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Aya042
03-09-2010, 01:42 PM
Introduction

To be more specific about "the thermo", I'm guessing this method will only let you cheat the following thermos (see comphermc's excellent Comprehensive Thermo Overview and Guide (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?16840-Comprehensive-Thermo-Overview-and-Guide) for more details)...

Complex Shapes (investigations ongoing)
Materials (you can use all 172 materials in a level simultaneously)
Moving Objects (you can exceed the usual limit of about 1400 up to the 'shapes and objects' limit of about 2500)

...however, it's possible that a variation of this technique may allow you to cheat some of the other thermos too.

Edit: And indeed it does. My newer thread How To Seriously Cheat The Thermo (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?23793-How-To-Seriously-Cheat-The-Thermo#post412677) makes this one look like the random mutterings of a mad man. :)

However, I'll leave this one here for posterity.


Method

N.B. I'm using 100 objects for this example, but you can theoretically use any number you like, up to the maximum number of blocks of dark matter which it's possible to place in a level.

1. Pause the simulation.

2. Create 100 blocks of dark matter, capture them all as a single entity, then delete the blocks.

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13855

3. Create another dark matter block, attach an emitter and a grab switch, and wire the grab switch to the emitter. Use the following settings (leave unspecified settings at their default values):-

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13854

Emitter
Lifetime: ∞
Max Emitted At Once: 1

Grab Switch
Behaviour: One-Shot

4. Unpause the simulation, set the emitter to emit the previously captured set of 100 blocks somewhere nearby, and then toggle the "Inverted" setting on then off again to trigger it once.

5. The objects you now have are thermo-calculated as the same 100 blocks of dark matter that are associated with the emitter's thermo calculation. What this means is, any changes you make to these objects don't affect the thermo at all. It still calculates them as being 100 blocks of dark matter regardless. Here's a picture where I've used this technique to have all 172 materials in a level at the same time:-

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13853


Caveats

There's a few rules on what you can and can't do with the emitted objects in order to retain the thermo savings. These lists are by no means exhaustive, but should give you a general idea:-

Things you can do

Move or resize the objects.
Change the material types of the objects.
Extend (with a brush the same material), cut into, or corner edit the objects, although if you split an object into two pieces, then one of them will not count as being one of the emitted objects.
Glue or attach to another object with any connector.
Attach mag keys, switches, etc.
Embed another material inside, although the embedded material won't be 'free'.
Lethalise and unlethalise the objects.



Things you can't do

Delete any of the emitted objects. If you do, then the emitted objects are no longer deemed to be the same as the ones in the emitter. It seems that you can crush one of the objects with a heavy object, and it will still be okay.
Delete the emitter which emitted the objects. If you do, then the objects lose their association with the emitter and will take up their full thermo space.
Trigger the emitter again, without increasing Max Emitted At Once, or else you'll lose all changes you made to the emitted objects.
Copy and paste any of the objects. Well, you can, but the copy won't count as one of the emitted objects.



Other tips

It should be pretty obvious when you break the association with the emitter, because the thermo will suddenly jump. If this happens, just rewind and rethink. :)
Be aware that cheating the thermo in this way makes it much easier to create a level which the game engine can't handle, so be careful.
rtm has suggested that this cheat hasn't always worked in previous versions of the game, so bear in mind that MM may 'fix' this exploit in a later patch.
You don't have to create all the blocks you'll need in a single hit. If you just emit, say, 100 at a time, then when you need another hundred, simply increase "Max Emitted At Once" by one, and trigger the emitter again. It seems I can tweak a 100-block emitter's setting up to 25 before the thermo goes mental, which implies you're limited to about 2500 blocks of DM.

rtm223
03-09-2010, 02:50 PM
Hmmm, I can see how you are extending the materials thermo, but not the complex shapes thermo.... Moveing objects yes, if you glue to dark matter via an intermediate piece and crush that...

It used to be the case that changing to play mode / saving the level would lose the association between the emitted object and it's emitter, which would completely undermine this technique. Although rewinding used to do that too and I'm pretty sure that's been fixed recently, so probably this has too.

