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comphermc
09-23-2009, 01:07 AM
To view this guide as an external document, click here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AeooOG3AHFv9ZGd3dmN0dGdfMmR4dDlqdmhu&hl=en).


http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3392/lbpcthermologopng2.png

The purpose of this tutorial is to be a guide for all things thermo. We hope to teach a few things, as well as clear up some common misconceptions. This should be a community effort in that if you have something to add to the tutorial that is of merit, then I will add it. We shall begin with the simplest of the simple.

What is the thermometer in LittleBigPlanet for?
Put simply, the thermometer in LittleBigPlanet's create mode is a visual indicator of the amount of "stuff" you are allowed to put in your level. Obviously, there needs to be some upper limit for the contents of our levels, or else we could run the risk of overloading and crashing our PS3's. This limit is there for a reason, so there's not much sense in kicking and screaming for Media Molecule to increase the thermo - the PS3 simply cannot handle it. We just have to deal with the limitations and build accordingly. MM recently released a video that teaches about some of the basics of dealing with the thermometer (only a day after starting this thread, no less). While they offer some excellent pointers, they don't cover everything. If you haven't yet seen the video, it can be viewed here:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wouW9v3A_Ng


What the video fails to discuss in detail is the idea that the thermometer is actually several different thermometers. The way the system works, then, is that the highest of the possible thermometers will be the one that is displayed in create mode. We know that these additional thermometers exist by looking at the back of the game box, or by reading the various messages that pop up when your level begins to overheat. We can then consider all the different thermometers that are being recorded in create mode:

LBP Thermometers

Complex Shapes
Materials
Stickers and Decorations
Collected Objects
Objects being too close together
Moving Objects
Objects and Shapes
Emitters
Creature Brains
Connectors


Thermo Management
The first thing to understand when trying to manage your thermo, and squeezing every last bit of level out of your allocated space, is that each thermo acts seemingly independently of every others. While this is not entirely true, it is a good way to approach the management of all your different thermos. This means that even if one thermo is close to maxing out, you may have an immense amount of space to work with in your other thermos. Note, though, that some objects will tax multiple thermos at once (the point bubble is a prime example), so keep in mind that this is not an exact science. We will occasional offer some stats as to how many of a certain object will fit in a level. These figures are merely to represent the amount of thermo that this object may take up (since we don't have a uniform way of measuring these things). Instead of using this guide as a be-all-end-all solution to managing your thermo, you should treat it as a set of guidelines established by your peers here at LittleBigPlanetCentral.

"The key to maximizing each Thermo is to have a clear plan throughout every phase of building."
-Me, just now

To make things as clear as possible, we will continue by breaking down what each of these thermometers entails. Click on each thermo's spoiler to display the information:


Complex Shapes
The Complex Shapes Thermo is probably the number one offender for beginning creators (as well as some of the experienced ones!), but it is also one of the easiest to understand and amend. This thermometer tracks the number of vertices (corners) that all of the objects in your level have. Each individual object also has its own shapes thermometer, which can be observed by trying to make a super complicated shape. If you get this message, consider splitting the offending object into two or more pieces or try to eliminate some vertices. This is not something to be generally concerned about, but it is a point of interest.

Problems generally arise with your Complex Shapes Thermo when creators will try to add details, complicated shapes, and jagged lines to their objects without much thought. The wrong way to go about creating is to simply carve out and add to objects using the default shapes in the materials section of your pop-it. You can use this method as an initial "shaping" technique, but you will always want to go through and delete any unnecessary edges with your corner editor tool. One thing to keep in mind when building with the default shapes is that the circular shapes contain a large number of edges (namely, 20). A circle by itself does not actually take up a whole lot of thermo as it has no vertices, but once you combine it with other shapes to make something irregular, it loses its thermo saving properties. Again, use your corner editor tool to eliminate unnecessary edges.

Which brings us to another point. Do not fear the corner editor! Many budding creators are put off by the initially daunting corner editor tool. It takes a bit of getting used to, but using the corner editor tool generally offers more precise and more efficient shaping of your objects. It may initially take a bit longer to build this way, but it generally yields better results and is lighter on thermo.

Other Points of interest

A circle will no longer behave as having "smooth" sides once any of the corners are edited or it is combined with another material. In terms of the physics engine, it is treated as a smooth circle when initially placed, so as to not tax the system any more than necessary
Contrary to the video, circles actually take up more Complex Thermo than triangles and squares, for which there was no discernable difference. Moral of the story: continue using squares for dark matter staples and/or logic pieces. [Thanks! to ConfusedCartman]
Point Bubbles and Score Bubbles will increase the Complex Shapes thermo, as well as a few other thermos. You can place quite a few before the effects become evident, but if you already have your Complex Shapes Thermo maxed out, you won't be able to place very many. Prize Bubbles take up more space, but you can fit 1200 into a blank level, regardless of their contents. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42)



Materials
While the Complex Shapes Thermo is probably the number one source for thermo woes, the Materials thermo is probably the number one source for misconceptions. Most early creators are convinced that if they reduce the number of materials they use in their levels, then they can fit more in... right? Wrong! Remember that each of the thermometers acts independently of every other, so unless you are using 30-40 different materials, the materials thermo should be a non-issue.

Another major concern with the Materials Thermo is the initial jump in thermo that it generates when you start building a level. So, you started building a level, and you've barely gotten started when you glance at your Half-Full thermo!? Do not worry! This is normal. When you start picking out the materials you are going to use in your level, there will always be an initial surge in your Materials Thermo. Just keep building as normal and you should observe a plateau effect, where the rest of thermos fight to catch up to the Materials Thermo.

Another thing to understand is that all materials are not created equal. This is the area of Materials Thermo management where things become tricky. Certain materials will cause a larger increase in Materials Thermo, while others will have barely any effect. Obviously we are not going to tell you to avoid using certain materials (that's just silly!), but we will point out that materials with holes and complicated shapes in them will have a greater effect than, say, cardboard. On the opposite end of the spectrum, we have Dark Matter. DM is not a very thermo intensive object for two reasons: it does not contain complicated shapes or features, and it is incapable of moving, so the physics for the object can be ignored.

Other Points of interest:


Many people will hold up sections of their level using "Dark Matter Staples" or little pieces of Dark Matter for support. There are many ways to use this method, but one way to use it efficiently. The most efficient way to use a DM staple is to create a triangle of it (triangles only have 3 sides...d'uh) and glue it to your object. Avoid putting a chunk of DM inside the object, as it adds edges to the object, as well as the DM itself.
Materials that belong to the same class tend to have a lesser effect on the thermo when used in conjuction. What I mean by this is that you could use a dozen different sponge materials, but since they are all essentially the same (but with different textures/colors), then the impact on your thermo would be reduced.
Many people will fore-go using sponge in their levels to reduce the materials thermo if necessary, by using dissolve instead (see next point about stickering). The efficiency of such a system is compounded by the fact that you are probably using dissolve somewhere in the level already. For most, this is a non-issue, but it is a point of interesting/suggestion.
On the other hand, sponge can be very useful when trying to eliminate edges because of its rounding effects. It takes far fewer edges to produce a seemingly rounded surface. (submitted by Rogar)
Remember, you can use different stickers on the same material to create the illusion of having more materials than you actually do.



Stickers and Decorations
This thermo is pretty self explanatory. If you use too many stickers and decorations in your level, this thermo will overheat. This is generally not a concern, as it normally takes a back-seat to the other thermos. One thing to take away from this, though, is that even if your level is close to overheating, you probably have plenty of room left in this thermo to give your level that extra-professional shine.

Other Points of Interest:


Just like how each individual shape has its own Complex Shapes Thermo, each object has its own Sticker and Decorations Thermo. An object is allowed to have 99 stickers on it, while decorations are slightly more taxing (roughly 50 per object). That should be plenty of breathing room. You will not get a message if you fill this thermo, rather it will begin deleting stickers and decorations automatically.
A blank level is allowed to have about 7000 of a single stickers or about 800 of a single decorations before it will overheat. The type of sticker has no bearing on how many you can place, but placing a variety of different stickers will result in a greater jump. Obviously, if you have a combination of stickers and decorations, the number you are allowed to place will fall in that range somewhere. Size of each was not taken into account. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42 and Teebonesy)
Custom stickers (by taking a photo) have a greater effect on the thermo. We don't have exact figures, but use good judgment and keep in the back of your mind.
The paintinator is affected by your Stickers and Decorations Thermo in that each paintball produces splat stickers when they strike a surface. If your Stickers and Decorations Thermo is too high, it may result in the paintinator not working, and will "click" as if out of paint. There may be other unconfirmed factors here.
Sticker glitches are another area of concern. If you have a large enough object that you've stickered (i.e. a very large sticker used to cover said object), you are going to be more susceptible to sticker glitches. If you've never seen a sticker glitch, it is where the sticker goes all funky on one of the object's edges. The issue seems to be compounded when there are large stickers in a small area, there are a large number of stickers in a small area, or a combination thereof. The glitch can be combated by breaking the offending material into smaller chunks and then stickering it. These issues seem to work in conjunction with the "Objects Being too Close Together Thermo."



Collected Objects
This Thermo involves anything not made out of the standard materials. MM Objects, Community Objects, Race Gates, Checkpoints, Keys, Switches, etc. all take up the Collected Objects Thermo. The number one violator for this thermo is MM objects in your levels, and sometimes community objects. Most people will fore-go using community objects, but they are still possible contributors. Avoid using MM story mode objects whenever possible and you'll be fine. Keys and switches are pretty essential to the level, so just continue building without giving them much though (you are allowed to have plenty of them).

Other Points of interest

1400 Magnetic Keys and 1000 Magnetic Key Switches can fill a Collected Objects Thermo on their own, but it is suggested that you stay well below this mark. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42)
224 race gates, 998 finish gates, 696 scoreboards, and 720 baseless scoreboards will fill this thermo on their own. (Thanks! to SteveBigGuns)
Avoid using the LittleBigPlanet tree object from story mode. It may look neat, but it's a real thermo hog. The same may also apply for other objects, but the tree is the most commonly used. Besides, everyone likes seeing user-created trees over the story mode version.
Lights are always a big concern with creators who prefer to create their own lighting and fore-go the global lighting option. Tests have shown that lights will eat up the Collected Objects Thermo as well as the Shapes Thermo. Interestingly enough, foggy lights don't take up any more thermo than regular lights, but foggy lights will cause drops in the framerate. In terms of specifics, you can place about 1300 spotlights in a blank level before it will overheat the Shapes and Collected Objects Thermo.



Moving Objects
This one is pretty simple to understand, and can be pretty simple to combat in the unlikely event that you are faced with a maxed out Moving Objects Thermo. The idea is that when objects are free to move about, the game will have to calculate and anticipate the physics of the object. By gluing down an object with a DM staple, you are allowing the game to disregard the physics for that object, reducing this thermo. If you manage to fill this thermo, the game will suggest that you try gluing your objects to DM to reduce it. Easy, Peasy.

Other Points of interest

It is believed that attaching an object to DM using a rod will fail to reduce the Moving Objects Thermo.
Score Bubbles and Prize Bubbles will take up the Moving Objects Thermo if they are not glued down. 1400 Score Bubbles can fit in a blank level when unglued. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42)



Objects Being too Close Together
This acts sort of like a global thermometer, but at a local level. What this means is that if you have any of your other thermos not filled yet, but you have any of those thermos concentrated in a small area, it will trigger the Objects Being too Close Together Thermo. If you get this one, your objects will start to be replaced with exclamation points to signify that you are over-taxing the system. Violators for this can come in many different forms (mag keys, sound items, lights, etc.), and if you ever get this message you are trying to put way too much stuff in a small space. Spread it out!

Other Points of interest

By gluing adjacent objects together and by stapling them with Dark Matter, it will reduce this thermo, as well as the Moving Objects Thermo.



Objects and Shapes
The thermo concerns anything with a physical shape, as far as we can tell. This means that the Objects and Shapes Thermo will have quite a bit of overlap with objects that tax other thermometers. Not much else is known about this mysterious thermo. [Thanks! to rtm223]

Other Points of Interest:

By copying and pasting an object that is already in your level, you can actually reduce some of the Objects and Shapes thermo. In this regard, using repeated shapes to construct larger objects can actually be thermo saving!
Even though copying and pasting reduces the effects of this thermo, as soon as you edit one of your copied objects, it loses its special relationship with the parent object and the effect is lost.


This section is in dire need of contributors. If you have anything else to add, please do!

Emitters (Contributed initially by goldenclaw13)

An incredibly easy way to raise your thermometer is - can you guess? That's right, emitters! Emitters can be fun to play with...but also deadly to your Thermo. Emitting lots and lots of moving parts will cause the system to have to stop and think about the physics of each emitted object. They can be used efficiently, but only when you when you consider all the factors for emitted objects.

An important consideration for creating emitters is the Max Emitted at Once option. The game will anticipate all possible objects being emitted at once when calculating the Thermo, so it is necessary to reduce this figure as much as possible. If you can get away with emitting only 4, do not set the Max Emitted at Once to 5.

