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rtm223
01-29-2010, 06:48 PM
This object showcase serves two purposes. One, to show off the new set-reset toggle switch that I just came up with; two, to rub it in rtm's comphermc's face. :hero:

Yeah, here it is:


Inactive:
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/APhoto_11-3.jpg

Active:
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/APhoto_10-2.jpg

Settings are:

Winch:
Min: 0
Max: 2.5
Time: 0.1s
Flipper In

Piston:
Min: 0
Max: 10
Strength: 0

Note that the piston is connected to the other side of the material part.

How it works
Copied from below:
The behaviour is actually quite predictable. I didn't stumble upon this, I actually knew it would work before I tried it.

At the mid point inbetween those two pictures, the winch is at length 0, when the brown connector bits overlap. In both of the pictures, the winch is actually extended to full length of 2.5, it's just that in the second one it's going backwards - which is perfectly normal behaviour for a winch. When you hit the 1-shot, it pulls into the centre and then extends again. The piece of poly is moving fast enough that it slingshots past the centre point and ends up the other side, guided smoothly by the stiff piston.

It's all quite predictable and consistant with how the connectors generally behave, it's just not intuitive.


Notes
As this is a 0-strength piston jobby, it has to be horizontal and static as shown. However, unlike the parellel pistons toggle and the emitter toggle, it does not require that it has a directional output to feedback, potentially reducing your number of magnetic switches by 1. Alternatively, if you do have a directional output, or you choose to add one, you can loop that into the piston and tweak it to the following settings:

Piston:
Min: 0
Max: 10
Strength: 5
Time: 0.5s
Backwards.

This will allow you to mount it vertically or on a moving object :)

As a side note, you can probably mount it resting on dark matter without the piston, if that's the way you like to do things, but I don't really care and it most likely won't be as stable, due to the extreme force of flippers.

Shadowheaven
01-29-2010, 07:56 PM
It's faster than the double piston toggle, but... I don't like it, dunno why, probably because it's not an expected behavior, or because it doesn't seem 100% affordable (I haven't tested it, it's just a feeling). BUT it could be used as a way to make a resettable permanent switch.... Ok, time for testing.

Incinerator22
01-29-2010, 09:01 PM
Toggle as in a different method than the emmiter based toggle? Because I hate emmiters so ALLELUIA!

rtm223
01-29-2010, 09:15 PM
@Shadowheaven, not sure what you're saying. It'll take a 0.1s input for a couple of minutes, if reliability is your issue. Other than that I don't know hwat to say really. It works, for prefectly sensible (although weird) reasons. The winch ends up going negative and pulls the object back to centre.

@incinerator: Indeed, lower thermo than the emitter toggle, and can be mounded on a moving object too! Still takes 1 shot input though.

Shadowheaven
01-29-2010, 09:24 PM
I usually tend to avoid things with weird behaviours, and I shouldn't have questioned the affordability without even testing it; Anyway, you did a great job finding an use for this; I tested it and I can say for sure that my feeling was wrong. It's just... too weird for me.

rtm223
01-29-2010, 09:52 PM
THe behaviour is actually quite predictable. I didn't stumble upon this, I actually knew it would work before I tried it.

At the mid point inbetween those two pictures, the winch is at length 0, when the brown connector bits overlap. In both of the pictures, the winch is actually extended to full length of 2.5, it's just that in the second one it's going backwards - which is perfectly normal behaviour for a winch. When you hit the 1-shot, it pulls into the centre and then extends again. The piece of poly is moving fast enough that it slingshots past the centre point and ends up the other side, guided smoothly by the stiff piston.

It's all quite predictable and consistant with how the connectors generally behave, it's just not intuitive.

Shadowheaven
01-29-2010, 10:03 PM
Right, because in both pictures the wich will pull toward the 0 point, and since the connectors are overlapped, it goes
- from 2,5 to 0, or
- from, say, -1 to 0, then it doesn't get any friction and goes on to full lenght

I got too used to attach the connectors on the same side, forgetting that the brown parts don't count for the lenght of the connectors.
Thank you very much, I mistakenly assumed it was some kind of glitch abusing; it's much less scary and weird for me, now.

comphermc
01-29-2010, 10:17 PM
Yes, yes. You win, rtm. Nice job with the perm as well. Can we expect pics of that soon?

rtm223
01-29-2010, 10:18 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean about the "unexplained behaviour". I felt the same way aobut the 2-pistons in parallel toggle for a while, because I didn't fully understand why it was working and a couple of times I saw it fail (due to tweaking errors, based upon me not undersanding how it worked, not the design itself). Now I do understand it I'm fine with it. Although this is now my preferred toggle ^_^


@comphy: As I just said on PSN, it's not about winning, it just means it's your turn again now :p You did notice that the first sentenec was just copied and pasted from your thread, so you can't act like I'm being mean here :p I'll do the hystaperm soonish.

comphermc
01-29-2010, 10:35 PM
I'm just kidding around, bud. I know it's my turn, but I have no idea where to go from here... Haha.

