, 03:52 AM
i loved the first version.. have tried and failed to utilize successfully the tech within (the machine worked, the thing i used it for sucked.) and look forward to seeing what smarter creators can do with it.

i still want to make a level thats just a room that you change the contents of through play
(has someone already done this?) but i just go blank when i try to start.

Waldo
07-06-2009, 04:40 AM
The one thing I forgot to mention: This is a great useful technique but there is one complication. As Objects emmited in create mode don't count as emmitted when you get to play mode, they also don't demit properly! You have to make sure you are paused and delete all before saving. It's a pain but not to bad as long as you bear it in mind. Also, once the area in question is completed you can switch off the emitter (set max at once to 0) until you are ready to publish. This is easier.

I'm still getting that problem. I used that demitted technique for my gate in my new level. What did you do to fix that?

comphermc
07-06-2009, 05:06 AM
Edit: nevermind, you have solved the problem. I played the rest of the level :p

Hey rtm. I just finally played your demitter level, and I came up with a solution for the problem of things attached to strings. I just got as far as pulling the switch and watching it not work quite right, so if you went on to remedy the problem, then ignore this post.

Anywho, you had the problem of the emitter moving too fast when it emitted the thing - at one point I suggested a delay of some kind. I thought you had the solution already, so I didn't explain myself very well. This is a picture of what I came up with:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5981/aphoto1b.jpg

Looks strikingly similar to yours, eh? Those are indeed ropes, not rods. Anyways, the emitter is still attached to the left piston, and there are still keys on the dark matter sections. The difference is that the output is not to the emitter, but to a directional switch. The directional switch is attached to the piston on the right, which has a different color key and switch. This switch is a "once" switch, which is attached to the emitter. Both pistons are set to .1 timing.

When you pull the switch, it makes the left piston go up or down. When it is in the space that does not have a key, the right piston will drop down. When the left piston re-triggers, the right piston goes back up. The right piston goes down far enough to leave the "once" zone, so it retriggers it, emitting the object from the now stationary emitter block.

It works without fail. There is no swinging, nothing. It emits perfectly. It's hard to explain, but I have a feeling you'll get it. If you still need some explanation, I can send you the object if you add me on PSN.

---I guess I should finish the level next time, eh?

rtm223
07-06-2009, 09:44 AM
@comphermic. Getting past 1/4 of the way through would be a start :p

-edit. Actually took the time to look at your solution (I use mobile view at work and it funks up on images). Yep, very similar, just with a piston timer. From the description I'd assume that the main piston would be moving slowish (by that I mean >0.1s). Not that it makes much difference.

@deftmute. I have ideas for such a thing, also for a teleporter of sorts (demit one landscape and remit another, in such a way as to give the illusion of changing location around the sackboy). No death teleport would be nice IMO.

@waldo. The circuits in the second level get around the previous issues but having in initialiser. This is just a prox switch, linked to a permanent switch. Before the permanent switch fires, the demitter won't do any emitting so you are safe in create mode. Unless you trigger the prox :p In general it's a lot more stable and a lot easier to work with this way. There are 4 variants of the control system depending on your needs, all are prize bubbles in the second level, and the level should demonstrate which one you will need to use. Any more questions, or if you want the switches editable, let me know.

horwitzer
10-29-2009, 12:30 AM
how do you de-emitt something?? do you just make it re emit somewhere where it wont be seen???

rtm223
10-29-2009, 12:36 AM
Yes. *add some chars*

rtm223
11-30-2009, 09:03 PM
Updated the Demiter Switches level (not the tech demo level), with a couple of new designs featuring improved response times and lower thermo than before, although I think I've fudged up slightly on the reset switch. I'll check it and update later if need be.

Rogar
11-30-2009, 10:51 PM
Nice. The timing looks a bit scary, did you have any difficulty tweaking the ranges and times to prevent any jiggle?

rtm223
11-30-2009, 10:57 PM
Uh, no. It just worked. I anticipated some fiddliness of the righthand piston (the one that triggers the emitting, but I just made it and it works. Must say I was rather chuffed with that lol. I also didn't expect to be able to set the reset switch timer to 0.1s but that worked as well. All in all it was a very luck-fuelled create session :p

The instantaneous nature of one-shot driven emitters is the key I think.