Another factor to consider when dealing with emitters is how complicated the objects you are emitting are. If you are not emitting simple objects, they will add even more edges, decorations, and pretty much anything else from this guide. Thus, every single one of your thermometers could be raised, making you stop and wonder what you did wrong.

Other Points of Interest:

Stop and think - how many of each emitted object do you actually need? Minimize this as much as possible
Instead of having your emitter always on, attach them to some sort of trigger that is activated by the player in play mode. This is important since anything emitted in create mode does not count towards the number emitted in play mode. It can either be a permanent ON trigger, or some other way of dictating when the object is emitted (i.e. a One-Shot Switch)
Open



This little mini-guide for tricking the emitters was contributed by Treas:

Tricking the Emitter:
I’ve got a nice little extra trick concerning emitters that many of you may find quite useful.

For example, if you’ve got an emitter that needs to spawn one complex object per second, at a maximum number of 30 objects on screen at any given time:

If you did this the way you’re supposed to, the engine would add the thermometer usage of 30 circles. In fact, you can pull this number down to 1!

To do this, build a mechanism with a OneShot-Mag-Switch which is activated once per second (easiest way would be connecting dark matter and a piece of whatever (cardboard or dissolvable usually) with a catapult-setting piston. Connect the Mag-Switch to the emitter, and set the spawning interval on the emitter to (object lifespan + 0.1s). So, for our emitter, it would be 30.1s.

This way, you can trick the editor. Instead of calculating 30 objects, it thinks that only object would be on screen at a time (given the 30s lifespan and 30.1s interval), but infact, you’ve still got 30 spawned objects at a time.

Be careful though, this is a dangerous technique. Once the objects are spawned, they WILL have an impact on the thermometer. This means, if your level is already overheating (in PLAY mode), objects will just stop spawning. Nonetheless, this technique is a must-know for anyone who wants to create decent and complex survival challenges. Editor's note: This technique can be used for regular levels, but precautionary steps must be taken to not overheat the level in play mode. See below for more info.

Short Version:
There is a way to trick the emitter thermo. If you want the emitter to emit 50 objects at an interval of 1 second and lifespan of 100 seconds, instead of setting the interval to 1s, set it to 101 seconds (lifespan+1s, so that the editor suggests there can only be one object on screen at any given time) and connect it to a switch set to OneShot which is activated once per second.

This way, you will get the same effect (1 object per second with a lifespan of 100), but the thermo will only calculate 1 object instead of 50.

---------

Now, this trick can be used if the necessary steps are taken to ensure the level doesn't overheat in play mode. One way to do this is to destroy large portions of your level once you are done with them. This is definitely an advanced technique, and we would advice against it unless you feel comfortable with the idea.

[Thanks! to Treas]

This method was contributed by SteveBigGuns:

My technique I found last year allows for the lifetime of an emitter to be infinite. It's very simple. Take a block of dark matter and attach an emitter. place an object in it. set to max emitted 1 and max at one time to 1. Capture this block and place it in another emitter. Now, set the emitter to allow 1 max at a time and life time 0.2 (0.1 to emit darkmatter block and 0.1 for the emiter on the darkmatter to emit the object). Now, you can emit the darkmatter with the emiter on it every 0.2 seconds (minimum interval) with the objects lifetime set to whatever you want. This can be set to emit less frequently if desired, but the smallest time-window must be at least .2 seconds.

-----

Again, this method requires large sections of your level to be destroyed in order for things to work in play mode. If your thermo maxes out in play mode, emitters will fail to work. It might take a bit of creativity to make it work, but it's certainly possible. This is defo an advanced technique, so take caution if you're trying to implement it.

[Thanks! to SteveBigGuns]

Creature Brains
This thermo is very simple. You are allowed about 300 brains when they are at default settings attached to non-moving objects. This is likely to go up if you add movement to the creature. [citation needed]

Other Points of Interest:

Even though they have their own thermo, the materials and objects used to construct the creatures will contribute to their own respective thermos.



Connectors
The Connectors Thermo deals with the connectors, such as pistons, rods, springs, etc. Now, it appears that the absolute maximum number of connectors is 1000. Not much else to add. They are their own separate thermo, so it's rare that you will ever be concerned with this.

Other Points of Interest:

Even though they have their own thermo, the objects that connectors attach to will contribute to their own thermos.
Neither the stiffness of the connector, nor the material that it is connected to is a factor in the calculation of the Connectors Thermo.



The Thermo's Initial Jump (as contributed by incinerator22)

You may or may not have noticed that you sometimes get an initial thermo jump in certain situation. Precisely, we are referring to the initial jump in thermo when you first place a tool or object in your level such as a type of connector, sound, or material. It does not reflect the actual thermometer weight of an object when using a bunch of them, rather it indicates the thermometer usage necessary to load the texture/shape/whatever of that object, which can then be used more efficiently when subsequently used.

The key is to make smart decisions. When you're about to place a new type of object or tool, be aware of a potential bump in the thermometer. Ask yourself if it is really worth it to use that object, especially you only plan to use it once or twice. It may not be worth the cost unless it is an important part of the level. It's all about being precise in your management. For example, two blocks of two different materials uses more thermo than five blocks of one material. After you place the initial object/material into the level, subsequent copies of that same object/material will be more efficient.

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And this concludes the LBPCentral Comprehensive Thermo Guide. If you feel that something needs to be added to this guide, make a post in response. We will take a look at your suggestion and will determine if it should be added. If you don’t get a response within a few days, send a message to me [comphermc].

Thanks.

Comphy

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Contributers:
goldenclaw13, Rogar, CCubbage, rtm223, Burnvictim42, Teebonesy, SteveBigGuns, warlord_evil, ConfusedCartman, Treas, Xario, incinerator22

Give these guys a hand for helping out.

goldenclaw13
09-23-2009, 05:35 AM
Wow, this is going to be really useful for me, I am going to need it for my next (first big) project ;) I never knew the different thermometers acted individually!

Also, you should probably add a section on emitters - It is a very vital factor of the thermometer at times. Too many at the same time will result in more temp, as well as emitting complicated objects.

EDIT: I PMed you an emitter section, may want to add it in there ;)

Rogar
09-23-2009, 09:12 AM
Good summary, nice work! :)


Many people will fore-go using sponge in their levels to reduce the materials thermo if necessary, by using dissolve instead (see next point about stickering). The efficiency of such a system is compounded by the fact that you are probably using dissolve somewhere in the level already. For most, this is a non-issue, but it is a point of interesting/suggestion.[/B]

On the other hand, I really like using sponge for its rounding effects. You can save a lot on vertices, and thus the first thermometer, using them.

comphermc
09-23-2009, 11:51 AM
On the other hand, I really like using sponge for its rounding effects. You can save a lot on vertices, and thus the first thermometer, using them.

Thanks. I've added this to the notes below materials.

I've also added goldenclaw's section on emitters, with a few grammatical edits. I think the format of that section is alright, but I'm open to suggestions. Now its own section.

Zwollie
09-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Nice work there Comph, lets just hope this conquers all the same question threads being made about the thermo.

I'm pretty sure they will remain as new members can find the entire forum a bit daunting and what better way to ask then by creating a thread, right? right? :rolleyes:

But at least now we will be able to redirect them to this thread. :)

comphermc
09-23-2009, 12:14 PM
But at least now we will be able to redirect them to this thread. :)

Exactly.

Thanks.

CCubbage
09-23-2009, 01:07 PM
Awesome thread! I should have done this a long time ago instead of telling people over and over and over....

Couple other points:


Unconfirmed - By gluing down an object with a DM staple, you are allowing the game to disregard the physics for that object, potentially reducing the thermo (not sure which category)

Definately true.

All separate, unglued objects (even if they are attached by a connector) effect the "separate objects" thermo. The system will actually tell you "Try glueing objects to dark matter or the base of the level". When an object is not glued directly or by proxy to dark matter it still is affected by physics.

The "objects too close together" will also go down if you glue objects in proximity to each other with dark matter.
Experiment - try crushing a piece of cardboard. Then, glue it to dark matter. Try crushing it again - it can no longer be crushed! (actually, very useful for some logic because you can glue dissolve to something to prevent, for instance, a piston from moving until the dissolve disappears).

comphermc
09-23-2009, 01:22 PM
All separate, unglued objects (even if they are attached by a connector) effect the "separate objects" thermo. The system will actually tell you "Try glueing objects to dark matter or the base of the level". When an object is not glued directly or by proxy to dark matter it still is affected by physics.

The "objects too close together" will also go down if you glue objects in proximity to each other with dark matter.
Experiment - try crushing a piece of cardboard. Then, glue it to dark matter. Try crushing it again - it can no longer be crushed!

Excellent, thanks for the additions. I will try to add them in when I get a chance.

So, is there a separate objects thermo? I wasn't sure about that... or is it just included in the thermos already mentioned?


(actually, very useful for some logic because you can glue dissolve to something to prevent, for instance, a piston from moving until the dissolve disappears).

I've used this before, but had never considered that the dissolve was "stronger".

CCubbage
09-23-2009, 01:31 PM
I don't think it is. There are 2 messages "Try using less shapes" (I THINK thats what it says) and another "You have too many objects. Try glueing them to dark matter or the base of your level".

So... even with glue AND using the same vertices, 2 separate AND glued pieces of material use more than 1 large. So having giant pieces of material will allow a much bigger level.

And if you have a whole bunch of objects that are not glued to dark matter so that they EACH can be affected by physics, you will get the 2nd message.

OH, by the way - I noticed in a recent patch they started listing ALL the thermos you are getting full on (while creating Splat III). So instead of just saying the top thermo killer, it will say something like "Try using less materials, use less stickers and decorations, glue separate objects to dark matter, and use less collected objects".

VERY useful!

rtm223
09-23-2009, 01:42 PM
LBP Thermometers

Complex Shapes
Materials
Stickers and Decorations
Collected Objects
Objects being too close together
Moving Objects
Objects and shapes
emitters
creature brains



A circle by itself does not actually take up a whole lot of thermo, but once you combine it with other shapes to make something irregular, the effects start to increase. remember the circle is actually treated as a circle rather than an icosagon when it is on it's own





Other Points of interest
Many people will hold up sections of their level using "Dark Matter Staples" or little pieces of Dark Matter for support. There are many ways to use this method, but one way to use it efficiently. The most efficient way to use a DM staple is to create a triangle of it (triangles only have 3 sides...d'uh) and glue it to your object. Avoid putting a chunk of DM inside the object, as it adds edges to the object, as well as the DM itself.
I have a strong suspicion that using the offscreen DM with rod attached to object will make the object count as moving, but I haven't had chance to test that yet.
Open


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Materials

Other notes:
Unconfirmed - By gluing down an object with a DM staple, you are allowing the game to disregard the physics for that object, potentially reducing the thermo (not sure which category) Moving objects - this has nothing to do with materials


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[SIZE="4"]
Stickers and Decorations

Other notes:
Just like how each individual shape has its own Complex Shapes Thermo, each object has its own Sticker and Decorations Thermo. Last I heard, an object was allowed to have 100 99 stickers on it. That should be plenty of breathing room. Decorations take up more (x2??) thermo than stickers.
The paintinator is affected by your Stickers and Decorations Thermo in that each paintball produces splat stickers when they strike a surface. If your Stickers and Decorations Thermo is too high, it may result in the paintinator not working, and will "click" as if out of paint. Is this the only contributing factor?

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Collected Objects
This Thermo includes many different aspects, which we will try to break down individually. These include, but are not limited to, emitted objects emitters, community objects, story mode objects, and objects found in the tools section of your popit.

[b]Emitters (Contributed by goldenclaw13)

This is in the wrong section - it needs to be on it's own, as it's not a contributer to a specific thermo
An incredibly easy way to raise your thermometer is - can you guess? That's right, emitters! Emitters can be fun to play with...but also deadly to your Thermo. Emitting lots and lots of moving parts will cause the system to have to stop and think about the physics of each emitted object. They can be used efficiently, but only when you when you consider all the factors for emitted objects.

An important part of emitters in how they relate to the thermometer is emitting too many objects for too long a duration Total number of objects and has no effect on thermo, the issue is number of objects at once. The number of objects at once means that you have the potential for that object to add it's edges and moving parts etc to the level. It should be as low as possible. The emitter calc has changed at some point so that frequency and duration are used to imply a low max at once if possible, which is neat.



I don't think it is. There are 2 messages "Try using less shapes" (I THINK thats what it says) and another "You have too many objects. Try glueing them to dark matter or the base of your level".



I'm pretty sure that's "objects and shapes" and "moving objects"



OH, by the way - I noticed in a recent patch they started listing ALL the thermos you are getting full on (while creating Splat III). So instead of just saying the top thermo killer, it will say something like "Try using less materials, use less stickers and decorations, glue separate objects to dark matter, and use less collected objects".

VERY useful! I don't get this on setbacks, and I have around 3-4 thermos on 99%:confused:

comphermc
09-23-2009, 01:48 PM
Thanks. I have some editing to do...

