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Logic Pack
11-11-2009, 08:00 PM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/images/logic_pack/Advanced%20Pack%20%28small%29.png


The Advanced Pack is a pack of logic tools designed for Creators who consider themselves highly skilled with logic, and are generally able to design their own logic tools to fit a specific need. This pack is specifically designed to present Creators with new possibilities, and hopefully stimulate some new ideas as well. To play the Advanced Pack, simply search @LogicPack on the LittleBigPlanet servers and navigate to the Advanced Pack level. This pack requires the METAL GEAR SOLID® Pack, so if you don't yet have it, you'll need it before you can use the Logic Tools!


Logic Tools
The Advanced Pack Vault, which is the level in which you can collect the logic we're offering, includes these six logic tools:


Dissolve-free Permanent

A permanent switch designed without dissolve, to help those Creators who are tired of accidentally activating their permanent switches in Create mode. It can be reset extremely easily, without reconnecting or replacing anything.


Paintball-based Counter

A much-improved version of the Dissolve-based Counter, the Paintball-based Counter only uses one material and is much easier to configure. Requires the METAL GEAR SOLID® Pack to use.


Emitter-based Toggle

A toggle switch that uses an emitter to change the position of a magnetic key. Similar to the One-Shot Toggle in the Intermediate Pack, but with a different design to help offer more options and provide Creators with inspiration for other kinds of logic.


Notched Wheel logic

Uses a rotating "wheel" with notches in it to allow one input to toggle between four different outputs. We provide one design, but it is very easy to design new variations for other purposes.


Rhythmic Output

Uses magnetic keys on a rotating wheel to make an output activate based on a predetermined pattern. Useful for flickering lights, emitters, and other things.


Randomizer

This randomizer, unlike most others, is actually random. Since the player is the only truly unpredictable element in the entire level, we offer the option to allow the player to activate the randomizer, discreetly or otherwise. This means that you'll always have a random output with no observable pattern.




Tutorials
Along with the main Pack and the Vault, the Advanced Pack has three in-depth tutorials for you to dive into. They are as follows:
- Tutorial 3.1 - Designing an Advanced Elevator (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18351)

- Tutorial 3.2 - Creating a Chase Scene (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18349)

- Tutorial 3.3 - Developing an Atmosphere (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18344)

These tutorials are involving, requiring anywhere from an hour to three hours or more of dedicated playtime to complete them. If you get stuck at any point during these tutorials, each also has a companion level published on the LogicPack account. These copyable (yes, copyable!) companion levels are the final version of their matching tutorial, allowing you to copy them to your moon and pick them apart if you need to.

SLS10
11-13-2009, 10:16 PM
And comphermc said there wasn't a randomizer.

Bah!

comphermc
11-13-2009, 10:30 PM
And comphermc said there wasn't a randomizer.

Bah!

Well, had to keep you guessing right up until the end... :p

julesyjules
11-13-2009, 10:36 PM
The Advanced Pack seems to have been replaced with the Advanced Vault online - or am i being dense?

rtm223
11-13-2009, 10:37 PM
Confirmed!!! Argh CC what have you done!!!!

julesyjules
11-13-2009, 10:42 PM
Heh heh. A level about the most complex logic and you can't even publish it right. LOL. ; )

Anyway, I've played the first two and they're SO great. You've all done a fantastic job on this.

Gilgamesh
11-13-2009, 10:44 PM
Oh wow, I hope someone has a backup! :eek:

comphermc
11-13-2009, 10:44 PM
Son-of-a... we're working on it!

CC, get your Admin Cape - the day needs saving!!!

Edit: I have a backup from last week...

All fixed! Good work CC, and thanks Julesy!

mass_gamer
11-13-2009, 11:43 PM
Thank you SO much for these levels! I understood the basic kit already, but the intermediate and advanced packs were great! I had no idea you could make a sackboy follower. I'll try to invent a sackboy follower that works on both the x and y axis, so if you jump or have a jetpack, it will be right next to you still. I imagine it might need some stability work, though. Great job!

iGotFancyPants
11-13-2009, 11:55 PM
Can't wait to get my hands on that randomizer! :p

tru3_skitz0
11-14-2009, 02:03 AM
I cant wait to check these out.... I have been making my own logic boxes but I know there are better ways and Im sure this collection is the ticket to helping me improve my technique. Soooo awsome of u guys to do this for us. Many thanks! :D

Littlebigdude805
11-14-2009, 04:35 AM
lol the advanced pack was fixed just after i played it
after i finished it i though
"maaaaybe ill play it again just to make sure"
and tada it was fixed ^^
Amazing set of levels, i still have yet to check out all the tutorials though :3
My favorite tool was the notched wheel and randomizer, genius :)

Treas
11-14-2009, 10:32 AM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17081

"The most random element of each level is the player"




This randomizer, unlike most others, is actually random. Since the player is the only truly unpredictable element in the entire level, we offer the option to allow the player to activate the randomizer, discreetly or otherwise. This means that you'll always have a random output with no observable pattern.



Yay, I feel important!

Nice project, guys! I've already released my praise streak onto the main logic pack thread, so I'm gonna cut it short on this one. Amazing work!

crazii_nife
11-14-2009, 02:05 PM
where do you get the pack i cant find it anywhere

robotiod
11-14-2009, 02:06 PM
search @logicpack

rtm223
11-14-2009, 02:06 PM
Lol, where did you look? Is it down the back of the sofa? Stuff always ends up there in my experience.

Seriously though:
Search @logicpack
Look on page one of highest rated
Look on page 1-3 of cool pages
look through my hearted list

Gravel
11-14-2009, 04:24 PM
me thinks me detect a chest-puffing-out.

Congrats RTM.

The only drawback as I see it... is I now know your secondary acct!!!!

rtm223
11-14-2009, 04:30 PM
Congrats to everyone - the other members of the team put more into this than me :blush:

You don't know my tertiary account though ;)

KoRnDawwg
11-14-2009, 08:54 PM
I feel so much like a newb now.

