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View Full Version : UPDATED: Like Hamster Wheels? You'll love my Wheeley Good Switches [vid]



rtm223
06-05-2009, 08:35 PM
EDIT 2009-07-06 - Added music to the level :) but more importantly, new wheel added: the high and low thresholding wheel, not seen in the video, has now been added. This wheel will switch on the output if you go fast enough, but if you go too fast, the output goes off. Yay for analogue control, now go play my level :p

Original Post:

So, I've seen a lot of wheel based switches in LBP now. Nearly all of them come down to mag switches linked to a counter or decrementer. X turns = a permenant output. Generally they can be tricked by flicking the mag key back and forth to simulate many turns. It's pretty basic stuff (no offense to anyone usig them, but yeah...)

This is something very very different.

PSN: rtm223
Level name: Wheeley Good Switches
Icon: My Avatar.

If you are not convinced enough to go and play, this video is some of what is on display. There are some really nice subtle mechanics going on here so please take the time to check out the level - you get a much better experience if you actually play with them.


Edit - Many thanks to Ygg_Barasil for tihs lovely video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSrYWwIUcqY

Many many cyberhugs go out to ygg_barasil!

The objects in the video:

1: A speed thresholding switch. When you turn the wheel fast enough, the output goes on. You slow it down and the output goes off. The version on display is V2 (I'm actually amazed that V1 even works tbh). Works both clockwise and anticlock.

2: A speed coupling switch. The speed you turn the wheel is outputted as a speed signal and exactly matched in a remote location. There is a slight delay between control and output, but I'm really proud that I got the resting positions (after both finish moving) to match up exactly 1:1 as well - you would not believe how difficult that little touch was. This only works clockwise, but the wheel will not allow you to turn it anticlock :)

3: same as 2, but with speed multipliers.

4: A hybrid of the 1 and 2. Outputs a speed signal and a thresholded on/off signal, with built in hysteresis (see edit below), from the same wheel. This has now superceded V2 threshold switch as it is simpler and more stable.

4. This one is the daddy. It's a three way directional switch. You turn it anticlockwise, the drawbridge comes down. You turn it clockwise the drawbridge goes up. You stop the wheel, the drawbridge stops moving. Nice, yeah? Well, when the drawbridge gets to the bottom, you can no longer turn the wheel anticlock. When it gets to the top, you can no longer turn it clockwise, so it really simulates the feel that the wheel and bridge are physically linked.



Edit, sorry, hysteresis: A simple example of hysteresis is that you have to increase the speed to 6 to turn on, and decrease it to 4 to turn off. This way, if you hover around the turning point (around 5) you won't get a flickering effect as you flit back and forth past it.

dawesbr
06-05-2009, 08:46 PM
Definitions of hysteresis on the Web:

the lagging of an effect behind its cause;

Now that that's out of the way (o_0) I'd just like to say well done my good syah. One of the first things I tried to create (a fool was I!) was a hamster wheel you turn to move a vehicle. I especially like your "daddy". Very nice. Is it collectable?

rtm223
06-05-2009, 08:57 PM
Sorry, hysteresis. A simple example of hysteresis is that you have to move the speed to 6 to turn on, and down to 4 to turn off. This way, if you hover around the turning point, you won't get flickering effect.

Dawes: Thanks a lot. At the moment, these are my toys and I'm very very proud of them. I won't be giving them out willy nilly.

But...

Both the 3 way (stop sniggering) and the original prototype of the on /off switch feature in my upcoming level (god I'm sick of saying that, I want it finished). Any interesting mechanics I put in that level will be available as collectables, but they will be hidden away, so you'll have to hunt for them :)

The speed switch, I don't have a specific use for. At the moment I would be willing to give it to someone who can find a really good use for it. Something mindblowing and preferably puzzle-based. Bear in mind it is a flywheel as well, so can keep turning for some time and outputting a speed signal after you get out. And that a sped signal can be pumped into lights.

edit - actually, if you have a particularly good use for any of them I'll probably be happy to see them used. But I'll be picky about it :p

Aurongel
06-05-2009, 09:33 PM
I've already implemented this idea into my current mega-project...

Mastered the whole mechanism a few weeks ago...

I'm currently using this in a 2 player puzzle of mine

rtm223
06-05-2009, 09:35 PM
oooohh nice. Which version wheel are you using?