CCubbage
09-23-2009, 03:47 PM
I don't get this on setbacks, and I have around 3-4 thermos on 99%

Weird..... I've been watching it the last several days pretty consistently while working on Splat III - I've got 5 of the thermos at around 90%. Hmmm....

Burnvictim42
09-23-2009, 04:41 PM
Great job so far, thanks for poking holes in everything already RTM ;p

um... only thing i could think of offhand is that for emitters, if you're not using it, you shouldn't be emitting it. If you hook up switches to activate emitters only when they're needed, you'll save a bit of space for the thermos the emitter is affecting, as things aren't being fired all over the place.

Also, just as general advice, be sure to think carefully about what you need out at once when editing your emitters. Make sure to only have as many as you need at once, and that they only last as long as you need.

Free feel to poke holes in those RTM :P I'm expecting you to come out of nowhere and prove me wrong :D

Morgana25
09-23-2009, 04:48 PM
Brilliant idea for a thread! :)

I'm always hit by the complex objects one first but after learning a ton from other creators (you know who you are) I think I'm getting better at managing thermo.

rtm223
09-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Great job so far, thanks for poking holes in everything already RTM ;p

um... only thing i could think of offhand is that for emitters, if you're not using it, you shouldn't be emitting it. If you hook up switches to activate emitters only when they're needed, you'll save a bit of space for the thermos the emitter is affecting, as things aren't being fired all over the place.

Also, just as general advice, be sure to think carefully about what you need out at once when editing your emitters. Make sure to only have as many as you need at once, and that they only last as long as you need.

Free feel to poke holes in those RTM :P I'm expecting you to come out of nowhere and prove me wrong :D


This is why Emitters need an entire section to themselves... All the stuff like making sure they don't emit in create mode etc is really important.

v0rtex
09-23-2009, 04:58 PM
Yes, thank you for this - very useful. Much of it I've already learned - either from you lot, or from hard experience - but a lot of useful info in one location! :)

BTW - I think the thread title is mis-spelled. :( Shouldn't it be Comphrehensive Thermo Overview? :p

comphermc
09-23-2009, 05:28 PM
Shouldn't it be Comphrehensive Thermo Overview? :p

Ha ha. Although very clever, I'll try to stay professional and avoid puns. Thanks for the laugh, though.

--------

Thanks for the additions and refutations so far, guys. I've tried to update the OP with everything you guys have said, but I may have missed something. I will do my best to get this finished in a timely manner, but I've got other stuff going on (like, you know, real life, and all). I'm actually between classes right now. In this regard, your help is greatly appreciated and welcome.

Burnvictim42
09-23-2009, 10:19 PM
I just did a little experimentation with stickers and decorations, here are my findings:

A maxed Stickers thermo consists of 6930 stickers (70 blocks with 99 stickers each).
The sticker doesn't seem to make a difference, i tried the blue square, the stylized antelope, and the thin sketch bricks stickers (one a single color, one with many colors, and one with transparency) and they all had the same number of stickers. Size also made no difference.

A maxed decorations thermo has different qualities

I tried sticking a block full of the peacock feathers, and could place 41 of them on a block. I tried placing the glasses, and could place 51 on a block. I could place 16 blocks of both decorations. As a result, i think that, as RTM suspected, different decorations have different thermometer values.

I didn't get the chance to test if size affected it at all.

I'll be doing some more experimentation later, idk if it'll be with decorations though.

comphermc
09-23-2009, 10:31 PM
Wow! Thanks :)

Added.

If I can make a request for further testing it would be (in terms of priority):

-Point/prize bubbles
-Mag key switches
-Pistons/rods/etc.

That is assuming you're willing. I should have some time to do the same as early as tomorrow.

BSprague
09-23-2009, 10:55 PM
The list is looking very good, hopefully this will prevent some of those extra thermometer threads that seem to have been popping up frequently as of late.

Teebonesy
09-23-2009, 11:11 PM
I can confirm that different stickers DO definitely make a difference. I'll give you my experience.

I'm currently working on a level with a nearly completely maxed-out sticker/decoration thermo. For the most part I've been using a small stable of stickers over and over. In fact, I have room in my thermo to do DOZENS of certain of these stickers.

But when I lay down a SINGLE "gothic architecture" sticker from the history pack, of which I've used zero so far, my level overheats.

But other stickers from the history pack that i've been using regularly, like the chinese windows, I can put dozens down and still be safe.

So that suggests that, similar to materials and objects, once you place a sticker down, it's sort of kept in your level's loaded "stable" of resources.

It also might suggest that certain stickers really do simply take up more space than others. I don't envy the person that decides to write up the 'sticker database' though.

I would suggest not using a greater variety of stickers than absolutely necessary. For example, pick ONE green sticker, either the green square, the frog, the green scribble, etc, for your green objects.

One theory, somewhat wild, totally unproven, is that it might be more thermo-efficient to include the color gradient stickers in order to "mix" your colors and create new shades, rather than use a single new and unique sticker for every purpose. It means more stickers. But it means a smaller VARIETY of stickers. I'm not sure which one would be more efficient. this theory also assumes it's variety that's the culprit, and doesn't account for the possibility that certain stickers are simply "cheaper" than others.

But I can confirm 100%: I can put down two dozen chinese windows. I cannot place a SINGLE gothic arch.

comphermc
09-23-2009, 11:17 PM
I can confirm that different stickers DO definitely make a difference. I'll give you my experience.

I'm currently working on a level with a nearly completely maxed-out sticker/decoration thermo. For the most part I've been using a small stable of stickers over and over. In fact, I have room in my thermo to do DOZENS of certain of these stickers.

But when I lay down a SINGLE "gothic architecture" sticker from the history pack, of which I've used zero so far, my level overheats.

But other stickers from the history pack that i've been using regularly, like the chinese windows, I can put dozens down and still be safe.

So that suggests that, similar to materials and objects, once you place a sticker down, it's sort of kept in your level's loaded "stable" of resources.

It also might suggest that certain stickers really do simply take up more space than others. I don't envy the person that decides to write up the 'sticker database' though.

I would suggest not using a greater variety of stickers than absolutely necessary. For example, pick ONE green sticker, either the green square, the frog, the green scribble, etc, for your green objects.

One theory, somewhat wild, totally unproven, is that it might be more thermo-efficient to include the color gradient stickers in order to "mix" your colors and create new shades, rather than use a single new and unique sticker for every purpose. It means more stickers. But it means a smaller VARIETY of stickers. I'm not sure which one would be more efficient.

But I can confirm 100%: I can put down two dozen chinese windows. I cannot place a SINGLE gothic arch.

While you may have a point, the guide is to illustrate the rough number of stickers. With the tests BV42 did, he was able to place about 7000 of a single sticker, regardless of which sticker it was. There is probably more to it than what we see on the surface. I will make a note of it in the guide, but I don't want to get to anecdotal with all this, or it would get out of hand quickly.

About the gradients, I use the base stickers and combinations of gradients to make new colors... your ideas are not useless.

Ah, I just remembered that custom stickers take up more space. I need to add that as well...

Nuclearfish
09-23-2009, 11:18 PM
Very good thread. :)


A few things to think about, if and how these affect the thermo:

- Sounds
- Music
- Magic Mouths
- Backgrounds

I'd guess that sounds and music work in the same way as materials, so that if you use the same sound/music objects it won't increase. Actually, come to think of it, if there is a thermo for any of the above, I can't really see them getting full to quickly, so maybe they won't ever be a problem? Or do these all come under 'Collected Objects'?

comphermc
09-23-2009, 11:22 PM
Very good thread. :)


A few things to think about, if and how these affect the thermo:

- Sounds
- Music
- Magic Mouths
- Backgrounds

I'd guess that sounds and music work in the same way as materials, so that if you use the same sound/music objects it won't increase. Actually, come to think of it, if there is a thermo for any of the above, I can't really see them getting full to quickly, so maybe they won't ever be a problem? Or do these all come under 'Collected Objects'?

I sense an investigation. :p

I don't have all the time in the world, but I will test things when I have time, and would gladly welcome contributions from anyone else.

Burnvictim42
09-24-2009, 12:00 AM
Okay, some more testing:

Put point bubbles in the level, all unglued. They maxed out the moving objects thermometer. Around 1400 point bubbles can be placed, if they're glued to objects they take up less thermo. (i'm ballparking, thats a lot of unglued bubbles) size had no effect.

Prize bubbles filled up the complicated shapes thermo at about 1200, when filled and when unfilled.

1400 magnetic keys will fill a level, and are part of collected objects... i think someone mentioned that, but it doesnt hurt to reiterate :p
They'll also freak the hell out of the level and get the yellow ! all over because the area is too complex ;p

Key switches also fill collected objects but with 1000 in the level instead. Didn't mess with size for either.

Complexity has to do with all the different objects on screen it seems, is that also the "objects too close together" thermometer? As the message tells me that i should space them out more.

rtm223
09-24-2009, 12:11 AM
A few things to think about, if and how these affect the thermo:

- Sounds Collected objects
- Music Collected objects - note int music takes up more therm
- Magic Mouths Collected objects
- Backgrounds Unsure, I'd guess not though

I'd guess that sounds and music work in the same way as materials, so that if you use the same sound/music objects it won't increase. Nope, it's a per-item thing here Actually, come to think of it, if there is a thermo for any of the above, I can't really see them getting full to quickly, so maybe they won't ever be a problem? Or do these all come under 'Collected Objects'? bingo

Collected objects is basically the answer to this post. Remember that while these objects aren't physical, they still have a detection radius so are still doing small amounts of collision detection and have a drain on the engine.

With regards to points bubbles remember they contribute to a whole bunch of thermos. Prize bubbles contribute more to collected objects the points bubbles do though, and filling them makes no odds.

comphermc
09-24-2009, 12:27 AM
Thanks, rtm. I can see that you're going to be invaluable to this guide. :)

I will add all of this stuff (and hopefully another full section) once I get my paper done.

Teebonesy
09-24-2009, 12:50 AM
your ideas are not useless.

YESSSSSS!!! Champagne for everyone!!

http://imgur.com/KKR2B.jpg

warlord_evil
09-24-2009, 01:47 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but race gates and scoreboards take a lot of thermo.

comphermc
09-24-2009, 01:53 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but race gates and scoreboards take a lot of thermo.

Thanks, I'll go investigate, although it's almost a non-issue since you shouldn't have more than one in your level. :p

----------

I'm back. You were right about the race gates. Not so much about the scoreboards. I crunched the numbers on a few other things while I was at it:

220 Racegates - Collected Objects
660 Scoreboards - Moving Objects
~300 Brains - Brains
4000 Sound Objects - Objects (22 different sounds) <--- New category? It said just objects.
2200 Pistons - Connectors <--- New Category? It said connectors.
750 Music Objects - Objects

I tried to max out a thermo using blocks of fire, but it took forever, and it said Shapes or Collected Objects.

SteveBigGuns
09-24-2009, 02:44 AM
Very informative. Its nice to see my theories on how the thermo is compiled seem to correspond with your reasearch. Hopefully people with stop limiting their material choices so much due to the misconception that it a major thermo filler.

I was bored so i decided to see the difference in thermo cost between the types of gates and scoreboards. If your interested the results were: 224 start gates, 998 finish gates, 696 scorboards with base and 720 without.

comphermc
09-24-2009, 02:47 AM
Thanks. Some of those are slightly higher than what I got, but I stopped once it started to overheat. I'll use your values when I actually add them to the guide.

comphermc
09-24-2009, 03:12 AM
Sorry to double post, but I need someone who know what they are talking about to clarify something for me:

What's the difference between 'Collected Objects' and 'Objects and Shapes'? Is there a difference?

I just need to know the types of things that makes up each so that I can organize my suggestions.

warlord_evil
09-24-2009, 03:20 AM
Sorry to double post, but I need someone who know what they are talking about to clarify something for me:

What's the difference between 'Collected Objects' and 'Objects and Shapes'? Is there a difference?

I just need to know the types of things that makes up each so that I can organize my suggestions.

I think Collected Objects may mean the MM objects and community objects, such as the water wheel, or the giraffe scene, while the Objects and Shapes may be items that weren't made with the in-game editor, such as the Chinese Bell, Mexican Vase, laser pointer, and the Hammer.

comphermc
09-24-2009, 03:23 AM
I think Collected Objects may mean the MM objects and community objects, such as the water wheel, or the giraffe scene, while the Objects and Shapes may be items that weren't made with the in-game editor, such as the Chinese Bell, Mexican Vase, laser pointer, and the Hammer.

Thanks. I should have known this - I'm getting tired and I think it's starting to show. I'm going to take a break for the day, but it's really starting to come together.

StrayFelisCatus
09-24-2009, 04:36 AM
Great guide! I wish I had something to add, but alas, I don't. I can, however, wish you good luck with this daunting task!

goldenclaw13
09-24-2009, 05:00 AM
I think Collected Objects may mean the MM objects and community objects, such as the water wheel, or the giraffe scene, while the Objects and Shapes may be items that weren't made with the in-game editor, such as the Chinese Bell, Mexican Vase, laser pointer, and the Hammer.

Are you sure? I think you are right about the Collected Objects part, but I think the Objects and Shapes on might be your own saved objects that you have used, and how complicated they are.