Seriously, just playing through all these levels, I'm not joking, really, I'm not, these are the best levels I have ever played. Really, I haven't had so much fun in a level, ever. Very informative, well and thoroughly explained, and just a treat to play overall. Some of the things I saw just blew me away.

Testudini
11-15-2009, 02:39 AM
Awe..awes...awesome is so little for what this is.

4wheel
11-15-2009, 11:19 AM
Thank you so much for the pack, it couldn't have come at a better time! I've been working on a ball turret airplane and couldn't figure out how to get the hatch to close/open without forcing players to constantly hold/release the seat. The One-Shot Toggle and Emitter-based Toggle seem to be just what I needed.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart,
-4wheel

Asterix1806
11-26-2009, 01:18 PM
Just one question: why is the rhytmic output in the advanced pack? It seems pretty simple.

ConfusedCartman
11-26-2009, 07:30 PM
Just one question: why is the rhytmic output in the advanced pack? It seems pretty simple.
Things that had a smaller overall range of uses generally went in the Advanced Pack. The Rhythmic Output is simple, but it has a very specific use, so we didn't want to break consistency by including it earlier on in the Pack.

MrsSpookyBuz
11-26-2009, 07:45 PM
I've played all these over the last week or so. There are undoubtedly things I've learned - whether it be new things, or a different, better way to do things I already knew.

As mentioned by many, the presentation is superb, and that leads me on to the very best feature of these Logic Pack levels in my view: Accessibility.

It is second to none. The information factor mixed with the entertainment values make this series so usable and accessible for all players, whether beginners or veterans. You have taken a subject that is vast in scope, and broken it down into bite-sized, manageable chunks for everyone.

I've enjoyed (and learned) from every one of them, and I can only thank you again on behalf of ANYONE who wanted to know more.

Well done :)

Incinerator22
11-26-2009, 11:57 PM
It seems bad to me that the "learn more about it" section of the notched wheel switch doesn't actually tell you about how it works, just how that the concept can be expanded and the different magnetic keys have different roles. I know how it works, but many others probably wouldn't.

ConfusedCartman
11-27-2009, 12:36 AM
It seems bad to me that the "learn more about it" section of the notched wheel switch doesn't actually tell you about how it works, just how that the concept can be expanded and the different magnetic keys have different roles. I know how it works, but many others probably wouldn't.
We felt that by the Advanced Pack, players would understand that magnetic keys activate magnetic key switches, and from there would be able to come to the conclusion that the rotating magnetic keys are simply activating a magnetic key switch.

Let me put it this way: you're the first person to bring up the potential for an issue, and you still understand how it works. I think people are grasping the idea just fine. ;)

Incinerator22
11-27-2009, 12:51 AM
lol. Still though... Couldn't you put it in slow motion to demonstrate the motor bolt? I don't think it's possile to tell motor bolts and wobble bolts apart in play mode either, that's what I was getting at.

Roflmon
11-27-2009, 11:13 PM
I have a question about the Emitter-based Toggle. How do you get the first magnetic key to disappear when you press the switch a second time? I assumed you had to set the Max emitted at once thing to 1, but when I tried it skipped straight from 5 to 0. Any advice?

ConfusedCartman
11-27-2009, 11:16 PM
I have a question about the Emitter-based Toggle. How do you get the first magnetic key to disappear when you press the switch a second time? I assumed you had to set the Max emitted at once thing to 1, but when I tried it skipped straight from 5 to 0. Any advice?
Use the left/right stick. It will allow you to move sliders and counters more minutely instead of the default snap points provided by the D-Pad.

Kern
11-28-2009, 09:31 AM
can i ask about something to do with the emitter based toggle? Can you add a safety? a block of dissolve?

Because currently when ever i box select my contraption it emits another which is rather annoying.

rtm223
11-28-2009, 01:48 PM
Hmmm, is this in pause mode as well? I'll try and have a little look into the design later on or tomorrow for you.

I'm guessing it's a case of the connected switch becoming "detached" temporarily from the emitter when you select things (this really bugs me actually). If so, it would be pretty much impossible to prevent if it's happening in pause as well (although comphermc might have some input here...)

CCubbage
11-28-2009, 02:59 PM
I noticed this also when I was building the example room, but it's a general thing with emitters, not really with this specific switch. Since the switch uses an emitter, it inherits this issue. It's easy enough to work around, however, and may not be worth making the switch more complex (unless it could be done with a simple change). When the block was emitted, I would just delete it.

Kern
11-28-2009, 03:02 PM
surely a simple solution could be implemented? like a block of dissolve over the emitted bits?

Deviantgeek
11-29-2009, 02:52 AM
The polished, playable chase scene level is not copyable. Can you make it copyable?

ConfusedCartman
11-29-2009, 03:37 AM
The polished, playable chase scene level is not copyable. Can you make it copyable?
We didn't feel there was a need to. The only changes made to the scene are aesthetic (if you follow the tutorial first, anyway), and we have a separate tutorial covering the aesthetic aspect of levels. The polished version is only there as a sort of visual guide, so you can see what we did with the final version of the tutorial. We decided to avoid "prettying up" the template level so we could (hopefully) see what you do with it.

comphermc
11-29-2009, 12:41 PM
surely a simple solution could be implemented? like a block of dissolve over the emitted bits?

Now you're thinking! I like that you're thinking of solutions on your own. I've actually used that method before to prevent it from emitting prematurely. Other than that, the only real solution [outside of a redesign] is to just delete the emitted bit when you move it.

If you're really concerned, temporarily slap down an extra mag key set to one-shot and wire it to the emitter, and then box select or move it as desired. I would think it'd be much easier to just delete the key.

:)


The polished, playable chase scene level is not copyable. Can you make it copyable?

It was originally going to be unlocked, but due to the level of polish on the level, we feared that there would be many people in the community who would copy and publish it as their own. I made the level, so I didn't want to see my work being used by others. However, now that our cool pages run is over, and the pack showed success, and we were sufficiently recognized for the work, I wouldn't mind a whole lot if it was made copyable.