Aya042
03-09-2010, 03:05 PM
Hmmm, I can see how you are extending the materials thermo, but not the complex shapes thermo.... Moveing objects yes, if you glue to dark matter via an intermediate piece and crush that...

I'm working on the assumption that the thermo calculation for the emitted objects is always the same as how the objects were originally emitted, regardless of how much editing you do, therefore adding an arbitrary number of vertices to one of the emitted objects will have no bearing on the complex shapes thermo calculation (which comphy's guide claims is roughly proportional the the sum of all vertices used). However, that's kinda awkward to prove right now.

As for the moving objects, that's easy to prove. The thermo difference between placing 100 blocks of dark matter compared to 100 blocks of, say, sponge, it quite apparent. So when I emit 100 blocks of dark matter, material change them all to sponge, and the thermo doesn't go up at all, that stongly implies that those 100 moving objects are not counted on the moving objects thermo.

I'm fairly certain that this technique works, but feel free to prove me wrong. :p

rtm223
03-09-2010, 03:10 PM
(which comphy's guide claims is roughly proportional the the sum of all vertices used). I'm willing to place money on the fact that number of vertices is only part of the equation for complex shapes. I don't know exactly what the rest is, but it's not just a vertex count ;)

Sounds right though, if you were to emit blocks of DM (say 2499 of them, if my memory is correct), then corner edit your entire level out of that..... My god the posibilities are endless ;) It would be tedious to test though as you'd have to do all the corner editing manually. Seems like a sound theory. Maybe capture an object that nearly maxes the complex shapes thermo and edit that for a while?


As for the moving objects, that's easy to prove. The thermo difference between placing 100 blocks of dark matter compared to 100 blocks of, say, sponge, it quite apparent. So when I emit 100 blocks of dark matter, material change them all to sponge, and the thermo doesn't go up at all, that stongly implies that those 100 moving objects are not counted on the moving objects thermo. Lol, yeah just tweak... I didn't actually think of that :p


I'm fairly certain that this technique works, but feel free to prove me wrong. :p As I said, my only doubt is that you can lose the association, but I think that got fixed up - probably to stop you losing the association when people join midway through a level. Seeing as rewind no longer does it, players joining no longer does it, it's probably safe that changing to play mode no longer does it either.

comphermc
03-09-2010, 03:23 PM
Aya, you just blew my mind. First one to make a level that completely crashes a PS3 wins a shiny penny.

:)

Aya042
03-09-2010, 03:26 PM
...if you were to emit blocks of DM (say 2499 of them, if my memory is correct), then corner edit your entire level out of that...

That's kinda what I was suggesting. :)

It also seems that you can paint over them with the same material type (just added this to the OP), and the thermo doesn't go up either, so it's actually not much harder to do it this way than creating the materials from scratch.



As I said, my only doubt is that you can lose the association...

Well, so far I've listed the only ways I've found to lose the association. It seems that saving and reloading a level maintains the thermo savings. But, as I also said, my testing of this is not comprehensive.

My next test is to see how many different material types I can use at once without overflowing the hardware texture buffer (if it's in use). I'm also curious to see if attempting to overflow the buffer might provide a consistent way to recreate the transparent sticker glitch.

Doopz
03-09-2010, 03:28 PM
Aya, you just blew my mind. First one to make a level that completely crashes a PS3 wins a shiny penny.

:)

I've done that without cheating the thermo...

Luos_83
03-09-2010, 03:29 PM
I'm willing to place money on the fact that number of vertices is only part of the equation for complex shapes. I don't know exactly what the rest is, but it's not just a vertex countVertex count, polygon count, shader, Polygon optimisation-complexity
(I am not sure of shader, but most engines I have worked with store the shader (Shadows created on object) in the object itself.)
I also "Assume" the LBP engine will optimise Polygons in objects, optimisation in complex objects can actually result in being more complex for memory.