But I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to make sure we all know what is right and wrong.

Rogar
09-24-2009, 10:50 AM
I'd also like to know about the myth that copying a structure or capturing it takes less thermo than recreating it. Does anyone know if it is true or not? If not, I might test it myself.

rtm223
09-24-2009, 11:05 AM
220 Racegates - Collected Objects
660 Scoreboards - Moving Objects
~300 Brains - Brains
4000 Sound Objects - Objects (22 different sounds) <--- New category? It said just objects.
2200 Pistons - Connectors <--- New Category? It said connectors.
750 Music Objects - Objects


Stuff like this is a little bit misleading, because these things contribute to multiple thermos. Saying "x things fill up y thermo" misses the bigger picture IMO. Although the connectors thermo is new to me.




I think Collected Objects may mean the MM objects and community objects, such as the water wheel, or the giraffe scene, while the Objects and Shapes may be items that weren't made with the in-game editor, such as the Chinese Bell, Mexican Vase, laser pointer, and the Hammer. Collected objects is anything that's not just made out of normal materials. Community objects and MM mesh objects do, along with MM objects that we could make (eg. rocket cheetah). Note that your own objects that you have captured don't seem to (there is nothing explicitly tying them together as a group). Objects and shapes is pretty much anything with a physical shaped I think.

@rogar: I'm really sceptical about that. The problem is that to test it requires making quite complex shapes over and over again and will be very time consuming to actually do.

Rogar
09-24-2009, 11:16 AM
@rogar: I'm really sceptical about that. The problem is that to test it requires making quite complex shapes over and over again and will be very time consuming to actually do.

I was thinking of cutting out a circle out of a circle, that's plenty of vertices if I understand it correctly (40?). Sure, still a lot of work, which is why I'm asking if anyone else already has the answer. :p

rtm223
09-24-2009, 11:20 AM
Ahhh yes - good plan :)

Just make sure you aren't dealing with the "too many objects in one place" thermo.

Rogar
09-24-2009, 11:25 AM
Ahhh yes - good plan :)

Just make sure you aren't dealing with the "too many objects in one place" thermo.

I was going to make them out of dark matter. :idea:

comphermc
09-24-2009, 11:26 AM
Stuff like this is a little bit misleading, because these things contribute to multiple thermos. Saying "x things fill up y thermo" misses the bigger picture IMO. Although the connectors thermo is new to me.
What would you suggest I do otherwise? The purpose of this is to illustrate what some common objects will do to a thermo. If it's misleading, then I can remove it.

Yeah. I was a bit surprised by the connectors thermo.




Collected objects is anything that's not just made out of normal materials. Community objects and MM mesh objects do, along with MM objects that we could make (eg. rocket cheetah). Note that your own objects that you have captured don't seem to (there is nothing explicitly tying them together as a group). Objects and shapes is pretty much anything with a physical shaped I think.

Alright, thanks. I guess the Objects and Shapes is just an accumulation of a bunch of different thermos, then?

rtm223
09-24-2009, 11:32 AM
What would you suggest I do otherwise? The purpose of this is to illustrate what some common objects will do to a thermo. If it's misleading, then I can remove it.

I dunno really.



Alright, thanks. I guess the Objects and Shapes is just an accumulation of a bunch of different thermos, then?

No, I think it's something separate - a tally of the actuall # of shapes that need to be moved around as physical objects, which will be important for load on the physics.

Rogar
09-24-2009, 12:39 PM
What would you suggest I do otherwise? The purpose of this is to illustrate what some common objects will do to a thermo. If it's misleading, then I can remove it.

Maybe have a reference chart at the bottom? Puts less emphasis on it, theory first, some numbers at the end. Like:

Connector:
2200 pistons
Objects:
4000 sound objects

750 music objects

If an object is in more than one category, people will get the picture I hope.

By the way, I vote this thread the must useful thread EVAH! :D

Syroc
09-24-2009, 01:43 PM
Perfect timing: MM video on thermometer (http://www.mediamolecule.com/?p=1948&preview=true)

fullofwin
09-24-2009, 03:01 PM
Regarding the mm video:

When gluing objects to dark matter, I've always used a triangle...and the video suggested this as well. The problem is that they just got done explaining that an un-modified circle has 0 vertices, so wouldn't a dark matter circle be the best shape to use for this purpose?

GruntosUK
09-24-2009, 03:05 PM
Yeah but they say a circle has no vertices until edited or until something is cut into it or you cut it into something else, then there's loads.

wexfordian
09-24-2009, 03:07 PM
so just make a circle and glue it to whatever you want no?

comphermc
09-24-2009, 03:08 PM
I think you're right about the circle. It makes the most sense.

----

The video is now added to the guide. I'm not giving up on this! The purpose of the Comprehensive Thermo Overview is to explain all the different thermometers and how to manage them. While the video does a great job explaining some things (and actually showing it to you), there are quite a few things they didn't cover.

I'm actually kind of mad at them for furthering the misconception that having only 4 materials will increase your overall thermo. This does not seem to be true, so I'm confused why they put that in there.

rtm223
09-24-2009, 03:16 PM
Zero vertices, but it still has one edge ;) Good to know I was right about that though. Thing is, once you get to the point of taking individual vertices out of your level (squares to triangles, triangles to circles etc) how much extra can you actually fit into the level. Maybe a tree, if you are lucky. I wouldn't expect to see any noticable gains in shifting to circles, but it can't hurt.

I've considered dropping logic components down to triangles, but it really just seems like overkill, it's less easy to modify, so I'd have to go back and do it at the end. and I might be a little bit freaked out by the acute angles in my nice neat squares of logic :blush:


With regards to materials, I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm guessing it's a beginner's guide to understanding the thermo, rather than an "all about the thermo" as they suggest :rolleyes: In that respect, it's easier to see what is going on if you keep # of materials down. But yes, longterm it's counterproductive.

Teebonesy
09-24-2009, 09:36 PM
I'm actually kind of mad at them for furthering the misconception that having only 4 materials will increase your overall thermo. This does not seem to be true, so I'm confused why they put that in there.

Well, this actually does come up. If the materials thermo is independent, and can handle something like 40 different materials, I wouldn't be having an issue with it in my current level. I've only used 8 materials TOTAL - 3 cardboard, 1 wood, 1 metal, 1 stone, dark matter, and dissolve.

I never added an additional material to that "pallette".

But I'm now at the tipping-point in my level thermometer wise. Add in some new stickers, a complex shape or two, and it overheats.

Or, any single new material. Anything at all that I haven't used before, overheats the level. There HAS to be more going on than just a completely independent material thermo. 8 unique materials will not even be close to overheating the thermo on an empty level, but I can't add one single more.

I have no idea what the deal is, I don't pretend to know, but that's the situation I've been in in this level for some time now. It might not help if people go in thinking they have room for 30 materials in their pallette, because it still might bite them later on.

comphermc
09-24-2009, 09:43 PM
Thanks, Teebonesy. I don't pretend to understand all of this either, and it's definitely going to be tricky to explain that in terms of the guide. There's obviously something more going on here, but the best we can do is offer suggestions to reduce each individual thermo, since there does seem to be overlap in certain areas.

What we should do is try to contact MM with the "finished" guide and ask them what they think. Now, if only we could get them to respond...

rtm223
09-24-2009, 09:54 PM
Now that is interesting. I pushed setbacks to the point where several thermos were literally at breaking point (1 mag switch or 3 extra vertices would do it). I already have around 18 materials and I can happily tweak existing objects to be new ones with no hassle. I take it is was the use less materials message you got teebonesy?

Rogar
09-24-2009, 10:09 PM
Despite the new thermometer tips video, I went ahead with my proposed experiment. And with interesting results.

I started off by creating a new blank template level and destroying the entrance. I switched to big grid, created a dark matter circle that fits a 4x4 square, then cut out a sackboy shape of 2x3 from the upper right corner. This shape should be complicated enough to reach the limit without too much work. It turned out to be an unfortunate choice. :cry:

First I repeated this until I ran into the complex shape limit. I got up to 237 shapes.

Next I deleted everything except the first, and copied that 10 times, then copied those 10 4 times then copied those until I reached the limit, making individual copies again until I could copy no more. Strange enough, I only reached 219. :confused:

So I started thinking, maybe this copying is only efficient if you copy a single shape. But when I started out, the sackboy cutout actually cut my circle in two. So next I copied the same way as before, but now I copied the parts individually. First 10 of copies of the big part, then 4 copies of that group, then a bunch of copies of 4x10. Then the same procedure for the other part. This only allowed 218 copies! :grr:

So at last I tried copying the individual shapes one by one in stead of in groups, no short cuts this time. I got up to 244. Some efficiency at last.

Summary for lazy readers:


Copying complex dark matter shapes does seem to be slightly more efficient than individually creating them, but only when you copy a single shape.

So for all that trouble, that was a less than spectacular result imho. Maybe you'd get more efficiency with other materials, and there's also the question what happens with shapes that consist of multiple shapes glued together, or connected with pistons or something. Don't know if I can be bothered to try this sort of thing again, though. :p

comphermc
09-24-2009, 10:12 PM
Very interesting and confusing stuff, rogar. Thanks for your experimentation. Any idea how to phrase that in general terms so that it applies to the guide? Or shall I just make a general point about copied objects having less effect on the thermo than creating each one individually?

[/laziness]

Burnvictim42
09-25-2009, 12:49 AM
Interesting video MM provided us. Also some interesting findings. Sometimes i wonder whether even they have a complete listing somewhere :p

comphermc
09-25-2009, 01:05 AM
Disregard this post. This is merely a backup of the original post so that I can make edits in a word processor and not have to worry about accidentally deleting everything.


There have been threads popping up all over the place asking for help with managing the thermometer in create mode, and I've noticed that we keep having to repeat the same handful of suggestions over and over. Hence, I present the...


Comprehensive Thermo Overview

The purpose of this tutorial is to be a guide for all things thermo. We hope to teach a few things, as well as clear up some common misconceptions. This should be a community effort in that if you have something to add to the tutorial that is of merit, then I will add it. We shall begin with the simplest of the simple.

What is the thermometer in LittleBigPlanet for?
Put simply, the thermometer in LittleBigPlanet's create mode is a visual indicator of the amount of "stuff" you are allowed to put in your level. Obviously, there needs to be some upper limit for the contents of our levels, or else we could run the risk of overloading and crashing our PS3's. This limit is there for a reason, so there's not much sense in kicking and screaming for Media Molecule to increase the thermo - the PS3 simply cannot handle it. We just have to deal with the limitations and build accordingly. MM recently released a video that teaches about some of the basics of dealing with the thermometer (only a day after starting this thread, no less). While they offer some excellent pointers, they don't cover everything. If you haven't yet seen the video, it can be viewed here:


YouTube - Mm Tips Special 3: The Thermometer

What the video fails to discuss in detail is the idea that the thermometer is actually several different thermometers. The way the system works, then, is that the highest of the possible thermometers will be the one that is displayed in create mode. We know that these additional thermometers exist by looking at the back of the game box, or by reading the various messages that pop up when your level begins to overheat. We can then consider all the different thermometers that are being recorded in create mode:

LBP Thermometers

Complex Shapes
Materials
Stickers and Decorations
Collected Objects
Objects being too close together
Moving Objects
Objects and Shapes
Emitters
Creature Brains
Connectors


Thermo Management
The first thing to understand when trying to manage your thermo, and squeezing every last bit of level out of your allocated space, is that each thermo acts independently of every other (with a few exceptions to be covered later). This means that even if one thermo is close to maxing out, you may have an immense amount of space to work with in your other thermos. The key to maximizing each is to have a clear plan throughout every phase of building.

To make things as clear as possible, we will continue by breaking down what each of these thermometers entails:

Complex Shapes
The Complex Shapes Thermo is probably the number one offender for beginning creators (as well as some of the experienced ones!), but it is also one of the easiest to understand and amend. This thermometer tracks the number of edges that all of your objects in the level have. Each individual object also has its own shapes thermometer, which can be observed by trying to make a super complicated shape. This is not something to be generally concerned about, but it is a point of interest.

Problems generally arise with your Complex Shapes Thermo when creators will try to add details, complicated shapes, and jagged lines to their objects without much thought. The wrong way to go about creating is to simply carve out and add to objects using the default shapes in the materials section of your pop-it. You can use this method as an initial "shaping" technique, but you will always want to go through and delete any unnecessary edges with your corner editor tool. One thing to keep in mind when building with the default shapes is that the circular shapes contain a large number of edges (namely, 20). A circle by itself does not actually take up a whole lot of thermo, but once you combine it with other shapes to make something irregular, the effects start to increase. Again, use your corner editor tool to eliminate unnecessary edges.

Which brings us to another point. Do not fear the corner editor! Many budding creators are put off by the initially daunting corner editor tool. It takes a bit of getting used to, but using the corner editor tool generally offers more precise and more efficient shaping of your objects. It may initially take a bit longer to build this way, but it generally yields better results and is lighter on thermo.

