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View Full Version : Yes, use F4F Subterranean Setbacks ** Sackies 2009 Nominee - Best Level! **



rtm223
08-12-2009, 06:34 PM
Subterranean Setbacksrtm223
[Puzzler / Platformer - 1 Player Only] Sackboy's stuck in a run-down sewer and it looks like things are only going to get worse! Guide him through the perils and pitfalls that lie beneath LittleBigPlanet and get him home in time for tea!
all


Update - 2009/20/10 - Video!!!!
Stumbled upon this on youtube. Alright I say "stumbled", I was googling myself and it cam up :p Anyway, thanks muchly to chimpanzee for awesome video footage :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZyAY-EMi7U&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYZtZYaHEY&feature=player_embedded


So this has taken me around 4 months total to create and it's my first level. It's a toughy, but I've tried to make it as rounded an experience as possible (not just a series of illogical obstacles) and a fully immersive experience. You should also find it hard but fair, with a bit of eye candy and unique gameplay here and there to distract you from your constant respawning :)

Update - 2009/08/30 - Added Prizes
That's right folks, I finally got around to adding prizes to the level. So far, the following is available:


Randomised Light Controllers
Crushers
Sneak Sensor
Collapsing Vent Scene
Collapsing Stairway Scene
Lift Door Logic
Wheeley Good Thresholder :D


If you can think of anything else I should add, please say. I curently can't add anything to do with the tenticle. I'm not even sure if I want to. But something has gone wrong and I realyl can't edit or change or do anything with it without it breaking...




http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1029&d=1250106887
Those sewers really are run-down, y'know

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1030&d=1250106985
Sacky finds a elevator... But the power's out - oh that old chestnut, eh?

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1031&d=1250106999
Here are some caves, inexplicably on fire

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1034&stc=1&d=1250111459
Could this be the generator you need? But getting it started wheeley isn't gonna be that simple :p





There are also quite a few points combos to be had - carefully placed around hazards for maximum death and to reward only the most fleet footed (pawwed? IDK - Purple ninja's got hooves) of gadders. And over 30, yes 30, secret points stashes to be found by the explorers amongst you.

I'll take feedback on any aspect of the level, and look to improve anything I can. Things in particular I'm interested in:
Anything that feels unfair
Awkward plane****ing / layers
Awkward camera angles
Grammatical / spelling errors - there's been a few flagged up, they really bug me but I suck at proofreading my own work.
I also really need some help with the ending. Visually it's the weakest point of the level and that just won't do :(


Known issues
There is one serious issue that I know about: Near the "bridge", there is a section that should respawn. It may not if you are very very unlucky. If this happens, run to the checkpoint and back again. This will fix the issue and you can continue. Otherwise it's level breaking :(



A even newer note on F4F
Now the level is pretty much stable, I'll go back to my normal stance of doing Feedback for Free (whereby I comment and criticise and generally pick faults in other people's levels, and don't expect anything in return). So if I've commented on your level, then there is no obligation to play or comment on this. If you do play and feel like giving feedback then please go ahead, I'm still looking to improve the level so any input is welcome, and if you are do F4F I'll certainly be willing to feedback on your level :)


Scores
Roanoake has top score with ~24K I just tried to beat that and got ~32K (didn't post it, I don't wanna be top). I think max score is ~35-40K now I've looked at it properly. You people need to try harder with your scores. Do it, play my level over and over and over until you get over 30K :)


Well, I've had my release week now and had a bloody good time of it. I don't really understand how things went as well as they did, but thank you to everyone who played and gave their advice :)


As much for my sanity as anything else (also to prove that I do listen to you lovely people)

Fixed a buggy GLT in a secret area
Improved camera angles in Pumping Room
reduce height of wall at final tree.
added level close post
fix invisible gas issue
improved respawn issue on falling vent.
Added new sounds - ooooh, can you work out where?
Tweaked the camera and text in the rats to hopefully make things clearer.
Enlarged the "safe zone" after the rats so it is actually safe :p
fix the nasty fire at the top of the maze.
Improved planeshifting issue after generator.
Added bonus hints on the rats after 3 failures
Completely remade part of the caves.
Blocked off two routes to see my logic :grr:
Added fire to Trindall's hole
Slowed down the crushers and increased the "open" phase
slowed down the timings on the Pump room
Fixed the tracking camera after the rats
changed lifespan of rats from infinate
All checkpoints from the start of the caves to the end of the maze now vanish (in one way or another) to prevent retriggering.
Filled MiltonTPS's crack with fire ;)
Added some prizes
Removed the wall :(
Fixed the issue with the visible dark matter

Still to do:

hide sensors on tentacle - I don't tihnk this is possible.
Replace the wall with something better.
Fix doors at top of lift - why oh why does something have to break every time...

CCubbage
08-12-2009, 07:33 PM
Nice! I'll check it out tonight. Sounds like my kind of content.

Once the level is open you may want to do some warning so the correct people get into it. With Destiny (which can get pretty frustrating to a noob) I put the title "Destiny! [Hard]" and a description that pretty much tells the player what they're in for. On cool pages it didn't get as many plays (only has made it to page 2), but as of this morning it kept the 4 star rating - the "Frustrating" tag was becoming the main tag until I changed the description, and then it subsided.

OmegaSlayer
08-12-2009, 07:48 PM
Cheers, one bottle of the best champagne for each forum user and make a party.
Send the bill to ConfusedCartman, Leemore, California.
Thanks, and enjoy the level. :p

Newbie312
08-12-2009, 07:53 PM
WOW! That was a long level it took me awhile to beat it but i did and overall it was a great level. There isnt much I can say because everything worked perfect and the visuals were great. So yea amazing job I hearted it and gave it 5 stars.

Killian
08-12-2009, 08:20 PM
Fantastic stuff! It was long, yes, but I enjoyed every bit of it. The 4 months of work really paid off!

I loved the original challenges. I'm really hoping this one doesn't annoy the masses causing them to rate it low. The little section with the falling vents was brilliant. Instead of moving the checkpoint to the other side, like many would have done, you reset the entire thing.

The scenery was great too. Nice how the vegetation grew as you got closer to the surface. The destroyed environment also worked really well.

:star::star::star::star::star: and a heart from me! Good luck with the launch!

rtm223
08-12-2009, 08:22 PM
@ CCubbage: yeah at the moment it says hard in the description but I'll probably add it to the name as well. I think you are exactly the kind of person I was aiming for when I made this so hopefully you'll enjoy it.

@Newbie and Killian: Thank you very much, it's great to see I'm already finding my audience with this one. Out of curiousity, roughly how long did it take you?

Killian
08-12-2009, 08:24 PM
@ CCubbage: yeah at the moment it says hard in the description but I'll probably add it to the name as well. I think you are exactly the kind of person I was aiming for when I made this so hopefully you'll enjoy it.

@Newbie and Killian: Thank you very much, it's great to see I'm already finding my audience with this one. Out of curiousity, roughly how long did it take you?

Hmm, it's hard to tell. I would say 15-20 minutes.

OmegaSlayer
08-12-2009, 08:32 PM
Great man, and the part that you added is really cool with quite an innovative gameplay.
I wonder how you did it...there was supposed to be gas...but other creators made choice like that...so you took the rabbit out of your Ninja scarf.
I took some time to figure that out, but after all it was regarding.

Wonderful original setting, perfect visuals, great idea for the caves and wonderful contraptions.
I knew the level quite well and you manage to solve even the littlest problem in the better way possible.

3 cons for ya...
No LBPC sticker in the level...remember you're a den mother here... :p
No icon...that is a real con
No background...but that's just my taste, since I don't like when you're outside and there's that plain blue sky of the empty level...

5 stars, heart and an appropriate tag...the one about timing (don't know the English tag, since they differ quite a lot from Italian ones)

Good luck with the level and with your dreams of cool pages domination.

Oh...I nearly forgot...
here
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1033&d=1250107221
what does happen if the barrell goes out of jump reach?

rtm223
08-12-2009, 08:44 PM
Great man, and the part that you added is really cool with quite an innovative gameplay.
I wonder how you did it...there was supposed to be gas...but other creators made choice like that...so you took the rabbit out of your Ninja scarf.
I took some time to figure that out, but after all it was regarding. Do you mean the part in the picture? Which bit could you not work out how I did?




3 cons for ya...
No LBPC sticker in the level...remember you're a den mother here... :p
No icon...that is a real con
No background...but that's just my taste, since I don't like when you're outside and there's that plain blue sky of the empty level...

There is nowhere to put a sticker, except by the scoreboard, and I'm not winning the votes for den grandmother yet :p
Edit - made and icon, came out of my workbench level to try it and it looks naff. But it's staying that way for now. It's better than graph paper
Most of the backgrounds mess with the GLT and I could only get the lighting how I wanted it in all of the environments by using the plain background. Bear in mind I only made the proper ending last night, so you never actually saw daylight until then, and there was no way I was going back and tweaking 40-odd GLTs :p


5 stars, heart and an appropriate tag...the one about timing (don't know the English tag, since they differ quite a lot from Italian ones) I think the tag translates to "timing" over here :p Thanks for your hearts and all your help in the Beta.


what does happen if the barrell goes out of jump reach? It can't - it slots in perfectly next the pump and then doesn't budge :) That's how I intended for the puzzle to be solved, but anyway that works for you is fine :)

FlameAtNight
08-12-2009, 09:30 PM
Wow! with all the rave reviews I think I'd like to have a crack at this! Now all I need to do is remember that colour combination. >.<

OmegaSlayer
08-12-2009, 09:32 PM
Wow! with all the rave reviews I think I'd like to have a crack at this! Now all I need to do is remember that colour combination. >.<

If you don't remember it will be fine as well. :p


Do you mean the part in the picture? Which bit could you not work out how I did?



The part with the sewer rat

rtm223
08-12-2009, 09:44 PM
@flame, well you could just bash in random combos and hope... who knows you might get one of the keys out of it eventually ;). Do us a favour and find me some problems in the level to fix, these people are being too nice to me.

@omega. The sneak sensor is a beaut. In essense it's just a sackboy tracker that moves slowly with a couple of extra sensors. A simple concept but getting it to work so you can walk onto it and and have it reset and not keep on firing at random once triggered etc all gets a little complex. It's just layers of logic and I'll be making that public at some point soon with a little tutorial.

CCubbage
08-12-2009, 10:54 PM
Well, I gotta wait until my son goes to be (soon), but I have the key combination, a pen and a notepad and I'm all set!

rtm223
08-13-2009, 12:14 AM
Did anyone else come across a rendering issue with the emitted gas from the vents? In particular the one after you fall down the lift shaft. Invisible gas just killed me 4 times in a row :grr:

I've made an tuned it up so the margin for error should be wider, and published it with some other minor tweaks. I may have to look into it further tomorrow if anyone else hits that problem. Invisible gas indeed :rolleyes:

Anyhoo, I just saw my rating is back to 5 after a brief drop to 4, so I'll unlock before work and see how it goes. It's all rather exciting this level publishing business, isn't it?

mistervista
08-13-2009, 12:25 AM
Invisible gas ? How dya make Invisible gas ?

Anyway it looks and sounds great. I'll have to wait until it's unlocked though because as you know I've tried about 8 or 9 times but the key just won't work because of that stupid bug again ( Are you listening Mm ? )

CCubbage
08-13-2009, 12:26 AM
Just gone done with this.... my verdict?

WOW!!!!!!!!!

I absolutely LOVED this level. It's perfect!

PROS

+ A nice, long, meaty level with tons of challenging platforming
+ Difficult, but NEVER cheap. In every instance I died, I felt like I deserved it. Even when something collapsed, you gave the player a half a second to make a decision.
+ THE TENTACLE! THE TENTACLE! This is one of the coolest gameplay mechanics I've ever seen. Logic at it's best - it was so good it took me a bit to realize it was really happening. I started jumping on and off of it to see how it would react.
+ Fantastic rock maze.
+ Some great (but generally simple) puzzles.
+ Fantastic hidden bubbles
+ Every single jump and grab seemed meticulously planned out - and was done just right so as to be challenging without being frustrating (of course, not for a kid.... :D )

CONS

- The FINAL TREE!!! Ok, not really a con, but the feeling I got when I came out into the grass, thought I was finished.... well, anyway - it was priceless.

GREAT job, 5 stars and a heart... and I've never given out an author heart for a single level before, but this level was equivalent to about 3 levels from many other authors.

I sent a few PSN messages after I finished it telling some others to try it out. Classic stuff.


Invisible gas ? How dya make Invisible gas ?


Draw it really thin, then grab it and shrink it until it disappears. (just like making dark matter disappear)

Newbie312
08-13-2009, 12:58 AM
@ CCubbage: yeah at the moment it says hard in the description but I'll probably add it to the name as well. I think you are exactly the kind of person I was aiming for when I made this so hopefully you'll enjoy it.

@Newbie and Killian: Thank you very much, it's great to see I'm already finding my audience with this one. Out of curiousity, roughly how long did it take you?

It took me about 20-30 minutes because I died alot.

Roanoake
08-13-2009, 01:04 AM
I will play it later today. Friend is staying over for a bit till he can go back to the dorms. He's playing Fat Princess right now.

geddez12
08-13-2009, 01:36 AM
looks a good level il check it out take a look at my secret car garage level as well

RangerZero
08-13-2009, 05:01 AM
Wow. This level is impressive. Looks like I indeed was part of the target audience ;)

You attention to details, the funny, lighting, etc. EVERYTHING down to the tweaking of every jump means finesse and precision. I love it.




PROS:

-Beautiful. Nice details, great use of stickers, stellar lighting.

-I love your breakeables. They simply are well done.

-Difficulty. It's hard but not cheap. I love where the rat actually jumps over me.

-The oscillating light to go with the fire effect. Genius!

-I love your boulder that needs to fall.

-Superb use of the tentacle object!!

-Secret secrets secrets. Seriously, your level obsessed me about jumping everywhere, entering cracks, etc. Very satisfying secrets.

-The way you genuinely let the player figure some stuff out. I HOPE PEOPLE WILL NOTICE.





Your level is absolutely fantastic. I died a freaking lot of times and still got the best score after you. I'm sweaty, i'm amazed. I can wait 4 months again if it means another level of this quality. I'm sorry to put this to yourself but man, this level there is going to be hard to top.

:star::star::star::star::star: + Hearted + Complex

Burnvictim42
08-13-2009, 05:24 AM
*sigh* just when i think i'm done testing, and all the changes are done, i can safely NOT play this level again (seriously, it takes a long time back to back for feedback XD) again, and just leave favorable ratings, WHEN YOU REEL ME BACK IN >:O

Thats how amazing this level is folks, i've played it i have no idea how many times, but as soon as i heard that it'd been updated, i leapt at the chance.

So, the changes you've made have been superb, i like the design of the computers and some of the extra text and lighting changes. I'm not sure i'm too much a fan of the ending though... it seems a little odd for the spike wall jump there, and i'm not sure the flowery garden feels as professional for some reason. But overall, this is a great level (as i'm sure you know :p) i rated 5 and hearted on 2 accounts, that oughta help your ratings a bit. (but i didn't play it twice ;p)

Gimme a ring when you need testing for your next level, willya? :p No F4F needed.

rtm223
08-13-2009, 08:17 AM
Level is now unlocked


Draw it really thin, then grab it and shrink it until it disappears. (just like making dark matter disappear) Actually what I was experiencing last night was an issue where quite large pieces of gas were disappearing. Where you have to time your jump around the emitted gas, it kills you when it looks like it's not there. I tihnk this may be an issue with emitter settings. At least I hope that's what it is. I'll play with the control logic and get it fixed.



+ THE TENTACLE! THE TENTACLE! This is one of the coolest gameplay mechanics I've ever seen. Logic at it's best - it was so good it took me a bit to realize it was really happening. I started jumping on and off of it to see how it would react.
10 hours of trial and error that took, with much tweaking later on to get it in situ. That's for the second part - the smashing was done later on. Getting it to react wasn't too bad, it was getting it to be strong enough to lift and crush you, move however you decided to tease it and not tear itself apart - that was the tricky bit. Tentacle is weaker than sponge, so breaks really easilly.


Some great (but generally simple) puzzles. Yeah I didn't want the puzzles to be too hard, they are more platforming objectives and set pieces, I've called them puzzles because in LBP if it involves more than pulling a switch that generally constitutes "hard". I have some plans for some proper, unique, puzzling puzzles for the future. Think Canibals and Missionaries for the kind of lateral thinking that will be required - for the harder ones towards the end at least.

@Ranger, the oscillating lights are actually randomised :p I find it kinda soothing to watch them, especially in the areas where there are multiple LEDs at once and out of sync and you get the glow on the rockformations :) I tried flickering but it just didn't feel right - I think for a really realistic effect you would want a randomised low frequency signal, with a randomised hight frequencey signal superpositioned... but that seemed like too much effort.

I thought you'd like the secrets as well. Roanoake managed to find them all during playtesting, though I've removed a couple and added a couple since then. Killian actually has the highest score I think, at around 11k, but for some reason he's on 2 player. I normally get about 20k and I think the max is 30-35. I don't wanna be the top one on my score board (I hate when people do that for some reason) so I've left my score relatively low, compared with what is possible.

With regards to figuring the stuff out... TBH I'm annoyed I had to put any hints in at all, if could make the whole thing intuitive then it would have been brilliant. At various points I've ommitted explicit clues and and just used the camera and points and all sorts of other tricks to lead the player. In honesty my testers were a godsend for that - see where they got stuck and what they tried when they were stuck helped me make massive changes.

OK, about the ending: What I'm aiming for was something very LBPish. You've just spent god knows how long running about in the dark and the dirt and finally sackboy gets out into the open air and I wanted pretty flowers and a big old tree and bright and airy, just for the juxtoposition and the relief of getting out. I originally had the idea to leave the wall and just have a little run to the scoreboard, with the tree an optional climbing frame for those wanting to explore. But then I couldn't resist having just one last setback - it just felt so right. Visually I'm not that happy with it at all but I put it together in a couple of hours and I had to fight for every vertex I add to the level (seriously, last night I got excited when I managed to free up 10 verteces in my complex shapes therm) and adding 2 mag switches currently overheats the collected objects thermo. Anyway, I'm totally open to suggestions on how to improve the outdoors scene. Or any other part, TBH.