My next test is to see how many different material types I can use at once without overflowing the hardware texture buffer (if it's in use). I'm also curious to see if attempting to overflow the buffer might provide a consistent way to recreate the transparent sticker glitch. Transparant stickers means the alpha channel in the created sticker got activated,
This might have nothing to do with stressing the buffer but just a random bug glitching while making a sticker, probably affected by the bg where the sticker is made and there are so many variables that I am starting to think simple overflowing the buffer wont cut it.
Me and adi's Arena/Magpie levels often overflowed the buffer causing either me or adi to crash when rewinding/selecting large/complex objects and no sticker we created glitched.
variables.. variables..
For all we know a speck of dust on the guys disc resulted in this glitch.

rtm223
03-09-2010, 03:37 PM
Aya, you just blew my mind. First one to make a level that completely crashes a PS3 wins a shiny penny.
I've done that without cheating the thermo...

Comphy, I can crash your PS3 from across the atlantic without cheating the thermo lol ;)




That's kinda what I was suggesting. :) An alternative, would be to create a scene (scene c), capture it, emit it into the level, move it somewhere else and use the resources there to create a new scene (scene a). Place a third scene (scene b) inbetween the two.

Player plays through scene a, gets to scene b, emitter is triggered, scene a vanishes and scene b appears.


It will be interesting to see what this does to the game. Other thermo hacks are only possible by freeing up thermo elsewhere during play mode. This is the first hack I know of in create mode, which would mean that the entire thing is required in memory at once. Obviously having no idea how things are stored in the PS3's memory during playtime means we have no idea what the actual results of this would be. If you add hundreds of verteces beyond the limits of what is normally allowed, that data has to get stored somewhere :(

Luos_83
03-09-2010, 03:48 PM
If you add hundreds of verteces beyond the limits of what is normally allowed, that data has to get stored somewhere

Eventually objects wont appear, their collisions are there but the engine is not able to render any new objects/stickers.
This can be undone by deleting complex objects in area's the player wont visit again.
Also removing complex objects after the player is "done" with them will probably empty out the memory again.
but best is just to optimise the shape offcourse :p

Keldur
03-09-2010, 03:55 PM
I'm no supermind of LBP, so I am simply going to say what most of us who come through this thread think: Thanks.

Out of curiosity and interest, have you already used this technique in a full length level? However, if you don't have objective data, a subjective opinion would also work. Do you think this is reliable when applied in a full length level?

Somebody lock this thread exclusively for Spaff!

rtm223
03-09-2010, 03:55 PM
Eventually objects wont appear, their collisions are there but the engine is not able to render any new objects/stickers.
This can be undone by deleting complex objects in area's the player wont visit again

Ummmm, that's my whole point. This is what you normally do with thermo hacks. You destroy the previous areas, creating space, then overload the thermo into that space.

Here we are (potentially) overloading memory to begin with. All the verteces are going to be in working memory at the start of the level and the physics engine will be using them. There is nothing to destroy yet!

Luos_83
03-09-2010, 04:09 PM
Here we are (potentially) overloading memory to begin with. All the verteces are going to be in working memory at the start of the level and the physics engine will be using them. There is nothing to destroy yet!

good luck! :)

Aya042
03-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Vertex count, polygon count, shader, Polygon optimisation-complexity...

I agree it's almost certainly more complicated than a simple vertex count, but unfortunately (without seeing the source code) we can only speculate about exactly what contributes to this thermo. However, I think it's reasonable to assume that the more vertices you have, the higher this thermo is going to get.



Transparant stickers means the alpha channel in the created sticker got activated...

Indeed. The only reason I'm suggesting this is that the best working theory about this so far is it's somehow caused by an occasional rendering failure on a material texture, and this might provide a way to recreate such a failure. But, as I said, it's highly speculative.



Me and adi's Arena/Magpie levels often overflowed the buffer causing either me or adi to crash when rewinding/selecting large/complex objects and no sticker we created glitched.

It's very easy to recreate a situation where the materials appear with warning sign symbols on them, but from looking at a video of someone exploiting the glitch, that isn't the way to do it.