Luos_83
01-29-2010, 10:39 PM
btw RTM, why not change the cartboard into a floaty, remove the piston and keep the chain.
You will lose one moving object because of it (the piston), and it still works the same.
TheAdipose made it btw.

The only downside is, if you want to reset it, you have to set grid to mid.
But still.

Shadowheaven
01-29-2010, 10:43 PM
btw RTM, why not change the cartboard into a floaty, remove the piston and keep the chain.
You will lose one moving object because of it (the piston), and it still works the same.
TheAdipose made it btw.


Because you don't use often floaty in levels, so it's better not to pick it for the logic pieces - the material thermo, you know - the best thing to do would be change all the moveable pieces of the logic of a level in a material that is already used for something else.

Also, if you want to use floaty without stiff connectors, you can only interact with the center of the object, or it will rotate, most of the time making the logic device useless.

comphermc
01-29-2010, 10:44 PM
It works with a set-reset too? Nice! I had seen the "low therm perm" in the video, and I was pretty impressed.

@rtm - all this talk about Perms has completely made us forget that the dissolve perm is still the best, lol. Yes, you can trip it in create mode, but if you are more concerned about thermo, then it's still the best!

@SH - Yeah, but most of the time your materials thermo isn't maxed. Sure, there are exceptions, but it shouldn't be a huge factor.

rtm223
01-29-2010, 10:48 PM
@Luos: Because it doesn't work. On a theoretical level there is no way to demonstrate it's stable and a quick test showed that three input triggers destabalises it. Also, moving objects is defined by the actual objects themselves, the connectors contribute to different thermos. Are you thinking of a perm? Because that might work in that manner, but I'd still not trust it 100%.


@comph. No, I know. I think that hystaperm is pretty darn close if you have a shared mag key though. And it's more user friendly.

Luos_83
01-29-2010, 11:18 PM
we have used it in magpie instead of your perma and the dissolve one.
I have also used them a lot in my latest level (sack 4)
I bet my life on it that it works.
(you just have to place it with mid-grid on, thats all)

In meddling magpie, behind the first character (moop) is a collectable version of it.

rtm223
01-29-2010, 11:27 PM
It's not the same function though. So, as a toggle (see thread title), it doesn't work and comparisons of which is more efficient are pretty pointless :rolleyes:

To clarify, a toggle will invert it's output each time the input is activated.


With regards to your permanent switch, I had a similar discussion with Aya over at the workshop. I know it's doable, but I'd rather not leave things floating / sliding around freely. The hysteresis-based perm is far more predictable and theoretically stable than floaty on a winch, whilst having exactly the same component counts. You can also make a partially-gravity based device with a weak piston that would be the same and again be more stable, in theory.

comphermc
01-30-2010, 05:14 AM
Yep, I tried it with floatie material as well, but it doesn't like being held at negative length. The winch will actually push the floatie in this case (well, pull it back to zero). The perm seems to work well, but the set-reset is a no-go.

robotiod
01-30-2010, 07:58 AM
hmm this is low thermo but i believe it can be done better and comph knows that. if you believe then you can achieve.

Kern
01-30-2010, 10:45 AM
Can I ask how this works?

rtm223
01-30-2010, 10:51 AM
Like this:


THe behaviour is actually quite predictable. I didn't stumble upon this, I actually knew it would work before I tried it.

At the mid point inbetween those two pictures, the winch is at length 0, when the brown connector bits overlap. In both of the pictures, the winch is actually extended to full length of 2.5, it's just that in the second one it's going backwards - which is perfectly normal behaviour for a winch. When you hit the 1-shot, it pulls into the centre and then extends again. The piece of poly is moving fast enough that it slingshots past the centre point and ends up the other side, guided smoothly by the stiff piston.

It's all quite predictable and consistant with how the connectors generally behave, it's just not intuitive.