Other Points of interest
A circle will no longer behave as having "smooth" sides once any of the corners are edited or it is combined with another material. In terms of the physics engine, it is treated as a smooth circle when initially placed, so as to not tax the system any more than necessary
Point Bubbles and Score Bubbles will increase the Complex Shapes thermo, as well as a few other thermos. You can place quite a few before the effects become evident, but if you already have your Complex Shapes Thermo maxed out, you won't be able to place very many. Prize Bubbles take up more space, but you can fit 1200 into a blank level, regardless of their contents. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42)


----------

Materials
While the Complex Shapes Thermo is probably the number one source for thermo woes, the Materials thermo is probably the number one source for misconceptions. Most early creators are convinced that if they reduce the number of materials they use in their levels, then they can fit more in... right? Wrong! Remember that each of the thermometers acts independently of every other, so unless you are using 30-40 different materials, the materials thermo should be a non-issue.

Another major concern with the Materials Thermo is the initial jump in thermo that it generates when you start building a level. So, you started building a level, and you've barely gotten started when you glance at your Half-Full thermo!? Do not worry! This is normal. When you start picking out the materials you are going to use in your level, there will always be an initial surge in your Materials Thermo. Just keep building as normal and you should observe a plateau effect, where the rest of thermos fight to catch up to the Materials Thermo.

Another thing to understand is that all materials are not created equal. This is the area of Materials Thermo management where things become tricky. Certain materials will cause a larger increase in Materials Thermo, while others will have barely any effect. Obviously we are not going to tell you to avoid using certain materials (that's just silly!), but we will point out that materials with holes and complicated shapes in them will have a greater effect than, say, cardboard. On the opposite end of the spectrum, we have Dark Matter. DM is not a very thermo intensive object for two reasons: it does not contain complicated shapes or features, and it is incapable of moving, so the physics for the object can be ignored.

Other Points of interest:
Many people will hold up sections of their level using "Dark Matter Staples" or little pieces of Dark Matter for support. There are many ways to use this method, but one way to use it efficiently. The most efficient way to use a DM staple is to create a triangle of it (triangles only have 3 sides...d'uh) and glue it to your object. Avoid putting a chunk of DM inside the object, as it adds edges to the object, as well as the DM itself.
Materials that belong to the same class tend to have a lesser effect on the thermo when used in conjuction. What I mean by this is that you could use a dozen different sponge materials, but since they are all essentially the same (but with different textures/colors), then the impact on your thermo would be reduced.
Many people will fore-go using sponge in their levels to reduce the materials thermo if necessary, by using dissolve instead (see next point about stickering). The efficiency of such a system is compounded by the fact that you are probably using dissolve somewhere in the level already. For most, this is a non-issue, but it is a point of interesting/suggestion.
On the other hand, sponge can be very useful when trying to eliminate edges because of its rounding effects. It takes far fewer edges to produce a seemingly rounded surface. (submitted by Rogar)
Remember, you can use different stickers on the same material to create the illusion of having more materials than you actually do.

----------

Stickers and Decorations
This thermo is pretty self explanatory. If you use too many stickers and decorations in your level, this thermo will overheat. This is generally not a concern, as it normally takes a back-seat to the other thermos. One thing to take away from this, though, is that even if your level is close to overheating, you probably have plenty of room left in this thermo to give your level that extra-professional shine.

Other Points of Interest:
Just like how each individual shape has its own Complex Shapes Thermo, each object has its own Sticker and Decorations Thermo. An object is allowed to have 99 stickers on it, while decorations are slightly more taxing (roughly 50 per object). That should be plenty of breathing room.
A blank level is allowed to have about 7000 of a single stickers or about 800 of a single decorations before it will overheat. The type of sticker has no bearing on how many you can place, but placing a variety of different stickers will result in a greater jump. Obviously, if you have a combination of stickers and decorations, the number you are allowed to place will fall in that range somewhere. Size of each was not taken into account. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42 and Teebonesy)
Custom stickers (by taking a photo) have a greater effect on the thermo. We don't have exact figures, but use good judgment and keep in the back of your mind.
The paintinator is affected by your Stickers and Decorations Thermo in that each paintball produces splat stickers when they strike a surface. If your Stickers and Decorations Thermo is too high, it may result in the paintinator not working, and will "click" as if out of paint. There may be other unconfirmed factors here.
Sticker glitches are another area of concern. If you have a large enough object that you've stickered (i.e. a very large sticker used to cover said object), you are going to be more susceptible to sticker glitches. If you've never seen a sticker glitch, it is where the sticker goes all funky on one of the object's edges. The issue seems to be compounded when there are large stickers in a small area, there are a large number of stickers in a small area, or a combination thereof. The glitch can be combated by breaking the offending material into smaller chunks and then stickering it. These issues seem to work in conjunction with the "Objects Being too Close Together Thermo."


----------

Collected Objects
MM Objects, Community Objects, Race Gates, Checkpoints, Keys, Switches, etc. all take up the Collected Objects Thermo. The number one violator for this thermo is MM objects in your levels, and sometimes community objects. Most people will fore-go using community objects, but they are still possible contributors. Avoid using MM story mode objects whenever possible and you'll be fine. Keys and switches are pretty essential to the level, so just continue building without giving them much though (you are allowed to have plenty of them).

Other Points of interest
1400 Magnetic Keys and 1000 Magnetic Key Switches can fill a Collected Objects Thermo on their own, but it is suggested that you stay well below this mark. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42)
224 race gates, 998 finish gates, 696 scoreboards, and 720 baseless scoreboards will fill this thermo on their own. (Thanks! to SteveBigGuns)



----------

Moving Objects
This one is pretty simple to understand, and can be pretty simple to combat in the unlikely event that you are faced with a maxed out Moving Objects Thermo. The idea is that when objects are free to move about, the game will have to calculate and anticipate the physics of the object. By gluing down an object with a DM staple, you are allowing the game to disregard the physics for that object, reducing this thermo. If you manage to fill this thermo, the game will suggest that you try gluing your objects to DM to reduce it. Easy, Peasy.

Other Points of interest
It is believed that attaching an object to DM using a rod will fail to reduce the Moving Objects Thermo.
Score Bubbles and Prize Bubbles will take up the Moving Objects Thermo if they are not glued down. 1400 Score Bubbles can fit in a blank level when unglued. (Thanks! to Burnvictim42)


----------

Objects Being too Close Together
This acts sort of like a global thermometer, but at a local level. What this means is that if you have any of your other thermos not filled yet, but you have any of those thermos concentrated in a small area, it will trigger the Objects Being too Close Together Thermo. If you get this one, your objects will start to be replaced with exclamation points to signify that you are over-taxing the system.

Other Points of interest
By gluing adjacent objects together and by stapling them with Dark Matter, it will reduce this thermo, as well as the Moving Objects Thermo.
Open


----------

Objects and Shapes
This thermo is concerned with Speakers, Sounds Objects, and MM objects? [citation needed]

----------

Emitters (Contributed initially by goldenclaw13)
An incredibly easy way to raise your thermometer is - can you guess? That's right, emitters! Emitters can be fun to play with...but also deadly to your Thermo. Emitting lots and lots of moving parts will cause the system to have to stop and think about the physics of each emitted object. They can be used efficiently, but only when you when you consider all the factors for emitted objects.

An important consideration for creating emitters is the Max Emitted at Once option. The game will anticipate all possible objects being emitted at once when calculating the Thermo, so it is necessary to reduce this figure as much as possible. If you can get away with emitting only 4, do not set the Max Emitted at Once to 5.

Another part of it is complicated objects, as they will add even more edges, decorations, and pretty much anything else from this guide. Thus, every single one of your thermometers could be raised, making you stop and wonder what you did wrong.

Other Points of Interest:
Stop and think - how many of each emitted object do you actually need? Minimize this as much as possible Instead of having your emitter always on, attach them to some sort of trigger that is activated by the player in play mode. This is important since anything emitted in create mode does not count towards the number emitted in play mode. It can either be a permanent ON trigger, or some other way of dictating when the object is emitted (i.e. a One-Shot Switch) Open

----------

Creature Brains
This thermo is very simple. You are allowed about 300 brains when they are at default settings attached to non-moving objects. This is likely to go up if you add movement to the creature. [citation needed]

Other Points of Interest:
Even though they have their own thermo, the materials and objects used to construct the creatures will contribute to their own respective thermos.

----------

Connectors
The Connectors Thermo deals with the connectors, such as pistons, rods, springs, etc. I only tested for pistons to find that we were allotted way more space than we needed (about 750). Not much else to add. They are their own separate thermo, so it becomes a non-issue.

Other Points of Interest:
Even though they have their own thermo, the objects that connectors attach to will contribute to their own thermos.
Neither the stiffness of the connector, nor the material that it is connected to is a factor in the calculation of the Connectors Thermo.

----------
This tutorial is a work in progress. If you have suggestions or amends, post a reply. If you're willing to type up a section, that would be great, but I'd ask that you stick to the format in place for continuity.

Thanks.

Comphy

----------

Contributers:
goldenclaw13, Rogar, CCubbage, rtm223, Burnvictim42, Teebonesy, SteveBigGuns, warlord_evil

Give these guys a hand for helping out.

Drakora
09-25-2009, 02:16 AM
Aha! With a few minutes of judging, testing, comparison, and looking at my thermo, I have proved my theory that Entrances use less Thermo than Infinite-Life checkpoints wrong. For some reason, they use more. Probably because entrances are activated. Don't know why, but I just thought I'd bring this up.

comphermc
09-25-2009, 02:25 AM
Lol, thanks.

Drakora
09-25-2009, 02:41 AM
Found something else. A level can hold 707 infinite-life checkpoints without overheating. One more and it overheats.

comphermc
09-25-2009, 02:43 AM
Found something else. A level can hold 77 infinite-life checkpoints without overheating. One more and it overheats.

That's it? Which message do you get?


------

This guide is just about wrapped up in terms on initial content. We have yet to address lights specifically, so I'm off to test that out and get some data.

Each section is now in spoiler tags for easier navigation, and the thread has been given a spiffy new title logo (which was way more heartache than it may have been worth - stupid sizing issues).

Cheers.

Drakora
09-25-2009, 02:48 AM
Whoops. I mean't 707. I got 4, but I can't remember which. Or was it 2? I know one was for Collected objects. And too much complexity. But, that was probably because of not spacing them.

comphermc
09-25-2009, 04:48 AM
Alright, I tested the lights and found that foggy lights and regular lights take up the same amount of Thermo and will overheat the Shapes and Collected Objects Thermo. Foggy lights do cause framerate drops, though. I squeezed in 1300 spotlights glued to DM triangles.

I also added a note in somewhere in the beginning about how the thermos do not actually act completely independent from one another, but for the purposes of the guide, we will treat them as such. Minimizing each thermo will logically minimize the overall thermo, any way you hack it. :p

-----

I would call this guide in working order, and just might call it finished. I included everything I wanted to include. That's not to mean I won't add anything to it, but I'd like any further additions to be along the lines of "pointers" to guide creators into thermo saving habits, rather than number crunches. If we include how many of everything will fit into the level, the guide will lose its purpose and get bogged down with numbers. You can still test things out and post them in the thread, but that doesn't mean they'll get added to the OP.

I would like to thank everyone who helped organize the thread and offered critiques here and there. As always, if you find something that needs to be added or changed, let me know (this includes grammatical corrections - contrary to popular belief, I'm not perfect). Hope you guys find this helpful!

:)

Comphy.

Zwollie
09-25-2009, 05:11 AM
Great job, Comph. Now you go make it into a video as well!! ;)

Takelow
09-25-2009, 06:18 AM
Wow! Great work guys! Great work.

I would i have read something like this when i started LBP creations. It would have reduce the headaches. ;)

comphermc
09-25-2009, 10:17 PM
The latest from our fearless leader...


Ok, I've run some basic tests, and here's the data:

As a preamble, these tests were run in a completely empty level void of anything except the basic background and Sackboy. All items placed down were 2 small grid spaces in width and in height, not counting the triangle shape which does not extend all the way to the top of a 2x2 square, and all items were thin (though preliminary testing showed that thickness has no effect).

The level overheated after placing...


1400 dark matter circles.
2500 dark matter squares.
2500 dark matter triangles.
1400 cardboard circles.
1500 cardboard squares.
1500 cardboard triangles.

This means that contrary to what Mm's thermometer video says, circles are not the least thermo-heavy items. In fact, they did worse in all tests. It seems that using triangles over squares has no discernible effect either.

I've added this to the Guide. Moral of the story - triangles and squares are treated as equivalent, while circles take up slightly more thermo.

goldenclaw13
09-26-2009, 05:14 PM
LOL, so MM was wrong? It's kinda of hard to imagine the creators of the game to mess up on the thermometer they programmed; and kinda sad :P

But maybe they were trying to send another message...although I'm not sure what that would be...

comphermc
09-26-2009, 05:25 PM
LOL, so MM was wrong? It's kinda of hard to imagine the creators of the game to mess up on the thermometer they programmed; and kinda sad :P

But maybe they were trying to send another message...although I'm not sure what that would be...

Maybe the message was the circles do not actually have a whole bunch of sides. Rather than complicate things, they just call them simple.