At the end of the day, that's up to ConfusedCartman [LogicPack]. Unfortunately, though, I used a variety of DLC Packs in the polished version, so unless you have all of those, you won't be able to edit it anyways. The DLC I used includes:


Metal Gear Solid
Killzone
Music
History
Monster
And Potentially Others


They weren't absolutely necessary, but they were used for the little details. The only difference between the template and the polished level is the materials, stickers, and the logic. Nothing else was removed.

As CC stated, we have shown exactly how to replicate the level in the Creating a Chase Scene Tutorial, which can be found here (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18349).

Good Luck.

:)

rtm223
11-29-2009, 01:04 PM
Why can't I replicate the emitter emitting when it should thing. Tried moving it around loads (in and out of pause and regardless of what switch was connected to it...) but nothing.

I did come across another issue though - the moving part can get stuck on the emitted key if you move around a lot. It's probably worth taking a tiny strip of material off that to give some clearance. Best bet is shrink a square down to it's smallest size without the grid, then switch grid on and use triangle to cut it away from the edge of the material.

Kern
11-29-2009, 01:41 PM
@rtm its when you box select the entire logic, Key and all, i meant as in its really good toggle but when you box select it it doesnt work entirely as desired.

rtm223
11-29-2009, 02:16 PM
Yeah, that's what I was trying :( I'll go on again later when I've finished on Assassin's creed.

CCubbage
11-29-2009, 04:27 PM
@rtm its when you box select the entire logic, Key and all, i meant as in its really good toggle but when you box select it it doesnt work entirely as desired.
For now, since the level is copyable - I would suggest just adding a piece of dissolve to the slot so it doesn't fire uncontrollably. Attach a sensor switch with a big radius and set it to trigger the dissolve. That way the switch can't malfunction and will begin working when sackboy enters that part of the level.... however, this also has the side effect of the dissolve disappearing in create mode if you are not on pause and have the sackboy walk on the ground.

I've used this switch several times in my own levels at this point (including the room in the advanced and I replaced my old toggle in other levels) and found this switch to work REALLY well and did not find this to be a problem. If I somehow had it malfunction by selecting the whole thing or detaching a grab switch on a piece of material that controlled it, I simply deleted the emitted block and voila..... much better than a permanent switch where something dissolves without you knowing about it.

rtm223
11-29-2009, 07:13 PM
Anyone check out guneye's randomiser? I like how he avoided the 2 outputs at once issue with some clever use of emitters. I can't help but think you can't prove the reliability of that feature though. It's demonstratable and clearly it does work, but as far as I can tell, there is nothing to catch it if it does go wrong.

Anyway, it's certainly worth a look.

deboerdave
12-01-2009, 03:24 PM
Anyone check out guneye's randomiser? I like how he avoided the 2 outputs at once issue with some clever use of emitters. I can't help but think you can't prove the reliability of that feature though. It's demonstratable and clearly it does work, but as far as I can tell, there is nothing to catch it if it does go wrong.

Anyway, it's certainly worth a look.

is he using an emited paint ball and paint swtiches on the wheel?
I sent him a component to play around with like that, but dont know if it that is the same as one you were looking at. If it is, i tried getting one paint ball to set off two paint switchs on different objects but was never succesfull, so if it is the component i sent him i would be pretty certain it cant set off two outputs at once. When a paint ball hits something it has to place a sticker on the object. If two objects are flush against each other and i drop a paint balls at that join it has to choose which surface to sticker and then only that switch would go off. I dont know if i can be proved, unless someone was to look at mm's code, but seems a single paint ball can only active one of the switches much in the same way it can only leave one sticker.

but using a wheel with mag switches it is almost impossible to set keys down such that each output has exactly equal coverage with no overlap and no gaps (if that is what is intended, think a roll of a die).

rtm223
12-01-2009, 03:57 PM
is he using an emited paint ball and paint swtiches on the wheel?
I sent him a component to play around with like that, but dont know if it that is the same as one you were looking at. If it is, i tried getting one paint ball to set off two paint switchs on different objects but was never succesfull, so if it is the component i sent him i would be pretty certain it cant set off two outputs at once. When a paint ball hits something it has to place a sticker on the object.

I remember you posting that a while back. You might be interested to know that it is possible to set off two paintswitches with a single paintball:


After a few rounds of testing and tweaking, something happened; a paintball hit the edge of two adjacent sides, and - SPLAT - both paint switches were activated simultaneously.

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18681




but using a wheel with mag switches it is almost impossible to set keys down such that each output has exactly equal coverage with no overlap and no gaps

What he has done is emit a self-destroying piece of dissolve and (I assume) the keys on the wheel have a very small detection area. so as the output is triggered, the dissolve also dissolves so it can't trigger the next output as well. However, since seeing this, I've found out that one-shot triggered dissolve is not quite instantaneous, so I doubt the method is entirely trustworthy.

Especially when you consider that the method for achieving randomness is to simply spin the wheel stupendously fast - it makes it more likely for the dissolve to still be there when the next key comes along.


As I said, it works as a demonstration, so is probably quite reliable, like the paintball thing. But then how reliable do you need? Depending on your application, 1 error in 10,000 could be too many, or it could be absolutely fine.

deboerdave
12-01-2009, 04:56 PM
I remember you posting that a while back. You might be interested to know that it is possible to set off two paintswitches with a single paintball


could that have to do with how objects are glued/bolted together.
i cant remember off hand but i think i saw a difference on how you assembled things that the paint switch would act on the whole object or just on one component of the object. ... just a thought as it was a while back when i was messing with the paint switch

TheFirstAvenger
12-04-2009, 10:36 PM
I thought I had played the main Advanced Pack level already, but to my surprise I hadn't. I joined my friend yesterday and he was playing this level. We played it from the beginning to the end and was surprised at how amazing everything was put together.

Probably my favorite part of these levels is that they all maintain this sense that they were all made by someone who works for Media Molecule, very professional from the way they were published to the little details within the each level. It didn't feel as though many creators had made it, but just one "God Creator" (if that makes sense). I don't know how all of you did it because all of you have different styles in which you create your levels.

ConfusedCartman
12-04-2009, 11:08 PM
I thought I had played the main Advanced Pack level already, but to my surprise I hadn't. I joined my friend yesterday and he was playing this level. We played it from the beginning to the end and was surprised at how amazing everything was put together.