I've now copied that into the OP too ;)

SteveBigGuns
01-30-2010, 12:03 PM
Great work. I usually use the emiter based version, but ill switch to this lower thermo approach. I love the technique you used to get it to function. Thanks a lot for sharing your findings with us.

iGotFancyPants
01-30-2010, 12:38 PM
:grr:

Every time I think I found a way to make a low-thermo version of these switches, you and comph come out with a better one. Curses!

I'll try this out and compare it to mine although I'm almost 100% sure it will be more thermo efficient. Curses again!

Looks like I'll have to up my game :kz:

:D

Incinerator22
01-30-2010, 04:16 PM
Sorry comph. This is cooler. rtm wins again :p

Kern
01-30-2010, 04:19 PM
How does it toggle back? That's the bit that confuses me.

Shadowheaven
01-30-2010, 05:39 PM
How does it toggle back? That's the bit that confuses me.
In the the upper status in the image below, the brown connectors of the winch are overlapped, pratically inverting the winch; since the piston has strenght 0, you need only a little bit of strenght to move the polystirene away from the DM.
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9049/aphoto102.jpg
Note: the T side represents the flipping connector

Ayneh
01-30-2010, 11:41 PM
Nice job! Might try making one of these.

SteveBigGuns
01-31-2010, 01:34 AM
I managed to reduce the thermo further by getting the toggle switch to function without the piston. Its limited to a 0.4s input. If it exceeds this speed for a sustained period of time it will break. Its still useful for signals with a delay period exceeding 0.4s. I sent comphermc the object (I adjusted the winch length to 4.5 instead of 5 for betted stability since). It functions by glass moving around dark matter, repositioning itself from side to side.

comphermc
01-31-2010, 03:10 AM
I managed to reduce the thermo further by getting the toggle switch to function without the piston. Its limited to a 0.4s input. If it exceeds this speed for a sustained period of time it will break. Its still useful for signals with a delay period exceeding 0.4s. I sent comphermc the object (I adjusted the winch length to 4.5 instead of 5 for betted stability since). It functions by glass moving around dark matter, repositioning itself from side to side.

Lol.... it's basically the same thing that rtm suggested above. It works, but I don't trust it. I think I can make room for one more piston... :rolleyes:


As a side note, you can probably mount it resting on dark matter without the piston, if that's the way you like to do things, but I don't really care and it most likely won't be as stable, due to the extreme force of flippers.

claptonfann
01-31-2010, 05:29 AM
What's left on the list? :p We've already got the lowest thermo versions of a Set-Reset, AND, OR, and Toggle.

I suppose a XOR is in order now. The current lowest version that rtm uses involves the switch and the key both moving on pistons going in opposite directions. Since that design is identical to a Toggle design that both rtm and comph use (minus the output switch), I would imagine this redesign might be similar to the Lowest Thermo Possible XOR gate. But that's speculation. I'm eager for what you logic-heads come up with, though. XOR gates are my favorite ^w^

Kern
01-31-2010, 08:21 AM
XOR bits are simples blob o' DM blob of cardboard, sliver of cardboard and some precise engineering

SteveBigGuns
01-31-2010, 09:38 AM
Lol.... it's basically the same thing that rtm suggested above. It works, but I don't trust it. I think I can make room for one more piston... :rolleyes:

Lol. I didnt read that :P. I wouldnt use it as its not worth the risk of it breaking to save on the thermo cost of a single piston.

RCIX
01-31-2010, 09:46 AM
Just speaking theoretically here, i can do one with 1 piece of DM, 2 pistons, and 2 cardboard pieces.

rtm223
01-31-2010, 12:31 PM
@steve, I actually had a go at doing that and couldn't get it working tbh, so you've done better than me :p

@RCIX: me and comph came up with a design like that a while back and that's the design I've optimised upon!

comphermc
01-31-2010, 05:38 PM
I'm baaaack.

So, I know that you were trying to reduce the moving objects thermo, rtm, so I made an XOR that has only one moving part:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/7174/aphoto60.jpg

Both inputs = False.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5871/aphoto61.jpg

One input = True.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4426/aphoto62.jpg

Both inputs = True.