Rogar
11-30-2009, 11:21 PM
I was more worried about the piston speed. If the left piston takes 0.1s to move, and the emitter is triggered too soon, you got a painting dangling halfway.

Cool that it worked so easily. Can we draw the conclusion here that 0.1s is the clock cycle of the switch calculations? That is, every 0.1 seconds, all switches are reevaluated? That would explain why it was so simple. (Not to detract from your brilliance with switches, of course! :p)

rtm223
11-30-2009, 11:32 PM
I was more worried about the piston speed. If the left piston takes 0.1s to move, and the emitter is triggered too soon, you got a painting dangling halfway.

Nope, because the piston on the left moves first. That triggers the emitting and THEN the right hand piston moves. This is how I improved the latency - both switches emit before the emitter moves, rather than move it, wait a bit for it to settle and then emit.


Cool that it worked so easily. Can we draw the conclusion here that 0.1s is the clock cycle of the switch calculations? That is, every 0.1 seconds, all switches are reevaluated? That would explain why it was so simple. (Not to detract from your brilliance with switches, of course! :p)

No, it's more complex than that. If you chain up a sequence of direction pistons (one feeding into the next and so on) all set to 0.1s, you will find that the propogation time is 0.05s.

When using one-shots, propogation time for chained emitters in instantaneous, but this is not true of dissolve (thanks to treas and mnimmo respectively for those bits of info). Similarly it is not instantaneous for flippers. I haven't checked the timings on those properly yet.

In this case, the emitter seems to happily trigger halfway through the movement of the righthand piston, which is a quarter of 0.2s. I did not expect this to be possible - I thought emitters were keyed into a 10Hz clock. Maybe it's triggering at a 0.05s interval and then waiting for the 0.1s. I have no idea.


The whole timing and synchronisation is still slightly blurry to me. I've only started looking deeply into it in the last couple of weeks and it's too hard to get definitive timings in the sub 0.1s range.

piggabling
12-01-2009, 02:09 AM
Man you are just great! Keep up your magically perplexing ways! They amaze me!

And by the way, I'm waiting for a new, full blown level from you! And even if it one is not coming, I am still going to dream of it! :p

comphermc
12-01-2009, 03:03 AM
I checked it out, and remain impressed by these. It sort of reminds me of of my [very immature] take on demitters way back in the day, when you first planted the idea in my head (what with the double-pistons and all).

I didn't notice any problems with the demitters, and they seem to work great.

The OP has some conflicting info, though - I'm sure you just can't be bothered.

SteveBigGuns
12-06-2009, 03:49 PM
Ive tried this technique before, but had problems with people joining after the initial emit. When a new player joins (even after passing a closed played gate) the level would reset and the emitted object became permanent as it would if the game was unpaused and it emmited before going into play mode.

I decided to use brains connected to string instead as its reliable, although the score showing after they are destroyed ruins the effect. Maybe pointless/soundless brain destruction would be a nice addition to the game.

rtm223
12-06-2009, 05:51 PM
I went into two levels with demitters in them, triggered the first emission, invited comphermc and then demitted it. It worked fine.

Can you clarify if this was indeed the scenario you describe, because it all seems to be sound for me.

comphermc
12-06-2009, 06:27 PM
Regarding the sounds, SBG, you can put a speaker somewhere way off screen, on whatever the string is connected to, and set it to play on destroy. I think you may do this already, but I can't be sure.

But, yeah - we didn't encounter any problems with the demitters in online play when someone joined late. The only thing I can think of is that you demitted the object with a permanent switch...? Perms don't like level resets, y'know.

SteveBigGuns
12-07-2009, 06:39 AM
I connect string to the brains, but it would be nice to turn the sound and score gain off. I just copied your level and it uses the exact same concept as the one I tried out. All the settings were the same. Ill have to try it out again to see if it still permanently emits. I still have the same object and the settings look fine. Its still used it in my level, but has the brains atached by string as a backup.