I 'unno...?

rtm223
09-26-2009, 05:37 PM
LOL, so MM was wrong? It's kinda of hard to imagine the creators of the game to mess up on the thermometer they programmed; and kinda sad :P

I can think of three or four points where the info they give in the video goes against all the evidence I've seen. We have to bear in mind, these aren't the people that made the thermo algorithms. While it should have been thoroughly checked by the engineers beforehand, maybe it wasn't, they probably have plenty on with bugfixes and new feature additions. It's not like it matters that much to MM if there are slight errors in their video afterall.

goldenclaw13
09-27-2009, 03:13 AM
I can't think of three or four points where the info they give in the video goes against all the evidence I've seen. We have to bear in mind, these aren't the people that made the thermo algorithms. While it should have been thoroughly checked by the engineers beforehand, maybe it wasn't, they probably have plenty on with bugfixes and new feature additions. It's not like it matters that much to MM if there are slight errors in their video afterall.

I didn't mean they weren't smart anything, if they weren't smart none of us would be talking on this forum or playing this game :p I was just kind of pointing to the fact that if they want to help us, they should make sure as many of their facts they have a correct, and should be able to back them up. And no, none of the little mistakes the have made really make a big difference; they took their time to help us and we should definitely thank them for that.

And as we have already seen the game isn't perfect (Cow glitch, Extra layers, Amount of bugs etc.) , so don't think that I meant for these mistakes to be so important.

And sorry if I sound harsh or anything in my posts - I really don't try to.

rtm223
09-27-2009, 11:19 AM
I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. I wasn't being critical of you, I was in fact being critical of MM and the fact that the info isn't coming from the right sources and probably wasn't checked thoroughly enough.

If anything I think I was being harsher than you :)


Edit - it probably would have helped if I'd started that first sentence off with "I can", rather than "I can't" lol. See if it makes more sense now :p

.

comphermc
09-27-2009, 01:28 PM
Alright, party people. I've added a section to the Emitters Thermo that was contributed by Treas. Everyone be sure to thank him. This section details how to trick the Emitter Thermo. Have a read, and thanks again to Treas.

TheFirstAvenger
09-28-2009, 01:43 PM
Just discovered this thread, I saw it mentioned in another thread so I tried looking for it.

"Most early creators are convinced that if they reduce the number of materials they use in their levels, then they can fit more in... right? Wrong!"

-Although I have to disagree with this part, if you only used 2-3 Materials on a level you could make it alot longer than if you used more.

Rogar
09-28-2009, 02:58 PM
I'll save Rtm223 another fit... ;)


"Most early creators are convinced that if they reduce the number of materials they use in their levels, then they can fit more in... right? Wrong!"

-Although I have to disagree with this part, if you only used 2-3 Materials on a level you could make it alot longer than if you used more.

That's exactly the point of that statement. There are a lot of creators who just like you still believe this to be true. But if you accept that there are multiple thermometers, it's a small step to conclude that the number of materials doesn't directly affect the size of a level.

If you want some evidence, have a look at Rtm223's Subterranean Setbacks, it's huge and complex, but it just keeps throwing new materials your way.

rtm223
09-28-2009, 03:06 PM
Yeah, you're looking at around 20 different materials in that, possibly more. Teebonesy did add some evidence that it's not completely separate. He could only squeeze 8 into a level I think.

Although, we do need to test how the mesh items interact with materials thermo. I seem to remember they add a chunk on as well as adding to various other therms. Not 100% atm though

TheFirstAvenger
09-28-2009, 03:13 PM
I'll save Rtm223 another fit... ;)



That's exactly the point of that statement. There are a lot of creators who just like you still believe this to be true. But if you accept that there are multiple thermometers, it's a small step to conclude that the number of materials doesn't directly affect the size of a level.

If you want some evidence, have a look at Rtm223's Subterranean Setbacks, it's huge and complex, but it just keeps throwing new materials your way.

I already knew that there were lots of thermometers, I learned that months ago. But you can make levels longer if for example I use only 1 material in a level compared to if I used 10 materials. Just look at RickyBobby-91's newest level, long as hell, it only uses 2 maybe 3 materials... If he were to use more materials then he wouldn't be able to fit everything that there is now.

rtm223
09-28-2009, 03:20 PM
If he were to use more materials then he wouldn't be able to fit everything that there is now.

Has he gone in and tested this? I.e. tweaked materials to others until the thermo explodes.


Actually, that level isn't even that long. 10 mins is reasonable length and it is very detailed - and bloody pretty. But I doubt the 4-5 materials he used are the limiting factor, complex shapes would be my guess. But that is clearly speculation.

Rogar
09-28-2009, 03:34 PM
I already knew that there were lots of thermometers, I learned that months ago. But you can make levels longer if for example I use only 1 material in a level compared to if I used 10 materials. Just look at RickyBobby-91's newest level, long as hell, it only uses 2 maybe 3 materials... If he were to use more materials then he wouldn't be able to fit everything that there is now.

RickyBobby-91's new level (which I have never seen, to be clear about this) is just anecdotal evidence unless we can somehow measure its length and see that it is longer than Subterranean Setbacks. But that is not possible, we just have the multiple thermometers to go on. And they suggest that limiting materials does not necessarily leave more room for building.

There are still some unexplained matters, but until someone does a proper experiment that proves materials have a significant effect on level size, I'll stick with the current theory.

I do love this whole science of LBP stuff. :p

comphermc
09-28-2009, 05:26 PM
I appreciate the debate, but it is evident that it is partly true and partly false. They are a variety of factors, including what rtm hinted at with the material properties themselves. There is one thing that nobody has mentioned yet, and that is how materials are related to other materials. It seems that materials are divided into different classes, for which they are treated to be essentially the same. I'm not sure, but I'm fairly certain I could include every single sponge material in a level and my thermo would be fine. The reason? They are essentially the same material, just reskinned/resurfaced to look differently The same goes for many of the stone materials, as well as the cardboard materials (and maybe even dissolve is grouped in with cardboard). I'm a bit confused about how wood works, but my gut tells me it's similar. Problems generally arise when you include materials that have other features, such as partial transparency and actual geometries.

I have made a note in the guide that the thermos do not act completely independent from one another, but they are essentially independent. There is some overlap here and there which we can't be certain of without speaking directly with the engineers. That being said, materials should not need to be limited to only a handful of options. You can build an exceptionally long level with 20 different materials, as in the case with rtm, but limiting yourself to 4 or 5 materials will have little to no effect on the entire level itself. It would be better advice to make a level with simple geometry when trying to maximize the content. As an example, I direct you to my Aperture Science levels. The first two were created with no thought towards the different materials and such, and the limiting factor turned out to be complex shapes. I must have about 12-15 materials in each level.

TheFirstAvenger
09-29-2009, 02:22 AM
RickyBobby-91's new level (which I have never seen, to be clear about this) is just anecdotal evidence unless we can somehow measure its length and see that it is longer than Subterranean Setbacks. But that is not possible, we just have the multiple thermometers to go on. And they suggest that limiting materials does not necessarily leave more room for building.

There are still some unexplained matters, but until someone does a proper experiment that proves materials have a significant effect on level size, I'll stick with the current theory.

I do love this whole science of LBP stuff. :p

You can check out the thread he made over on the level showcase, truly a great level.:)


As said before, we can't be 100% certain of what we say is true. I honestly don't trust that Thermometer and never turn my back on it when I create...there are after all quite a few bugs in this game.

comphermc
09-29-2009, 07:23 PM
Alright, hopefully this is the last update for a while. I have added another section about tricking emitters, which was submitted by SteveBigGuns. Also, I have added a link at the top to a GoogleDocs version of the guide in the rare event that someone wants it in that form.

Cheers.

s3xNstilettos
09-30-2009, 02:13 AM
Excellent thread, this will prove very useful. I knew most of that stuff already, but also learned some new things. :)

BSprague
09-30-2009, 02:40 AM
The "overlap" that we are talking about is just the ability of a change or object to influence more than one thermometer. For example, placing a square effects the shapes and materials thermometer. It's not that the thermometers necessarily effect one another, but that changes affect several thermometers

comphermc
09-30-2009, 02:44 AM
The "overlap" that we are talking about is just the ability of a change or object to influence more than one thermometer. For example, placing a square effects the shapes and materials thermometer. It's not that the thermometers necessarily effect one another, but that changes affect several thermometers

What we are referring to is how the materials thermo could be very low, while everything else is very high. The thermo would likely overheat by adding a material to it. This shouldn't make sense unless we think of there being some kind of overlap. We can never be certain, though.

Would this mean that everything adds at least a little bit to every thermo?

BSprague
09-30-2009, 02:47 AM
Would this mean that everything adds at least a little bit to every thermo?

Not necessarily. For example, let's say that your complex shapes thermometer is very high (on the verge of overheating), but you made your entire level out of one material. Then, you add a chunk of some other material. Your thermometer overheats, but it isn't because you added a new material, it's because adding that also effects the shapes thermometer.

rseah
10-01-2009, 03:46 AM
very useful still mm tips video is not as good as this

Powershifter
10-01-2009, 06:27 PM
Weird..... I've been watching it the last several days pretty consistently while working on Splat III - I've got 5 of the thermos at around 90%. Hmmm....

I just finished reading the overview and wow, my eyes have been opened! But I'm left with two questions, can you tell how full each thermometer is, or can you only estimate? I quoted CCubbage because he seems to be able to do what I'm asking. Also, is the thermo displayed in create mode really the one that's most full, or is it an 'overall' thermo?

Forgive me for not reading all 87 posts. These questions may have been covered already.

Thanks :)

EDIT: Just FYI - I used the googledoc ;)

CCubbage
10-01-2009, 07:29 PM
I just finished reading the overview and wow, my eyes have been opened! But I'm left with two questions, can you tell how full each thermometer is, or can you only estimate? I quoted CCubbage because he seems to be able to do what I'm asking. Also, is the thermo displayed in create mode really the one that's most full, or is it an 'overall' thermo?

Forgive me for not reading all 87 posts. These questions may have been covered already.

Thanks :)

EDIT: Just FYI - I used the googledoc ;)
When I go into Splat III in create mode it says something like "Your level is about to overheat. Try to use "Less Materials" and "Less Shapes" and "Less stickers and decorations" (the thermos themselves are even in a different color than the rest of the text.

So, it seems to be listing out multiple thermos when I go into the level... I don't know whether anyone else is experiencing this - rtm, I think, says his isn't doing this. But based on this I have 3 thermos near the top (actually more, but I don't exactly remember without looking at the TV).

Interestingly, even though there may be overlap in thermos and we don't know what the details to this are, I had an interesting experience with Splat Invaders II a while back.

I built the ENTIRE level out of really limited materials - probably 4. When I had the entire level built and was at about 95% thermo... and was getting, obviously, the message constantly to use less objects... I then just started switching different materials like MAD - I added about 15 more different materials and after I was totally done, the thermo didn't go up at ALL. So, that was an extreme case showing the separation of thermos. If I had already been up at the top based on a different thermo, would it have affected it? I don't know. But I DO know with the separate (unglued) objects thermo and the complex shapes thermo near the top adding a ton of materials did NOTHING.

Powershifter
10-01-2009, 08:06 PM
When I go into Splat III in create mode it says something like "Your level is about to overheat. Try to use "Less Materials" and "Less Shapes" and "Less stickers and decorations" (the thermos themselves are even in a different color than the rest of the text.

So, it seems to be listing out multiple thermos when I go into the level... I don't know whether anyone else is experiencing this - rtm, I think, says his isn't doing this. But based on this I have 3 thermos near the top (actually more, but I don't exactly remember without looking at the TV).

Interestingly, even though there may be overlap in thermos and we don't know what the details to this are, I had an interesting experience with Splat Invaders II a while back.

I built the ENTIRE level out of really limited materials - probably 4. When I had the entire level built and was at about 95% thermo... and was getting, obviously, the message constantly to use less objects... I then just started switching different materials like MAD - I added about 15 more different materials and after I was totally done, the thermo didn't go up at ALL. So, that was an extreme case showing the separation of thermos. If I had already been up at the top based on a different thermo, would it have affected it? I don't know. But I DO know with the separate (unglued) objects thermo and the complex shapes thermo near the top adding a ton of materials did NOTHING.

So basically, you can tell which thermometers are full by the warning text the game displays?

I seem to remember the text being different colors during these warning messages in previous levels.

CCubbage
10-01-2009, 09:10 PM
Definately - pay attention to the warnings. They represent the different thermos.

Drakora
10-19-2009, 07:54 PM
Hmm, by the looks of things, every single object has it's own thermometer. How else could it say when an object is too complex?

comphermc
10-19-2009, 09:01 PM
Hmm, by the looks of things, every single object has it's own thermometer. How else could it say when an object is too complex?

I think it's more correct to say that every material has a vertex limit. Exceed that and you don't be able to add any more.

Drakora
10-19-2009, 10:32 PM
Oh, that's what I meant. *mumbles "nobody suspects a thing" under my breath*

rtm223
10-19-2009, 10:40 PM
If it makes you feel better, you might as well be right, it's purely semantics. The level thermometer is just a numeric limit (probably). So, if you like, each object could be considered to have it's own, simple thermometer.