Probably my favorite part of these levels is that they all maintain this sense that they were all made by someone who works for Media Molecule, very professional from the way they were published to the little details within the each level. It didn't feel as though many creators had made it, but just one "God Creator" (if that makes sense). I don't know how all of you did it because all of you have different styles in which you create your levels.
We were very careful to ensure that we maintained a consistent style and quality across the levels. Usually, that entailed having each person work on a different portion - for example, comphermc and CCubbage would usually lay the foundation, then we'd have mrsupercomputer and compermc improve the visuals, then it would go to me for the Magic Mouths and any/all polish that needed to be done. The polish stage generally took anywhere from 10 - 30 hours depending on what needed to be improved. We also made lots of changes to the level as it was repeatedly played - we'd see a section that didn't feel right or a bug that needed to be fixed or a Magic Mouth that needed to be re-done, and we'd continue to iterate. We literally worked on the levels right up to the day before the pack launched, and we still didn't catch everything. Thanks to the community for reporting the issues you guys ran into, because I think it's in a happy, stable state now.

The logic itself was a different story. I initially approached rtm223 before anyone else because I felt he displayed the most knowledge in that area, and he was just as excited about the project as I was. We spent days working out the logic we wanted to include - passing ideas back and forth, improving each other's designs, etc. When we realized the vast scale this thing was taking on, we decided to bring in others as well. rtm was absolutely essential to the logic we're now offering officially, and I'm glad I asked him on.

Kern
12-04-2009, 11:17 PM
where was rtm in that sentence CC :p

TheFirstAvenger
12-04-2009, 11:22 PM
where was rtm in that sentence CC :p

LOL, that's funny. :p

rtm223
12-04-2009, 11:37 PM
I wondered how quickly someone would pick up on that ;)

I did a lot of logic design early on, coming up with a variety so that we could decide which switches / designs were best for the various aims of the pack. With regards to the levels... I did a hell of a lot less tangible work than everyone else. I was involved a lot with the brainstorming and came up with some of the concepts, a bit of testing here, a bit of tweaking there, etc. But CC's description of how stuff got built is pretty accurate.

Although it's worth mentioning that he did a very good job of overseeing the consistancy - especially in ensuring the themes, tone and the dialogue was very consistant and everything flowed well. He didn't just do the polish - he was very much leading the whole way.

ConfusedCartman
12-05-2009, 04:30 AM
I wondered how quickly someone would pick up on that ;)

I did a lot of logic design early on, coming up with a variety so that we could decide which switches / designs were best for the various aims of the pack. With regards to the levels... I did a hell of a lot less tangible work than everyone else. I was involved a lot with the brainstorming and came up with some of the concepts, a bit of testing here, a bit of tweaking there, etc. But CC's description of how stuff got built is pretty accurate.

Although it's worth mentioning that he did a very good job of overseeing the consistancy - especially in ensuring the themes, tone and the dialogue was very consistant and everything flowed well. He didn't just do the polish - he was very much leading the whole way.

...............................

Where the hell was my head? rtm deserves way more than that - he brought so much logic to the table and he was actually the very first person I went to about this project. I can't believe I didn't mention him, and even though I didn't, don't think it had anything to do with the amount of work he put in. He was absolutely crucial, and there's no way the pack would have been this good without him.

comphermc
12-05-2009, 05:40 AM
I second that. I was thrilled to be brought on board, but from the very first day, rtm taught me that everything I knew about logic was bulky and inefficient. There were some things that I had never even considered (anything involving a winch, for example). Without him, this project would have been unprofessional and downright silly. In fairness, though - he did contribute in the actual construction. He was vital to the testing and feedback process throughout production, and was responsible for one of the Intro's most important scenes: the moving Dark Matter. What I was trying to do would not have even come close to what he came up with, and that's the one thing that everyone was amazed by. He also helped out with puzzle ideas and the tutorial levels. To say he didn't contribute is just silly.

That said, everyone had their roles. CC laid it out pretty well above. CCubbage is unrivaled in his ability to come up with demonstration puzzles (if you can't tell from his collection of levels to date). Mrsupercomputer has artistic talents that the rest of us can't hold a flame to*, and ConfusedCartman did all the tweaking, text, and the legwork involved outside of LBP (the organization, the plan, the tutorials). Myself, I was mostly responsible for setting up the visual style for each level (Many of you have noticed this already), and putting all the pieces together. I was in sort of a freelance role - doing whatever was necessary to keep it going, before handing it off to CC for polish. In order to make our levels have a consistent style, we all had to be on the same page through every step of the process. When someone had an idea, he worked it up, added it to the level, and then it was generally rebuilt to ensure it fit nicely into the level. At any one time, we would have been working on a handful of levels, trading them back and forth via locked, copyable, published levels.

It got to the point where I was having dreams about the Logic Pack, and we really did work out butts off on this thing - especially in the last week or so. Remember, this was all before Online Create. Anything that had to be coordinated between two [or more] people had to be done via a private forum set up for the Logic Pack members. If you were to read through the forum, you'd see how very involving the whole process was**. There was more to be concerned with than just making the levels. We had to consider at all times that what we were making was a direct representative of LBPCentral. This meant that it needed to be professional and worthwhile to the community. We truly hope we accomplished this goal.

Finally, we can't forget our faithful testers. I'm not sure they've been mentioned until now, but Zwollie, Morgana, Gilgamesh, and xkappax were tremendously helpful in the weeks leading up to the release. I was actually quite shocked at the amount of time they were putting into the testing. We can't thank them enough - they allowed us to give the levels that extra echelon of polish.