Back after doing some experimenting. I just tested part of my level that I captured and placed in another. It doesnt have the issue anymore. Also I tested the same setup used to determine why it was emitting permanently and it didnt react the same whem my friend joind me. Maybe my profile was bugged somehow?

rtm223
12-07-2009, 11:57 AM
Could well be it used to do that and it's now patched. Who knows? Thanks for bringing it up though, it's something I would never ever have thought to test :p

SteveBigGuns
12-07-2009, 03:06 PM
Its good to know the level wont break if its incorporated into it. I havent considered using it due to the issues, but now I may if its the optimum technique to achive what I want. Thanks for making me aware the problems no longer occur XD.

rtm223
03-10-2010, 02:19 AM
OK, based upon the implications of Aya's recent discovery regarding emitters, it is now the case that objects emitted in create mode are still associated with the same object in play mode. This is actually great as it means that demiters are far less troublesome to use. If you do accidentally trigger them in create mode it shouldn't matter.

More importantly, I can announce a new demitter switch. The "one time demitter". In essence, if you have something that you want to dissolve and you never need to emit it again, you can use this switch. It looks like this:

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13811&d=1268187499

So, you configure it to max at once=1 and infinite lifetime. You then hook up a 1-shot input and trigger it. This will emit the object in your level, preferably in the place you want it to be. Then move your "switch" elsewhere in the level, and use the one-shot signal to dimit the object in play mode.


So, essentially it's 1-time demit logic, without any logic. I haven't added this to the tech demo, or the level... hopefully you can work out how to construct it for yourself... right? ;)

Incinerator22
03-10-2010, 02:24 AM
Nice. That's aya's discovery, or do you mean something else?

rtm223
03-10-2010, 02:30 AM
No, Aya's discovery is potentially more awesome than the extra layers glitch. It's the big news of the day, the talk of the town... How have you not heard about it.????

Incinerator22
03-10-2010, 02:36 AM
Just saw it. Bigger than the layer glitch, cow glitch, and invisible material glitch combined :D

comphermc
03-10-2010, 03:18 AM
So, essentially it's 1-time demit logic, without any logic. I haven't added this to the tech demo, or the level... hopefully you can work out how to construct it for yourself... right? ;)

Wait, wait, wait, wait... slow down! Start over...

:p

---

That is awesome, though, rtm. So you can verify that anything emitted in create mode counts in play mode? Geeze, this is awesome. Thanks to Aya and rtm!

Edit: Okay, I verified for myself. Super-cool.

rtm223
03-10-2010, 10:18 AM
Edit: Okay, I verified for myself. Super-cool.

Isn't it just? I had noticed that rewind no longer screwwed with the emitter association a little while back, but I never thought to check whether entering playmode was fixed up too. It really does make emitters much, much safer / easier to work with now. In many cases there is pretty much no need to block them off, although I probably still will be doing that anyway, out of habit :)

jwwphotos
03-10-2010, 01:18 PM
wow... this is an awesome find!! Good work mysterious purple ninja type guy! ;) ..and thanks to Aya as well!

rtm223
03-10-2010, 01:20 PM
Oh teh noes! I just noticed one of my stickers is missing in the photo I posted :(

Not nearly poiple enough!

I'm not even really a big fan of purple, if I'm honest with you...

jwwphotos
03-10-2010, 01:23 PM
Hmmmm were you around Morgana recently? She sorta absorbs purple. I think it's that wand of hers. Sorta like standby mode.

rtm223
03-10-2010, 01:27 PM
Nah, I probably touched a paintenator, they typically ruin my costume.... But that's the price you pay for looking this good I guess :rolleyes:

Aya042
03-10-2010, 04:59 PM
OK, based upon the implications of Aya's recent discovery regarding emitters...