I chose to use a spring to save from forcing a piston to always be pushing inward (no more grabby switch necessary). Thanks Shadowheaven for that idea in the visitor message he sent me this morning. I don't remember the exact settings, but I believe all the winches had a strength of 5, and the spring had a strength of 10. The trick here was that the winch on the right side has a minimum length that starts as shown in the middle picture. All winches are .1 and are set to a length of 15 units (but as just stated the right one is shifted so that the minimum length starts at the middle position). I was able to use a feedback loop on the winch, but had to use a spring to get it to work.

Anyways, the idea is all about summation of forces. It takes only one active input to pull the block to the middle, but since it has to start fighting the right winch at this point (and the right winch is being helped by the spring), it stops in the middle. When there are two inputs active, the two winches on the left are able to overpower the right winch and the spring. The key and switch are aligned carefully so that only when the block is in the middle will it activate.

I'm sure there's a way to do it without the spring, but I couldn't do it.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1929/aphoto63.jpg

Here's my version of the DM/winch toggle that SBG sent me. This one seems to be more reliable. I turned the strength down to 7 to prevent from breaking the glass, but I'm not sure this was necessary. Also, Kernel wouldn't move in the picture, lol.

Cheers.

:)

iGotFancyPants
01-31-2010, 05:51 PM
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1929/aphoto63.jpg

Here's my version of the DM/winch toggle that SBG sent me. This one seems to be more reliable. I turned the strength down to 7 to prevent from breaking the glass, but I'm not sure this was necessary. Also, Kernel wouldn't move in the picture, lol.

Cheers.

:)

Nice

I think I made something similar to this once but it wasn't working properly when I tried it out. Maybe I'll try again lol

Kern
01-31-2010, 11:21 PM
I did look awesome though, I liked the XOR you did too

Shadowheaven
02-01-2010, 12:02 PM
@comph: I managed to do a better version of your XOR, with only 3 connectors, one moving part and one DM part, and the switch can be set to whatever you want, not necessarily directional. I'll show you when you connect to LBP.

comphermc
02-01-2010, 12:25 PM
@comph: I managed to do a better version of your XOR, with only 3 connectors, one moving part and one DM part, and the switch can be set to whatever you want, not necessarily directional. I'll show you when you connect to LBP.

What about the Speed setting...? Lol. Nice work, though.

Shadowheaven
02-02-2010, 09:21 PM
There you go, I just finished testing it:
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9937/unafoto.jpg

It requires two directional inputs, and both the pistons have the following settings:
- lenght (min/max): 5 / 15
- strenght: 6
- time: 0,1 s
- stiff, inverted

Spring settings:
- Lenght: 10
- strenght: 7 or higher (basically, the higher the strenght, the less it swings, but it doesn't matter much)
- stiff

It swings a bit when activated, but the switch radius manages to cover for it. You can check it in my logic backup level.

comphermc
02-02-2010, 11:08 PM
I checked it out... pretty cool. I don't like the bounciness, but it works... :p

Shadowheaven
02-02-2010, 11:15 PM
I do admit that it's one of the weirdest logic pieces, but at least I can say I made something unique; watching it bounce is quite ridicuolus, and I admit that I use a strenght of 7 on the spring only because it looks funnier :D

iGotFancyPants
02-02-2010, 11:17 PM
I do admit that it's one of the weirdest logic pieces, but at least I can say I made something unique; watching it bounce is quite ridicuolus, and I admit that I use a strenght of 7 on the spring only because it looks funnier :D

Yes, it is quite amusing isn't it? :)

Fishrock123
02-03-2010, 04:00 AM
Nice! That seems to be almost the least thermo possible, unless somehow it can be made with one piston/winch/anything else.


At the moment I primarily use Compermc's one toggle that utilizes the fact that a one shot goes faster than .1 seconds. (I'm not sure what its called?)


This, and SBG's glass one, seems to me... a bit less....... potentially stable? If you're toggle can freely move, (piston at 0 strength or no piston) then I would be worried about something ptentially messing up and it, pretty much sliding/falling into a different position, unless it's using pink floaty.


Perhaps I am unfamiliar with the subject, as this is not what I would generally be looking at inventing.

Shadowheaven
02-03-2010, 01:11 PM
This, and SBG's glass one, seems to me... a bit less....... potentially stable? If you're toggle can freely move, (piston at 0 strength or no piston) then I would be worried about something ptentially messing up and it, pretty much sliding/falling into a different position, unless it's using pink floaty.You mean it could fail if you move it around or throw something at it? Logic devices are not meant to be collision-proof; other than that, using the grid will grant that it won't slide to the left/right, since the 0 strenght piston takes care of the only external force, the gravity - about its stability, take a look at the replies, both I and Rtm explained its mechanism more than once. For the glass one, I haven't tested it yet, I couldn't tweak it correctly.