And thanks to MM for making LBP and sending us shiny new hats... :p

-------

*Don't forget that he made those awesome teaser pictures! ;)

**There were more than 1000 posts made since July. This is amazing when you consider the small number of people who had forum access.

sny
12-05-2009, 06:18 PM
I can't thank you enough for the Intermediate and Advanced Logic Pack compilations! I thought I was familiar with most logic solutions but the "unbreakable" winch-based set-reset switch and the randomizer that uses one third of the therm space that my own contraption requires are very useful indeed! Actually, I feel quite stupid for not figuring out the unbreakable set-reset switch on my own... :blush:

But the single most useful thing for me came in the Advanced Elevator tutorial: I was looking for a way to sense when Sackboy is in a certain layer AND in a certain position, but I completely forgot to look to solutions outside the tools bag... the third lift with the searchlight had me go: :idea: ,and I promptly corrected an age-old bug that was (pardon the pun) bugging me since the first day of creating my newest level. Thanks for that reminder! I wish they'd place the searchlight in the "switches" page of the tools bag as well, it really is a switch after all. :rolleyes:

TheJollyRajah
12-07-2009, 06:00 AM
The funny thing is, when I was playing this, my brother said, "I can tell this was made by MM." He was surprised when I told him otherwise. You guys have done a really great job with this, and I even learned a couple things. It has helped with the next level I'm working on, which btw, isn't a music level.

So I thank everyone who selflessly worked their ***es off for the community's benefit.

Incinerator22
12-10-2009, 04:13 AM
I have a complaint! :p

Why isn't the 4-way toggle switch set to .1 seconds? If you change the "blocker" to glass and set it to .1, and set the motor bolt's speed to 60, it's faster, more convenient, and just as unlikely to break. (I tested it dozens of times in a row.)

ConfusedCartman
12-10-2009, 04:47 AM
I have a complaint! :p

Why isn't the 4-way toggle switch set to .1 seconds? If you change the "blocker" to glass and set it to .1, and set the motor bolt's speed to 60, it's faster, more convenient, and just as unlikely to break. (I tested it dozens of times in a row.)
We tried to keep the number of materials down as low as possible per logic switch, and the speed difference isn't so noticeable that it would cause any problems down the line. If you feel your design works better, then use it instead of ours! That's the whole point of the Logic Pack anyway - to get Creators thinking about logic and how best to utilize it.

Incinerator22
12-10-2009, 07:53 PM
Wow XD! You have great answers for everything.

rtm223
12-10-2009, 08:18 PM
Try tweaking down the strength of the bolt - you should be able to make it switch at 0.1s without the glass then.

Dan930930
12-11-2009, 11:14 AM
I just finished playing all of the logic levels. I have to say, Excellent work. The level design was fantastic. I loved how you allowed the player to test all of the logic to better understand the more complicated ones. I look forward to using the logic in my new creations! Thanks!

Kern
12-12-2009, 10:54 AM
I just realised how compatable these logic sets are, They work seamlessly with each other, and i find myself not creating my own "basic" logic(i "" Basic because its the most used)

Hibbsi
12-19-2009, 09:28 PM
I'm a little late, but I don't think that I will hurt anything by saying, "The Logic Pack is one of the best things to happen to LittleBIGPlanet!" Finally, logic is accessible to those who might not have considered using it before. The way it is presented is pretty cool, too.

By the way, did anybody notice that somebody made a PSNid of "Logicpacks" and published copies of the original logic pack levels? I guess it isn't harmful because these are learning tools, but I think it's a bit funny :p

Kern
12-19-2009, 09:45 PM
it was inevitable that something like that would happen, but remember LBPC has MM on their sidE!

rtm223
12-20-2009, 12:03 AM
More to the point, they can't get their dirty mitts on the best bits of the logic pack - the main levels. Those are the gems.

So much polish it hursts my eyes! Why did comphermc and mrsupercomputer make it so shiny????

Incinerator22
12-26-2009, 01:49 AM
Have you considered updating the logic pack levels with improved Danish Blue magic mouths, with twice the text limit?

iGotFancyPants
12-26-2009, 02:09 AM
Have you considered updating the logic pack levels with improved Danish Blue magic mouths, with twice the text limit?

You seriously have to get off these threads and stop attempting to question the almighty people of the logic packz xD

Incinerator22
12-26-2009, 02:16 AM
I went easy on this pack. lol. Particularly about the lack of an XOR, but if what I've been told by Kernel is true, comph is kindly making an advanced logic tutorial so it's all good.

comphermc
12-26-2009, 02:19 AM
Am I now? I have some other logic pieces, but they may or may not ever make it into an advanced pack.

:)

ConfusedCartman
12-26-2009, 02:34 AM
Have you considered updating the logic pack levels with improved Danish Blue magic mouths, with twice the text limit?
We could, but we already designed the magic mouths specifically around the text limit in place, so re-doing it would probably mean more than just copying the old magic mouth contents into new magic mouths.

Regarding the lack of an XOR, it's such a function-specific switch that by the time you realize you need it, you could probably design it yourself. At the moment, all you'd need to design an XOR is one of our AND switches, but with the magnetic key switch moved in such a position that it only activates if one of the pistons are active instead of all of them.

napero7
01-01-2010, 10:29 PM
Does the thing in the beginning actually do anything?
The "nothing to see here..."

I just thought because all the magnetic keys are the same colour and that could break things if not built carefully.
But I know you guys could manage to do that too :p

ConfusedCartman
01-02-2010, 01:09 AM
Does the thing in the beginning actually do anything?
The "nothing to see here..."

I just thought because all the magnetic keys are the same colour and that could break things if not built carefully.
But I know you guys could manage to do that too :p
That's all of the logic that manages the elevator's behavior. There were lots of things we had to consider when it came to making the elevator function correctly, so it's a fairly complicated setup. As to the fact that all the keys are the same color, we specifically designed our logic so that as long as you give each piece breathing room, you won't run into any issues. Obviously, we don't suggest cramming your logic close together - that could cause a number of problems - but yes, you can put the Logic Pack logic fairly close together without anything going wrong.

Hibbsi
01-02-2010, 01:25 PM
Just a thing I've noticed (and maybe it's been fixed in the last few updates), does shrinking an object with sensors and keys sometimes mess up the radii (sp?) of the sensors? Not just making the object a little smaller, but _very_ small. It's unnecessary to make them that small, but I was just trying to see what would happen.

rtm223
01-03-2010, 01:19 PM
Obviously, we don't suggest cramming your logic close together - that could cause a number of problems - but yes, you can put the Logic Pack logic fairly close together without anything going wrong.