Oddly enough, I'd posted (http://forums.littlebigworkshop.com/lbp/board/message?board.id=creationgen&message.id=41595#M41595) a very similar-looking technique (which quite frankly I thought I'd 'borrowed' from your demitter level) on LBW about 10 days ago:-




Create an off-screen platform of dark matter which is large enough to hold the object you want to dissolve.
Attach an emitter to the platform, and configure it to emit the object onto the platform. Set the Lifetime to ∞ and Max Emitted At Once to 1.
Attach a one-shot switch to the emitter, and trigger it once.
Take the object it just emitted, and move it to where you want it. You can glue it to other objects, attach it with any connector, change its materials, or size if you need to.
The next time the emitter is triggered, that object will vanish, and reappear at the offscreen platform.



Indeed, I thought that was the technique you were ultimately trying to imply in your level, i.e. exploiting Max Emitted At Once to make stuff disappear, or rather to move out of the way.

Of course, what I wasn't aware of until very recently, was that this retaining of emitter association was only true as of a certain patch, which presumably wasn't the case at the time you made the level.

The thing that I didn't notice at the time I tested this out 10 days ago, was that changing the material type actually had no effect on the thermo - meaning that for simple things like dissolving a large boulder, you may as well combine the two techniques, by making the original emitted object a block of DM, then reshape it, change its material, and put it where you like - then you don't even take a thermo hit for the material type.

Anyways, it's clearly now the best way to dissolve anything, since you can actually glue or attach it to other objects, which you can't do with the creature brain method.

So I don't want to see any more creature brains being exploited for the same purpose - creature brains have feelings too, y'know. :)

rtm223
03-10-2010, 05:07 PM
Indeed, I thought that was the technique you were ultimately trying to imply in your level, i.e. exploiting Max Emitted At Once to make stuff disappear, or rather to move out of the way.

Of course, what I wasn't aware of until very recently, was that this retaining of emitter association was only true as of a certain patch, which presumably wasn't the case at the time you made the level.

It's the same basic technique. TBH, conceptually it's not much, but back in the day getting it all to work so that your initial emit was never triggered in create mode was a bit of a faff. When I first did this (a while before I published the level) I'd been creating for about a month and the loss of association was a right pain.

The demit-remit reset technique is still fantasically useful as it is often the easiest way to reset something complex. And now the association loss is patched, the one time dissolve is so much better than before as you say, due to the fact you can edit it, glue it etc. Plus, I prefer your version of this - emit and then move the object elsewhere, rather than emit and then move the emitter :)

Sehven
03-11-2010, 10:25 PM
This is good stuff. Now that the association in play mode has been fixed, it's WAY easier to work with. I always avoided demitter/remitter use because it was a pain to set up and super easy to screw it up, but using a one-time demitter to get rid of something without a creature brain is awesome. You could even combine it with Aya's technique to make the demittable object cost zero thermo (though I'm still hesitant to use his thermo tricks).

As for a Soul Reaver type level (you mentioned in the much older posts in this thread), it might be interesting to try it that way. My own Soul Reaver level (not really Soul Reaver, but inspired by it) ran out of therm really quickly, so I didn't get as far as getting the shifting between planes working much. You die and shift to the spectral realm, but then never shift back (It basically functions as the intro for the main levels, but I haven't worked on them much yet). Anyway, I went with actually moving parts of the level around, rather than demitting/remitting. Might be interesting to try it your way, though, but I'd be worried about running out of thermo even more quickly than I did in the first level. Wouldn't having two versions of each room eat up huge amounts of thermo? Maybe I'll use a mixture of the two ideas: having some things move and other things demit/remit.

Rogar
03-12-2010, 09:19 AM
This is a good week for LBP science! :)

Edit: @Sehven: that sounds like the perfect situation to fool the thermo in. You basically have two levels, only one of which will be in play at one time, so really the thermo should only be counting one of them. But the thermo is dumb, so you have to "educate" (fool) it.

rtm223
03-12-2010, 09:55 AM
Wouldn't having two versions of each room eat up huge amounts of thermo? Maybe I'll use a mixture of the two ideas: having some things move and other things demit/remit.

That's what I was thinking about it. Either just create the emitted / demitted version as a small technical showcase (which, in honesty, would have blown minds back then) or have certain elements emitted / demitted, certain elementsthat move on pistsons / bolts (to mimic the stretching you get in the game as you shift) and some things that freeze in time.

I'm not really that interested in doing that now though tbh.