At the moment I primarily use Compermc's one toggle that utilizes the fact that a one shot goes faster than .1 seconds. (I'm not sure what its called?)Wrong - Rtm's is more efficient than the flipper based, not only for the number of components, but also for the time needed for the change of state; let's analyze the actions that occur in both of them:

Comphermc's flipper based toggle:
- one-shot input -> flipping piston (time: < 0,1 sec - let's call this X)
- change of state for the key -> change of the direction of the other piston (time: 0,05 sec + 0,05 sec)
- change of state for the output (time: 0,05 sec)
Rtm223's toggle:
- one-shot input -> flipping winch (Time: X)
- change of state for the output (time: 0,05 sec)

Total time: X + 0,15 seconds against X + 0,05 seconds - I don't need to add more, I think :)

Fishrock123
02-03-2010, 04:23 PM
You mean it could fail if you move it around or throw something at it? Logic devices are not meant to be collision-proof; other than that, using the grid will grant that it won't slide to the left/right, since the 0 strenght piston takes care of the only external force, the gravity - about its stability, take a look at the replies, both I and Rtm explained its mechanism more than once. For the glass one, I haven't tested it yet, I couldn't tweak it correctly.

Wrong - Rtm's is more efficient than the flipper based, not only for the number of components, but also for the time needed for the change of state; let's analyze the actions that occur in both of them:

Comphermc's flipper based toggle:
- one-shot input -> flipping piston (time: < 0,1 sec - let's call this X)
- change of state for the key -> change of the direction of the other piston (time: 0,05 sec + 0,05 sec)
- change of state for the output (time: 0,05 sec)
Rtm223's toggle:
- one-shot input -> flipping winch (Time: X)
- change of state for the output (time: 0,05 sec)

Total time: X + 0,15 seconds against X + 0,05 seconds - I don't need to add more, I think :)


True..... I suppose I'll try to build one of these, unless I rtm lets me capture his. (I'm not good at making small scale logic! >_<)


Also the flipper's time appears to be instant. Unless you have proof that it isn't.. :P

Shadowheaven
02-03-2010, 04:30 PM
Also the flipper's time appears to be instant. Unless you have proof that it isn't.. :P
That's why I used an unknown quantity (X) - It could also be 0,01 for all we know, since there isn't an instrument to misurate it accurately - It surely is less than 0,05 anyway, which is the time needed for mag switches to detect a key, so if assuming it's instant is not the thrut, it's quite near to it.

Fishrock123
02-03-2010, 06:20 PM
That's why I used an unknown quantity (X) - It could also be 0,01 for all we know, since there isn't an instrument to misurate it accurately - It surely is less than 0,05 anyway, which is the time needed for mag switches to detect a key, so if assuming it's instant is not the thrut, it's quite near to it.


Well I'm not quite sure of this (tell me if I'm wrong) and I will test it later, but...


If you have an increadbly long flipper piston, dosen't the side of it movement when it "flips" instantly "teleport" to the extended/contracted psition? (I mean, doesn't it go through objects on the flipper motion side?)

Again, I might be wrong, but this was the basis of my thinking from what I've seen.

Shadowheaven
02-03-2010, 06:44 PM
Well I'm not quite sure of this (tell me if I'm wrong) and I will test it later, but...
If you have an increadbly long flipper piston, dosen't the side of it movement when it "flips" instantly "teleport" to the extended/contracted psition? (I mean, doesn't it go through objects on the flipper motion side?)
Again, I might be wrong, but this was the basis of my thinking from what I've seen.

It's true that a flipping piston allows an object to pass through another in the moment it flips, but it's not the mechanism used in this device.

Basically, when the device is in active status, the brown connectors are overlapped; since each connector has a lenght of 1.25, it's like having the winch at an actual lenght of 2.5, from 1.25 inside the DM and 1.25 inside the moving part, and not 0 as you could think; so, when the winch receives another one-shot input, it shoots the moving part from -2.5 to 0, and thanks to the piston that negates most of friction, it goes to full lenght. As I said, you can watch it in the level I use as a backup for logic devices.
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/APhoto_10-2.jpg
^^^ in this image the winch lenght is -2.5, not 0

Kern
02-03-2010, 07:26 PM
There you go, I just finished testing it:


It requires two directional inputs, and both the pistons have the following settings:
- lenght (min/max): 5 / 15
- strenght: 6
- time: 0,1 s
- stiff, inverted

Spring settings:
- Lenght: 10
- strenght: 7 or higher (basically, the higher the strenght, the less it swings, but it doesn't matter much)
- stiff

It swings a bit when activated, but the switch radius manages to cover for it. You

how do you deal with the (can't remember what is called) that the Mag Switch holds onto the mag key?