:)

.

comphermc
10-20-2009, 09:58 PM
Ah, I wasn't trying to cut you down, Drakon. It was merely my intention to clarify it as "materials" and not "objects". I guess technically, the game calls it "shapes."

:p

lbpholic
10-24-2009, 10:10 AM
thanks a lot for this i watched that episode the other day and then thought i would have a look at this this must have taken a lot of time to do so well done it is a lot easier to have a compkete list of what fills your thewrmo up rather than remembering all of them from the video lol thanks a lot

Drakora
11-21-2009, 05:02 PM
Yeah, this is a very good guide. However, even though I've probably said this before, entrances take up more thermo than any other checkpoints. And it isn't because they're activated. Activating the other checkpoints doesn't seem to have an effect on the thermo.
Also, I've experienced a slight defect with the thermometer. In one of my beta levels, whenever I unpause it, the thermo drops by a bar. Very perplexing, do you think you know why it does that?

comphermc
11-21-2009, 06:37 PM
No, idea, but you should notice it slowly climbing back up. Or else, I could take an overheated level and hit rewind a few times to cancel the thermo.

Drakora
11-21-2009, 06:38 PM
No, that never happens. I just unpause it, and the thermo goes down a bit. I didn't even ress any other buttons.

comphermc
11-21-2009, 06:43 PM
Oh, I'm sorry - I misread unpause for "rewind". I think I've heard of the unpause thing before, but it's not really something to be concerned about. Can't complain about lower thermo, eh!?

That's weird about the start gate, though. I may have to start cutting it from me levels...

rtm223
11-21-2009, 08:32 PM
Unpause issue is liable to be emitters. It's a bit complicated but emitters often emit in pause mode. These emissions do not count towards the max emitted at once rule and are not tied to the emitter so are effectively new objects, increasing the thermo. If the object in question has a limited lifespan then it will evaporate, reducing therm again.

Also note that if these emitters are emitting gas or dark matter (or objects glued to dark matter) you could end up with multiple copies, further increasing the thermo.


This especially happens with emitters linked to one-shot switches. I have 2 in Setbacks that if I rewind will always emit some gas, throwing my level into overheated, and then I have to go over there and delete them so I can continue :rolleyes:

Drakora
11-21-2009, 08:33 PM
Oh. Thanks for clearing that up.

rtm223
11-21-2009, 08:36 PM
Generally, it's handy to have all of your emitters either blocked with dissolve (which you can dissolve at the beginning of the level) or activated by a permanent switch (again, activate at the beginning of the level).

This way you have them disabled in create mode.

comphermc
11-21-2009, 09:15 PM
Generally, it's handy to have all of your emitters either blocked with dissolve (which you can dissolve at the beginning of the level) or activated by a permanent switch (again, activate at the beginning of the level).

This way you have them disabled in create mode.

Ah, yes. Great advice. I've used this in the past, but never thought twice about it.

This method is most prevalent when you want to failure-safe a puzzle. For example, let's say that you have a block in your level that you expect the player to drag around. We want to ensure that if they break the block, then it will respawn a new one. The best way to do this is to attach a key to the block, and place a key switch of the same color over the whole area that they are allowed to take the block (it's best to designate one color for this). If you invert the switch, set it to ON, and wire it to the emitter, it will try emitting the object as long as there isn't one already present.

Now, you can place a chunk of dissolve in the area that you are trying to emit the object (thereby preventing it from emitting). It will try to emit, but until the dissolve blocker is gone, it will not do so. Set up a prox switch to dissolve the block away sometime before you come along the room.

Viola, you're done. Failure safe.

rtm223
11-22-2009, 11:20 AM
Now, you can place a chunk of dissolve in the area that you are trying to emit the object (thereby preventing it from emitting). It will try to emit, but until the dissolve blocker is gone, it will not do so. Set up a prox switch to dissolve the block away sometime before you come along the room.

bear in mind that you canoot use this for emitted gas, and if emitting dark matter the dissolve will have to be loose (-> thermo bump)

And if you have multiple emitters that need blocking, it will be more thermo-efficient to trigger them all using a single perm. Bear in mind that to keep something permanently off you can just have a mag switch on a piece of dissolve, and do away with the key (what? Stop looking at me like that!! This is the thermo-saving thread, right? Just doing my part...)

comphermc
11-22-2009, 01:21 PM
Bear in mind that to keep something permanently off you can just have a mag switch on a piece of dissolve, and do away with the key (what? Stop looking at me like that!! This is the thermo-saving thread, right? Just doing my part...)

Haha, I like it.

I used a much more rudimentary method in my Brain Chain level. You should notice that when a tractor beam turns on, the emitters turn off. What I did was actually put the emitter on a piston. When the tractor beam was on, the piston contracted so that the emitter was trying to emit inside of a wall. I know, I know - still doesn't work with gas.

I think your little mag key switch trick is the best bet, though.

:)

rtm223
12-08-2009, 12:08 AM
OK, update time. I'm afraid I have nothing even vaguely conclusive to tell you except this:


Using less vertices will not always reduce complex shapes thermo.


Indeed. Basically, my cursory test involved pushing setbacks to the point that adding a single vertex to a shape (using corner editor) would push the complex shapes therm over the edge.

Then I went around removing corners from logic systems. Basically turning squares into triangles to see if I could use those saved resources elsewhere. So I deleted one corner from a square and then tried to add a corner into a piece of scenery. No dice.

So I kept on going and at the 6th square -> triangle edit, I blew my thermo. My first thought was that squares might be somehow exempt (or at least have reduced impact) on the complex shapes, as they are default shapes. Well this is not the case, as every "square" I edited was in fact a rectangle made by smearing with the square brush (and cutting away with the square brush to give small clearances).

Is it possible that grid-aligned rectangles are somehow more thermoficcient?? I don't know, I don't have time for a full investigation (too many fingers in too many LittleBigPies) , but it's certainly weird.

If anyone has time to do something thorough on this, then it'd be great.

.

Luos_83
12-09-2009, 01:37 PM
Many people will hold up sections of their level using "Dark Matter Staples" or little pieces of Dark Matter for support. There are many ways to use this method, but one way to use it efficiently. The most efficient way to use a DM staple is to create a triangle of it (triangles only have 3 sides...d'uh) and glue it to your object. Avoid putting a chunk of DM inside the object, as it adds edges to the object, as well as the DM itself.Glueing dm to object = bad,
I always suggest using a stiffened rod between dm and object.
this way you can use the dm for more than one object, and as far as my experience goes, glue-ing just costs more thermo in the end.
especially in highly detailed surroundings.
(things get more complex when glue-ing)

rtm223
12-09-2009, 02:21 PM
I'd have to check but I think attaching objects by rods makes them count as moving objects, rather than static objects. So that's a massive bump to the moving objects thermo - and there really isn't a whole lot of room for moving objects. This could of course be wrong.

But in addition you are adding to conenctors and collected objects thermos for every rod, just to save a little bit of dark matter. You are going to still be glueing lots of objects to what's on the end of each rod anyway, so may as well add a tiny piece of dark matter - it's not really gonna make that much difference.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Luos_83
12-09-2009, 04:08 PM
I have never glue'd dm to my rooms/enviroments and always connected them with stiffened rods. (besides in my first two levels).
That would mean 100's of moving objects.

I might have to try it in my latest level, if the thermo drops/raise I know enough.
will post my findings obviously.

comphermc
12-09-2009, 04:53 PM
I dunno - the calculation of the basic DM shapes is sooooo low anyways, I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. I do it just because it's quicker to build with DM staples attached to objects (and it makes pieces of the level completely modular so I can move them about).

rtm223
12-09-2009, 04:57 PM
As I said that rod thing was speculation - could be if directly connected then they count as static - but does it affect the strength of connectors (due to the chained connectors thang.


and it makes pieces of the level completely modular so I can move them about

Yeah I forgot to mention that bit, prob the best reason to do it if your create methods include hack, hack, and hack some more :p

Luos_83
12-10-2009, 11:12 AM
Ok I "tested" the glue DM vs stiff rods > DM.
(why do I feel naughty when saying "stiff rods"?)

In 4 of my "maxed-out-thermo-levels" I replaced all DM's with Stiff rods by DM that got glued against the objects/scenery.
In 3 levels it did not mather, even deleting 100 rods did not lower my thermo.
Deleting all the dm and replacing them with glued dm did not lower my thermo, even after all the rods got deleted.

It just didnt mather.
Then I went to the 4th level, I chose this one because I remember that the final part of the level was one big object hold together by 1 DM with a stiff rod.
I removed the DM with Rod and glued a DM right onto it.
It actually got me 1 thermo-bar back.
So I was.. what is different from this one?
And then I noticed, at first only the floor was DM-ed and there where a lot of objects on top of it that wherent glued.
By glue-ing the DM to the floor it glued itself to some of the other objects and therefore less moving objects and less memory being used.
after deleting that glue-ed on DM (without any loss of the just gained thermo-bar)

Replacing the glued DM with a DM > Stiff rod did not mather.
both ways seems to be doing exactly the same.

and for rtm's sake, I deleted 100's of rods and that didnt mather on the thermo at all.
(but 100 small blocks of DM didnt influence the thermo as well)

rtm223
12-10-2009, 12:10 PM
Indeed, but it depends what thermo you have maxxed out. In a logic heavy level, where collected objects thermo is maxed out, 100 rods is a massive deal, whereas if you've maxed out individual objects, you'd be much better off using the rods rather than lots of pieces of dark matter. If you didn't have a full collected objects thermo, then the rods method would free up extra objects thermo for you. It's all about balancing the resources available.

Remember that the thermo is not one stack of "memory", it is multiple resource groups with set limits. The problem is you can only ever see the most full one, so you don't know what is going on in the others. The fact that adding and deleting 100 rods does not affect your visible does not mean that it isn't affecting the collected objects thermo that you can't see. It's a right pain and I just hope a future update gives us visibility of multiple thermos, even if you have to go into the menu to see it.


Edit: As a case in point, in setbacks I needed to add a winch to solve a minor bug that awesomemans found. My collected objects therm is so high that I cannot place a winch in the level without bursting it. Took about half an hour to restructure a collapsing scene to use one less rod, at which point I could place a winch and be done with it. For me, having everything supported by rods in that level would have killed it - I would have had to drop a ton of logic to achieve that. Whereas using darkmatter glued on meant I had to lose a bit of scenery here and there. For me, that is the preferable option, but it varies from level to level.

Luos_83
12-10-2009, 12:26 PM
I agree with you on that,
It will change the way I build levels from now on.

I will probably use glued dm a little bit more, and use glue more in particular.
(if I use it 5 times in a level it was a lot).

I am all for multiple thermo's,
I do think MM did not expect that part of the community would go all ubernerd/geek-like on optimising/engine specifics.

rtm223
12-10-2009, 12:32 PM
Just made an edit if you didn't see it.

No, I think MM would be surprised (and probably quite proud), that the engine has provoked so much fascination amongst the community. I hope the software engineers know about us doing stuff like this and it brings a tear to their eyes lol. Alex Evans did say to Grant that he was keen on giving us visibility of the separate therms, so fingers crossed.

Luos_83
12-10-2009, 03:22 PM
I read your edit,

We should compare levels, i dont think people have compared levels on an editorial basis.
In my ued/unreal time we all could open an unreal map and see what the authors did.
we could even open original ut levels and see what was done.

Maybe have 5 or so env. artists create the same 1 or 2 rooms in their own way.
for instance, room 10-10 (huge) grid blocks, contains 15 objects, two switches, this and that and see what works best.
Logic-wise things are allready optimised more than I could dream of a year ago,
but strangely the visual quality has not improved that much over the past year.. and that surprises me.

but.. thats a little bit offtopic.

enodrawkcab
12-30-2009, 10:15 PM
Reflecting on playing the POTC levels it seems to me that MM used alot of bolts in their non moving scenery.

Does this have to do with the thermo value of bolts vs glue?

CCubbage
12-30-2009, 10:23 PM
Reflecting on playing the POTC levels it seems to me that MM used alot of bolts in their non moving scenery.

Does this have to do with the thermo value of bolts vs glue?
Probably not.... things that are bolted are still effected by physics, so it would use more of at least THAT thermo.

Many of the places I saw that they used bolts seemed to be because it needed to move, or was done simply for visuals (the bolt looked good there).

KimuraOkagawa
01-06-2010, 10:57 PM
Another possibility of Bolts Vs. Glued DM (besides visuals) is that it is relatively hard to glue selectively. (I had this problem like nine times in my two-stage elevator before I just scrapped the thing and reworked the level so I could use a standard one-stage Piston.) Even if you know how to glue directionally (push left stick in direction you want to glue, or L1 and L2 for gluing through layers selectively), it can still be a big pain if an object that must move is right next to an object that must be glued. And gluing both, then detatching the moving object is a bigger pain if the moving object had a connector on it.
Bolts (and Rods), on the other hand, are truly selective in pseudo-gluing. As long as you remember to set Strength to 10 (or make the Rod stiff... man that is funny, and I dunno why), connected objects act like they're glued. The bonus is that they "glue" only the exact object they're connected to. If you've got a bit of logic in front of a wall, and you Directional Glue the wall forward, well, you just ruined your logic. If you use a Bolt between the wall and That Which Needs Gluing, objects that need to stay movable are safe.