Ungreth
08-13-2009, 09:30 AM
Made my third run through last night, and I notice you've made quite a few changes in the last week. Only took me half an hour this time, since I had already worked out many of the more difficult sections from my disastrous early runs.

That tree really screwed me over at the end...I would have finished with a quite respectable score of around 10,000, but then I lost it all at the final hurdle. Grrrr!

Loved the rat section which was WIP on my first playthrough, and I even managed to get all the way to the next checkpoint with the rat chasing me. Did you intend that to be possible, or is it supposed to be an inevitable death once you wake him?

I found most of the secret areas (I think), but I'm not sure what's going on with that red door at the top of the final elevator. I suspect it must be the uber-secret of the level, no? Also, I couldn't quite make it to the top of the fire escape before it collapsed, but I'm sure there must be a secret up there.

I noticed you tweaked the post-crusher section to block off the "backdoor" into the level and to make the way forward more intuitive. It works much better now.

Okay, now the giant boulder...there's a series of long jumps leading to a high ledge where you can jump to the boulder and pull it off the cliff. Well, I bypassed all those jumps. I simply jumped up on the ledge directly beneath the boulder, grabbed hold of it and yanked it over the edge. That's not the intended method of progression, I'm guessing?

Anyway...I gave you 5-stars, a heart and a "perilous" tag. The gameplay is frustratingly addictive, the visuals are moodily atmostpheric and the set pieces are expertly designed. I lost count of the number of times I had to stop and wonder how on earth you had achieved much of the logic and the mechanics behind the level. Fantastic job all round, and I think you've pretty much reset the hight of the bar for all level creators.

So...what's next rtm?

rtm223
08-13-2009, 10:03 AM
Ungreth: The tree was supposed to be an easy swing. I wanted it to be a final hurdle, but gadding in the sunshine should be fun - you're climbing on a tree ffs, what is more pleasing to a sackboy than that? Or is that just me, I did climb off the map in mulberry woods because of my love of tree climbing :p I'll lower the wall so it is pretty much a conceptual hurdle rather than a platforming challenge, maybe move it closer to the tree as well.

You are supposed to die on the rats if you wake them up. You can also trick them into jumping over you etc. I don't mind that much if people do escape them - it's actually harder than the "proper" way.

Ditto the shortcut. There are two in that room - that one's the biggy. I originally had this idea there would be multiple paths through each of the cave rooms, some "proper" paths and some shortcuts that were harder to spot and/or harder to do. This is an example that got left in. You a) have to spot it, b) you only get one shot at it per life, and c) you have to manage your momentum to land just right. So again I'm OK with it being there. As it turned out the only multipath sections in the caves are this room and the cracks maze, because it was too difficult to design the natural form of the caves and get the gameplay just right across three layers in single path, let alone multipath.

BTW the checkpoint crusher is just an invisible winch that pulls the checkpoint off into the abyss, activated by the generator - it's still swinging around there somewhere in the darkness. :p I added points and cameras etc there because I could see how it could seem like a dead end scenario.

The door is not the uber-secret. It's just to indicate that there is more to the "facility" than a generator, a pumping room and a lift, it's just a locked door. Not that the architecture of the facility makes sense anyway, just think about the door and elevator to the generator, and the gantries and steps in the generator. In fact nothing about the generator room makes sense :rolleyes:

The uber secret doesn't exist yet, it's just a dead end, but I'm quietly confident that noone will actually get there, so it should be OK until I free up the resourses to do something with it. ;)

What's next is something completely different, that's all you get to know for now :p

RangerZero
08-13-2009, 04:23 PM
Just that you are inspired to come with another level is really pleasing.

You're good in logic/mechanics and it seems you can pull out some seriously amazing visuals too. Your level here is inspiring. I just wish I'd be able to do THAT much with the current thermo. Seriously.

I always wanted to make a level totally dedicated to hardcore platforming with alot of "figuring out" parts. Messing with the mind even more than you did here. I guess I will go on the drawing table soon :)

(by the way, I love your "jump and then grab" gaps. I want to totally steal this concept.)

.

Matt 82
08-13-2009, 10:35 PM
This is great! Has a great look, and is excellently designed. The walkways that fall, the platform that collapses and fllips so you end up the right way and the broken machinery that blocks the door. Fantastic stuff.

On occasion I thought that it verged into the frustrating side of difficult, but the vast majority of it was well judged and challenging. There was one part that I felt needed tweaking; Just after the ascent up the volcano part there`s a crack in the ground with some fire in it. First of all, it`s hard to notice and secondly, jumping over it often causes you to switch layers and you end up landing on the fire in the back layer.

However the level was fantastic, with some good story telling through the use of a minimal use of magic mouths. Looks great and some of the stuff is real quality (sneaking past the rats stands out).

5 stars, hearted and 'brilliant' tag.

rtm223
08-14-2009, 12:07 AM
You're good in logic/mechanics and it seems you can pull out some seriously amazing visuals too. The visuals don't come naturally believe me. I found a couple of styles here that worked for me, but a lot of why it's taken so long has been me learning how to improve the look and it takes so long. I'm just not one to play to my strengths, y'know?


I just wish I'd be able to do THAT much with the current thermo. Seriously. The thermo has been insane. I hit the final bar on both objects AND complex shapes ages ago. I had to go through reducing the points and tweaking corners all over the place to get the final scene in. I've done some optimising and now I can add a fe edges and 3 switches (oooh what a logic monster I can make with that :p)


(by the way, I love your "jump and then grab" gaps. I want to totally steal this concept.) Do it. One thing to bear in mind if you do is jump and hold makes you stop. Jump and tap grab slingshots you - there is a big combo (x8 or 9 I think) around the biggest plant if you can do some nifty planeswitching and finish by slinging yourself past. If you can work some stuff like that into even bigger combos I think you could make some very addictive gameplay :)

Matt, thanks for your feedback.
On occasion I thought that it verged into the frustrating side of difficult, but the vast majority of it was well judged and challenging. There was one part that I felt needed tweaking; Just after the ascent up the volcano part there`s a crack in the ground with some fire in it. First of all, it`s hard to notice and secondly, jumping over it often causes you to switch layers and you end up landing on the fire in the back layer. Yeah, I'm running a very fine line so I'm bound to cross it at times. I guess it depends what gameplay indivisuals like and are best at. I've got alright platforming skills but I suck at anything with a jetpack that is vaguely hard, so it's hard to balance on that line. :grr:

I know exactly where you mean - in honesty I've been playing this level for so long I know to just tap x there and hop over - doesn't even cross my mind. Now you mention it, it is quite nasty - it instagibbs if you run into it and jump too soon and your dead. And it's right by the next checkpoint, so it's a long hike back. I've rolled in some updates this evening so I'll see what I can do about it before I repbulish. Edit - I didn't actually come up with a solution, short of remove it. As that feels like a cop out it's staying while I tihnk of a better solution, but I'll prob just end up removing it eventually.

GruntosUK
08-14-2009, 08:50 AM
I was playing this the same time as Matt82 last night, I finished it first, so that obviously makes me better than him. Anyway, onto the feedback.

First impressions on entering the level were excellent, I loved the use of materials and the stickers to give that rusty, rundown feel. Dropping the global lighting made a difference to the look as well, giving it a darker, dirtier, more edgy feel it looked great. Like everybody else the tentacle sections were a standout, I stood and watched the second one for ages, it was a very nice and fresh use of the object. I must have died 20 times at the rats!! In the end I gave up charging ahead and avoided it, the sense of relief was great, I like getting that after passing a particularly hard section.

The level is obvioulsy play tested to bits, and the logic behind scenes must be complex, I was very impressed with the air vent section that collapses perfectly each time, and then completely resets when you (inevitably) die. The puzzles were all well thought out, and its refreshing not to get led by the hand all the way through, which I am sometimes to guilty of.

A couple of things, that are impossible to change now reading your posts. The cave sections towards the end, they got a little repetitive I thought, with to many pixel perfect jumps, but thats just my point of view. Some sort of secret tracker would also be good, it would guarentee replays when you realised you missed loads out.

Its a hard, challenging level, but one that's great to play, I must have spent 30 or so minutes in the level and loved every minute. *****, brilliant, and hearted. An awesome level. I've messaged everyone on my freinds list not from this site and told them to check it out.

Can I ask where you got the font, or full stickers, for all the signs from?

rtm223
08-14-2009, 09:05 AM
Hey Grantos, I saw your comment last night on the level. Thanks for playing and also for the recommendations to your friends - I really appreciate that :)

You aren't supposed to die at the rats, the text tells you what to do. It's actually one of the easier parts of the level :p

I'm glad everyone liked the tentacle, it was one of those things you make out of curiousity, not really knowing how it's going to turn out or even if it's possible and then when it was done I knew I had to use it somehow. I had this idea for an octaboss, manipulating each tentacle in different ways, but then realised how hard it would be :p Maybe sometime in the future.

I was worried the caves would get a little repetitive. I was trying to create caves that aren't full of motor bolts and pistons (just to be different) so it was quite limiting on what was possible. Also I just had an unbelieveable amount of fun making them I probably got a bit carried away!

I really wanted a secret tracker but it's just impossible. I've thought about every possible way to implement it and in the end it came down to having that or a final scene (during playtesting the scoreboard was in the lift so sacky never actually saw daylight :(). It's a shame but I can live with it. Hopefully the current high score being that high will indicate there is a lot more to be found.

I made the font :p It's just the font from Doom and wasn't too difficult to put together because the whole thing has consistant geometry. I made the alphabet and most of the numbers so you can have them if you want. I was gonna add it as a prize bubble anyway at some point. I'm actually intending on adding some more signage around the place - I didn't bother before release because it's just "added value" and I was itching to get the release done lol :p

wexfordian
08-14-2009, 10:03 AM
Ooohh this is out. This must be one of my most anticipated levels so far!

From all the great posts you have on this forum and your in depth knowledge of logic I have been looking forward to seeing what you come up with for your first level.

I'd be interested in hearing how you feel about the whole process of how it feels for the first time to have all these people playing and commenting on your level. For me its a great buzz just seeing that there are x amount playing your creation right now.

rtm223
08-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Heh, that's my plan, spam the forums so my name gets known and take forever to actually produce anything, then when I do y'all can't resist being curious :p It's all calculated y'know, I'm not just really really slow in create :p

It's been crazy, I was so nervous about unlocking, but seeing it hold 4 stars through till this morning was a real buzz, and I felt so proud seeing a constant 2-3 players last night - it's not many but it's just like, that's my baby with people playing it :) And the feedback here has been great as well - especially when the positive comments are coming from some of the best creators around.

Matt 82
08-14-2009, 12:06 PM
I was playing this the same time as Matt82 last night, I finished it first, so that obviously makes me better than him. Anyway, onto the feedback.

1) When I went to start the level there was a note saying that you were already playing so you started before me.

2) When I left the level and went to heart it, that note was still there.

3) My score is way higher than yours.

mrsupercomputer
08-14-2009, 02:38 PM
I just finished playing this and really enjoyed it, but unfortunately, I was unable to finish. I got the generator started and made it back to the elevator, but the opening sequence started, but the final doors didn't open. I wasn't sure if I missed if I was supposed to find a switch to open them or if they just got stuck.

Anyway, up to that point, I had a great time with it. The level was very epic in scale and had my Sackboy traversing many locations. Going from the sewers, to the rocky caves, to the more industrial areas provided for a lot of variety. I also loved the interactive environment. The rocks crumbling and breaking as you jumped really added to the immersion. This is something I would like to incorporate more into my own levels.

I thought the gameplay was solid and enjoyed a lot of the big jumps that you incorporated into the design. There were a few instances where I'd get caught between the layer transitions, but for the most part I didn't have trouble. The level was defintely difficult and I had a few frustrating moments (the rat drove me crazy, even after I stuck by, he'd sometimes catch up to me.), but overall I felt it was pretty fair.

So far, I'm really enjoying it and I can't wait to give it another go so that I can see the end. Well done!

rtm223
08-14-2009, 02:43 PM
Oh crap. This sounds very much like the current uploaded version is bugged.

Do you mean the doors at the top of the elevator didn't open, or at the bottom?

And with the rat, it still triggered even when you sneaked (snook? IDK) and the text came up to say that you were out of earshot?

Gah, I've gotta wait 8 minutes before I can leave work, this is stressful :grr:

OmegaSlayer
08-14-2009, 03:40 PM
You're stressing yourself too much rtm...
Anyway, I'm so pleased that your level is doing very well and has this wonderful responses, since you deserve it, both creator wise and humanity wise.
Your hard work is paying off.

RangerZero
08-14-2009, 03:48 PM
Still to do:

1. speed up rats / modify jump dynamic



Why? I thought their speed is perfect. You can't run them out. And right now they can jump over your head if you time yourself perfect. I wouldn't break this great behavior. If they go faster and the jump changes, they will only become cheap. If you trigger them you will simply die. :/


.

deboerdave
08-14-2009, 04:09 PM
i will give this a try tonight ... sounds like it will be good

rtm223
08-14-2009, 04:19 PM
Right, we are back in business!

After rushing back from work to fix the elevator, it turns out that the doors wouldn't open because my bloody searchlight vanished from the level! Just diconnected itself from the logic and vanished! So that's now fixed.

@mrsupercomputer: I'm so sorry you went through all that punishment just to have the lift break! It's definately fixed now, so feel free to have another go when you're ready. If you can jot down any particular spots where the layers were an issue then that would be great - I don't mind hard and I don't mind some of the jumps needing timing and precision, but I really don't want any awkward planeshifting. Also, any advice on what to do with the final section, visually, would be greatly appreciated.

The stuff falling apart is generally quite easy, it's really more about tuning timings using trial and error, with the occasional piece of string here or there to control movement. As long as you have patience and attention to detail (which you seem to have in spades) it should be fine. Let me know if you want any help with that at all.

@omega: I haven't been this stressed in over a year, and I have low blood pressure so the stress is probably doing me good :p

@Ranger: Hmm I see what you are saying. I don't agree it's cheap if you don't follow instructions though :p But I guess it is kinda nice leaving them so people can play with them and trick them and I imagine most people, if they do follow the instructions, will go back and not sneak just to see. I'll leave them be I think.

FlameAtNight
08-14-2009, 04:41 PM
Guess I won't have to remember anything at all! :p

I'll get to this soon.:)

swanbrown
08-15-2009, 05:02 AM
- wow this level starts off pretty hard! not sure why, but I can't seem to keep hold of the yellow and blak striped grap-hangs. not sure what's at play. I died alot from just letting go of the sponge...I''l have to check my controller. nope. seems to be working fine on ther grap-n-swing levels. What gives?

The animation, and interactivity of the smaller tentacle that tries to slap you when you walk up to it is amazing! Really impressive. Tough challenge, too with-out being frustrating.


- If the rat chases you, the camera takes a sudden jerk to the right giving you a glimpse of a pit to jump. It's almost a whip-pan, and not a good thing In my opinion. I think if you adjust the tracking on that camera a little, it would help.

-Nice job on the velocity sensor, that's a really cool idea!

Doing this section (rat chase,still) over and over is a real pain when it takes for ever to get past the V sensor. Even if you sneak past the point where you tell the player it's safe, the rat often still chases you (Is that intentional?), so What's the point? That's more irksome than fun.

I ended up activating an infinite check-point with deadly gas in front of it while trying to jump onto a pipe...that's where this level lost me.

It didn't take long before I was playing this level more out of obligation, than for fun. I doubt I'll want to play this again.

What I saw was absolutely beautiful, but frustrating. I understand this level is intended for players with high skill, and lots of patience.

I apologize for this short review, I have no doubt that your level deserves better. I will give it another try in a day or two, and See if I can finish this list of notes.

rtm223
08-15-2009, 09:50 AM
Doing this section (rat chase,still) over and over is a real pain when it takes for ever to get past the V sensor. Even if you sneak past the point where you tell the player it's safe, the rat often still chases you (Is that intentional?), so What's the point? That's more irksome than fun.
No it really shouldn't happen. The text is triggered by a prox which also resets the spawn trigger. Or should. MrSC said the same thing yesterday but I couldn't see it. I'm gonna have to look into this because I just don't get it. :grr: just spend the last 20 minutes with the rats and nothing, the reset works every time. THe worst I got was a rat who jumped at me and broke his legs :p that was awkward. And now I see the problem. If you don't start running when in the "safe zone" - or maybe sometimes when you do the tracker follows you out, re-arms and then triggers - What an idiot. This should now be fixed.



I ended up activating an infinite check-point with deadly gas in front of it while trying to jump onto a pipe...that's where this level lost me. hmmm I can see the problem there, I'll have the checkpoint emitted because that's obviously a level-killing issue. Thanks for bringing that up.


It didn't take long before I was playing this level more out of obligation, than for fun. I doubt I'll want to play this again.
If you aren't enjoying it then pease don't feel you have to carry on. You are not in any way obligated. I don't wanna use F4F as a means to force people to play my level for hours when they aren't enjoying it - what's the point in that? You played it and it wasn't for you, and that is more than understandable, considering what I have done here. Thanks for giving it a shot anyway and there is absolutely no need to appologise :)

OmegaSlayer
08-15-2009, 10:40 AM
Geez, I wonder why some kind of issue still happens.
I played the lavel and it was "absolutely butter"...everything worked fine...then suddenly things begin to broke.
And I'm experiencing this stuff with my beta too...sometimes when I republish, something stops from working...what a pain.

Just a little note about the ending rtm...
This is something that I'm doing for my level, but it couold be an idea.
When you get out you can put something that is relieving, peaceful, and you're not forced to make it under the light of the sun.
I made something "poetic" for my last part, maybe you should try a solution like that...

rtm223
08-15-2009, 10:56 AM
Nothing has changed here, it's just tiny loopholes in the tech. THere is so much tech that revolves around prox sensors in the level that it's almost inevitable that particular things are going to get overlooked in testing. This is something that I should have picked up at design level though.

CCubbage
08-15-2009, 11:41 AM
Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a debug mode in LittleBigPlanet where all the switches were automatically visible and the ranges were visible lines?

rtm223
08-15-2009, 02:35 PM
Yes. Also allow me to see the hysteresis on the proxs, and show what the level looks like in play mode, in create mode, optionally. I was actually going to post up some create mode picks that just show the generator as a tangle of wires (all the control for the crushers below comes through there as well), it's kinda amusing. I'll do some behind the scenes footage at some point.