Ygg_Barasil
06-05-2009, 09:40 PM
Nice work there, rtm! I enjoyed the "old-fashion lower the bridge" -switch :D

If DV-quality is good enough, I can film it...

rtm223
06-05-2009, 09:48 PM
If it's better than my camera phone then it'll do. Thanks for the offer.

dawesbr
06-05-2009, 10:28 PM
rtm, you should use the drawbridge one in a two player mechanic. Have a ledge above the wheel that can only be reached when the drawbridge is at 45 degrees. You need one player to turn the wheel, let the other across, then turn the wheel to 45 degrees so the other guy can walk up.

rtm223
06-06-2009, 07:02 PM
This could be done with a normal 3-way is the problem, it is mostly for visual appeal. What might make it more interesting is to introduce some notion of speed in there. The wheel is difficult to move so if you had to do it fast, this would give some added value to it.

Ygg_barasil has just provided me with a video of the level (see first post), so many thanks to him. Also, check you inbox ygg_barasil.

In other exciting news, I may (and thats a big may there) have just dreamt up a way to do... A 2 way speed controlled hamster wheel. At which point Dawesbr's "Sackboy Hamster Wheel Actuated Movitron" (the "SHWAM", emphasis on the "SH", please) may really become a reality... But for now, it's pubtime.

snowflakecat
06-07-2009, 02:30 AM
nice!

If you're interested, you can see that it's also possible to do this with any number of thresholds using my Analog to Digital converters. The benefit of using the A-to-D converter is that coupling to wheels of different circumference isn't necessary. With Larryjoe701's differentiator version, updates can happen very fast. (instead of a speed input, hollow out the outer layer wheel, relink the feedback mag switch to the inner layer wheel, and move sackboy inside the outer layer wheel. Then tweak the strengths accordingly.) The downside is that to save space, the differentiated distance bar must be made circular.

Next time I'm on I'll be sure to check out your implementation! Nice video btw =P

rtm223
06-07-2009, 09:46 AM
Thanks snofwlakecat


If you're interested, you can see that it's also possible to do this with any number of thresholds using my Analog to Digital converters.

I'll certainly have to check out the A-D converter you are talking about, I assume you have a level uploaded, or is it in your junkyard?


The benefit of using the A-to-D converter is that coupling to wheels of different circumference isn't necessary.
This I don't understand.

Larryjoes implementation sounds quite complex. My speed version is actually very very simple (components-wise) and the hybrid version of the speed and threshold is actually just a speed sensor with the output pumped into a speed comparator circuit, so I could easilly add multiple comparators for multiple thresholds. EDIT - OMG I just had a cool idea (*scampers off to have another play*)

And my updates do already happen very fast :(

dawesbr
06-07-2009, 09:55 AM
Haha, I just watched the video, they both look great and seem to work perfectly! Nice work!

Sage
06-07-2009, 03:22 PM
I know I should just go and play the level but i'm kind of lazy right now >_<. But I have a question, do the wheels work turning both ways or just right?

rtm223
06-07-2009, 03:52 PM
The first one (the on/off switch) works both ways.

The speed ones will only work clockwise, but there is a mechanism meaning that they won't turn anticlockwise at all - this is to help with it matching up perfectly.

The 3-way switch that operates the drawbridge works both ways (it kinda has to else it wouldn't be a 3-way :p)

You don't really get the full effect from the video - go and play with them next time you are online.

I'm gonna update the demo later today with some extras, based on the ideas snowflakecat gave me

rtm223
06-07-2009, 05:50 PM
Just added a new wheel device to the level :) The high and low thresholding wheel has now been added. This wheel will switch on the output if you go fast enough, but if you go too fast the output goes off. Yay for analogue control, now go play my level :p

Also, someone has stuck a 1* rating and a "rubbish" tag on my level. Probably because they wanted free prizes... This I find amusing for some reason.

Is there a way you can find out who's hearted you. I appear to have 6 creator hearts without ever making a level, which is pretty neat. Also, someone hearted my lockbox, which is just bizarre

Ygg_Barasil
06-07-2009, 07:18 PM
Also, someone hearted my lockbox, which is just bizarre

LOL, same thing happened to my password-level. It was a H4H'er. A quick research on yours, and it's the one who left a comment on your level that hearted it :D

rtm223
06-07-2009, 07:34 PM
Oh, that's sad. I thought someone liked my lockbox :( Well I like my lockbox and that's good enough for me!