For all we know a speck of dust on the guys disc resulted in this glitch.

Perhaps, but the fact that it's happened to more than one individual would suggest there's something more to it than a random speck of dust. :)



An alternative, would be to create a scene (scene c), capture it, emit it into the level, move it somewhere else and use the resources there to create a new scene (scene a). Place a third scene (scene b) inbetween the two.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think that would work. If you modify the blocks, then recapture, they lose their association with the emitter, even if you capture the emitter with them, so when you place that 'scene' into the emitter, it charges you the full thermo cost.



If you add hundreds of verteces beyond the limits of what is normally allowed, that data has to get stored somewhere :(

I don't think the game penalizes you that much for the actual amount of memory that the vectors take up, after all, it's completely marginalized by the amount of space that the maximum number of custom sticker bitmaps would take up.

Ditto for prize bubbles, which despite taking up very little thermo, actually have to store all the data about the objects contained within, somewhere in the level file.

You can get a rough idea of how much storage space a level needs by exporting it to a file and seeing how big that file is. I'd be willing to bet that those levels which use lots of custom stickers, and/or have prize bubbles which contain objects with lots of custom stickers, take up a lot more space than those which just use the maximum number of vertices possible.

Also bear in mind that you don't have to emit all the blocks in one go. If you just emit, say, 100 at a time, then when you need another hundred, simply increase "Max Emitted At Once" by one, and trigger the emitter again. It seems I can tweak my original 100-block emitter's setting up to 30 before the thermo goes mental, which implies you're limited to about 3000 blocks of DM.

Luos_83
03-09-2010, 04:26 PM
I agree it's almost certainly more complicated than a simple vertex count, but unfortunately (without seeing the source code) we can only speculate about exactly what contributes to this thermo. However, I think it's reasonable to assume that the more vertices you have, the higher this thermo is going to get.

Not true, sometimes more vertexes can result in more optimal polygons, resulting in being smaller in filesize.

rtm223
03-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think that would work. If you modify the blocks, then recapture, they lose their association with the emitter, even if you capture the emitter with them, so when you place that 'scene' into the emitter, it charges you the full thermo cost. It will charge the full cost for scene C, but charge you nothing for scene A, as it is a modified version of scene C. Not entirely sure it gives much benefit, and it would be a right pain in the butt, but conceptually it's kinda cool nonetheless.


I don't think the game penalizes you that much for the actual amount of memory that the vectors take up, after all, it's completely marginalized by the amount of space that the maximum number of custom sticker bitmaps would take up. True, but custom stickers could be loaded into working memory as required. All verteces in the level are liable to be in working memory.


Ditto for prize bubbles, which despite taking up very little thermo, actually have to store all the data about the objects contained within, somewhere in the level file. Again, no need for them being in working memory either. The actual prize in the prize bubble takes up zero thermo, probably for this reason. Why load the object into memory before it is needed, it can be stored on the HDD. Obviously, pure speculation, but isn't that the way you would make it?

All the complexity of the objects needs to be stored and manipulated in realtime. I'm just saying that this method, whilst awesome, could be dangerous. At some point, as you say in the OP, the level could get to the point that the engine can't handle, for any number of reasons. I'm not saying that I won't be using this, but when I do, I'll be using it with caution.


@luos: yes, rectangles can take up less complex shapes thermo than free-form triangles, from what I've seen. The complex shapes thermo is by far the hardest one to second guess and predict IMO.

Aya042
03-09-2010, 04:52 PM
Out of curiosity and interest, have you already used this technique in a full length level?

No. The idea came to me in a drunken stupor after I got home last night. I scribbled down some virtually illegible notes, and then passed out. :)

I was convinced that it wouldn't work until I tried it out today, and was somewhat shocked by the results.



Do you think this is reliable when applied in a full length level?

Again, I have no idea. I'm doing more experiments to see how stable this is. I'll update the thread with results as I get them. The reason I'm posting this finding before finishing my tests is that it will allow others to test it out too.