Also can I please edit my emitted objects inside the emitter, rather than get the object, place it, tweak it, reacapture, move the emitter because there is something else blocking the emission, replace the emitter, find out the emitter has randomly flipped the object when I moved it, move the.... Yeah?



I just hit 100 plays with 23 hearts and 4 stars!
w00t w00t!


My scoreboard is looking pretty threadbare, but never mind :)

deboerdave
08-15-2009, 04:07 PM
played last night and i enjoyed this level. i dont how many times i tried to out run the rat before i read the note about being not waking them ... (i am not much of a reader when i play levels ). i liked the little mazes cut into the wall. good difficulty level through out. a few parts i died a bunch trying to get some extra points... ended up having less points becuase of it ... i will probably play it again to post a better score.

comphermc
08-15-2009, 09:40 PM
W00t, 100 plays! You should expect at least 2 more when I get back. I'm going through withdrawals, here...

Hybrid
08-15-2009, 10:14 PM
looks awsome wil try it tonight

Leonardo
08-15-2009, 10:28 PM
I played this level with LittleBigSackboy, I love the level concept.
LBSB and I cheated at the part where you have to run from the big bug. :)

Hybrid
08-15-2009, 10:31 PM
the rat part is inposible :s

rtm223
08-15-2009, 10:59 PM
Hybrid leader: The text at the rat part says something along the lines of "I'd better sneak past slowly so I don't wake them up."

I've also just altered the section that Matt had issues with. I think it should be a lot better now, the jump is more visible, there is just a pitfall if you don't see it, and you shouldn't planeshift onto the fire :)

OmegaSlayer
08-15-2009, 11:05 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a debug mode in LittleBigPlanet where all the switches were automatically visible and the ranges were visible lines?

The man is right :p
This and the ability to hide layers.
I have a criss cross section in my level (Grantos' style) and it's impossible to work on the back layer.
I wonder ho Grantos manage to work with it...or better, I imagine the planning on paper and I bow to all that insane amount of work.

Hybrid
08-15-2009, 11:11 PM
oke i complete it it was fun but some times realy iritating :p
:star::star::star::star:

ohyea the theme is cool (i was working on a level with the same theme but i stoped:p)

Incinerator22
08-16-2009, 03:37 AM
Wow great level, I also knew you were amazing at logic but I never knew you were amazing at levels too :) And its amaxing how much logic you actually did incorperate into the level. The part with the rats was genius, the way it springs up at you, the reset logic where you fell deeper and deeper and it got darker was brilliant, and the part where the tencacle springs through the wall scared the snot out of me :eek: But don't get me wrong, this level isn;t just about logic. It had comedy(loved the sewer mutants part), great platforming(can't even begin to list all the great examples) and much more.
Again, great level, it kept me having fun for a long, long time.

F4F? please comment on my tank thread :)

rtm223
08-16-2009, 09:32 AM
@Hybrid, I think I posted somewhere else on the forum that the themes are so generic - videogame and LBP staples that they are likely to crop up a LOT. I just tried to put my own spin on a common theme (it's easier than thinking up your own theme :p) I'm glad you got some enjoyment out of it despite the frustration! Are you looking for F4F on any of your levels? If so which one?

@incinerator, the quantity of logic is quite insane, a lot of it isn't very obvious unless you are looking for it (I'd guess there is more logic controlling magic mouths and cameras than some people put in an entire level lol). I'm glad someone actually commented on the bottomless pit / falling into darkness idea, the only other comment I've had on that was that it took too long to respawn and slowed down the level - just good to know someone liked it ;)

Out of curiosity, with the tentacle, were you just standing around waiting for something to happen when you fell? My aim was to create a little sense of foreboding with the dark and the sound and then scare the bejesus out of my players :) If you run up to the grill he comes out earlier as well, which is probably more scary if you aren't expecting it.

Anyway thanks for your kind words. I tried to look at the tank when you sent it to me, but my profile exploded. I did go look at the level the other day but never got around to commenting. Will play again so it's fresh in my mind and let you know in a bit.

Hybrid
08-16-2009, 02:19 PM
The Calm Of The Fire ;)

rtm223
08-16-2009, 02:59 PM
I'll get on it tonight or tomorrow mate

mrsupercomputer
08-16-2009, 05:24 PM
Alright, I gave it another go today and enjoyed it even more this time through, probably because I could actually finish it! :p

I noticed that I didn't have as many layer transition problems as I originally thought. I really only had two, and neither one was that bad. The first occurs shortly after the second appearance of the tentacle, where you must jump on it. After you pass it, you have to make your way through a maze of metal beams and point bubbles. At the end of this maze, you have to jump up some cracks, but I would occasionally get stuck in a background crack. Only happen once on this playthrough though.

The other occurred after the cave in at the generator. Again, this play through didn't have the same results and I only found myself getting stuck once, so probably no big deal.

I did notice a typo at the beginning of the level. When the sewer mutant says "There are not such things as zombies."

I didn't run into the issue where the rat would chase me after sneaking by this time, so I don't know if you fixed something or that was just a fluke the first itme. I did notice that some people are missing the text bubble or don't understand the need to be sneaking. What if you had the snoring rats eyes light up or something? Kind of a signal that they are awake.

Anyway, great level!

rtm223
08-16-2009, 08:53 PM
Thanks mrSC. I tihnk the level plays better the second time through because you are a little more prepared for what's in store as well TBH, it's less of a punising experience that way. Although I'm sure lifts that actually work are a bonus :p So:

Rats, this was a design flaw, a really stupid one, that I fixed after you played so thanks for pointing that out. I could do with some kind of animation on the rats but I can't help but think that would not be enough indication of what you needed to do. There is no sneak in LBP, it's not abe's odyssey where players expect it, so even if the rats wake up, I just guess people would think that is part of the plan. I did have an idea that after 3 times triggering the rats a different text bubble would come up, to hammer the point home, but for that I need thermo. Not much thermo, but more than is available until I do some streamlining.

Cracks after the beams - I knew there was a bit of an issue there but I thought I'd nailed it. In theory you shouldn't shift, but with complex shapes the shifting seems to go a bit spazzy at times. I'll have a play around and see what I can do. Edit - I can't get this to happen :( will have to play around with it later.

collapsed floor - Ugh, this bit is horrible. Basically various keystones in the floor are connected to dissolve offscreen by rods. Just before the stairs hit it, I dissolve the dissolve and let the stair smash through. None of it is even slightly controlled - that's why it looks so realistic :p But because sackboy is involved ever so slightly and the physics of an event do vary subtley with time, that section can end up a right mess. The checkpoint at the exit of the generator room is there fore that purpose - so you don't have to do the momentum jump again if you get stuck and pop yourself. I don't really know how to improve that section - I'll have to give it a think. Edit - OK what I've done here is change the floor so that the layers are distinctly height ordered - you can still end up on the plane behind, but the layer in front will always be below you. I tihnk it's the best I can do.

I've fixed the typo - I blame that on my testers, where was your proofreading guys? Eh?

Thank you very much for playing and thanks for the kind words.


edit - I just saw your comment on the level as well and it made me smile :)

OmegaSlayer
08-16-2009, 10:07 PM
I've fixed the typo - I blame that on my testers, where was your proofreading guys? Eh?

Thank you very much for playing and thanks for the kind words.


edit - I just saw your comment on the level as well and it made me smile :)

I is Italians, ca'nt spik yur languege wel enuff. :p

rtm223
08-16-2009, 11:12 PM
I is Italians, ca'nt spik yur languege wel enuff. :p

Are you sure you're italian, here you sound like you're from wellingborough... Oh how I love my sophisticated hometown :rolleyes:

jackofcourse
08-16-2009, 11:41 PM
I'll be sure to play this tomorrow. I've been fascinated by your signature saying you're making a level for a while now as you've always seemed to know what you're talking about :)

Your feedback on my levels has always been great too so I will try and do the same!

rtm223
08-16-2009, 11:50 PM
Hey jack, thanks. It'll be interesting to see what you think as I recon our creations sit at very opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of gameplay.

Matt 82
08-17-2009, 12:28 AM
yeah like you say, you're biggest problem with the sneaking system is probably that very few players will have experienced that before in LBP. I was a bit sceptical myself first time and wasn't sure if I'd misunderstood the part about moving slowly. after making it across, I instantly ran back to see if it made any difference.

rtm223
08-17-2009, 12:43 AM
Yeah I really need to free the therm for that counter. All I need is an emitter, a mag key and a mag switch and a piston, I must be able to free that up somewhere. Or I could use CC's crusher counter. Grrr why did I run this level right up to the limits of the therm? :grr:

I'm glad people go back to check actually - there's no point in me making the rats if people don't see them. But I really don't want people not paying attetnion to the text and struggling to the point of frustration.

jackofcourse
08-17-2009, 01:05 AM
Absolutely loved it. Fantastic level. I always try and make everything new and innovative when sometimes just some quality well thought of platforming jumps are so effective.

Few things that I wrote down as I was playing through...

Loved the ladder, great design and well implemented. The stickered wood above that looked awesome too.

The only thing I didn't like was when you first got to the elevator and you went down to the bottom for no other reason than to find out something was broken, personally, I'm not keen on things like that. It seems a bit pointless to me, however, that is because I'm so platforming motivated and I pretty much see any storyline or premise as getting in the way, so forgive me that one :)

The gas vents that fall off and flip so you land on them are brilliant, excellently designed and implemented again. The way it all falls gives you just enough time for it not to be cheap as well.

All the simple platforming that follows is fantastic, can tell that everything has been thought through and placed exactly where it needs to be. The bubbles are perfectly placed for combos in these areas as well. I died a good few times just concentrating on keeping the combo going and as a consequence jumping too late or just running straight into something. Really will help with the replay value, (I'll definitely be back, 4th is not good enough!).

I did feel that although I loved the platforming here and it was well done, when I was nearing the end it did feel like it was starting to drag a bit and like it was a tad too long in those areas. Not a major concern as I did really enjoy it, just I'd probably have that cave platforming section to be a little shorter.

There were two parts that may, for me, have been bordering on frustrating.

The crushers, you really do have to time those well and not mess about. Even the best of gamers will need a few goes on them, (I think I managed on my third).

The barrel bit at the end, getting the barrel to the end wasn't a problem, it was managing to get up and over quick enough, I think I died 3 times here before I found the secret room to the right (absolutely love the way you come out of the little vent at the top there) from up at the top there I found it much easier to get across. I'm not sure if that's the only way to do it, or the intended way to do it, but that only occurred to me when I noticed the secret room.

I noticed you had a few concerns of the visuals at the end, I did think the top of the elevator was a bit empty and personally I'm not a fan of the 'happy bright ending'. (I've done it myself in an early level). I noticed you mentioned you were running out of thermo...perhaps take the happy ending out and just have it end at the top of the elevator, that would give you more thermo and be able to decorate that top area a bit more?

That all depends on how attached you are to the bright ending though, as I said, that's just my personal opinion that it's a bit cliche, and not keen on how it's so different from the rest of your level (I know that's the point of it, but still :P)

5 stars hearted. Absolutely fantastic. Definitely my favourite level of recent times, and probably in my 10 top of all time just for the challenging but fair platforming. It's these kind of level that I love to play again and again, for the difficulty, and for the excellently placed score bubbles.

(I wrote a section in my creating guide about how they can help replay value if they're placed well, this level is a perfect example of it!)

I noticed how you commented before on how we're at different ends difficulty and gameplay wise. Even though I try to keep my levels pretty simple and straight forward so that everyone can finish them, when done well like this, there's no doubt challenging levels are my favourite.

brnxblze
08-17-2009, 03:09 AM
Playing through this level by recommendation from Jackofcourse, some little things I see as I go through the level.
-One of the sewer mutants (that part was very funny BTW) says abondoned facility instead of abandoned.
-Those rats are some ugly creatures lol, they pwned me a couple times, how in the world did you make it sense how fast you're going???
-I liked how you used the tentacles as vines, I never thought of it but that looks really nice.
-Generator part was really nice, at first I was running on top and getting frustrated from how hard it was but then I was like oh...you can...get inside and run...
-Wow even your elevator was brilliant.
The level was just amazing. The visuals were top notch and the platforming was great. I rated it only 5 stars because the game didn't let me rate higher and hearted it.

swanbrown
08-17-2009, 04:42 AM
----parts I found particularly nice:
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt210/swanbrown/utility/swanbullets.jpg the hanging machine that breaks, and the rocky out-crop that break-away,pause,then fall area great! really nice! the timing of it is perfect. just when the player realizes it's not going to drop away...it drops away! and it's gradual enough that the player has a chance to realize they've misjudged the author's attitude.

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt210/swanbrown/utility/swanbullets.jpg I thought the cracks in the wall, as well as being fun to crawl around in, were a great solution to having a large detailed wall with-out hitting the object complexity limit.

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt210/swanbrown/utility/swanbullets.jpg The velocity swith on the generator was great. I loved how it kind of kicked you around a little when it activated.(http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt210/swanbrown/utility/subsurf.jpg)
----parts That made me wonder.
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt210/swanbrown/utility/swanbullets.jpgafter you get the boulder un-stuck, there's a series of jumps leading to some cacti and the next check-point. Not sure if you planed it, but a clumsy-lucky player, or one willing to take a hot-seat can circumvent most of it by jumping off the top, and bouncing off the fire toward the left.

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt210/swanbrown/utility/swanbullets.jpgthe section after the generator is powered up, when a bridge (black and white stripe)collapses: It looks like it was supposed to crumble away. was it supposed to jam in the tunnel, or was it supposed to reveal a new path? It's a nice task if it is the former, but it looks unintended.

----possible problem
I hope you don't mind my saying, but your difficulty curve seems back wards. Compared with the beginning, The rest of the level (past the smaller tentacle) was a breeze. I'm glad I came back. It really is an enjoyable level, but I'm afraid you may loose many potential fans on the first few challenges before they get to the easer parts.

----conclusion
Well, looks like I placed 15'th.

This level is extremely well put together, and used excellent use of custom stickers to make materials match. The sound effects were right-on, and the general mood was well conveyed with out sacrificing visibility. Very nice work.

I gave it a five-star rating.

--------------------
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt210/swanbrown/utility/subsurf.jpgBtw, does that mean you will be revieling the secrets of the velocity switch now that your level is complete? I thinks I recall somthing about that in one of your demos. heh, heh.

Incinerator22
08-17-2009, 06:08 AM
your welcome. And sorry for blowing up your profile lol. When I went towards the tentacle part, I sort of expected something to happen, but I was having too much fun to care hehe. But when it sprung out I jumped. Really, it scared the freakin crap outta me lol. I was almst in shock of how i got so scared at lbp, but its just another example of how phenomenal your level was :)

wexfordian
08-17-2009, 08:08 AM
Wow, well you definitely didn't disappoint!

I loved it. It was well built, looked great, challenging yet pretty fair.

I loved the way you arranged the point bubbles for combos and will definitely be trying to incorporate that more into my own levels in the futre :)

Some great use of logic to set/reset stuff. Lots of playtestying went into this.

My only suggestions would be that it could have used some subtle lighting in places. Certain areas I didn't know what to do next simple because I couldn't see anything. Im talking in particular about the maze bit with the fire background. I must have spent about 10 minutes trying to see where I could go and had to close the curtains before I could see the route. I think other players might not have the same patience.

Overall I rated this 5 stars and hearted it. Such a good job rtm! Thanks for creating it.

rtm223
08-17-2009, 08:20 AM
Ok, lots to respond to:


The only thing I didn't like was when you first got to the elevator and you went down to the bottom for no other reason than to find out something was broken, personally, I'm not keen on things like that. It seems a bit pointless to me, however, that is because I'm so platforming motivated and I pretty much see any storyline or premise as getting in the way, so forgive me that one :) Yeah it's a bit... meh. You can skip it without losing anything but a text box on subsequent plays. Although if you're after the high score then you'd do well to go back down there and explore ;) nudge nudge....


The gas vents that fall off and flip so you land on them are brilliant, excellently designed and implemented again. The way it all falls gives you just enough time for it not to be cheap as well. I was scared about the cheapness of this. I added the text about "holding on tight" - cryptic I know, and gave a bit of delay, but if you panic and let go then you're dead. Very close to cheap, but once I'd got the camera angles and timings all spot on, I hoped the coolness of it would win over :D


I did feel that although I loved the platforming here and it was well done, when I was nearing the end it did feel like it was starting to drag a bit and like it was a tad too long in those areas. Not a major concern as I did really enjoy it, just I'd probably have that cave platforming section to be a little shorter. I was reading this just before I went to bed last night and you're the second one who's said this, and I can't help but agree. What I realised is that section where you swing on the underside of platforms then back over the top is crap. It serves no purpose logistically, there are no points, it's wholey uninspiring visually and I don't even like the way the jumps work along the top. I think if I cut that then I cut down the length slightly and improve the average quality of the caves and I can solve coyote-blue's falling off the map issue which happens near there.


The crushers, you really do have to time those well and not mess about. Even the best of gamers will need a few goes on them

The barrel bit at the end, getting the barrel to the end wasn't a problem, it was managing to get up and over quick enough,
Hmm, the crushers I tend to get through partially on luck. I thought about slowing them down before testing but no one mentioned anything so I left it. Similar with the leaky pumps. I can actually do that everytime now, but initially it caused me a lot of problems. Both sections are controlled by timing logic so I should be able to quite easilly slow them down a tad - not much mind, I don't wanna make things too easy :p



That all depends on how attached you are to the bright ending though, as I said, that's just my personal opinion that it's a bit cliche, and not keen on how it's so different from the rest of your level (I know that's the point of it, but still :P) I'm attached to the concept, just not my implementation of it. I know it's cliched, but all the themes in the level are so I can live with that :p Plus the "oh you're outside and it's all over" but then there's a wall in the way amuses me. I do need to add detail to the building at the top of the lift though. Hopfully ditching that cave section will free up some resources to play with.

Thanks for your detailed feedback, it's really appreciated, and I'm glad you enjoyed my level.



One of the sewer mutants (that part was very funny BTW) says abondoned facility instead of abandoned.
Those rats are some ugly creatures lol, they pwned me a couple times, how in the world did you make it sense how fast you're going???
I liked how you used the tentacles as vines, I never thought of it but that looks really nice.
Generator part was really nice, at first I was running on top and getting frustrated from how hard it was but then I was like oh...you can...get inside and run...
Wow even your elevator was brilliant.