Shadowheaven
02-03-2010, 07:35 PM
Erm, you mean the switch's area? In my setup, It's 80 degrees, and the radius is shown in the picture. If I got your question wrong, ask away.

If this is too much off topic, be sure to tell me, and I'll open a thread.

Kern
02-03-2010, 07:38 PM
I think it was hysteresis but i'll let RTM correct me if im wrong...

Fishrock123
02-03-2010, 07:55 PM
It's true that a flipping piston allows an object to pass through another in the moment it flips, but it's not the mechanism used in this device.

Basically, when the device is in active status, the brown connectors are overlapped; since each connector has a lenght of 1.25, it's like having the winch at an actual lenght of 2.5, from 1.25 inside the DM and 1.25 inside the moving part, and not 0 as you could think; so, when the winch receives another one-shot input, it shoots the moving part from -2.5 to 0, and thanks to the piston that negates most of friction, it goes to full lenght. As I said, you can watch it in the level I use as a backup for logic devices.
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/APhoto_10-2.jpg
^^^ in this image the winch lenght is -2.5, not 0


I get how it works. ;)



I was debating the flipping piston's speed. :O


If it goes through objects it is therefore not affected by physics leading me to believe it instantainiously(sp?!) "teleports" to to the in/out location upon flipping. If it's speed were above instantanious then it should break, as it would still come in contact with the piston.

Of course, it does take some amount of time due to the following:

Your TV's refresh rate. Is not instantanious, even if it seems like it.
The very fact that your PS3 has to calculate were it goes and then display it.


Therefore: 0.05 > X > 0



Ah I'm just having fun. :P

Shadowheaven
02-03-2010, 08:29 PM
I think it was hysteresis but i'll let RTM correct me if im wrong...
Yep it's hysteresis, I couldn't make this device without knowing that it's in LBP too: specifically, while it bounces, the hysteresis grants a stable output - if it wasn't for hysteresys, this device wouldn't work at all.

@Fishrock123: I just tested it, flipping an object through a long one works - it breaks while trying to go back - so basically pistons are instant, or equal to the game's refresh rate

RCIX
02-04-2010, 05:04 AM
I can make one with 2 pistons (maybe a piston and a winch -- i'll have to experiment), 1 DM blob, and 1 cardboard blob -- the catch is that i need an extra mag key. Is that the most efficient?

rtm223
02-04-2010, 09:46 AM
OK, the flipper movement does seem to be instantaneaous, at least as far as we can see it. However, the update ont he magnetic switch is not. If you trigger a 1-shot signal into a flipper piston that then activates another one-shot, there is a delay of 0.05s, which appears to be the magnetic switch sampling rate (for directional and one-shot signals, I'm still unsure on on/off and speed, they may have higher sampling rates).

As for the parrallel pistons toggle, the update time will be 0.05s, based upon the updated of the flipper motion. You don't have to take into account the directional piston motion as the output is already updated before that piston moves.

With the design in the OP, remember that it pulls in using flipper motion, then requires that the object be slingshotted past the centerpoint and over to the other side. I don't know how long that takes, it probably occurs within the 0.05s, but I don't know. If anything it might be slower than other forms of toggle, so your time analysis was a little backwards shadowheaven ;)

-edit: To get instantaneous propagation of signals you will need to use emitters, I'm almost 100% sure that it's the only way.


As for comphermc's replcement design, it failed for me on the 2nd and 3rd times I hit it with inputs, then never again. I did see a bit of bounce on the output a couple of times too. TBH, I'd consider modifying it to use a triangle and a 180 degree magnetic switch, but I haven't tried that.

The XORs: There are some nice concepts there, but you've not reduced thermo in any realistic manner (by that I mean you've increased some thermo to reduce other thermo and I'm not buying this "1 connector costs less than an moving object argument" :p)

@RCIX, what device are you talking about? A toggle?

Shadowheaven
02-04-2010, 02:10 PM
For the response time, I agree with you that the emitter based one shown in the logic pack is still unbeaten.