Remember as well that using angle sensors means you can pack a lot more logic into a tight space, especially when all the components move linearly. My logic tends to be very tightly packed in, all using the same coloured keys.


Just a thing I've noticed (and maybe it's been fixed in the last few updates), does shrinking an object with sensors and keys sometimes mess up the radii (sp?) of the sensors? Not just making the object a little smaller, but _very_ small. It's unnecessary to make them that small, but I was just trying to see what would happen.

Well this sounds like you are hitting issues with rounding errors. If you are working with very tight margins then shrinking down is bound to cause problems. In fact there is probably rounding in both the radii and the piston lengths. The best solution, IMO, would be don't do this :p

Hibbsi
01-03-2010, 04:36 PM
Yeah, I figured. I didn't really want to shrink everything down, I was just messing around to see if it would have any effect.

Incinerator22
01-03-2010, 10:01 PM
It's always fun to use the emmiter glitch to get something the size of the logic pack randomiser into the size of a lever :p

It has limits though, sadly :cry:

Wyth
01-05-2010, 06:33 AM
Great pack! I went and got the packs yesterday after not wanting to make a switch function myself (last time I made it it was a bit fiddly). Loving alle the functions, I made most of them before but never in such handy little packets. Great stuff!

One issue though, don't know if it's been said: the wire of the teal mag. sensor from the emitter based toggle is quite hard to reach, might be an idea to update it.

Kern
01-05-2010, 08:10 AM
then use the red one!! :p

if you invert the piston its easier to reach, then just uninvert(is that a word?) it and Voila!

Wyth
01-05-2010, 08:31 AM
Does that work as intended and am I "allowed" to use & CHANGE that one? The tutorial told me not to. I could work dat out myself offcourse but that's not the point of premade stuff right ;)? If you rotate it and reload your level you can reach it to, but it's a point of improvement nontheless.

Kern
01-05-2010, 08:40 AM
You are allowed to tinker with as much of the Logic as you want, that was the purpose of the logic pack, To increase understanding and promote tinkering

Wyth
01-05-2010, 08:58 AM
You are allowed to tinker with as much of the Logic as you want, that was the purpose of the logic pack, To increase understanding and promote tinkering

Ah in that case I misunderstood the purpose I guess. I was operating on 4 hours sleep and after 9 hours of work last night... that might have been the problem.

Tinkering ahoy!

Kern
01-05-2010, 09:01 AM
Ahoy!! :p
........

comphermc
01-05-2010, 12:09 PM
One issue though, don't know if it's been said: the wire of the teal mag. sensor from the emitter based toggle is quite hard to reach, might be an idea to update it.

A tip for that is to pick up to switch and temporarily place it somewhere else. Wire it up and then move it back into position. Or you can just remake the logic yourself! Our goal, really, was to push people in the direction of making their own logic. I'm not sure how successful that was, but at least people appreciate what we did...

:)

CCubbage
01-05-2010, 06:21 PM
A tip for that is to pick up to switch and temporarily place it somewhere else. Wire it up and then move it back into position. Or you can just remake the logic yourself! Our goal, really, was to push people in the direction of making their own logic. I'm not sure how successful that was, but at least people appreciate what we did...

:)
Hmmm.... and I always thought the goal was to get in highest rated, get a ton of plays, and get crowns... :p

Do you think the randomizer could be used to make a popular bomb survival level?

rtm223
01-05-2010, 06:38 PM
Ccubbage, just go and make that darn bomb survival level. We all know you want to: you've been banging on about it for months now. It's OK, you don't have to keep living this lie. You can be the cool pages king with your water bomb survival level...

Live the dream!

Welder666
01-25-2010, 03:57 PM
Good work on the Logic Pack! Especially the tutorials on LBP Central were very helpful!

alex
01-30-2010, 09:48 PM
the logic acks helped me sooo much they're brilliaaannntt!

trip090
02-21-2010, 06:22 PM
thanks guys for releasing this fantastic pack into the community. it helped me and it's bound to help countless others.

keep it up! you're doing great! :p

Pattington_Bear
02-21-2010, 07:56 PM
I'd also like to thank you guys, This pack really helped me along the way, some great advice in the level, well done.

damaz10
03-03-2010, 04:35 PM
Yes these tutorials really opened up the doors for many other creators and i myself and very appreciative of the time and effort that you guys did to make this all possible. Thank you guys very much

puppet88
03-04-2010, 06:50 AM
the levels were really cool and helped me out and gave me ideas

flamingemu
03-14-2010, 09:16 PM
I really liked the advice in the atmosphere bits of this pack, It had some very good ideas! alos, In the advanced pack... is the logic on the first part of the level all the logic in the level? if so, cool!

iGotFancyPants
03-14-2010, 09:36 PM
I think it was just the logic for the first elevator... LOL

comphermc
03-15-2010, 11:03 AM
Yeah, just the elevator. It was a bit overcomplicated, but that's because CC designed it!! :D

WESFUN
03-15-2010, 12:53 PM
if this wasnt created i would never of been able to make my titanic level thank you everyone that worked on this amazing logic

Silverpanther
03-19-2010, 05:14 AM
I know I'm a little late but I want to thank everyone who had a part in making this Logic Pack happen. This must have been a huge undertaking and the effort payed off. I will admit, I have used the logic given out in these levels because they are thermo efficient and compact! This helps a lot when creating more complex levels. Once again, thanks!

Sonic42
05-27-2010, 10:37 PM
I have a question about the randomizer...

If I'm correct (and I may not be), the only random thing about it is when it's activated by the player. If I were to enter a level and wait 20 and activate the randomizer, it would produce the same result as if I restarted, waited another 20 seconds and activated the randomizer. Technically the machine is "random" (as in when it was first created the pattern was not pre-determined), but it not true randomness (as in it's different every time. Am I correct?

comphermc
05-28-2010, 03:11 PM
That is partially correct, but there is nothing stopping you from using a sensor switch set to speed to control one of the pistons. That would be more "random." The window to produce the same results in two independent plays is quite small. Consider also that you had to play through the whole level to reach that point, which exacerbates the "random" nature of the thing.