I assume you just looked at comments -> found a H4Her -> looked at his hearted levels. There isn't a better way of finding out?

Ygg_Barasil
06-07-2009, 07:42 PM
I assume you just looked at comments -> found a H4Her -> looked at his hearted levels. There isn't a better way of finding out?

I know no other way then that. It would be nice to see who has hearted you (especially as creator), but I guess that will make one big list for those who has ~10k hearts...

Sage
06-07-2009, 08:53 PM
Very interesting i'll be sure to check it out to see it for myself.

Incinerator22
06-08-2009, 10:07 PM
cmon you really should give them out as prizes. If I were you and I didm't want people to copy that concept I would give them out as prizes but cover all the switches and gears with dark matter to keep it a secret.

Alexxerth
06-08-2009, 10:44 PM
Then they could just place them in thier level and go to remove the dark matter its not that hard. Although this one person i saw had some weird thing that glowed and stuff and i put it in my lv and there were no mehanics or even lights! so i was completly con fused cause i ripped it apart it was just al one material not even stickers!

rtm223
06-08-2009, 10:45 PM
cmon you really should give them out as prizes. If I were you and I didm't want people to copy that concept I would give them out as prizes but cover all the switches and gears with dark matter to keep it a secret.
Anyone know what word is missing from this post? :p

Not that it would make any difference, whats the point of having it if you can't pick apart the mechanisms? That's no fun. And if I disfigure it all by covering everything up, people won't be able to just plug and play with them either.

To respond to the comment you left on the level: I'm not fussed about ratings anyway and if I was, 4*s isn't bad. Ooooohhh... was it you that rated it 1* and "rubbish" - that made me chuckle, I'd love to know who that was :D

Sorry, I'm sticking to my original plan of making them available at a later date, regardless of what this does to my popularity.

Incinerator22
06-10-2009, 01:13 AM
I rated your level 5 stars, its just annoying to me that you didnt give the wheels out as prizes or even gave a hint as to how you made them :(
you said they're simple, but really you're just rubbing them in our faces. It's cruel! Im making a switch tutorial level with your basic delay, and, or, xor, permanent, multitask, counter switches ect., but they're mostly just simple switches with sophisticated names and I need some more complex switches! I'd definitely give you credit for it

rtm223
06-16-2009, 12:15 AM
Thought I'd add a response to crashdance's comments on the level, as it's easier here than on PSN:

I'm pretty sure what you saw in your photos was the comparator circuitry for the upper and lower threshold wheel. Essentially the following equation:

DoorOpen = (speed > lowThresh) AND (NOT(speed > highThresh))

I'm not sure if you saw that much that is useful though, most of the cool stuff is contained in hidden switches and connectors inside the wheels themselves. If you're planning on reverse engineering them (this was half the point of producing the level in the first place), then feel free to post your solutions here.


The actual speed thresholders work like this: You have a wheel turning at constant speed, then a bar on the layer in front of this which rotates in the opposide direction, but faster. You connect a speed input to the fast motor bolt. Depending on whether the input is fast enough, the bar will rotate clockwise or anticlockwise. Then put blockers so the movement of the bar is limited and it either points left or right. A mag key on the bar and a mag switch on one of the blockers gives a TRUE/FALSE comparison. Of course, you need to obtain the speed input first...

You can also put an on/off input into the thresholder, to convert between an on/off and directional signal.

SupaSack34
10-22-2009, 08:26 PM
I am completely baffled on how to made these,nice work!

Sunrise_Moon
10-24-2009, 09:42 PM
I am completely baffled on how to made these,nice work!

Please don't bump old threads.

comphermc
10-24-2009, 10:42 PM
Lol, well since it's been bumped already: I am stumped as well. I know how he does a few of them, but the multiplier wheels are an enigma...

BSprague
10-24-2009, 10:54 PM
Lol, well since it's been bumped already: I am stumped as well. I know how he does a few of them, but the multiplier wheels are an enigma...
I'd think it would work identically to the simpler one's, just with a different output. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it though, but since we already know how the simpler ones work, it doesn't seem like a stretch to say that all that is changing is the output. Feel free to correct me though. :)

comphermc
10-24-2009, 11:17 PM
Nope, he said it's completely different from the others. Not sure what else you could do...!