Not true, sometimes more vertexes can result in more optimal polygons, resulting in being smaller in filesize.

I can't think of any examples where that would be true. Surely for every extra vertex, one additional face is created on the edge of the object, and each additional face requires extra polygons to render it?

RoharDragontamer
03-09-2010, 05:50 PM
No. The idea came to me in a drunken stupor after I got home last night. I scribbled down some virtually illegible notes, and then passed out. :)
I was skeptical about playing with this method until I read this! I've made all my most important advancements using this very technique!! (Except I actually try to create stuff holding one hand over my left eye so the screen stays in focus.)

Aya042
03-09-2010, 06:02 PM
It will charge the full cost for scene C, but charge you nothing for scene A, as it is a modified version of scene C. Not entirely sure it gives much benefit, and it would be a right pain in the butt, but conceptually it's kinda cool nonetheless.

Ah. I see what you mean. Yeah, that should work, but it would, as you say, be a right pain in the butt. :)



True, but custom stickers could be loaded into working memory as required. All verteces in the level are liable to be in working memory.

I'd guess that the custom stickers probably are too, but I was more referring to the filesize of the level on disk, rather than its memory usage. However, given that even the largest of LBP levels aren't actually that big (in megabytes), you could probably load the entire level into active memory anyway.



At some point, as you say in the OP, the level could get to the point that the engine can't handle, for any number of reasons. I'm not saying that I won't be using this, but when I do, I'll be using it with caution.

Well, I'd recommend caution regardless. LBP has its share of bugs, so it's always wise to make regular backups. I mean you can seriously crash the game just by creating an object that only has two vertices. :)



I'll update the thread with results as I get them.

Okay. I've completed a test whereby I have blocks of all 210 material types in the same level at the same time, and there seems to be no adverse rendering issues (which is a shame, because I was hoping to trigger the transparent sticker glitch).

This means I've seriously exceeded the materials thermo limit, and the game can cope just fine, so even if you only use this technique to use more material types than it would normally let you, you should be fine. FWIW, the thermo is only at the first notch, which is what it costs to have 300 blocks of DM in a level.

Next test is to exceed the moving objects thermo...

v0rtex
03-09-2010, 06:03 PM
Why are you people so concerned with v0rtex count!? There is only one and I am the very bes...

*pauses to listen to casual bystander whispering in ear*

...oh... VERtex count. Right. Carry on.



On topic though, this is a really cool discovery, though as several have mentioned, potentially very dangerous. I was fascinated by the fact that I can load up the emitters in my Virtual Reality Survival levels to the point of overheating, but if I go through and drop the Max-Emitted-At-Once to zero on all of them, my thermo drops back down to 3 bars ( and those are for the actual deployment logic).

rtm223
03-09-2010, 06:54 PM
On topic though, this is a really cool discovery, though as several have mentioned, potentially very dangerous. I was fascinated by the fact that I can load up the emitters in my Virtual Reality Survival levels to the point of overheating, but if I go through and drop the Max-Emitted-At-Once to zero on all of them, my thermo drops back down to 3 bars ( and those are for the actual deployment logic).

Well of course, those objects you can't emit will never be emitted so don't need to be taken into account during play. They will bump up the filesize, but they aren't significant to the engine in any way :)



OK, I have an update. Good and bad news here people (mostly good)

Summary:
Good News: You can push the complex objects thermo beyond it's normal point using this.
Bad News: If you do, you will not be allowed to add new objects to the level. This will make it very hard to actually develop with towards the end of your level. Ideally you would want to keep a bunch of emitted squares in reserve so that you can use them for tweaking at the end.
Good News: You can corner edit existing objects, which will contribute to the thermo that is shown, Mag switches and the like, that have no physical properties are fair game to add, as are connectors.
Better News: It all seems moderately stable. Unlike when you normally overflow the thermo, emitters and paintenators do still work work, it's just that you can't place new objects in the level.