In reality, the best we can do is pseudo-random, since randomosity, by definition, is impossible in LBP.

Doopz
05-28-2010, 04:02 PM
In reality, the best we can do is pseudo-random, since randomosity, by definition, is impossible in LBP.

Although, I'm pretty sure something mentioned a true randomizer in LBP2, which should be cool.

I have a feeling LBP2 will make the Logic Pack almost pointless... :p

schm0
05-28-2010, 04:14 PM
Although, I'm pretty sure something mentioned a true randomizer in LBP2, which should be cool.

I have a feeling LBP2 will make the Logic Pack almost pointless... :p

All machines can only create psuedo-randomness, which I believe is what comph was referring to (http://www.random.org/). But yes, the randomizing chip in LBP2 should be very useful indeed.

Sonic42
05-28-2010, 09:28 PM
That is partially correct, but there is nothing stopping you from using a sensor switch set to speed to control one of the pistons. That would be more "random." The window to produce the same results in two independent plays is quite small. Consider also that you had to play through the whole level to reach that point, which exacerbates the "random" nature of the thing.

In reality, the best we can do is pseudo-random, since randomosity, by definition, is impossible in LBP.

OK, thanks.

Sunrise_Moon
05-31-2010, 05:28 PM
How do you use the randomizer? There was no explanation in the tutorial.

CYMBOL
05-31-2010, 08:58 PM
Well, a "true" randomizer would be impossible - unless based at the "quantum" mechanical level. :p

Nevermind - I just realized this isn't funny since no one probably know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, just saying, nothing is "truly" random (although they have recently discovered one source to use to create randomization) - but I'm sure MM or someone can think of something to mimic a random event. Shouldn't be too hard. Guess it depends on what you want to randomize.

Incinerator22
06-01-2010, 10:38 PM
I have a feeling LBP2 will make the Logic Pack almost pointless... :p

I would laugh if our logic geeks could make lower-thermo logic than microchips :p

rtm223
06-01-2010, 10:44 PM
I would laugh if our logic geeks could make lower-thermo logic than microchips :p

I can now make a (slightly limited) randomiser for any number of emitters that requires no logic at all. I would imagine that beats the microchips.

expect logic blog service to resume shortly (should be next week actually).

comphermc
06-02-2010, 12:20 AM
I can now make a (slightly limited) randomiser for any number of emitters that requires no logic at all. I would imagine that beats the microchips.

expect logic blog service to resume shortly (should be next week actually).

You gonna share how that works? :p

Also... Hooray!

Tophat_Smile
06-02-2010, 01:00 AM
Logic is kind hard when you first look at it also I asked for people to tutor me in it but they keep telling me the best thing to do is learn on your own and see how it works and at first i thought to my self great no help at all but as I practiced they where right its better to learn on your own through your own mistakes. Thanks LBPC for the great advice and the logic pack really helped as well so you can get a better understanding :)

rtm223
06-02-2010, 10:54 AM
You gonna share how that works? :p


expect logic blog service to resume shortly (should be next week actually).

;)

As a teaser, the following is the kind of random sequence you can expect from this technique:

1, 2, 3, 2, 4, 3, 5, 2, 3, 4, 1, 3, 1, 5, 4, 2, 1, 3, 1, 4, 5, 2, 1, 3, 4, 2, 3, 5, 1, 4, 1, 2, 3, 2, 5, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 5, 1, 2, 4, 2, 1, 3, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 3, 4, 5, 3, 2, 1, 4, 1, 2, 5, 2, 4, 3, 1, 2, 3, 5, 1, 3, 1, 2, 4, 2, 5, 3, 1, 4, 3, 2, 1, 5, 4, 2, 3, 2, 1, 4, 5, 2, 3, 2, 4, 3, 1, 5, 3, 4, 1, 3, 1, 2, 5, 2, 1, 3, 1, 4, 3, 5, 1, 3, 4, 2, 3, 2, 5, 4, 1, 2, 3, 2, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 3, 5, 2, 4, 2, 1, 3, 1, 5, 3, 2, 1, 3, 4, 2, 5, 2, 1, 4, 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 3, 1, 2, 4, 2, 1, 5, 1, 4, 3, 2, 1, 3, 5, 2, 3, 2, 1, 4, 1, 5, 3, 2, 4, 3, 1, 2, 5, 4, 1, 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 1, 3, 1, 4, 3, 2, 5, 3, 4, 2, 3, 2, 1, 5, (then it loops back to the beginning and repeats)

Incinerator22
06-03-2010, 12:27 AM
(then it loops back to the beginning and repeats)

Is it ordered, or really a randomizer...?

rtm223
06-03-2010, 07:20 PM
It's pseudorandom. But tell me this: could you spot the pattern in those numbers?

Ungreth
06-04-2010, 06:54 PM
I built a kind of randomiser that seemed pretty...um...random. It was based around shaking, spinning and shunting a large box full of loose sponge balls with a variety of mag keys and mag switches attached to them. Having speed settings on the winches/pistons that governed the box's motions added to the pseudo-randomosity of it all. Trouble is, it triggered multiple outputs at once, so rather than having a result of ABAACBCAB (ad nausem) for example, it would produce a result such as A, A+C, B+C, B, C, A+B, C, A+B+C, B...

Perhaps someone with less frazzled neurons than me could fine tune such a method to develop a system with workable applications...but I doubt it.

(...now watch Ungreth's expression turn to shock as someone here produces a fully functional large hadron collider from a box full of sponge balls and proves the existence of the Higgs bosun...)

Sonic42
06-04-2010, 09:32 PM
While it may look like a weird output, it's only good if it's different every time. If you play the level and it out puts A, A+C, B+C, B, C, A+B, C, A+B+C, B EVERY time, then it wouldn't be any good.

Ungreth
06-04-2010, 11:07 PM
While it may look like a weird output, it's only good if it's different every time. If you play the level and it out puts A, A+C, B+C, B, C, A+B, C, A+B+C, B EVERY time, then it wouldn't be any good.

The output pattern is different every time.

Incinerator22
06-05-2010, 07:30 AM
It's pseudorandom.