CCubbage
01-06-2010, 11:03 PM
Another possibility of Bolts Vs. Glued DM (besides visuals) is that it is relatively hard to glue selectively. (I had this problem like nine times in my two-stage elevator before I just scrapped the thing and reworked the level so I could use a standard one-stage Piston.) Even if you know how to glue directionally (push left stick in direction you want to glue, or L1 and L2 for gluing through layers selectively), it can still be a big pain if an object that must move is right next to an object that must be glued. And gluing both, then detatching the moving object is a bigger pain if the moving object had a connector on it.
Bolts (and Rods), on the other hand, are truly selective in pseudo-gluing. As long as you remember to set Strength to 10 (or make the Rod stiff... man that is funny, and I dunno why), connected objects act like they're glued. The bonus is that they "glue" only the exact object they're connected to. If you've got a bit of logic in front of a wall, and you Directional Glue the wall forward, well, you just ruined your logic. If you use a Bolt between the wall and That Which Needs Gluing, objects that need to stay movable are safe.
There are definately some things that can help with selective gluing, however.

For instance, you can glue a small spot of material to the thing you are trying to glue to, then copy the material you wish to glue over the small spot. If thermo is a consideration, this is definately an option.

Thegide
01-06-2010, 11:16 PM
Ok I've got one for you guys.

Setting the timing for things like pistons and wobble bolts to 0.1 seconds works fine in empty levels, but it appears that once your level starts to fill up, setting time to 0.1s is indifferent from 0.0s (in other words, it stops moving). The minimum functional time in busy levels appears to be 0.2s.

The assumption I've come to is that when moving object thermo starts to fill up, the game engine can no longer calculate every movement at 0.1s intervals, and so displacement cycles are forced longer, to 0.2s.

Just wondering if anyone's got bright ideas to get around this. This issue has now caused me grief on two occasions, where I'm trying to build oscillation-based devices.

comphermc
01-06-2010, 11:52 PM
Well, that has since been dubbed the 160-hour glitch, but I'm not sure there is any particular fix for it other than copying the whole level into a blank one. This is what many creators have had to do with large levels. The name is not necessarily accurate, as it can happen way sooner than 160 hours. I've had it happen in my latest, but luckily I didn't have anything that needed to move at .1 intervals. Just so you know, directional switch controlled pistons will continue to work regardless.

Interesting suggestion that it's tied into moving objects thermo. That would make sense. Anyone willing to test that? Haha.

:)

Incinerator22
01-07-2010, 12:01 AM
Now that this is active again I can say if the sticker thermo is overheated you can't shoot the paintinator. It doesn't give you the click sound though, it gives you that sound that happens if you try to shoot with your hand in a wall.

comphermc
01-07-2010, 04:04 AM
Really? I thought it was a click... nice catch.

Incinerator22
01-07-2010, 04:40 AM
It was pretty funny actually...

I was playing with rustbukkit and I blew up one of my hugely detailed tanks and there were at least a dozen bomb smudge stickers per intricate piece :p

rtm223
01-07-2010, 08:59 AM
Just so you know, directional switch controlled pistons will continue to work regardless Fixed ;)



Interesting suggestion that it's tied into moving objects thermo. That would make sense. Anyone willing to test that? Haha.

:)

Someone did, a little while ago. Answer was negative.



For instance, you can glue a small spot of material to the thing you are trying to glue to, then copy the material you wish to glue over the small spot. If thermo is a consideration, this is definately an option.

I've been doing this recently to glue two thick layer pieces together, without gluing them to the thin layer in between. Is very very useful


If you use a Bolt between the wall and That Which Needs Gluing, objects that need to stay movable are safe.

Objects connected by bolts can definitely be knocked out of alignment, so I'm pretty sure they will count towards the thermo implications for both collected objects and moving objects. That's a big lose IMO.

comphermc
01-07-2010, 11:35 AM
Fixed ;)

Ah, I forgot. :cry: ...I tend to not activate pistons to an ON setting too often.

CCubbage
01-07-2010, 01:09 PM
Actually, I think TheGide was more referring to a pistons ability to function properly with lag (which gets really wacky with multi-player).... not the 160 hour glitch.

If the system is lagging, the pistons don't work the same. So, setting to a slower speed allows the piston to catch up. I'm not totally sure what this has to do with thermo, but it is certainly good info to keep in mind with multi-player levels.

rtm223
01-28-2010, 11:33 PM
Updates!

Right, stiff rods definitely don't stop objects contributing to moving objects thermo. I tested this with 3x3 sets of blocks of wood and glued them to a piece of dark matter (249 in level) and then unglued the blocks of DM and connected with a rod (155 in a level, moving objects is the thermo at risk). Now I think we already knew this but I decided to do it again anyway. I also tested the same configuration (9 squares glued to dark matter) where all ten of the squares were dark matter and this also comes out at 249. Useful just to tick the box that objects glued to dark matter are definitely considered as dark matter. Again, I think we covered this but the moving objects therm is of particular interest to me right now, so I wanted to check these things for myself.

Now for the interesting part. I've suspected this for some time, but never had chance to test, but I have a new exploit to deceive the thermo calc. If you have a moving object and you connect it to Dark matter, via a piece of dissolve, it will NOT count as moving. So you can actually force the possibility of more moving objects into your level by doing this.

Of course, like the emitter tricks you can only deceive the thermo for too long, so if you are going to push the boundaries of the moving objects thermo in this way, then remember to get your big crushy rocks out :)


Edit. I also did a different test that I forgot to mention. The interaction between moving objects thermo and complex shapes. There isn't one seemingly. I thought there might be some notion of complex shapes moving about is a bit harder to deal with, but it is, then I couldn't find any evidence of it, which is good news really.


Oh, also, this:


And if you have multiple emitters that need blocking, it will be more thermo-efficient to trigger them all using a single perm. Bear in mind that to keep something permanently off you can just have a mag switch on a piece of dissolve, and do away with the key (what? Stop looking at me like that!! This is the thermo-saving thread, right? Just doing my part...)

Awfully inefficient. What you actually want to do is place a prox on a piece of dissolve and connect it's on/off signal to

The piece of dissolve it is on
All the emitters you want held off.


That way sacky runs up to the prox, dissolves the dissolve, which takes the prox with it and all the emitters are left unwired. Once again, stop looking at me like that!!! :(

comphermc
01-29-2010, 01:16 PM
Haha, that last one is totally going in my bag-o-tricks.

I will get to adding those other things to the original guide when I find some time. Thanks, rtm.

napero7
02-02-2010, 05:43 PM
I noticed that if you remove the sticker of the music box thingy, you save a tiny little bit of thermo :D

rtm223
02-06-2010, 12:40 PM
Gas qualifies as a moving object, even if the original material was dark matter. You can glue it down to dark matter to prevent this.


Note to people who gassify their spotlights to hold them up in the air: You may find that if moving objects thermo is giving you grief that it ould be better to glue all of the spots onto a single piece (big sheet) of dark matter.

julesyjules
02-14-2010, 04:34 PM
The first thing to understand when trying to manage your thermo, and squeezing every last bit of level out of your allocated space, is that each thermo acts seemingly independently of every others. While this is not entirely true, it is a good way to approach the management of all your different thermos. This means that even if one thermo is close to maxing out, you may have an immense amount of space to work with in your other thermos.

I was just re-reading the thread, i can't believe how helpful this basic bit of info is. I've always come up against the full thermo and made space one way or the other, but it never occurred to me that just because say, the shapes thermo is the one thats causing the limitations, i can still bung in a truckful of decorations or sound fx. Im such a twit!!

Kern
03-08-2010, 05:02 PM
Probably already know this; Materials aren't Thermo-ised by their "abilities" but are Thermo-ised by their render :D Go on, if you get alot of Cow Glitch you can place alot of the same ability but with different renders and the thermo shoots up...

hope that helps

Incinerator22
03-08-2010, 09:09 PM
Or in other words, exactly what was posted on luos_destruc's thread-which is still being debated.

Kern
03-09-2010, 07:14 AM
Or in other words, exactly what was posted on luos_destruc's thread-which is still being debated.

I posted this before reading that thread.

Aya042
03-11-2010, 12:12 AM
A circle will no longer behave as having "smooth" sides once any of the corners are edited or it is combined with another material. In terms of the physics engine, it is treated as a smooth circle when initially placed, so as to not tax the system any more than necessary.

This is not strictly true. You can actually delete up to two consecutive, or up to four non-consecutive vertices from a circle, and it's still treated as a perfect circle.

It's fairly easy to tell when a circle loses its "smoothness" - when it's smooth, if sackboy stands halfway between two vertices, he'll appear to hover slightly above the surface. It looks very strange if you delete them both with the corner editor. :)

clarkdef
03-20-2010, 09:53 AM
Im pretty sure that there are 2 parts to the thermo, texture/any thing you can see, and colision/corner anything you can physically touch. I have done so many tests, stickers decorations/materials all stack with each other. Aswell as materials stacking with MMs special objects and rockets and bombs etc. Its my first time reading this thread and I find it interesting that moving things also apply to thermo usage.

rtm223
03-20-2010, 11:57 AM
Im pretty sure that there are 2 parts to the thermo, texture/any thing you can see, and colision/corner anything you can physically touch.

What about magnetic switches etc :p Definitely more than 2 parts to the thermo. Mostly it fits into those two broad categories, but there is far more of a split even within those.



I have done so many tests, stickers decorations/materials all stack with each other.

The stickers / materials stacking is not something I've ever looked into, but if Aya is correct about the materials thermo being largely (or completely) based upon textures, then arguably the number of different decorations should contribute to that, but probably not the actual number of decorations?

clarkdef
03-21-2010, 01:21 AM
I have tested switches they also stack with stickers. Anything you see stacks with anything you can see, anything you can collide with can stacks with anything you can collide with. If there are other thermos they would most likely be stings of information from switches and movable things.

Xario
04-19-2010, 06:18 AM
Hi there, is this thread still active? I've testet connectors, and I was not able to add one more to the 1000 that were already there :-) I had 750 winches and 250 pistons, (3w + 1p made an AND gate (after comphermc's I mean rtm's great design) and two of theses shared the DM, so each "piece" was 1 DM, 2 moving parts and 8 connectors.) Iterated replicating (7 times) lead to overheating (eventually of course) with the suggestion, to use less connectors, I deleted as view logic pieces as necessary and counted (well calculated: 8* 2^7 (=2^10 = 1024) - 3*8 = 1000. After that, I was not able, to attach any new connector (rod, bolt, whatever) to anything. So hypothesis: No more than 1000 connectors a level. Oh, I just realize, I didn't crush the entrance gate (if that matters, which I doubt, but anyway)...

rtm223
04-19-2010, 08:52 AM
made an AND gate (after comphermc's great design)

I assume from what you were writing this would be a 4-input AND gate with 3 winches / 1 piston?

Weird though, comphy lists the max number of connectors at 750, but you get 1000? I think in general the connectors limit is something that is of little consequence as you are more likely to max out the collected objects thermo quicker (connectors also contribute to that).


@clarkdef: I didn't see that response when you wrote it, but your statement
Anything you see stacks with anything you can see, anything you can collide with can stacks with anything you can collide with Can easilly be disproved by some very simple test cases. Could you maybe clarify how you get to these conclusions, as most evidence I've seen indicates that the thermo is far more complex than what you suggest.

Xario
04-19-2010, 07:41 PM
@rtm223: You're assuming correctly. And of course I meant your design (i'll correct it asap) :-) But as I read it, comphy just got bored after 750. And the "collected objects" is a pretty complex thermo compared to "connectors". I'm not sure whether 'of little consequence' is a useful argument in this thread. It showed ME I don't even have to think about expanding my Lumines-grid towards 18x10, as long as I need eight connectors for each square. As for this guide: '1000 is max' is surely of another quality than '750 do work', right?!

Btw: I can't expand the spoilertags with the ps3 browser.

comphermc
04-23-2010, 11:22 AM
1000 you say? Will edit when I return from tutoring. Editing that thing is a right pain! :)

comphermc
06-09-2010, 08:13 PM
New section added, regarding the initial bump of the thermo when using a new object/material.

Thanks goes out to incinerator22.

:)

Xario
06-09-2010, 08:49 PM
But I will notice that initial bump only, if the max of the new object's thermo(s) top(s) the max of the thermo which determined the actual display of thermo in my GUI before I inserted the object, right?

How about a thermo thread for LBP2? It could start with respect to that interview with Alex, where he explains how a more efficient game engine and optimization of free thermo will change thermo handeling (and expanding our possiblities therewith). It won't be possible anymore, to ... I say "manually" concentrate on unused thermos, if your GUI shows close to max, the internal thermo-calc will have taken "unused thermos" into account.