Incinerator22
10-26-2009, 08:19 PM
I kinda see how rude I was way, way back then... lol. My apologies.

But on a separate note, in the post you say the icon of the level is in your avatar. I don't think people will have an easy time finding kittyfists :p

Rogar
10-26-2009, 10:45 PM
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it though, but since we already know how the simpler ones work

We do? I had a look at the actual level, and I got a new theory. I think it would work, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about it. :p

rtm223
10-26-2009, 10:54 PM
Oh hell yes, you can multiquote over multiple threads. Awesome.


Please don't bump old threads.
Please don't tell people what to do with my thread ;)


I kinda see how rude I was way, way back then... lol. My apologies.
Water waaaaay under the bridge mate. I was never that bothered at the time anyway. Don't worry about it.


since we already know how the simpler ones work, it doesn't seem like a stretch to say that all that is changing is the output. Feel free to correct me though. :)

I've published solutions to two of the "simpler" ones - the basic threshold and the three way. They work in completely different ways.... Which one were you thinking of to adapt to a speed switch?


We do? I had a look at the actual level, and I got a new theory. I think it would work, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about it. :p

Why wouldn't you be allowed to talk about it? This isn't fight club...

BSprague
10-26-2009, 11:21 PM
I've published solutions to two of the "simpler" ones - the basic threshold and the three way. They work in completely different ways.... Which one were you thinking of to adapt to a speed switch?
I figured that the whole setup was the same, but instead of a three-way a switch, any movement on the wheel would pull a directional two-way switch, which would move a piston with a magnetic key closer to a magnetic key switch with a speed setting, and this magnetic key switch controlled the wheel speed. A lack of motion on the wheel from the player would cause the two-way directional switch to switch back, and the other wheel would slow down and stop as the piston moved further from the magnetic key switch.

Rogar
10-26-2009, 11:48 PM
Well, it's your secret tech, innit? :)

My latest theory is to build a second wheel which is driven by a speed magswitch. If you can control the corresponding key precise enough to have the second wheel follow the player wheel, you can use that output to create every switch in your demo. I gave it a shot just now, it somewhat works, but it keeps over- and undershooting. Hell of a job tweaking the thing, I'm sure.

Cigar?

rtm223
10-26-2009, 11:51 PM
I gave it a shot just now, it somewhat works, but it keeps over- and undershooting. Hell of a job tweaking the thing, I'm sure.

Cigar?

Get it working fully and you get one.

Tip: the speed switch only works in one direction. It will not let you go in the wrong direction.

Rogar
10-27-2009, 12:08 AM
Get it working fully and you get one.

If I get it working fully, I won't need one. :p

Anyway, I'm just curious, and in it for the educational value. If I ever needed a switch like this, I'd want to build it myself anyway. But these kind of threads are really good for giving you different perspectives and new ideas.

Like this:


I figured that the whole setup was the same, but instead of a three-way a switch, any movement on the wheel would pull a directional two-way switch, which would move a piston with a magnetic key closer to a magnetic key switch with a speed setting, and this magnetic key switch controlled the wheel speed. A lack of motion on the wheel from the player would cause the two-way directional switch to switch back, and the other wheel would slow down and stop as the piston moved further from the magnetic key switch.

I'm not sure this is what is being said here at all, but what can you do with a magnetic switch set to speed and two keys? ... min and max functions! Cool! :)

Edit: It hit me when I was brushing my teeth: the two wheels are coupled! Now I understand what you meant by fly wheel! :D

Incinerator22
10-31-2009, 04:25 AM
I think I know how to do the 3-way directional one.... Is there an invisible arrow on a hidden cog behind the wheel? No one else will know what I mean but if that's how you did it you'll know what I mean :)

Littlebigdude805
10-31-2009, 04:28 AM
ok this has been bothering me, how do you make a wheel that only runs in one direction?

rtm223
11-16-2009, 12:37 PM
Forgot to mention, this is now copyable.

Think I've used the MGS, Monster and History packs in it though, so you'll need those to use it.

Enjoy.

.