...as is any LBP randomizer, right?

Flamingo_Kai
06-07-2010, 02:36 PM
It says I need to buydownload the Creator Pack 1 to edit/access the advanced logic vault? I only have bought LBP GOTY so I should have had the Metal Gear Solid pack...

EDIT: Heh, me noob, it's free.

nitewalker11
06-09-2010, 03:59 AM
I built a kind of randomiser that seemed pretty...um...random. It was based around shaking, spinning and shunting a large box full of loose sponge balls with a variety of mag keys and mag switches attached to them. Having speed settings on the winches/pistons that governed the box's motions added to the pseudo-randomosity of it all. Trouble is, it triggered multiple outputs at once, so rather than having a result of ABAACBCAB (ad nausem) for example, it would produce a result such as A, A+C, B+C, B, C, A+B, C, A+B+C, B...

Why not combine this with the various elements of piston speed adjustment in the current logic pack randomizer?Change the mag switchs to speed, create a larger trigger radius, then connect the switches to the pistons on logic pack, therefore creating an even more random experience? Still not technically random, but much closer.

warlord_evil
06-09-2010, 05:15 AM
Why don't you just make a randomizer based on the games wonky gravity and not the computerized pistons and gadgets?

Take an emitter(s), and emit blocks downwards against a maze of wooden spokes, after falling through and hitting spokes, each block will land in random slots that will trigger something.

comphermc
06-09-2010, 11:15 AM
Why don't you just make a randomizer based on the games wonky gravity and not the computerized pistons and gadgets?

Take an emitter(s), and emit blocks downwards against a maze of wooden spokes, after falling through and hitting spokes, each block will land in random slots that will trigger something.

Why, because that is a beast on the thermo of course.

rtm223
06-09-2010, 11:19 AM
Not entirely, remember how over engineered the LogicPack one is - it's hardly lightweight.

However, latency, statistical distribution, output timing, mutual exclusion etc. all become issues with such a system. Plus it looks exceptionally ugly ;)

AfterBurner9901
06-16-2010, 06:41 PM
can someone explain what a randomizer is and does?

Kern
06-16-2010, 07:32 PM
can someone explain what a randomizer is and does?

It produces a pseudorandom(fake random) output so is useful for things such as boss battles with random attacks.

If you'd like more help search @logicpack for tutorials

Kern
06-24-2010, 08:08 AM
Can someone please explain what an RS Latch is?

rtm223
06-24-2010, 08:12 AM
As set reset switch. Or Reset set switch, same thing really....

LWBear2
07-28-2010, 09:47 PM
the atmosphere turtorial is a huge help i needed big help lol i'd like to c the enemies u came up 4 the swamp X)

PatriotEyez27
08-23-2010, 07:10 AM
I need help on the paint based counter logic.I created a currency system where it emits how much points you have(I made a hud with the sackboy tracker)

I wantwhen you kill a creature,it triggers the emitter on the $ system but don't know the "efficient" way how.Could magnetic keys work?

lemurboy12
09-05-2010, 02:59 PM
I need an automatic randomizer. I tried modifying the randomizer, but nothing worked.

VIPER_4_LIFE
10-06-2010, 12:39 PM
awesome, i was absolutly garbage at logic before i read this, thanks, good job, yadda yadda, im truly greatful :moody:

Blackfalcon
10-17-2010, 07:27 PM
Hi, I got the Randomizer from the Logic Vault and have used it in two levels. However, today as I used it in the second of said levels I noticed that the second blue magnetic key from the left (i.e. the second input out of six) is never activated. Now that I think of it I remember that in the first level I used it in there were supposed to be six outputs but for some reason one was never activated. It may very well have been the same second magnetic key. Is there a problem with the Randomizer?

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/272671-Blackfalcon/671/5/animal0064hb2_display.gif

Calum510
11-20-2010, 02:27 PM
Thanks for this epic pack LBPC!

I use it ALL the time. Which is why most of my creations say originally by someone else! lol!

Kern
11-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Thanks for this epic pack LBPC!

I use it ALL the time. Which is why most of my creations say originally by someone else! lol!

Sorry but the Logic Pack wouldn't affect that. Each vault was copyable so you could avoid that problem.

rtm223
11-23-2010, 04:05 PM
Objects created by one person and then captured by another do list the original creator on the objects. I've had a number of PSN messages over the last year from people asking why their creations have my name on them.


Also, we missed the anniversary of the Logic Pack. Sad times :(

CCubbage
11-28-2010, 11:44 AM
Wow.... that's a bummer. We could have had a cake or something....

Maybe we should re-release it in LBP2 but add the cobweb decorations all over the place. XD

Kern
11-28-2010, 12:08 PM
a belated happy birthday to the Logic Pack!

Happy Birthda... No?

Aya042
12-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Objects created by one person and then captured by another do list the original creator on the objects.

Only if the original creator captured and replaced them at some point. If you never place an item from your captured objects section, things you create will have no associated creator names.

Edit: Oh, unless you created it prior to Cornish Yarg, IIRC.

Kitkasumass
12-01-2010, 05:38 PM
since you guys are talking about capturing things I have a quick question. How do you make a piece of material smearable after capturing? All of the materials from Aya's level are smearable after capturing but even if I make something into a square it is not like this when i capture it. Sorry if this is the wrong place for this question.

Aya042
12-01-2010, 06:34 PM
How do you make a piece of material smearable after capturing?

IIRC you have to split it into two pieces by either cutting or using corner editor. One piece will become smearable. If you recapture that it will remain so.

Kitkasumass
12-02-2010, 01:21 AM
Ok thanks a lot. I never would have thought of that.

FLAWLESS303
12-23-2010, 10:11 PM
Ive made something very logicy recently, it turns a wobble bolt right and left with two grabs and when you let go it turns back to its original position (or the position you set it to). Good for a top down car with turning front wheels. It works really well. It took me a solid hour to figure it out, then 5 minutes to put it together. I made it completely from scratch. If you wanna check it out just add me (PSN FLAWLESS303) and tell me in message and I'll bring you right to it. Thats all i got, Thank you for your time.