I'm going out, but I'll publish exactly how I came to these conclusions in a bit, so you can pick any flaws with it. It's basically a case of creating the grid of dark matter, (nearly) maxing out the thermo with normal objects and then corner editing some of the emitted dark matter.

Aya042
03-09-2010, 07:13 PM
I'm going out, but I'll publish exactly how I came to these conclusions in a bit, so you can pick any flaws with it. It's basically a case of creating the grid of dark matter, (nearly) maxing out the thermo with normal objects and then corner editing some of the emitted dark matter.

Thanks for that, and in advance for when you publish how you came to these conclusions.

I shall still continue to run my own tests on this, but I'm off out too in an hour, so I'll have to do it tomorrow.

rtm223
03-09-2010, 08:20 PM
OK, so here's what I did:


Create your 100 pieces of Dark Matter
Capture
Delete
Emit them in create mode
Place a paintenator (for testing).
Create a complex shape (as complex as you can make an individual shape), preferably out of dark matter, so you can't break it easily.
Copy and paste that as many times as you can.
Fill up the rest of the complex shapes thermo with squares of dark matter.


At this point, if you corner edit one of those squares, you should overheat pretty quick.

Delete one vertex to drop the thermo back to just inside maximum.
Corner edit another normal / non-emitted square, you should be able to break the thermo with a couple of verteces (this is just for control).
Undo that.


Arguably, if the emitted squares were equal to the non-emitted ones, then we should not be able to add more than a couple of verteces to the emitted squares:


Grab one of the emitted squares.
Corner edit that, just like the normal / non-emitted square.


You should be able to corner edit this to
your heart's content. This demonstrates that the emitted objects allow you to exceed the normal thermo limits.

Feel free to do some of the things you can't do from the OP. The thermo will overheat each time. Again, this just demonstrates that all aya said was right.



Now for adding new items to the level:
Delete one of the normal / non-emitted squares.
Try to place a new one. You will not be allowed.


You can delete a few of these and it will stil not let you, even though you should have cleared up some thermo to add items to the level.

Retrigger the emitter.This will undo the extra verteces you created in the emitted object.
Place a square of dark matter. This will be fine.


So, obviously the extra verteces are taken into account in some way, even though they don't overheat the thermo.

Rewind to before the point that you retriggered the emitter, so you still have the bonus verteces. Check that you still can't add a square manually.


Add a new emitter to the level.
Set to max at once 1, infinite lifetime
Place a previously captured single square of DM in there.
Play. It will emit


This is more useful if you want to import a contraption, prebuilt object, logic piece or something like that into the level, without the hassle of having to build from scratch out of the emitted squares.

You can either keep that object as linked to the new emitter, or simply delete that emitter, which will make the object like any other non-emitted object in the level.


Note that the paintenator still works. Which is always a good test that the level has not overheated in play mode. Also the above trick with the emitter will also help things.

Aya042
03-09-2010, 11:20 PM
OK, so here's what I did...

Thanks again. I've just come back from the pub [*cough* who said "alcoholic"? I deny everything :D], so I shall take a closer look in the morning.

Incinerator22
03-10-2010, 01:33 AM
Holy &%$$... This is bigger than the layer glitch.

rtm223
03-10-2010, 01:36 AM
When you do, if you have time, try the following:

I found that that you could cut out the objects (using another material and pressing triangle) that you have emitted. You coul duse this to really demolish the thermo quickly by cutting each of the squares into complex shapes. I'd guess (didn't think to try) that once you reach the point that it won't let you place any more objects it will stop you from cutting.

At that point you could try emitting a nearly full thermo full of other complex shapes into the level. It should let you do that and you may have double the complex shapes thermo allowance. Might be interesting to see what that does. Probably not that great an indicator of anything much, but might yield some useful info....

Incinerator22
03-10-2010, 01:38 AM
I sure hope this doesn't get patched :(

warlord_evil
03-10-2010, 03:35 AM
Cheat the thermo!? You can't cheat the thermo, the thermo cheats you! :p




Very nice find, although I don't think I'll be using it as I don't really have problems with the thermometer too much. :(

Aya042
03-10-2010, 11:36 AM
OK, so here's what I did...