Ta, I'll fix that ;)
They are supposed to :p I explained it earlier in the thread - at heart it's just a slow moving sackboy tracker. I'll get full details published in the next couple of weeks.
They are actually snakes, stickered up with custom stickers. I should point out that I wholeheartedly stole the idea from kiminski on his (her??) Lara Cloth levels.

Thanks for the feedback and kind words. Do you have an H4H thread you want me looking at?



Swan! you came back to me! :)


the rocky out-crop that break-away,pause,then fall area great! really nice! the timing of it is perfect. just when the player realizes it's not going to drop away...it drops away! and it's gradual enough that the player has a chance to realize they've misjudged the author's attitude. The rocky outcrop doesn't drop until you are safe. I may revisit this and have it another timed event with reset on failure to make it a hazard (which was the original plan, that never came about due to laziness)


The velocity swith on the generator was great. I loved how it kind of kicked you around a little when it activated.
That was really annoying, if I did it too slow, sackboy was never in a position long enough to jump out and just tumbledried forever, if it was too fast, then he squished. Took me so many attempts to find the middleground, that actually spits you out safely if you don't manually jump down.


after you get the boulder un-stuck, there's a series of jumps leading to some cacti and the next check-point. Not sure if you planed it, but a clumsy-lucky player, or one willing to take a hot-seat can circumvent most of it by jumping off the top, and bouncing off the fire toward the left. You mean you can drop and bounce left. I'd say that's semi-intentional. If you notice it, or fall and have the quick reflexes to pull it off, or get lucky then fair do's. You miss out on a points combo tho :p


the section after the generator is powered up, when a bridge (black and white stripe)collapses: It looks like it was supposed to crumble away. was it supposed to jam in the tunnel, or was it supposed to reveal a new path? It's a nice task if it is the former, but it looks unintended. Not sure what you mean here. Is this in the crusher room? The yellow and black and then you go underneath to shift the debris? It is supposed to collapse and normally falls into the cogs where it mashes up - I added sound effects for that. Sometimes it doesn't fall in but I like to push it if it doesn't :p


I hope you don't mind my saying, but your difficulty curve seems back wards. Compared with the beginning, The rest of the level (past the smaller tentacle) was a breeze. I'm glad I came back. It really is an enjoyable level, but I'm afraid you may loose many potential fans on the first few challenges before they get to the easer parts. I think actual jumps etc are harder later on, but more forgiving - not every mistake leads to death. The early section is very unrelenting in that respect. I also think the difficulty has it's ups and downs, it's very much not right though, but that's what happens when you build a level with no plan and let it just grow organically :p


Btw, does that mean you will be revieling the secrets of the velocity switch now that your level is complete? I thinks I recall somthing about that in one of your demos. heh, heh. Sneak sensor and the velocity hamster wheel 2, yes as they got used in the level. The three way winchy do-dad was supposed to find it's way in but didn't (the burning carcass was all that survived of that). I have not made a decision on this yet.

Thanks for persevering through the level and giving it a second shot - it's very much appreciated. BTW did you still have the grabbing issues on the first section, 'cause I really don't understand that.


Also, thanks to everyone who has recommended me to a friend. I'm not a known creator and I don't really want to spam cool pages with unnecessary republishing and the word-of-mouth seems to be getting me a fair amount of plays, with a decent hearts-plays ratio, so thanks.


@wex. The maze section is perfectly visible to me and no one else has mentioned anything. It's supposed to be a little confusing as it's a maze and the plane-shifting in this manner is not a common dynamic. I don't want it to be non-visible. I could attempt to get some large radius LEDs on the thin layer behind, which would cast an orange glow on the sides of the rocks, but that's gonna be tricky to shoehorn in. Would look very nice though.

Has anyone noticed there are two paths through that maze?

I actually wish I could have got more combos into tricky platforming scenarios. Personally, I hate the "run down a corridor that you have to run down and get a big old combo" that appears in too many levels. I don't want the combo that every other player who played before me got. I wanna work for my combos, so I can actually feel good about them.

mistervista
08-17-2009, 05:37 PM
I'll be brief because I don't like reams of text to read through myself.

You did warn me it was probably more difficult that I like and you weren't wrong. It was extremely difficult in places but I did manage to finish it so it must have been a good difficulty.

The only part I found really annoying was the rock maze with the small cracks. It was just too restrictive and felt very claustrophobic. I could see where to go but it was so narrow it was almost impossible to move , let alone jump.

Overall though it was Brilliant, especially for a first 'proper' level and I enjoyed it a lot apart from that section. Great design and 'That Tentacle' was very clever. I have no idea how you made it come down with such force that it killed you. Genius stuff.

I just hope some of the creators out there who make levels difficult for the sake of it and just use cheap deaths learn from your example that it is possible to make levels very difficult but still fair and enjoyable. Well done.

Morgana25
08-17-2009, 05:51 PM
Played through it the other day and really liked it. I threw caution to the wind and tried with 4x players (it can be done...... if your group is patient and doesn't mind camera troubles)

+ Looked great. Bit dark but it works
+ Fantastic shapes for the rocky cave parts - nicely spikey in places
+ It's long - feels really satisfying to get through level of this length
+ Cool story that motivates you to keep at it
+ Sewer mutants = hilarious!
+ Great Industrial design in the generator area and vents
+ Vents are great fun to get around
+ Timed Gas area was very tricky at first but fun to figure out
+ Long winding maze like cave areas
+ tentacles look great as vines
+ really precise platforming with long jumps and lots of spikes - yikes!
+ coming back to the elevator at the end was nice - teased the goal.

I only have two minor complaints.

- the rat - argh! hardest part of the whole thing. I got through eventually but I think your going to turn off a ton of mainstream players here. If you ok with that - don't change a thing. Otherwise you may want to give a little more time to get through.
- After you come up to the surface it's a bit flat. After such a rich environment below it's sort of a visual letdown up on top. Just my personal opinion though and it in no way affects the fun or challenge of the level overall.

For a first level I'm impressed as heck. Really challenging in places and nicely designed. I'm looking forward to more levels from you. 5 stars & hearted. Thanks for sharing it!

rtm223
08-17-2009, 09:14 PM
Quick question: If I'm on cool pages with no glowey thing around my level, does that mean I've stuck?


@mistervista, I can understand those cracks are awkward - once you get used to moving arounf in cracs like that it's kinda fun, you have to use a mixture of wiggling and jumping to get around, but yes I can see how it would be annoying for some people. It's also very difficult to edit so I don't think I'll be able to change it. Thanks for playing and thanks for the compliments.

I'll get some picks up of the tentacle in create mode later in the week - I think there are 6 winches and a piston moving it around, with a little logic box doing the control :)


@morganna: thanks for playing. For the minor points - you've completely misunderstood the rats. I've updated with extra hints but that section will mostly not work with more than one player so it was unlikely it would ever make sense on your first go :p

I think I've freed up enough thermo to do some sprucing on the ending, I completely agree that it looks naff. My aim would be to add detail into the building and use multiple layers on the grass (I hate the flat, 3 layers wide thing). Is there anything in particular you could recommendthat would be simple and easy to enhance it?



Updates rolled in today:

Patched up where coyote_blue fell of the level
patched up where ungreth fell of the level - if anyone else feels like falling of the level can they please let me know about it ;)
Ditched that section towards the end of the caves and added a particularly tricky combo with a trap for those rushing :p It's a bit rough and ready but it's freed up thermo for 4:
Added a counter on the rat trigger to give different, more explicit text after three fails

Morgana25
08-17-2009, 10:22 PM
Yup no outline means your stuck (at least until your 7 days are up)

Warmer lighting or more natural colors would help on the surface area. Also don't forget you have those lovely thin layers which can help make an object feel "deeper" if you shade it right. You can also mix up some of the decorations available (thermo permitting)

Trindall
08-17-2009, 11:17 PM
[My apologies for those who don't like to read long posts. I write long and over-think and sometimes that comes out in these posts.]


Iíve read through this level thread to try and not repeat too much what others have said and also get a good sense on the previous discussion. I only played through once late last night, taking my time, and Iíd like to play through again to improve my score and review my initial impressions but here is feedback from my first time.

To preface the feedback I want to say that this is an amazing level that was fun to play for many reasons and think youíve created an outstanding platforming experience. In general terms youíve done a very good job with the set design, lighting and decoration as well as creating discreet level areas that offer different challenges, tone and that transition fairly smoothly from one to the other.

I think that the narrative structure got a little muddy as I got to the research facility and started exploring. I went upstairs to the gassy room, got the text about it being a bit overdone but hopefully worth it, went down, down stairs got the messages about the bridge motor and then I was back on track following the intended path.

I know that this bit of open world exploring is intended in the design but I wasnít sure about the gassy pipe room as I thought that maybe If I went to a different section I may trigger an event that would clear the gas but if I tried to cross the chasm on the right I may not be able to get back so I goofed around a bit before I committed to the chasm. This may have simply been a case where I wasnít reading the text too carefully.

Iíll go through my notes a bit or Iíll miss some parts; A few wonky bits I noticed.


--I got stuck in a crack and had to suicide to get out. The section of broken girders and columns above the section where you encounter the tentacle for the first time there is a path that leads into the research station. In the last few jumps before you get in there is a crack to the right that the player can get into. (Hey I was looking for a hidden bubble cache.)

The shape of the bottom of the crack was such that my player was stuck in the Ďfree fallí animation constantly and I couldnít get control long enough to try jumping down out of the crack. This may not happen every time a person jumps in the crack so this may not be a consistent issue.

--I see a patch of square dark matter that is in a thin rear layer. After going through the crushers and lowering the elevators you can stand on it and the camera view rotates left to focus on the gas vents. Above the second vent up near the ceiling the dark matter can be seen. I donít think this an issue either but Iím bringing it up.

--As I was finishing up the level and got back over the chasm to the elevator section I immediately went upstairs to the gassy room as I was sure itíd be clear now. It was and I lost quite a bit of lives getting past the two emitting/de-emitting gas clouds. I was happy up to that point as, even though I had died an insane amount of times prior, my score was nearly in the 14K range and I was hoping to keep it but I died so much in this room that my score dropped about 7K.

I wanted to get into a secret space from that room but I had died so much that I didnít want to spend the last bit of my score looking around so I continued. Imagine my surprise when I drop down back in the elevator corridor. Huh? Couldnít I have just walked in the bit of hallway and avoided the gas room. Of course I couldnít have, you would have had an event block that walkway off, maybe an aftershock dislodges the rest of the floor or some such.

However I missed out on that even as I went straight upstairs. Oh well, Iíll check it out on the next play through.

Iíd like to talk a bit about the things that I liked as well and the level in general.

I think it is interesting that you use a combination of score bubbles and empty prize bubbles. Since you can easily resize the score bubbles to be as large as the prize bubbles Iím guessing that you did it to break up the sound effect? Possibly to break up the score houndís experience and expectation?

There are so many great scenes and sequences in this level I canít list them all. I had no problems with the rat sneaking sequence and the intended action needed to pass was obvious. I did try running to see the rats and thought they were so much fun I had to activate them many times. The run at just the right speed to let you almost escape before they get you and the jump near the player is a very good touch.

The tentacle sections are very well done, excellent work on the timing and animating. Youíve done great work on the scripted sequences such as the breaking/crumbing sections, the falling gas vent, falling stairs or the generator room. All simple tech but put together with great timing and tweaking and they worked out great when I played them.

The research station and the rubble of the man-made sections of the first half of the level are well done and youíve created earthquake destruction scenes very well.

The bubble collecting in this level is phenomenal. There are so many hidden score bubbles and potential combos and opportunities to die that this level is a score board loverís dream. I can see so many opportunities for replay value on this level as youíve done a great job giving the willing player a large amount of secrets to find. Youíve also set up many enticing bubble combinations if the player has the skill and creativity to get them.

I think the ending is very funny considering the gloom and destruction that comprises the level. (What? No earthquake damage up here?) I think that the sunny, bird-filled ending is in line with the abundant humour on display in the level. (Though the tree and wall seem a bit arbitrary and simple compared to the complexity of everything else. I imagine that is what you could get with the last 0.1 bit of the thermo.)

You have many funny and well presented scenes and sections and I can see that humour extending to the layout and obstacles in certain areas of the level. I laughed quite a bit while playing, good work.

Lastly, the difficulty of the level was high though not bad or too challenging. Yes there are areas that are more difficult than others but they are created in a way that puts the onus on me to be a good platformer than on you for creating the level poorly. Initially it took a death or two to get used to the jumps needed to get through the pipe/corridor places before the ratís nest.

Later I had used a life or three getting through the crushers and many more getting through the gassy room. Yet in each case you have the checkpoint in a very good location and have infinite lives as well. This really helps take the pressure off and allows the player to be more free with exploring and taking chances they may not otherwise take.

You have made very effective use of the three main layers and the third act, moving through the cracks and crevices of the underground caverns is a great showcase of this work. You keep changing the challenges so that I didnít feel anything was overly repetitive.

This level is a great level for those who enjoy platforming, challenge and an immersive environment. You will have many players who are put off by the difficulty and as such I donít see this level being as popular as ď50 trophies in 7 secondsĒ but pandering to the mass market isnít always advisable.

I didnít ever really get stuck at any point, the solutions to each puzzle was soon clear after a bit of poking and prodding so Iíd like to commend you on your level. The level is a lot longer that I was expecting considering the amount of tech built into the level and amount of decoration. Great work on that aspect as well.

It may be too long, again, for some players but I think this is really up to you as a creator and deciding what demographic you are wanting this level to appeal to.

This is all that I have from the first play. Iíll try to get back in the level to see the changes youíve made and to have more fun in another night or so.

Cheers.

rtm223
08-18-2009, 08:48 AM
Well I got up this morning to see >400 plays, >50 hearts, 4 people playing right now, I've jumped from page 12 to page 6 of cool pages AND I've got my first H4H comment (I was getting worried that I was being shunned by the H4Hers for a while there ;)). This is more than I expected Setbacks to achieve in it's entire lifetime, so thanks again for everyone who has played, given feedback, recommended, or in any other way helped me with this project.


Trindall, thanks for that mighty feedback - I really appreciate the detail.

I may change the text in the pumping room to explicitly say there is nothing to do there, first time round. I can see how that section might slow people down, but I think the text there in general does push towards moving forward. Most of the rest of the level is very linear, but due to the backtracking nature of that section there is little I can really do other than completely block off the room and free it up later somehow. The gas made sense - pumps with cracks leaked gas, when they switch on the room clears slightly. Well it nearly makes sense :p


The shape of the bottom of the crack was such that my player was stuck in the Ďfree fallí animation constantly and I couldnít get control long enough to try jumping down out of the crack. This may not happen every time a person jumps in the crack so this may not be a consistent issue. Nope it happens every time. I'd forgotten about it, but seeing as it's kind of a punishment for exploring (which I want to encourage), I'll set it on fire :D


I see a patch of square dark matter that is in a thin rear layer. After going through the crushers and lowering the elevators you can stand on it and the camera view rotates left to focus on the gas vents. Above the second vent up near the ceiling the dark matter can be seen. I donít think this an issue either but Iím bringing it up. It's not an issue but I don't want it there, I'll investigate this.


I was happy up to that point as, even though I had died an insane amount of times prior, my score was nearly in the 14K range and I was hoping to keep it but I died so much in this room that my score dropped about 7K. Jackofcourse said the same thing about this. I think I definately will slow down the sequence on the emitters here - if nothing else the points combo is ****-nigh impossible to achieve.


Huh? Couldnít I have just walked in the bit of hallway and avoided the gas room. Of course I couldnít have, you would have had an event block that walkway off, maybe an aftershock dislodges the rest of the floor or some such. ;)


I think the ending is very funny considering the gloom and destruction that comprises the level. (What? No earthquake damage up here?) I think that the sunny, bird-filled ending is in line with the abundant humour on display in the level. (Though the tree and wall seem a bit arbitrary and simple compared to the complexity of everything else. I imagine that is what you could get with the last 0.1 bit of the thermo.) Lol, the nice tree etc sits directly above the speach bubble that says "wow, the earthquake really tore this place up" - makes me chuckle. I'm working on the ending. I spruced up the inside of the building only to have all my decorations vanish. AGAIN :grr: I'll redo this and then I'll move onto the tree and see about improving the look.

With regards to me not appealing to a mass market, it's never been my aim and long before actually experiencing the publishing exprerience I was arguing against attitiudes that aim or try for cool pages, or go out of their way to be popular. Whilst I'm totally stoked that people are enjoying my creation (see opening paragraph), I'm not playing this game for recognition or to gain fans or for an ego boost (god knows I don't need that) or any other extrinsic reward. I'll create what I want to create and without compromise. I was concerned that I was going to take a beating in the ratings and did some damage limitation on my publishing strategy (locked for 12 hours) to prevent that, but I'd never compromise the actual creation. Otherwise I could never be happy with the result - I'd never able to pour as much of myself into a project and there's no way I could have spent 4 months on a compromised creation.

But still, getting the plays and hearts and all the extrinsic stuff is certainly a cheeky bonus :D Thanks again to everyone who has played, commented, hearted, etc.

blizzard_cool
08-18-2009, 10:50 AM
With that amount of plays you got your first H4H comment!?
Dude yesterday I published my level and with 4 stars, 4 hearts & 14 plays it had 3 H4H comments :mad:

Well, let's start. Pros:
- the looks
- the design
- the high speed chase with the rats. Compliment on the looks ;)
- or the stealth way....
- the octopus monster
- I really like those vent boxes
- GREAT destruction effects! Seriously those were my favorite parts of the level. They were so well made.
- the length
- so much paths and secrets
- great use of the layer changing when jumping down
- the generator room looked sweet!

Well I loved probably alot more stuff but I forgot my pen & papper to write 'em down. Still:
:star::star::star::star::star:, heart & brilliant

Oh and a lot of the jumps are kind of.... well you get stuck on them. Some were just hard like the generator room...

rtm223
08-18-2009, 12:02 PM
With that amount of plays you got your first H4H comment!? I KNOW!!! My tech demos got more than that within an hour. I was starting to feel really left out :p

You did have me a little worried there with all the pros prefixed with a minus ;) But then I realised! Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.