The piston based device actually requires 0,1 seconds to change state - I compared it to a chain of two flipping pistons, so that I had a perfect delay of 0.1 sec to compare with, and the time response was exactly the same - the winch based device had a response time of 0.05 secs when flipping in, and 0.1 secs when flipping out.


You don't have to take into account the directional piston motion as the output is already updated before that piston moves.
I'ts still 0.05/0.1 against a fixed 0.1 - it's faster half of the time :)

All of the above was tested with the following assumptions:
- a flipping piston/winch takes 0 seconds to flip when it receives an input
- the mag switches sample rate is 0.05 sec

I noticed also that a flipping piston and one set to directional with a time of 0,1 give the same exact response time.

For my XOR, I told you it requires a lot of tweaking ;): I tested it with two inputs, one with frequency 0.1 and the other with a variable frequency between 0.1 and 0.5, and it works perfectly - it has some problems when one input is 1 and the other is flipping at 0.1 secs, but it's spring based, so of course it isn't stable - I mostly made it for fun :p - I may have been lucky getting the exact range, so I added it as a prize in my logic level, should you have too much trouble tweaking it.

RCIX
02-04-2010, 09:35 PM
@RTM: An XOR. I'm hoping that a force of two conflicting pistons (or a piston and a winch) at the same strength will cancel out and make the object under their influence return to normal.Thus, all i have to do is mount 2 keys to the DM blob and i get an XOR! maybe i better publish a level showing my idea later. It's quite possible it won't work...

rtm223
02-04-2010, 09:41 PM
The two pistons will cancel each other out and create a zero force and stay stationary. See comphermc's set-reset thread and the logic pack sackperson tracker for applications of this.

@shadow, I'm not following you 100%, I'll have to wait for my controller to charge and then have another look. I was sure the magnetic switch activation happens before the directional piston finishes moving though. Edit, no it definitely does, it's the output that drives the directional piston, so there is no way the output takes 0.1s to activate..... Give me an hour here.

Shadowheaven
02-05-2010, 12:06 AM
I'm happy knowing that I'm not the only one that speaks to himself to solve problems ;)
If I wasn't clear on something, please tell me - I will probably be out all day tomorrow (erm, today... the 5th, okay?), so I won't be able to reply before saturday.

rtm223
02-05-2010, 12:31 AM
You and me both, I also didn't get back on my PS3 properly because I didn't actually plug the other end of the lead into anything. Apparently the cable on it's own is not enough to charge the controller :rolleyes:

RCIX
02-05-2010, 01:25 AM
The two pistons will cancel each other out and create a zero force and stay stationary. See comphermc's set-reset thread and the logic pack sackperson tracker for applications of this.


Yeah, i figured that out after some experimenting. Bah. I almost had something going with a piston and a winch, but not quite... :mad:

M_R_Enigma
02-08-2010, 03:26 AM
I see, you're the person who came up with this switch. Good job. Now to find a use for it....

Kern
02-08-2010, 06:46 AM
What? A toggle? One of the most useful switches

rtm223
02-08-2010, 12:15 PM
Do I need to find a use for them myself when people have been using them for decades?

I actually don't use the toggle that much myself, but as Kernel says, they can be really, really useful.

M_R_Enigma
02-08-2010, 08:25 PM
I meant that as a joke, but apparently someone doesn't have a sense of humor. Of course there's a need for a toggle switch. I use mine as a paper weight! JK When you've been thinking about inputs, sequence, and binary code all day a hearty laugh is good now and then.

rtm223
02-08-2010, 08:34 PM
Sarcasm doesn't work to well in text ;) Especially when it's that dry lol.

Incinerator22
02-09-2010, 01:23 AM
Is there a way to make it with the piston on the inside of the dark matter and polyesterene, and not with one end on the outside? It just looks so... hideous... :cry:

rtm223
02-09-2010, 01:26 AM
put it on the side? That would look neater.

M_R_Enigma
02-09-2010, 01:55 AM
So I see, you do have a sense of humor. I was just testing you.

iGotFancyPants
02-09-2010, 01:57 AM
Maybe I was the one testing all of you. But how? Well that is just another test.

And, rtm, any word on that perm switch? ;)

Kern
02-09-2010, 06:53 AM
Perm Switch? You mean a switch that changes your hairstyle? :cry:


I made a perm... Out of a winch blob o dm and a sliver of glass.... *hides*