I used a slightly different method.

First of all, I worked out approximately how many vertices you can have normally. For this, I used a square of DM, and cut a sackboy shape out of the middle, which is a fast way to add another 53 vertices to an object. Then I copied and pasted as many as I could until it wouldn't let me. Result was 297 copies before the thermo overheated.

Then I tried again by emitting 400 squares of DM, and cutting a sackboy shape out of each one. The thermo didn't go up at all while I was doing this, but after the 369th sackboy, it wouldn't let me cut any more, and I got the complex objects warning, even though the thermo was still only at 1.5 notches (of 16).

The implication here is that there might actually be two complex object limitations. One soft limit, which is measured by the thermo, and the other being an absolute hard limit which there's no way to exceed.

However, the hard limit would seem to be about 25% higher than the soft limit, so you can still squeeze a few extra vertices out of the system using this method. The refresh rate does tend to struggle when there's a lot of complex objects in one place, but it does that without using this cheat, so I don't think you're going to break anything by using it.



I found that that you could cut out the objects (using another material and pressing triangle) that you have emitted. You coul duse this to really demolish the thermo quickly by cutting each of the squares into complex shapes. I'd guess (didn't think to try) that once you reach the point that it won't let you place any more objects it will stop you from cutting.

Pretty much the method I used. I thought it would be the quickest way to add vertices to the emitted objects.



At that point you could try emitting a nearly full thermo full of other complex shapes into the level. It should let you do that and you may have double the complex shapes thermo allowance.

Perhaps, but you're playing with fire at this point. When you reach the point where you've hit the hard limit, your level is going to pretty much uneditable, which isn't much use from a practical POV.

rtm223
03-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Then I tried again by emitting 400 squares of DM, and cutting a sackboy shape out of each one. The thermo didn't go up at all while I was doing this, but after the 369th sackboy, it wouldn't let me cut any more, and I got the complex objects warning, even though the thermo was still only at 1.5 notches (of 16).

The implication here is that there might actually be two complex object limitations. One soft limit, which is measured by the thermo, and the other being an absolute hard limit which there's no way to exceed.

Hmmm, was the warning you got "this object is too complicated, you cannot add any more to it", or was it "your level has over heated, try using less complicated shapes". Also, when you say, there is no way to exceed it, did you attempt corner editing the original emitted objects, or emitting objects into the level, because I found both of these methods were possible beyond the point where it stops you adding directly into the level.

Rogar
03-10-2010, 12:39 PM
Not true, sometimes more vertexes can result in more optimal polygons, resulting in being smaller in filesize.

How does that work, then?


First of all, I worked out approximately how many vertices you can have normally. For this, I used a square of DM, and cut a sackboy shape out of the middle, which is a fast way to add another 53 vertices to an object. Then I copied and pasted as many as I could until it wouldn't let me. Result was 297 copies before the thermo overheated.

Then I tried again by emitting 400 squares of DM, and cutting a sackboy shape out of each one. The thermo didn't go up at all while I was doing this, but after the 369th sackboy, it wouldn't let me cut any more, and I got the complex objects warning, even though the thermo was still only at 1.5 notches (of 16).

Be aware that there's some thermo difference in these two methods even without cheating the thermo. Mm claimed that copying objects was more efficient in their thermo video, and I managed to somewhat confirm this with a test similar to yours (see the Comprehensive Thermo thread). The difference was small, but you could get slightly more shapes through copying.

Also, some of this stuff reminds me of some inconsistencies when running close to the thermo limits on the PSP. I deleted some objects or vertices but wasn't allowed to add new objects that I was making room for. I don't know if these things happen on the PS3, but if they do, some results might be misinterpreted.

Aya042
03-10-2010, 12:40 PM
Hmmm, was the warning you got "this object is too complicated, you cannot add any more to it", or was it "your level has over heated, try using less complicated shapes".