Oh and a lot of the jumps are kind of.... well you get stuck on them. Some were just hard like the generator room... I take it you found some of the more precise jumps frustrating then? Think yourself lucky, the generator room used to have dripping acid so you had to contend with that as well as the momentum jump! But that made burnvictim cry so I took it out. The generator jump isn't too bad - I found that easier than the spinning wheels you grab and slingshot yourself, but each to their own.

Thanks for playing. You after feedback on cardboardia?

hilightnotes
08-19-2009, 12:54 AM
I loved this level! Fantastic stuff. I hardly even noticed you used any layer glitching, but that just goes to show how seamlessly everything was integrated!

I really like how you felt like you could explore a bit and there seemed to be multiple paths, although I'm not sure if there really were :p

rtm223
08-19-2009, 01:07 AM
Haha, there is no layer glitching :p Just the normal 7 layers - which is 3D. I just added it to the title because a whole bunch of other levels with the suffix "in 3D" got added to the showcase. My little private joke :p

In a couple of places there are multiple paths and shortcuts, but only a bit - it's very much linear, but through the magic of storytelling I can make you believe otherwise.....

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for playing :)


Significant updates: I made the crushers and the pumping (gas) room easier. But not a lot easier.

BSprague
08-19-2009, 01:54 AM
I've already given you my rave review via PM. I'm just dropping by to say that I finally finished it. I had a decent score (~20,000), but I was offline when I got it so it didn't go through. It's still a :star::star::star::star::star: level. :)

hilightnotes
08-19-2009, 04:32 AM
*Bonks self on head*
Duhr, don't know why I didn't catch the joke in "3d - lolz" :p

That explains why I didn't even notice it! :D Seamless indeed....
I also really loved how you had some scripted but well-integrated moments where the ground would give out and such. Very immersive.

rtm223
08-19-2009, 07:25 AM
@Bsprague. Yeah... That old chestnut eh? I did get a really awsome score, it's just you can't see it... :p

Nah thanks mate and thanks for the help during the beta :)

lol @ hilightnotes

ladylyn1
08-19-2009, 09:30 AM
Ok, I was prepared for this level to be difficult but in some places it really did get frustratingly difficult.

I did finish the level- although i took me almost an hour- and i loved the whole idea of getting the lift working.

But I didn't like the caves: they were really hard to walk in, often i didnt know where to go, at one point i fell down and had to redo an entire section and they went on for way too long- they just didnt play well. I would suggest reducing the length of this section, making the cave paths wider and perhaps making it more obvious where u should be heading.

On the plus side, the level looked good. I loved the section with the rats (good use of a PTD never goes amiss) and the joke about the zombies. Also the main lift itself was very well designed.

4 stars this time but I think it could be a very good level and think that if it was less difficult you would get alot more plays and hearts. Thanks!

rtm223
08-19-2009, 10:09 AM
Hi Lyn, thanks for the feedback and for sticking with the level for so long, despite it being frustrating.

I very much doubt I'll be toning down the difficulty of the level any more than I have. The caves are perfectly fair - the jumps are tricky, but you don't have to time yourself with moving objects or anything of that nature, and there are no stupidly small landing platforms or cheap platforming on ice. Anyway, I have received more hearts and plays in the last week than I ever expected to, and those stats are not, in any way, a motivator for me, so I think the level is doing just fine :)

TBH, I'm not entirely sure I understand some of the problems you had with the caves. They are almost completely linear and each of the platforms and grabbable sections are well defined - nothing is obscured behind thin layers or anything and they are filled with camera zones to subtley guide you. Anywhere I thought there was an ambibuity I made sure there were points to guide you as well. The only part where the path isn't mapped out for you is in the maze and well, it's a maze :p

Did anyone else have a problem with knowing where to go, apart from the maze?

I don't know when you played but since I reworked the top of the caves there should be nowhere you can drop down to a previous section and there definately should be nowhere you can accidentally trigger an old checkpoint. Can you explain where you fell? It would be very useful for me to investigate.

Can you also explain your comment about widening the paths as well? Do you mean the platforms are to narrow to land on properly, or are you referring to the cracks?

Thanks again for playing and I really appreciate the 4* considering you didn't really enjoy the experience :)

ladylyn1
08-19-2009, 10:29 AM
Yeah i meant that the maze section was too tricky... just didnt really know where i was heading and all paths seemed to lead to dead-ends. It was also in this maze section where i felt the paths needed to be widened to give more room and moveability.

The part where i fell was just after dislodging the rock in the caves, i passed through the rock's passage and then fell afterwards back down to the beginning of the maze section.

The rest of it though was awesome, just wish the maze and cave area was shorter and less annoying!

rtm223
08-19-2009, 10:40 AM
All the paths do lead to lead to dead ends in the maze :p That's the point of it being a maze lol! I guess if you don't get the plane-shifting idea quickly that would just be infuriating. In fact, did you manage to get through it without planeshifting? BSprague suggested I put a hint in there, but it would need to be on a timer (I refuse to lead players by the hand :p)...

Ohhhh I do know where you dropped down now. I think there was an issue blocking off that drop completely though. You could have popped yourself you know :p

Again, thanks for the nice words, and sorry my level annoyed you :(

ladylyn1
08-19-2009, 10:49 AM
Yeah i got the plane shifting thing pretty quick its just it was difficult to move while in the little gaps... and the drop was pretty long and i kinda slid left on the ground passed an old checkpoint!

rtm223
08-19-2009, 10:51 AM
I'll add a winch to remove that checkpoint then. I thought you couldn't slide that far, but I guess after a long drop you could end up anywhere!

Ungreth
08-19-2009, 12:49 PM
Personally I thought the maze section was excellent. Sure, it confused me a little the first time around, but when I eventually sussed it, I had that smug feeling of the cat who got the cream. I went through this section with other players a few nights ago, and it was amusing to watch them struggling as I raced on up to the top. I agree that you need to smooth things out a little in terms of dead ends that require "popping" yourself to escape though. There are a few of these in the level, and they affect the flow of gamelay.

BTW, congratulations on getting yourself fixed to the cool pages. Well...not you literally, but your level anyway. It's nice to see you having success and recognition, because you truly deserve it.

rtm223
08-19-2009, 01:25 PM
That cat who got the cream feeling is exactly why I was opposed to hinting.

Given the choice between pop yourself and random piece of gas that has absolutely no business being there - I'll make the design decision of pop. But I can't have old checkpoints activated by accident. Now if you actually run up to one, I say that's your own fault not a design flaw, but your case and ladylyn's are bad.

I've pulled the first one in the caves into the abyss and I intend to do similar with lyn's one. Another guy managed to do the same as you Ungreth, but carried on to the second checkpoint in the caves, after the slide. He soldiered on though - I was quite impressed by that TBH.


Thanks, I'm still blown away by how well this has done. I left this morning on ~700 plays and stuck on page 5 or 6. My stint on cool pages ends before I get home today though, not that I expect much change from when I left mind.

Also, stop playing my 1 player only level in multiplayer :grr: you'll break all of my lovely tech :p

Ungreth
08-19-2009, 02:38 PM
Well given the choice between pop yourself and random piece of gas that has absolutely no business being there - I'll make the design decision of pop. But I can't have old checkpoints activated by accident. Now if you actually run up to one, I say that's your own fault not a design flaw, but your case and ladylyn's are bad.

I've pulled the first one in the caves into the abyss and I intend to do similar with lyn's one. Another guy managed to do the same as you Ungreth, but carried on to the second checkpoint in the caves, after the slide. He soldiered on though - I was quite impressed by that TBH.


Thanks, I'm still blown away by how well this has done. I left this morning on ~700 plays and stuck on page 5 or 6. My stint on cool pages ends before I get home today though, not that I expect much change from when I left mind.

Also, stop playing my 1 player only level in multiplayer :grr: you'll break all of my lovely tech :p

Since my playtesting stage mishaps, I've actually had no issues with falling back down to earlier parts of the level and activating checkpoints there. That's not to say it might not still be an issue for first time explorers, but it's not the situation I had in mind with my last post. I was thinking more of the dead end wall cracks you can fall into, like the one on the ascent just before the "wow, looks like the earthquake really tore this place up" text, for example.

Oh, and it's too much fun in 2-player not to try it! You should play your level with someone else and see. Besides, I accepted a long time ago with that putting a "one player only" disclaimer on a level did nothing to discourage people from playing with friends and then complaining because things weren't multiplayer friendly. Hence, with GR1 I zoomed out some camera angles, tweaked the bomb emitter at the freakshow so players could take more than one at a time, and also made a few other subtle changes. There's actually an amusing 2-P lightsaber battle to be had at the freakshow, which I wouldn't have even known about if it wasn't for my online friend Panoca showing me. (If you're interested, you simply bomb the spotlights loose from the big top, then grab hold of them with the jetpack equipped). Anyway, if you ever decide to do some 2-P friendly tweaking, feel free to drop me an invite and I'll be happy to help you playtest.

comphermc
08-19-2009, 02:40 PM
Bravo, Sir! After waiting patiently for a week, I finally got to play it!

Loved it. This is a great, long, difficult, satisfying level you have crafted here (it took you long enough!). I played it twice - once last night for the initial playthrough, and again this morning for a high score run (~14,000 and 3rd place).

The little scripted moments throughout were very well done, and I loved how sometimes an action would occur only once you go past it and then come back. The details were fantastic, and your thermos all appear to be crippled with this one.

I loved how many point nests were scattered about, and I probably spent an hour playing through this morning looking for them all. I think I did fairly well, only missing a few places (I backtracked, A LOT). My score should have been better, but I also died A LOT. It's my own fault, though, as I get pretty impatient sometimes... the difficulty didn't seem to intense. In fact, for me, it seemed about right...

...except of course for that momentum fling on the generator! Naw, not really. The fling to the checkpoint wasn't bad, but I spent about 10 minutes trying to get the fling up to you know where. I was also sad that I mistimed the jump going up the stairs right after this area and missed all those delicious point bubbles up above. The little horrible gas room was also pretty tough. Last night, my score dropped all the way down to 5k, but this morning I managed to get it first try (nice barrel ;)) It was a fun little challenge though, and the room itself was pretty darn cool.

I did notice one area that might cause problems for some. In the area where you have to jump across the huge chasm to get back to the door [to the surface], it's very possible to fall down to the ledge just below this and activate a checkpoint very early in the level. In my initial run, I dropped down here, because I was sort of confused where to go. I saw a checkpoint and popped myself for fear of having to play it over again (oh, the horror!). This only happened because I didn't remember exactly where the door was in relation to this chasm (Was it down there? That gap looks too wide to cross... I'll just drop down and scope it out...). Maybe a simple solution would be to emit a little strip of invis DM blocking this ledge/path below. You've got plenty of thermo to work with, right?

Once on the surface, I successfully... Edited to appease rtm, haha :p The wall seemed a bit out of place, but I realize that you had thermo issues. I would almost suggest axing the wall, and just ending the level. Most people will go for the bubbles anyways (and it makes the top of the tree that much more secretive). Or maybe a little chasm/fracture of the ground that you'd have to jump over...? It would fit better into the theme of "OMG, an earthquake!". I don't know, tough call...

Great level.

:star::star::star::star::star: and a heart. Tagged brilliant and complex.

Ungreth
08-19-2009, 03:00 PM
^ lol, that's exactly what I did first time!

Don't say I didn't warn you, rtm! :p

rtm223
08-19-2009, 03:14 PM
But I fixed that!!! Unless it's reglued itself... Hmmmm. Well that is suposed to not be there after the generator fires. You saw that didn't you Ungreth, that happened, right?

Anyway, do you you wanna just list each and every secret stash Comphy, ruin the fun for everyone why don't you :p


I loved how many point nests were scattered about, and I probably spent an hour playing through this morning looking for them all. I think I did fairly well, only missing a few places (I backtracked, A LOT) I still haven't done a run where I've picked up every stash :p


except of course for that momentum fling on the generator! Naw, not really. The fling to the checkpoint wasn't bad, but I spent about 10 minutes trying to get the fling up the hidden area above the checkpoint. I was also sad that I mistimed the jump going up the stairs right after this area and missed all those delicious point bubbles up above. Ya, that's the point of it. To checkpoint = tricky, to top left = tough, to top right = pretty much luck based :p Stairs is deliberately like that. I'd hope people would spot it first go, but have 0 chance, then subsequent goes would have reasonable chance - kind of a thank you for playing again :p


The little horrible gas room was also pretty tough. Last night, my score dropped all the way down to 5k, but this morning I managed to get it first try (nice barrel ;)) It was a fun little challenge though, and the room itself was pretty darn cool. I need to put up the Pumping Station sign, it seems no one recognises a centrifugal gas pump when they see one. Yesterday I tuned down the difficulty on the gas emitting, but it is still difficult, I normally die on the barrel at least once.


This only happened because I didn't remember exactly where the door was in relation to this chasm (Was it down there? That gap looks too wide to cross... I'll just drop down and scope it out...). Maybe a simple solution would be to emit a little strip of invis DM blocking this ledge/path below. You've got plenty of thermo to work with, right? What should happen here is magic mouth to indicate elevator location, and the checkpoint below should be gone. No invisible dark matter :grr: If you go down there, assuming the checkpoint is gone, you should get deja vu - this is the caves, not the way I wanna go. Plus there's a button to press and bubbles to lead you onto the little elevator and when you get onto the elevator the camera makes a significant change to focus on the vents - there is a lot going on there as hints. But if the checkpoint doesn't go from below, then this sucks.



OK, so if there is one thing I can take as a given, it's that no-one likes the wall... Well I just thought that the "research facility" wouldn't just back out onto the park. Bear in mind it's a research facility for a big international corporation (Central Industrial), and what kinda research do big evil international corperations do in videogames? The kind you don't want anyone to see. Yeah, that kind. Genetics in this case, hence the giant squid and giant rats and mutants in the adjacent sewers. You see, there's a big old, highly-cliched, backstory going on here that no one gets :p I tried to get a branding mark on the tentacle, with the same font as the facility, but it's a mission to sticker it and not look rubbish.

So there would be some kind of fence around the compound, with barbed/razor wire to deal with tresspassers (I did mean to put up a sign to say about tresspassers as well - never happened). The best I could do with LBP was a wall with spikes :p The ending is still in flux so this may change. I like the idea of the chasm - especially as it sits just about in the right place to meet up with the chasm below.

comphermc
08-19-2009, 03:43 PM
There! I edited out some secrets... happy!? :p

About the area below the chasm: I didn't go very far before popping myself. It may be that the checkpoint destroyed itself (I don't remember), but wouldn't it be possible to go far enough that you eventually hit a checkpoint? Unless you destroyed them all? [unlikely].

I don't mean to offend about the wall. It didn't look like a fence to me, but now that you've said that, it makes more sense...

rtm223
08-19-2009, 04:05 PM
Well yeah I'd just expect that if you traveled down into the caves it would become familiar enough that you'd realise this is not the right way... Hmmm. So the first checkpoint does disappear, but the second one is still there. I think I'll ditch that one as well and call it a day. After that it totally stops being my fault as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not offended about the wall, I've said all along it's pretty naff - that was just an explanation of the wall. Also, it's not supposed to look like a fence with barbed wire, cause I don't know how to make a fence with barbed wire in LBP. So I made a wall with spikes :p

rtm223
08-19-2009, 08:10 PM
Hmm it appears that I missed this post.


Since my playtesting stage mishaps, I've actually had no issues with falling back down to earlier parts of the level and activating checkpoints there. That's not to say it might not still be an issue for first time explorers, but it's not the situation I had in mind with my last post. I was thinking more of the dead end wall cracks you can fall into, like the one on the ascent just before the "wow, looks like the earthquake really tore this place up" text, for example. The dead end crack went yesterday after trindall tried to explore in there. I've added fire. All the checkpoints up to the top of the maze now vamouse as well - if you get that far without realising, then you're an eejit.


Oh, and it's too much fun in 2-player not to try it! You should play your level with someone else and see. Besides, I accepted a long time ago with that putting a "one player only" disclaimer on a level did nothing to discourage people from playing with friends and then complaining because things weren't multiplayer friendly.
List of things that can't be made 2P friendly:
1. The sneak sensor
2. The bottomless pit / fade to black
3. The falling vent

Actualy that might be it. The sneak sensor is basically impossible to make multiplayer friendly without explicit instructions - people can't hack in in single player lol. I'll add a 1 player gate at the entrance when I've nailed down everything else.

julesyjules
08-20-2009, 12:14 AM
Loved the platforming in this!

LBP is not the greatest when it comes to exact jumping but you really designed this well, its JUST on the right side of fair, and perfectly balanced for those looking for a challenging adventure level. Like 'Lost Ages', its great for just sitting back and taking your time with it.

Loads of details too, the rats nest, the collapsing platforms and vents, the tentacles - they all add up and its real satisfying when you finally get to that scoreboard. Brilliant stuff!

GEK83
08-20-2009, 02:29 AM
First thing: i hate this kind of scenery,is about taste.. but is'nt a criticism,you need to understand how much this level impressed me.

Imho is perfect.

Great challenge but never frustrating,ever the same action to do but never boring,loooong but not repetitive.
And accurate,freaking accurate in every single platform.

:star: :star: :star: :star: :star:

ps: the rat is epic
pps: if you want FHF try this
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15199
But not feel forced,the fun of play your level it was enough :p

rtm223
08-20-2009, 11:28 AM
Hi guys,

Thanks for the feedback. I did spend a lot of time getting all the jumps just right, especially in the caves, where the slopes and momentum from the previous jump has an impact on the next - hours running around an tweaking with the corner tool lol. It's good to know all that work is appreciated.

@ jules - Kind of the reason why everything is so varied in the level is because it all came around from building distinct set pieces, then worrying about how they fit together later :p I honestly think I got lucky that it didn't end up as a disjointed mess :p

@Gek - glad you could see past the visuals you didn't enjoy and still love the gameplay.

I'll get onto F4F in the next couple of days.

Thanks for playing.

miltonTPS
08-20-2009, 10:15 PM
hey! congrats on your proper level! haha...it is very good, and I played through it yesterday & left a comment...just wanted to say thanks for checking out my levels...IDK if I'm still in the top 10, but I may try again here shortly! I don't know where to begin with a detailed review...it was so long and difficult!!! Just know that despite my occasional da^#! and sh@! at the tv screen, I had lots of fun trying to figure it out...I guess looking back it wasn't TOO hard...lol..It took me about 30 min total

only thing that tripped me up was the wheel (due to my own stupidity, i tried rotating it on the outside fast enough to get to the next part above...I recalled saying "no way"! "are you kidding me"?, then chuckling when all I had to do was, um... go INSIDE the wheel...:)

Also, due to my nature of exploring every corner of a level, I fell back downthe crag at the end, thinking there was a secret in the part below (near the end before you head left and get back to the locked doors...I just popped myself there...good thing you dont lose pts if u pop yourself and come back at an infinite chkpt. ...anyways nice work, and I'll keep an ear out for your next project :)

rtm223
08-20-2009, 11:01 PM
I saw your comment milton, thanks. I think a couple of people have had that issue with the wheel, I considered making some obscure reference to hamsters around that point as well, but it never made the final cut :p

I thought I had successfully that crack with fire - do you mean the one that collapses when you think you are about to make it to the doors? I will prob just have to put a big sheet of fire down behind the scenes in case - it's too hard tweaking that, then firing the generator then testing then rewinding to tweak again.

I played Vector 0.2 a few days ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. I'll play it again and let you know proper feedback. I might have a nother stab at 0.1 as well - I never managed to complete that before!

New project started a few hours ago :p


Side note: I noticed something interesting today, my #hearts on this level is almost exactly the same as the number of people who have completed the level :p

comphermc
08-20-2009, 11:14 PM
Next project started!? I can't wait until December rolls around... :p

Seriously, though, I'm excited. I started a new project today as well, and it's very different from my previous work. Can you say "The Canyon's Throwback"? No white walls and building with a grid for me...

rtm223
08-21-2009, 12:34 AM
December is pushing it. This took 4 months but I'm not counting the month long hissy fit where I couldn't hack it anymore - think mid spring :p

Actually the next one should come along quicker, I've got to suss out a visual style for it and decide upon a difficulty level for the platforming (it's gonna be more cerebral puzzler this time). It should come together quite easilly. End of the year is still likely though :p

I may run the boss fight concept past you at some point soon as well - IMO it's pretty darn cool and I don't think it's been done before :D

rtm223
08-30-2009, 09:06 PM
I just added some prizes, including a Wheeley Good Switch. See OP for detailes of what's available. I'll prob be adding to that list at some point.

comphermc
08-30-2009, 09:29 PM
Awesome, I'm off to collect them (as I really want to check out that wheely switch).

By the way, you dropped this from your OP: [/list]

ladylyn1
08-30-2009, 09:30 PM
JESUS! 4 Months! Thats crazy! Each of my Whichever Way the Wind Blows Levels took me a week! Although MYST was 2 months, but I would never had thought someone would take that long on a level- WOW im impressed! Btw if u get the chance u might want to try out my new level- Whichever Way the Wind Blows- GOLD.

rtm223
08-30-2009, 09:35 PM
Awesome, I'm off to collect them (as I really want to check out that wheely switch).

By the way, you dropped this from your OP: [/list]

Fixed. You'll be kicking yourself when you see how it's made. Seriously.

@lyn. Yep, 4 months. I'm a slow creator, I scrutinise every detail of every aspect of the level and it takes me a LONG time to get anything looking nice visually. Plus the level is insanely big and complex. Without meaning to sound arrogant I don't think there is much out in the community that matches this for scope - I got a comment on the level the other day that said "I feel like I've just played an entire series!" lol.


Yeah, I saw that posted. I've got a few levels I wanna play this evening so I'll probs get round to yours later - I realy enjoyed the other two.

comphermc
08-30-2009, 10:20 PM
I got it, and yes, I am kicking myself, lol. And it works in both directions, no less! Pretty spiffy, but I should've known...

I'm not sure which prize bubble it was in, but I managed to get all but one (I think). Some of them were pretty tough! 85% of them works out to all-but-one in my head... I got the one above the generator, but it's still super hard to reach, lol (actually, was there one there? I thought so, but I could be wrong). And the one right after that, my heart was pounding, hoping I didn't screw it up, which I didn't thank God.

I think I know where the one I didn't get is located, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to get over there. It's to the right of the little crack maze... yes?

BTW, the elevator prize is HUGE. Haha.

rtm223
08-30-2009, 10:36 PM
Oh yeah I probably should have mentioned that some of them are profile-breaking. I could have gone to the effort to strip the elevator down to basics but it just seemed like too much effort.

What haven't you got then? Is it the light randomiser?

comphermc
08-30-2009, 10:43 PM
I dunno, I didn't check them all. It was fun playing through the level again, though. I bested my previous score by like 50 points :p.

rtm223
09-01-2009, 10:30 PM
I got the one above the generator, but it's still super hard to reach, lol (actually, was there one there? I thought so, but I could be wrong).

Moved this, seeing as I can barely get up there now I'm out of practice it seems really unfair :p

Also I removed the infamous Wall the other day and added some other minor updates. Still have to replace The Wall with something else...



Big thank you to incinerator22, for giving Setbacks its 100th heart. Yeah baby.

Incinerator22
09-03-2009, 03:48 AM
LOL, aw shucks. And since your level is about 990 plays maybe I'll get the 1000th play just for kicks :) But about me not actually finishing the level until i hearted, that was because of the crevice that led to the generator that I just didn't see because it was late and I was sleepy... But getting back on topic, what is this wall of infamy that I never got to see?

theonlybub
09-03-2009, 03:52 AM
Your level was amazing an soooo long! I am writing the review right now.

rtm223
09-03-2009, 09:17 AM
LOL, aw shucks. And since your level is about 990 plays maybe I'll get the 1000th play just for kicks :) But about me not actually finishing the level until i hearted, that was because of the crevice that led to the generator that I just didn't see because it was late and I was sleepy... But getting back on topic, what is this wall of infamy that I never got to see?

Lol. The wall of infamy (I think) was a really cool idea. Basically you get to the surface and you're all relieved and it's all bright and nice and there's a tree and a bloody great wall between you and the scoreboard. I thought it was funny... Problem is, the wall was ugly and generally quite naff. Pretty much everyone disliked it, so it went. comphermc suggested a chasm instead, but I haven't decided what to do to replace it...

Incinerator22
09-04-2009, 02:14 AM
sounds funny, but i agree with comphermc, something earthquake related would be nice. And sadly, I did not get the 1000th play, when I got there it had 1014 :(

comphermc
09-04-2009, 02:41 AM
Aw, man, you shoulda left the wheely good switch up there. It would've still been a well kept secret...

A bit off topic, but did you ever check out that one I sent you?

Jagrevi
09-04-2009, 03:35 AM
Actually the next one should come along quicker, I've got to suss out a visual style for it and decide upon a difficulty level for the platforming (it's gonna be more cerebral puzzler this time). It should come together quite easilly. End of the year is still likely though :p

I may run the boss fight concept past you at some point soon as well - IMO it's pretty darn cool and I don't think it's been done before :D

End of the year? I think I can deal with that.

I'm greatly looking forward to more playable content from you.

Powershifter
09-04-2009, 06:29 PM
Wow! This one was definitely hard. Thankfully i was able to score the #9 spot on my first try, but I plan on going back and trying for that 30K score, especially now that I know what to do ;)

Lots of pros on this level, all of which have probably been stated on this thread. I really liked each of the 'scenes' in particular. The only cons I can give is that it was just so stinkin hard! lol But you said that in your level description, so I expected some frustration. The only point where I thought I was needlessly dying was the part where you have to jump up hill through needles - I uploaded a picture of it on your level. I think I died about 10 times there, and yelled out loud a few times...

Anyway, GREAT level! I know you said the end was your weakest point, but I enjoyed climbing that tree and figuring out how to get to the top so I could jump on top of the building. I also thought it was a nice change - it felt "happy" and "easy" as opposed to "dark" and "incredibly hard." Even though it was difficult in many places, I enjoyed the length - I was actually really impressed with how long it was, and yet you still managed to make it look really cool. Nicely Done!

5:star:'s
And a Heart

After all that hard work, I'd really appreciate some F4F on my Real Myst: Channelwood Age - lol, Thanks!! the link is in my signature below.

jackofcourse
09-04-2009, 09:42 PM
Just played this again and got around 12,000. Can easily do better though, I know I missed a lot of hidden stuff and a few pointless deaths. Combos will be better once I know the layout too :) I will be back...

rtm223
09-05-2009, 09:03 AM
sounds funny, but i agree with comphermc, something earthquake related would be nice. And sadly, I did not get the 1000th play, when I got there it had 1014 :(

Yeah, it's the positioning and what's underneath the scene that makes it difficult, plus I really haven't found muhc time to do much creating recently.


Aw, man, you shoulda left the wheely good switch up there. It would've still been a well kept secret...

A bit off topic, but did you ever check out that one I sent you?

Nah I decided that was mean, I've been saying for so long I'd be giving it away eventually, but putting it up there is like I'm say it's available but I'm gonna fight you to get it! I did, I think I just stuck with 4 because it was easier.


Wow! This one was definitely hard. Thankfully i was able to score the #9 spot on my first try, but I plan on going back and trying for that 30K score, especially now that I know what to do ;)

Yeah y'do - no one's even come close to touching Roanoake since release :p


The only point where I thought I was needlessly dying was the part where you have to jump up hill through needles - I uploaded a picture of it on your level. I think I died about 10 times there, and yelled out loud a few times... Think I know where you mean, that is a very hard jump, but there is a checkpoint just before. Oringinally all of the sewer vents stuff in the tunnels was as hard as this jump lol - I toned down the difficulty early on in dev lol :p



After all that hard work, I'd really appreciate some F4F on my Real Myst: Channelwood Age - lol, Thanks!! the link is in my signature below. I'll get on it over the weekend. Thanks for playing :D


Just played this again and got around 12,000. Can easily do better though, I know I missed a lot of hidden stuff and a few pointless deaths. Combos will be better once I know the layout too :) I will be back...

Yeah!! After everyone talking about replay value no one seems to be fighting for the top spot very hard. Some random guy has #2 now :)

CaptainCowboyHat
09-12-2009, 03:03 AM
Golly Moses - this was extremely hard.. and extremely well-made. I'm not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said.. I was kind of curious why there was one checkpoint out of all of them that wasn't infinite (the one right before the sewer mutants). Was there a reason for that, or is it an oversight? Sorry if you've already answered that - I skimmed the thread.

The difficulty was much harder than what I'd usually put up with (I get frustrated easily, which I know is odd coming from someone who gets yelled at for making things too hard), but everything was so pretty and impressive that I had to get through!

:)

jackofcourse
09-12-2009, 02:19 PM
I was on about 17,000 just after the generator part and then died like crazy :(

I found all the hidden places around the generator I think that's what made it :)

I will be back once again...

rtm223
09-12-2009, 02:39 PM
Thie infinate life checkpoints were a last minute addition (yeah originally I expected people to get through on normals and doubles!!), so about 3-4 of them got overlooked. At some point I'll prob go back and make it consistent.

Thanks for playing.

Scalawag
09-16-2009, 05:34 AM
I have been working in the movie/game industry for 20 years now,as a CG artist/designer,so gaming is in my blood,and love LBP to death,for it's style and creativity,along with it's major fun factor....

THis level is top notch,fun,tough,in-depth,creative and a perfect example of what is possible in LBP....

Well done RTM223,congrats on a not just a very good or great level,but a "fantastic" one.lots of fun and I hope to see more from you when at all possible....

Hearted and 5 stars all the way....

jackofcourse
09-17-2009, 06:24 PM
Was well on for the top score then. Found so many hidden areas! Was on around 15,000 in the middle of the caves...then started getting profile full messages popping up at ridiculous times :(

I will have another go soon and get it easy enough now :)

rtm223
09-18-2009, 09:44 AM
Thanks scalawag, glad you enjoyed it :D

Jack: If your profile is close to full you might wanna have prize collection off when playing my level (if you haven't already), some of the tech pieces are rather large!

FYI there are around 30 "secret" / hard to reach bubble zones throughout the level. Happy hunting :)

Incinerator22
09-20-2009, 12:14 AM
Wow this thread is still alive? That's good. I wish your level had more plays. 1,200 plays for one of the best levels we were ever blessed with being able to play is a sin :(

comphermc
09-20-2009, 01:47 AM
I don't think he was aiming for the mainstream crowd, hence the low[ish] number of plays. It is quite a shame, though - I really enjoyed the level. I think most people would skim over what makes the level so great, but for us creators some of the set pieces are mind-blowing. Who else uses demitting techniques so well?

Littlebigdude805
09-20-2009, 02:32 AM
I played this a while ago and forgot to leave a report lol

I got to the part where you work your way up the crack maze in the wall and just hit a point at which i couldnt go any further...:( i looked around incase of the possibility that there was a different way to procede but found none.
but from what i saw this was my favorite level. No detail was spared. No challenge was bland. No dialogue was corny. No time was unspent giveing the player just what they wanted. A grade.

:star::star::star::star::star:

the part were you sneak past the rats theres this just right spot once you enter the tunnel that if you do a short jump the rat will jump over you and 50% of the time you come out unharmed, no biggy.

P.S.
ive seen the term demitting and seen it in action and no matter how many times i think about it i cant seem to figure how it works.

What is demitting? :)
More importantly hows it done :p

sounds like the most useful thing since the sponge.

comphermc
09-20-2009, 03:44 AM
Sorry, thread hijack commencing:


I got to the part where you work your way up the crack maze in the wall and just hit a point at which i couldnt go any further...:(

Try looking beneath you. You can drop into another crack below you in a few places.


ive seen the term demitting and seen it in action and no matter how many times i think about it i cant seem to figure how it works.

What is demitting? :)
More importantly hows it done :p

In the simplest terms, it is where you emit an object in the place you would like it, and then move the emitter off screen somewhere. When the emitter is told to emit a new object, it will "demit" the first object if you have the emitter set to emit a maximum of 1 object at a time. Think of what happens if you have an emitter that is spitting out object faster than are allowed to exist. They start to dissolve away. This is the basic idea.

Anyways, rtm came up with a way to demit objects, and then move the emitter back to its original locating, emitting the object in the original location. I hope that makes sense. Check rtm's signature for a thread about demitting techniques, and check out his level showing them off.


sounds like the most useful thing since the sponge.

Haha.

Littlebigdude805
09-20-2009, 04:19 AM
hahaha you know five seconds after i posted that i thought that exactly then thought " oh it couldnt possibly be that simple:p"

the mind works in strange ways

ill check that out

rtm223
09-20-2009, 09:36 PM
@incinerator: Comphy is right, it's not a level that most people will appreciate. A lot will find it too hard or too long and a lot won't appreciate the complexity of what's going on behind the scenes. In addition to that it's not a level where you get to the end and then hit the replay button - it's too long and grueling for that. I still find the # of plays staggering, and I'm really happy with how it has done :)

@littlebigdude: thanks. You're prob halfway to 2/3s of the way through, so there is still some more cool stuff to come! The planeshifting thing is a little awkward, it's not something you normally see in LBP. Sorry that bit caught you up - lemme know what you think of the rest of it when you get through.

I have two levels about emitters - one is an actual demo, the other one has some logic devices you can use and a bit of info on which to use when.

jackofcourse
09-20-2009, 10:40 PM
I'm curious...what areas use the demitter technique? :)

comphermc
09-20-2009, 10:47 PM
You know the area where you try to swing across the gap, but everything breaks and you have to take an alternate route? See what happens if you die in this part. ;)

See, this exactly proves my point about most people not noticing these things.

jackofcourse
09-20-2009, 10:51 PM
You know the area where you try to swing across the gap, but everything breaks and you have to take an alternate route? See what happens if you die in this part. ;)

See, this exactly proves my point about most people not noticing these things.

It all respawns, yes?

Makes sense! Thought that would have just been done by re-emitting it though. As it doesn't all disappear (i.e moving to another location), it all breaks and then comes back.

Saying that, I don't doubt you :) I'm not great at visualising things, I have to see it/make it for myself! :)

rtm223
09-20-2009, 10:58 PM
If you get your hands on the prize for that section you will see there is a lot of hidden logic that is still around after it all collapses, along with various bits of scenery that are part of the emitted section so it all fits together seamlessly.

I could have done it without demitters, but it would have involved a lot of dissolvable logic an a lot more complexity in terms of linking the emitted section and the non-emited section.

jackofcourse
09-20-2009, 11:07 PM
Fair enough :) Makes me love this level even more. It's ingenuity is design and implementation do make it one of the best around, even if it isn't the most appreciated.

I'm just glad there's people like yourself about who understand the difference between appreciating and liking.

While I know my levels aren't exactly your cup of tea, you can still appreciate them, and I guess understanding the difference definitely helps in how you respond to feedback from the 'average' gamer. (I.e, you know to dismiss it haha :P)

I think you've done extremely well in cutting off that end of the audience though, both in how you've labelled in title wise, and how you've warned people what it is like in this thread.

It's something I'm definitely experiencing with my new level, the visuals and atmosphere are defintely not to everyone's liking, but getting the 'average' player to understand the difference between appreciating and liking is no easy task!

I feel I may have slightly digressed there, to bring it back around...in all aspects of this creation; visuals, logic, gameplay, AND promotion, you have outdone yourself :)

Incinerator22
09-20-2009, 11:47 PM
Seeing your level makes me hate the leveling system though. Maybe you should hire lemonandgravy, with his techniques you'll have 50,000 plays by the end of the day. lol. I must say though, you sure have determination. I'd like to think I'm a great creator, Im just way too lazy and get bored way too fast. Then again, some of the best creators in lbp, who haven't published any levels at all, have that problem too. Its the ingenuity and determination that sets us apart, which is something you excel at :)

rtm223
09-21-2009, 01:02 AM
TBH I think a lot of stuff in that level will go unnoticed by everyone. Stuff like the cameras in the rat tunnels. Above and below the cameras are on player trackers, because I couldn't get the angles quite right if I didn't. Silly stuff like that where it's massively overengineered to get a tiny improvement.

I don't think many people will understand the difference jack, it's not really until you start mingling with other creators and really putting a lot of effort into your creations that it kind of twigs how much effect you can have on others, just through your ratings. Otherwise you just think of it like films or music or other games - where you might reasonably have a reaction like "that's ****", just because it wasn't your cup of tea, but your opinion doesn't really have an effect on a real person, so it's not so bad.