It was the former. After all, the level never actually overheated in the sense that the thermo never went above 1.5 notches.



Also, when you say, there is no way to exceed it, did you attempt corner editing the original emitted objects, or emitting objects into the level, because I found both of these methods were possible beyond the point where it stops you adding directly into the level.

Yes, I could still make some changes, including being able to paint new blocks of DM into the level, but not many. Point is that when you're that close to the hard limit, the restrictions the game places on you, in terms of what it will or won't let you do, are most likely too annoying for the average creator.

If you really want to squeeze a few more vertices out of the level, you can, but you'll be very restricted in the ways in which you can do it.

I'm currently attempting to break the 'moving objects' limitation, although this is one you'd probably never exceed in an actual level, since it gives you 1400 moving objects to play with, which is usually more than enough. I'm guessing I can probably extend it up to the 'objects and shapes' limit which is around 3000, although it's very tedious having to material change this many objects manually.

My next challenge will be to try cheating some of the other thermos, but I'd less confident about being able to do that. Ideally, I'd like to exceed the collected objects thermo, and be able to have more than about 1400 mag keys/switches in a level.

Out of curiosity, which thermos tend to be the most problematic when building a typical level?

comphermc
03-10-2010, 01:10 PM
Out of curiosity, which thermos tend to be the most problematic when building a typical level?

Shapes and collected objects. Make it go away! :cry:

rtm223
03-10-2010, 01:58 PM
I'm currently attempting to break the 'moving objects' limitation, although this is one you'd probably never exceed in an actual level, since it gives you 1400 moving objects to play with, which is usually more than enough. I'm guessing I can probably extend it up to the 'objects and shapes' limit which is around 3000, although it's very tedious having to material change this many objects manually.

No need. If you emit 100 shapes of a different material, with gaps inbetween and glue them to a thin layer of dark matter in the front, they will all count as static objects. Then just unglue the DM after emitting and you will have 100 moving objects and one static object.

Aya042
03-10-2010, 02:26 PM
Also, some of this stuff reminds me of some inconsistencies when running close to the thermo limits on the PSP. I deleted some objects or vertices but wasn't allowed to add new objects that I was making room for. I don't know if these things happen on the PS3, but if they do, some results might be misinterpreted.

I've found the PSP's thermo to be highly inconsistent, probably due to a memory leak. The PS3's, however, seems to be okay.



If you emit 100 shapes of a different material, with gaps inbetween and glue them to a thin layer of dark matter in the front, they will all count as static objects. Then just unglue the DM after emitting and you will have 100 moving objects and one static object.

I gave up anyway - it was too tedious. :)

I just noticed something else, though - I miscounted - my original 10x10-block emitter was actually only 9x9, which accounts for the 25% difference. Seems I can only cut out about 300 sackboys after all, which is the same as you can do without the hack.

I've updated the OP to correct for this, so this may not be as useful as I originally thought. However, even if this means you can't actually squeeze any more out of the complex objects thermo, you can definately still use it to have more materials at the same time.

rtm223
03-10-2010, 02:35 PM
I've updated the OP to correct for this, so this may not be as useful as I originally thought. However, even if this means you can't actually squeeze any more out of the complex objects thermo, you can definately still use it to have more materials at the same time.

Well that's exactly what I found last night. At exactly the point that the normal thermo would overheat, you lose the ability to place objects directly into the level and as I predicted, you lose the ability to use those objects to cut into other objects.

However, you can still continue to add to the level, via the corner editor and by building in an alternate level, capturing and emitting.

Sure, it's not easy, but that's not stopping people using the extra layers now, is it? ;)

Aya042
03-11-2010, 02:56 PM
Shapes and collected objects. Make it go away! :cry:

Wheee! I think I can do this too, or at least the collected objects. I just found a way to have 2000 mag keys in a level (usual limit is 1400) and still have nearly zero thermo use. Plus it will still let me place more, which implies that, unlike the complex object thermo, this one can be seriously exploited. :D

I shall make a proper post later on when I have time.