Rogar
09-21-2009, 10:04 AM
Well, I managed to get to the end at the second attempt (you might want to change the second checkpoint to infinite lives for suckers like me ;) ). I had a lousy score though, from dying a hundred times. Honestly, if this were any random level I ran into online, I would have given up at the bit where you climb the moss over the cactus, and slide right into another cactus. For some reason I just couldn't jump over it. Then I left the PS3 alone for a while, came back, and did it in one go. :D

I think the level looked great. I'm not a fan of the dark, rusty, run-down look, but you did a great job of it, very varied and I loved how just about everything seemed to break down as I touched it. As I said, it was difficult, but I haven't played much recently so I'm also a bit rusty. Some interesting challenges though, love that crack maze. :)

I have two suggestions, though. First, there were areas like beyond the manual bridge control where I felt I was making leaps of faith. A bit more light might help to see where you're going. Secondly, I would tone down the magic mouths. The basic idea of talking to yourself works, but it could be better implemented with fewer speech bubbles.

Teebonesy
09-21-2009, 11:05 AM
Wow, I have to say, this level frankly kicked my ***. But because it was you, and because many of the ideas and gameplay were so novel, I kept it up. Unfortunately, fate had something else in store for me, as I seem to have stumbled upon a level-ender. I was pretty deep in, sometime after that cramped-up vertical maze, at a point where falling into the pits caused the screen to go dark. The problem was that when I respawned, the global lighting didn't adjust itself. The level stayed pitch-black and I was unable to see anything. I had to quit out, and the sheer difficulty it took me in getting there had me too fatigued to try again. so some other time, I'll have another go at it, when I'm feeling fresher, possibly just after eating something zesty.

rtm223
09-21-2009, 12:10 PM
@rogar: I'm not sure where you mean about the leaps of faith... are you actually in the caves at this point or on the way in? I'm also not sure how much I could reduce the number of speech bubbles - I do think it's a bit text heavy when you first get to the elevator and just after that, but most of the rest was necessary for narrative flow and hints, but I'll have a look into it - I haven't played in a good few weeks so the text is a littel hazy in my head.

I do need to do an update to make all of the checkpoints infinate as well - I forgot about that.

@Teebonesy: Arrrrgghhh! I'm so sorry. I thought I'd checked every checkpoint and made sure it had a glt on it. I'll have to go back and double check them all. I really hope this isn't a GLT failing to fire error :(

Thanks to both of you for playing and your feedback :)

jackofcourse
09-21-2009, 01:01 PM
Reading that has made me remember two areas which I wasn't keen (mainly because I get battered by them every time!)

The one that was just mentioned where you slide down and then have to jump spikes straight away, while there's no doubt it is possible, sometimes it feels like a little luck is involved and it's rather hit and miss.

The other, I think it's just before that and you have the green spikes above your head and below you, and you can't do a proper jump because of the ones above you, so you have to do a little hop, but because the spikes at the bottom are quite wide, it's very tricky to make it. (This part is right after a checkpoint, If that helps you know which I mean).

Not saying them need to be changed or anything, they were just the two sections where I thought 'oh god this is where I lose all my hard work on the points' when I got to them on replays. For me they were the only two parts that bordered on frustrating and felt like they needed a little bit of luck.

Oh another thing...on the crashing elevator...the bit of rock that flies off and lands next to it at the bottom, that killed me when I was on for a ridiculous top score...at that point, well let's just say I wasn't your friend! haha :)

Rogar
09-21-2009, 02:40 PM
Not saying them need to be changed or anything, they were just the two sections where I thought 'oh god this is where I lose all my hard work on the points' when I got to them on replays. For me they were the only two parts that bordered on frustrating and felt like they needed a little bit of luck.

I think I was in the 3000 points before that slide, got quite a few secrets but deaths as well. After the slide I don't have a figure, but I finished something like 600 or 700. :blush:


@rogar: I'm not sure where you mean about the leaps of faith... are you actually in the caves at this point or on the way in? I'm also not sure how much I could reduce the number of speech bubbles - I do think it's a bit text heavy when you first get to the elevator and just after that, but most of the rest was necessary for narrative flow and hints, but I'll have a look into it - I haven't played in a good few weeks so the text is a littel hazy in my head.

If I remember correctly, on one occasion I was descending into the caves, jumping from left to right (second time?). It might also have to do with my tv settings, I have it on energy save, so it has lowered backlights.

About those bubbles, I just felt like I was stating the obvious to myself sometimes. Some stuff that was in two bubbles might have sufficed with the first bubble.

Teebonesy
09-22-2009, 10:10 AM
@Teebonesy: Arrrrgghhh! I'm so sorry. I thought I'd checked every checkpoint and made sure it had a glt on it. I'll have to go back and double check them all. I really hope this isn't a GLT failing to fire error :(

Uh oh... I hate to say it, but I know for sure that when it happened, it wasn't my first death at that checkpoint. Although, for the life of me I can't remember if my other deaths were the result of pitfall or not. Easy enough to test that though.

this is definitely one doozy of a stage though. What I would consider a "wheat from the chaff" level.

Now, if you please, I shall escort myself to the "chaff" bin.

manny_wtk
09-23-2009, 09:11 PM
i've just played this level earlier, i loved every minute of it. makes me want to go back and find those prizes...and i will. maybe after i find them all, i'll go back and play it just for fun. this is the kind of level i want to play over and over and know it will never get old. 5 starred and hearted. you deserve 'em.:p

Incinerator22
09-23-2009, 10:34 PM
Did you see my comment? Im not normallly one to get mad but i was playing your level and got 17,000 going up the elevator but right at a moment when i was jamming on the x button my stupid friend invited me!!!!!! :mad::grr:!!!!!!

I managed to do good on my second playthrough too, but only got 15,000 :(

rtm223
09-25-2009, 11:25 AM
Well I did try to work out where you fell. But every checkpoint near a fade to black spot has a GLT on it. THe only way I can see it happenening is if you a) skipped a checkpoint (which I doubt) or b) the GLT didn't fire. If I remember correctly GLTs that have previously had a switch attached don't trigger by prox, so that might be the issue. I guess I'm gonna have to spend an hour or so throwing myself off cliffs this weekend :p

Well if I can drag myself away from the distraction of building rediculous vehicles and bring my other project out of limbo, I think it'll be something much more to your liking :)

@incinerator: I did see your message - I can imagine how frustrating that woudl have been! You're pretty high up the leaderboard though (4th is it?) so that's pretty good :) I also noticed jackofcourse seems to be going for it too, after dominating the "OH NO" series :)

jackofcourse
09-26-2009, 04:51 PM
22,000 now...it climbs everyone time I have a go. I'll have the top score soon enough just need to cut out a few of the silly deaths.

rtm223
09-26-2009, 05:39 PM
Would it annoy you if I went in and beat it as soon as you do get to the top?

jackofcourse
09-26-2009, 05:45 PM
What do you think is the highest score possible again?

rtm223
09-26-2009, 05:53 PM
I'm pretty sure it's over 30k - back around release time I think I managed to break 31k with a couple of deaths and fumbled combos.

I was playing earlier today to try and find teebonesey's broken checkpoint (I couldn't :( ) and realised the level is now harder than I remember :p Last time I actually played through was over a month ago I think.

comphermc
09-26-2009, 06:08 PM
and realised the level is now harder than I remember :p Last time I actually played through was over a month ago I think.

Now you now how we feel, you big jerk! :p

Just a quick question, as I haven't played it in a few weeks, is it possible to get the bubbles on platform where the ledge falls out from under you? My intuition says no, but I could be wrong. (it's fairly early in the level)

Also, there was one bubble cache that I have no idea how to get to. It's in one of the crevice maze areas, off to the right. I can see it, but can't work out how to get to it.

I suppose I shall have another go...

Edit: Wow! 156 posts in your level thread. Congrats! You're second to Azure Palace.

jackofcourse
09-26-2009, 06:16 PM
Now you now how we feel, you big jerk! :p

Just a quick question, as I haven't played it in a few weeks, is it possible to get the bubbles on platform where the ledge falls out from under you? My intuition says no, but I could be wrong. (it's fairly early in the level)

You have to use the tentacle to throw yourself up there after it's collasped...it's a pissin' nightmare! :P

Also, doesn't reveal how to get the other secret places Rtm...I had to work them out so does everyone else! :P haha.

Incinerator22
09-26-2009, 06:22 PM
You're level is the perfect amount of difficulty for me... More people should make levels like this because when you play lbp for years and you actually want a challenge their aren't many levels that are good, challenging, but fair at the same time. You're level has done wonders to my jumping abilities, and I must thank you :)

I remember early in the game that lbp talked about tapping for a smalll jump and holding X for a giant leap, but all my jumps were the same, i just pressed x! You sure straightened me out though!

comphermc
09-26-2009, 07:08 PM
Alright, I'm back. I failed to best Jack or Roanoke, but I got 3rd place with just under 21,000.

I think 30,000 is possible, but it'll be tough. I think I found all of the bubble caches now, thanks to Jack's hint and finally not being dumb on that other one I mentioned. I actually aced a large part of the level, and only died in 5 places:


Jumped too high into the gas early on.
Tentacle got me once when I was trying to get above.
The half Jump/hop spike section got me twice.
The leap of faith over the large pit near the end, I really dropped the ball. I had 24,000 at this point, but got squished by the rock when it fell, and came up short on the jump 3 times.
In the barrel rolling, gas coming out everywhere room, I fell once.


It was that stupid leap of faith section that ruined it for me. I even got the super secret generator spot on my second try!

I also noticed that you got rid of the fence. Looks good. ;)

rtm223
09-26-2009, 07:42 PM
I'm pretty sure stephen Fry talks about analogue jumping in "First Steps", but yes, it's very rare to see analogue control required in this game. It's the reason why I wanted to incorporate it, along with the planeshifting and a few other "rarely seen" dynamics.

As for the tentacle secret, it's no where near as hard to get to as the top corner of the generator - I hate trying to get up there. But yeah, every point bubble in the level is gettable - I didn't have the thermo to fritter away on teasing you :p

I did however find the thermo to add an AND gate and a magic mouth, so the level has new, never before seen dialogue!!! Yay!! This means you all have to go back and play again to try and spot where it is... I'm gonna just go and check it's not censored lol.


What's this leap of faith? Do you mean to get back to the lift? Its not really a leap of faith, you can see the other side, it's just bloody hard :p And how many posts does azure palace have? I'm betting he's got a hell of a lot more hearts and plays than me as well :p



Max score is >35k
I just got 36 on my moon. But TBH I think that anyone getting over 30 is definately deserving of a cookie :)

.

comphermc
09-26-2009, 07:52 PM
Azure Palace has 391, so you've got a ways to go. :)

Yeah, I know it's not a real leap of faith, but it feels like one since you have to leap and drop so far.

Maybe someday I'll get 30k+, but not today. Once is enough! :p

Did you manage to ace it?

rtm223
09-26-2009, 08:55 PM
Did you manage to ace it?

Oh, hell no! (imagine it like Snoop Dogg would say it :p) I have never aced it. But I'm guessing you don't get all of the 10x and x8 combos? Some of those you literally have to jump exactly right, or planeshift at exactly the correct moment, to string the lot together. That's where I made the really fiddley bits of gameplay that I thought were too hard for the level proper.


I was considering making a aced level prize and a collected all prizes prize and have them as two parts to a sticker switch that would give people a copyable version of the level. I may still do this if I can ever be bothered :p

comphermc
09-26-2009, 11:45 PM
No, I only managed a handful of x7 and x8's. No x10's, although I can see where they might be possible.

waD_Delma
10-04-2009, 05:09 PM
This level fantastic and I instantly 5 stared and hearted this gem.
There are so much excellent logic stuff going on background.

Pross

+ There are plenty of brilliant effects: Falling vents/stairs, lots of sound effects and fade to black if you fall.
+ Level is unbelievable long. How could you fit it in thermometer?
+ There are lots of secrets and score bubbles are in good order.
+ Good story whit little amount of magic mouths.

Conss

- When I was playing first time I got stuck in second past of the falling vent. There was a vent missing.
- The end is kind a lame to this masterpiece. You could end it in the lift whit very bright light to simulate
adaption on darkness and that would highlight fact of being underground so long.

I will wait more superior work from you.

rtm223
10-05-2009, 12:36 AM
Hey, thanks for playing and thanks for the feedback :)


- When I was playing first time I got stuck in second past of the falling vent. There was a vent missing. Ahhh, this I know about. Occasionally you can die and respawn fast enough that you trigger the respawn of the scene before the previous version has completely collapsed, this makes the emitter fail and you get nothing. I got it down so you have to be very quick to trigger it, but it's not perfect. I'm sorry this happened to you.

If this ever happens to anyone again, run back to the previous checkpoint and then the vent shoudl respawn fine.


- The end is kind a lame to this masterpiece. You could end it in the lift whit very bright light to simulate
adaption on darkness and that would highlight fact of being underground so long.
I originally had the level ending in the lift, because fitting in the ending was breaking the thermo. It just felt depressing TBH. There was also another hazard to cross at the end, but no one but me liked it so that went as well.

It's interesting you mention the bright lighting. I was originally planning on having that when the generator comes on - like you've been in the caves for ages, then you come out and switch on the power. This had to be dropped as well sadly.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, are you wanting F4F?

SHENOA77
10-05-2009, 01:00 AM
Yes, great job on this rtm223. I don't think I've ever laughed so hard in a long time particularly in the beginning scene with that sneaky ole rat. It took us awhile to figure out how to beat the darn rodent but we eventually figured it out. My sides were hurting so badly. This is a great level to bring friends to, hilarious multiplayer moments. I have yet to try to beat this 1P, and try to get highscore in light of those sweet combos I've been reading about in the previous posts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=802&pictureid=7063

FRANKMAN1
10-05-2009, 03:09 AM
Only 3 words... SUPER AWESOME LEVEL but my sackboy is crying cuz in all his sack life this level give him the worst luck in the world :p...
Great level :star::star::star::star::star: heart and multy path tag... :D

jackofcourse
10-12-2009, 04:07 PM
Just thought I'd have a go and managed top score. 27,430 I ended up with.

I was suprised tbh because I wasn't concentrating properly so I'm sure there were a few secret areas I missed and there was a few very silly deaths. Saying that I managed to get passed all the parts that I usually die on a lot first time so that explains it really! :)

OmegaSlayer
10-12-2009, 06:17 PM
Holy God!
The thread for this level can't manage to die on page 2... :p

Jagrevi
10-14-2009, 02:35 AM
The thread for this level can't manage to die on page 2... :p

Perhaps it shouldn't. ;)

Teebonesy
10-14-2009, 02:42 AM
I will help it live!

Seriously though, I'll revisit this sometime soon when I'm feeling like I have a death-wish, and squeeze myself back to where I was before so I can export a screenshot of the offending checkpoint in question.

comphermc
10-14-2009, 02:42 AM
This thread should stay alive until Setbacks has more plays than Technolegs!

rtm223
10-14-2009, 09:15 AM
This thread should stay alive until Setbacks has more plays than Technolegs!

Hahahahaha :)

Anyway, who's gonna challenge Jack for the title now?

Rogar
10-14-2009, 09:32 AM
Not me, I'm dying all over the place. Under that stress, no wonder I forget about the sneak sensor prize. ;)

By the way, does it use anything from the MGS pack?

rtm223
10-14-2009, 12:22 PM
I don't think so. It's just pure logic so should be pistons / winches / basic switches / dark matter and polystyrene. That said, I don't really think about these things, I really dropped the ball on that one with technoLegs. MM should add a DLC inspector to your captured objects so you can check.

piggabling
10-18-2009, 05:57 PM
I'm not sure if I ever did post on this thread and I don't feel like checking all 12 pages. I'm posting this to congradulate you on creating the sweetest level in all of LittleBigPlanet. Keep it up-please- I want to keep on playing new levels from you for months to come! Great job!

Five stars for you! *****

rtm223
10-18-2009, 10:47 PM
Thank you very much piggabling. I should reiterate to anyone hoping for more like this that any upcoming projects that I have (all on hold right now) are nothing remotely like this level.


Holy God!
The thread for this level can't manage to die on page 2... :p

Looks like a resounding "no"...

:)

Incinerator22
10-18-2009, 10:51 PM
I have a question for the elevator at the end. I thought you used a spotlight, but if you haven't used mgs objects how'd you het it to know you were in the layer of the elevator?

rtm223
10-18-2009, 11:02 PM
The elevator prize must have MGS objects in it then... As I mentioned before, I don't pay a whole lot of attention :D

The rats one shouldn't have any DLC in though. Emphasis on the shouldn't ;)


Edit - in other setbacks-related news, it seems that Frustrating is now one of the dominant three tags, it's overtaken Complex, I think... **** you TechnoLegs bringing this influx of new plays to my level :grr:

Rogar
10-19-2009, 12:18 PM
The elevator prize must have MGS objects in it then... As I mentioned before, I don't pay a whole lot of attention :D

The rats one shouldn't have any DLC in though. Emphasis on the shouldn't ;)

Doesn't matter now, I went on a crazy shopping spree this weekend and got the pack. :)


Edit - in other setbacks-related news, it seems that Frustrating is now one of the dominant three tags, it's overtaken Complex, I think... **** you TechnoLegs bringing this influx of new plays to my level :grr:

Not undeservingly, one might say. Just take pride in it! :P
*run*

rtm223
10-19-2009, 12:43 PM
Yeah I suppose, but when I looked about a week ago, every single published level of mine (bar one I'm planning on deleting soon anyway) has the "complex" tag. Now setbacks is the black sheep :(

Rogar
10-19-2009, 01:04 PM
Look at it this way: most of us here can appreciate the complexity of getting the stuff in Setbacks to work the way it does. Now you're getting more players unfamiliar with the intricacies of create mode, and the complex tag drops. So essentially your level is so complex that it makes it look simple and natural! :)

rtm223
10-19-2009, 10:36 PM
So essentially your level is so complex that it makes it look simple and natural! :)

I'm not sure if that was serious or slightly tongue in cheek, but that's exactly what I was aiming for. I kinda feel that high level tech should be a means to an end when it comes to a proper level, I'm not so keen when it's used for wow factor with a kind of "look what I can do" approach - that's what tech demos are for :)

Cuzfeeshe's golf level is a perfect example IMO. Gameplay mechanics that are simple and intuitive for the player, yet the backend is very, very complex.

Whalio Cappuccino
10-19-2009, 11:42 PM
I'm not sure if that was serious or slightly tongue in cheek, but that's exactly what I was aiming for. I kinda feel that high level tech should be a means to an end when it comes to a proper level, I'm not so keen when it's used for wow factor with a kind of "look what I can do" approach - that's what tech demos are for :)

Cuzfeeshe's golf level is a perfect example IMO. Gameplay mechanics that are simple and intuitive for the player, yet the backend is very, very complex.

I'm still in the process of playing this very fun level, I have found a visible GLT switch though, I really really cannot describe where it is so I have uploaded a picture onto the level.

Don't worry though, I didn't take a picture of the actual visible switch, I took a picture with me pointing with my cute little sackhands in the direction of the switch, you should know where I am located.

Very fun level and after I'm done it'll get a :star::star::star::star::star: and a Heart.

rtm223
10-19-2009, 11:47 PM
Fixed now. Nice spot. That's been there a couple of weeks and no one's noticed :)

Rogar
10-20-2009, 10:53 AM
I'm not sure if that was serious or slightly tongue in cheek, but that's exactly what I was aiming for. I kinda feel that high level tech should be a means to an end when it comes to a proper level, I'm not so keen when it's used for wow factor with a kind of "look what I can do" approach - that's what tech demos are for :)

A little of both :p , but you are absolutely right. I think the best levels play into the expectations of the players. If things work like they would in the real world, there's no need for explanations. This is what the LBP physics engine is supposed to accomplish, and it does so quite successfully, barring a few glitch areas.

CCubbage
10-20-2009, 02:08 PM
I didn't think this level had enough posts on the thread, so I decided to add an additional post.

Great level, lots of fun, having to climb the tree at the end made my hands shake.

comphermc
10-20-2009, 02:18 PM
Great level, lots of fun, having to climb the tree at the end made my hands shake.

Guess you haven't played the new version, huh?

This thread is still way behind Azure Palace... but it's firmly in second place! Now if only the level had a comparable number of plays...

rtm223
10-20-2009, 04:23 PM
Guess you haven't played the new version, huh?

Busted!! He hasn't played in a good few weeks in fact. Bad Feeshe! :)

CCubbage
10-20-2009, 05:18 PM
Busted!! He hasn't played in a good few weeks in fact. Bad Feeshe! :)
Sorry about that... I should have spent the 12 hours necessary to read this thread so I would know about those kinds of changes. And I should have alotted a 20 minute period of time every time I turn on my PS3 dedicated to playing "Setbacks".

I should be spanked.

I WILL go back in and play it again!

Well, this is post #189....

Whalio Cappuccino
10-21-2009, 06:08 PM
Hey I just wanted to point out that it's possible to dodge the rat, maybe you want to keep it? Or maybe you want to force the player to stay silent.

In my case however, I just ran and when the rat came running at me, I ran towards him, he just jumps over me, perfectly.

So yeah, just thought I should put this here.

CCubbage
10-21-2009, 06:27 PM
Hey I just wanted to point out that it's possible to dodge the rat, maybe you want to keep it? Or maybe you want to force the player to stay silent.

In my case however, I just ran and when the rat came running at me, I ran towards him, he just jumps over me, perfectly.

So yeah, just thought I should put this here.
Thats pretty awesome! I love it when there are multiple ways to solve a problem. Maybe rtm223 is even SMARTER than we thought he was....

rtm223
10-21-2009, 09:20 PM
Thats pretty awesome! I love it when there are multiple ways to solve a problem. Maybe rtm223 is even SMARTER than we thought he was....

Uhhh yeah. That's what happened :p Actually I did know about it, but it as inadvertant. I didn't bother fixing it because in all honesty the "wrong" way is harder than the "right" way.

When we get the bigger profile space I may try to move the level into a new level and overcome the 160 hour bug. If I do that I can go back to the old rat mechanic that had far better animation and was uncheatable. If that works I may well just tweak it to make it cheatable again. A few people have genuinely thought that was the way to beat the section and would never have got through it otherwise :p

Anyone seen the vids yet? I put the in the OP but I'm gonna add them here as well. I think this is what's driving the new plays to my level, TBH:

YouTube - LittleBigPlanet | Subterranean Setbacks [1P/Hard] by rtm223 | Gameplay [Part 1 of 2] (HD)

YouTube - LittleBigPlanet | Subterranean Setbacks [1P/Hard] by rtm223 | Gameplay [Part 2 of 2] (HD)

Syroc
10-21-2009, 09:48 PM
Hmm, the last sections of the first video look familiar. Did you release a preview of it month ago or did I playtest it? I distinctly remember those rats, the huge jump where you have to grab onto the moss and the following section.

rtm223
10-21-2009, 09:50 PM
You played the very, very early preview of it back in june (?) when it was much harder :)

Syroc
10-21-2009, 09:55 PM
Aha, I see. Might have to play this version to compare it then. :)

Incinerator22
10-22-2009, 12:10 AM
aw man :( I'm in fourth place but on that outdated video im only im fifth :cry:

LittleBigDave
10-28-2009, 05:03 PM
Wow this level is as close to perfect for my taste as any level I've played, and I don't say that lightly. Things I particularly enjoyed, and would love to see more of in LBP:

- The way all the puzzles and hurdles had a logical place in the world. It's just so satisfying when things make sense.
- The way the game play doesn't feel strictly linear, while still managing to keep you on course. The idea of a free roaming platformer with a beginning and an end is something I really like, and am hoping to find more of. First time through I actually felt like I had more alternative paths to explore than I did, but pulling off that roaming feeling while still keeping me on the narrative is a great trick. And there was still a lot to go back and explore after the first play through.
- The difficulty level. Now that I know how to boogie my little sackboy about, it seems harder to find a good satisfying challenge. This was definitely it.
- The dramatic action moments, like the falling vent scene. That was so slick, and the timing was just right to give my reflexes a chance to save myself while still being surprised at what was happening. Now that I found the demo prize version, and appreciate how complex it was to put together, I am all the more impressed.
- The way all the ceiling grabs, long jumps, and that nook and cranny maze pushed my sackboy to the limits of his gadding. More than once I said "no way I can make that jump/grab, but here goes", and then I did! Wow, I can only imagine the crafting that went in to getting that close to the limit.
- The innovative challenges, like the rats and the generator room. Really fun, especially the way the generator room evolved from one puzzle into another in such a logical way. And with areas like the rats, I particularly liked how Sackboy would give me clues when I wasn't figuring it out for myself.
- The 30+ hidden areas to find. It's so cool to replay this level and find new things.
- The prizes that I actually prize! I love all the clever mechanics RTM cranks out, and I get excited when I find a new one in the level that I can go play with afterwards. Especially these nice annotated demo versions.

Terrific stuff.

robbit10
10-30-2009, 04:55 PM
That was a very, very good level. It beats most of MM's levels hands-down, in my opinion. I really liked the cracks inside the walls which you had to run in. I got lost several times in the level, because there were sections where it seemed like you had to jump down, but you actually had to jump forward and grab a wall. And every jump in the level was fine-tuned in such a way you had to think whether to hold the X and do a long jump, or tap X for a small hop. If you did a long jump at a part where it was too narrow, you would die. Genious. This puts the level above a lot of the other levels on LBP in terms of quality.

But what REALLY puts this level above a lot of the other levels including those of MM, is the advanced logic you put in it. For example, at the part with the rats, if you die several times it pops up a text bubble along the lines of 'Better try sneaking, i don't want to wake up the rats again..' - And the part with the tentacle is another fine example. You are very, very proficient at LBP logic, and most of the logic switches you make are the most thermo-efficient.

Which leads me to a question, could you be so kind to post all the switches you used in that level, into another level that showcases how each of them work? The level you have now that contains a few switches is unpolished, and doesn't contain all of the switches you made. It also doesn't have any tutorials on how to use those switches, or how they work.

I liked the following things the most:
- The introduction
- The text bubbles that seem to come from Sackboy.
- The tentacle in the box. How did you make it follow Sackboy?
- The cracks in the walls
- The gears at the crusher area. It's a very original death :P. It's not often you see a sackboy being crushed between two gears in LBP.
- The part with the rats
- The hidden area's
- When you jump into that canyon the light fades away, very nice.
- The part at the generator where you have to jump on top of the wheel was brilliant.
- The visuals (except for the part where you had to grab the big rock)

Overall, it's one of the best levels i've played in LBP. Five stars and a heart.

comphermc
10-30-2009, 05:45 PM
Which leads me to a question, could you be so kind to post all the switches you used in that level, into another level that showcases how each of them work? The level you have now that contains a few switches is unpolished, and doesn't contain all of the switches you made. It also doesn't have any tutorials on how to use those switches, or how they work.

Good news! A bunch of the logic in the level is hidden in prize bubbles. Happy hunting.

:)

LittleBigDave
10-30-2009, 07:31 PM
Is it currently possible to get all the score bubbles in the tree and on the shaft roof at the end? I understand that some post-launch modifications had been there, and wondered if some of them were now out of reach.

rtm223
11-01-2009, 04:26 PM
Thank you for the feedback guys.

It should certainly be possible to get those points at the end. I haven't changed anything that would affect it. I'll have a little look ASAP and check for you though.

@robin, it's unlikely I'll find time to make a tutorial level breaking down my mechanics. It was quite a lot of work getting the stuff that is already there stripped out of the level to put in prize bubbles in a sensible way. The only thing I might do is to strip out the entire generator room at some point, but that would be a massive prize, and TBH the logic involved is such a mess that I'd rather not make it public - especially not if I had to work out how it works so I can annotate it :p

If you haven't found the existing switches in the level then go hunting for them, most of the cooler stuff is available as prizes as comphermc said.

AgentBanana
12-31-2009, 09:43 PM
Wow, what a brilliant level. I loved the challanges and the theme of it, and some funny humour hidden throughout (when you steal the guys bubbles in his house, that was funny :D).
I liked the part with the rats aswel, and the logic, as someone has noted above me that if you die a number of times a speach bubble comes up. Oh and the difficulty, it was equally brilliant as it was hard. The jumps, grabbing stuff, you had to be extremely good at LBP to complete this level within 3 restarts. But thats not a bad thing, it was extremely good and defined this level apart from the rest of other levels.
No bomb survival n00b could complete this, lol. :)

I can't really say something different from what other people have already said but I can tell you it is a fantastic level, and.. when is your next coming out?

***** stars and a heart from me. (It had already hearted the level before I did which was strange).
It would be much appreciated if you could check out either my 'Journey to the Red Planet' level or 'The Mysterious forest'. Thanks!

piggabling
01-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Woohoo! It's back on page one! :p

I've said it once and I'll say it again; this is an absolutely brilliant level!

thekevinexpress
01-03-2010, 02:34 PM
Just played this with a friend the other day, and the sensor switch to set off the dark GLT right after the part with the elevator falling isn't set to require all. So one of us would jump, fall, the level would go dark with the other person still standing in a safe zone.

rtm223
01-04-2010, 01:25 PM
I can't really say something different from what other people have already said but I can tell you it is a fantastic level, and.. when is your next coming out?

Thanks. As for my next thing, I want to wrap up a OC project with comphermc, gruntosuk and omegaslayer ASAP - I'm really proud of my section in that and think it's probably my best LBP work, even if it is only one room :p I have an individual project to get finished off, but I need to keep on emphasising that neither of these will be anything like setbacks.


***** stars and a heart from me. (It had already hearted the level before I did which was strange).
It would be much appreciated if you could check out either my 'Journey to the Red Planet' level or 'The Mysterious forest'. Thanks!

I'm pretty sure I've already played the mysterious forest. I'll have a look at both and get some feedback for you in the next week.


Just played this with a friend the other day, and the sensor switch to set off the dark GLT right after the part with the elevator falling isn't set to require all. So one of us would jump, fall, the level would go dark with the other person still standing in a safe zone.

I did think about this a while ago, but I wasn't sure how the camera would go with one player dropping down and the other staying up at the top. If it follows the bottom player then it's gointo to look naff. It is a 1-pplayer only level, so any problems you have with 2 players aren't really something I'm too concerned about. It's not level-breaking, if the survivor suicides it will (should) work out OK.

Incinerator22
01-05-2010, 09:58 PM
Thanks. As for my next thing, I want to wrap up a OC project with comphermc, gruntosuk and omegaslayer ASAP - I'm really proud of my section in that and think it's probably my best LBP work, even if it is only one room :p



Is that different from industrial prototyping?

rtm223
01-05-2010, 11:30 PM
Nothing at all like it. Except for a little bit. But not really. At all.

piggabling
01-06-2010, 09:55 PM
Nothing at all like it. Except for a little bit. But not really. At all.

You're making me think rtm.... again :p

As in not the same because it is not a platforming/story-based level or as in it is a concept rather than a full level?

If it really is that secret, I guess I'll have to wait until release time! :)

ApellesJr
01-08-2010, 04:49 PM
I wasn't going to comment on this because I thought it'd be outdated, but I happened to notice the thread is still being posted in, so I thought I'd let you know...

When I played this a few weeks ago, after the elevator falls and you have to jump on top of the vents at the very end, the first vent had completely disappeared haha. It was impossible to continue on...which was very frustrating considering how close i was to the end haha.

Just thought I'd let you know...I'm guessing that this isn't happening very often because more people would be commenting on it.

rtm223
01-08-2010, 04:51 PM
Do you mean the left hand vent had completely disappeared? Or the right hand vent?

jackofcourse
01-08-2010, 04:53 PM
I wasn't going to comment on this because I thought it'd be outdated, but I happened to notice the thread is still being posted in, so I thought I'd let you know...

That's because Rtm won't let it die!!! Always milking it! *Looks at thread title* :D :D

Good luck buddy ;)

rtm223
01-08-2010, 05:40 PM
That's because Rtm won't let it die!!! Always milking it! *Looks at thread title* :D :D

Lol, I would let it die, the title update was like an obituary, but all of y'all keep dragging it back up! I am curious what happened to appellesJr though....


Only 180 posts to go....

poms
01-13-2010, 11:49 AM
One of the few... or the ONLY nomenee I still haven't played xD
I'll play it TODAY xDD
Good luck buddy!

Cpt_Sainsburys
01-24-2010, 08:43 PM
Wow!
This is easily one of the best levels I have ever played. It's Flawlessly polished, Incredibly detailed and packed with complex scenes. I tried really hrad to come up with a fault, but I couldn't. Everthing about the level is perfect - I loved the tentacle and the rats and the maze and lift and drips of deadly gas and the.. - You get the idea. You single handedly inspired me to scrap the level I was Building and Redo it in a more Complex and Hopefully much better fashion. To that end, If you could wait until it's released later this weaker for the F4F that would be fantastic.
I have just one question -
When's the next level coming out?
I actually refered some idiot who'd made a terrible level and tried to rationalise it by saying it was his first level to this today - to show him what a 'Proper' fist level looks like.
:star::star::star::star::star: <3 Creator <3 . Tagged Beautiful and Brilliant.
SP

rtm223
01-24-2010, 09:33 PM
Hey, thanks for dropping by and for the nice words :) As for my next level, I did co-create on Capn SackBeard's Booty (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?21238-Cap-n-Sackbeard-s-Booty-[Beta-Remake]), published under comphermc's PSN. In solo create, I've hit a stalling point on one project and started up another instead, so whenever I get around to completing one of them will be my next release...

PM my for the F4F, or I might miss it :)

OmegaSlayer
01-24-2010, 09:44 PM
Nooooooooooooooooo!
This thread resurfaces again, it won't die!
*tries to stomp it*
:p
Maybe because it has not reaped yet what it deserves. :)

X-FROGBOY-X
03-21-2010, 06:57 PM
Hahahahaha :)

Anyway, who's gonna challenge Jack for the title now?

Yes, I do. :p
I have # 2, off to get #1 hopefully

By the way, I looove this level, so much adventure.

Phosphorus15
06-19-2010, 02:03 AM
Why must this level be so good! :star::star::star::star::star: and <3! I found no cons and the whole level was a pro! I am determined to get #1 on that top scores list! :p Great level!

napero7
07-02-2010, 08:26 PM
Hello, this was intended to go into rtm's visitor messages so the message may confuse you. I didn't bother to edit it. There is some limit of 1000 characters in the visitor messages, that's why.
This comment may offend you, please don't read it if you have back pains or are under the age of 47. :p

For some reason I decided to play your level subterranean Setbacks today, as I hadn't played it yet for some reason, maybe because of that extreem cheez spotlight that encouraged people to stay away from it...

I left a message on the level in LBP... maybe I should write something in the level showcase, but then again, I might be bumping a year old level and even if that is allowed, I wouldn't do it because often people's skills have improved in a year.
Also, my comment is not reviewish or anything so I guess it would be best to leave it here.

I liked that level, it had some ver clever ideas and looked nice... buuut... as the title says, it's hard. I knew that. But it was so hard at parts that I wanted to quit (which is against the moral rules of sackboy unless it's a bad level)
So I completed it and rated it 5 stars and even hearted it but I don't want to play it again, I will have nightmares of that level. Seriously, it took me forever to realize I had to sneak past that rat, I mean... I was so close to run away in front of it that I thought it was possible.

So yeah... I should have just put this in the level showcase... please don't kill me :cry:
And please don't try my levels, they suck. Let's just hope that reverse psychology works...

rtm223
07-02-2010, 10:22 PM
Woah, sackfedora, I didn't even notice that you'd posted here, sorry mate, and thanks for playing :)

@napero: Apparently it is possible to outrun the rat, but it's tough :p TBH, I have really mixed feelings when people say things like "it was so hard I wanted to quit but I didn't". On the one hand I feel guilty for making you suffer, but then on the other hand I take the idea that someone might persevere through the level even though they are struggling with it as a massive compliment :) So thank you, it really does mean a lot to me.

napero7
07-02-2010, 10:29 PM
You? Guilty? For making me suffer?
I thought you were that kind of a guy who laughs uncontrollably when you see someone suffer in a level you made...
Well um... yeah take it as a compliment. It means that I got stuck but I know that there is a way to get out and this level is too good to give up.

rtm223
07-02-2010, 10:35 PM
No, there's no sadism here. The main principle upon which the level was built was that it should be challenging yet compelling enough to make people want to continue, even if the challenge itself was a little too much.