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Aya042
03-11-2010, 05:55 PM
Introduction

It seems my previous post (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?23674-How-To-Cheat-The-Thermo#post410607) on the subject wasn't good enough for some people... ;)



Out of curiosity, which thermos tend to be the most problematic when building a typical level?Shapes and collected objects. Make it go away! :cry:

...so after several hours of deep thought, and trial and error, I found a way to make comphy's day (and probably a few other people's too).

This method is kind of the same as the previous one, but in reverse. i.e. rather than emitting dark matter and 'editing' it to make it what you want, just emit what you want, and 'edit' it to make it dark matter.

This time, you can theoretically cheat all the thermos, by making any object, set of objects, or theoretically your entire level, only cost as much as one block of dark matter!


Method

1. Capture a single block of dark matter.

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13893


2. Capture the object, or set of objects you want to get for free, as a single entity. Here I'm using a variety of fairly complex MM objects which take up about 10 of the 16 notches on the thermo, since I'm too lazy to build anything that complicated for the purposes of a tutorial. :p

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13892


3. Create another dark matter block, attach an emitter and a grab switch, and wire the grab switch to the emitter. Use the following settings (leave unspecified settings at their default values):-

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13854

Emitter
Lifetime: ∞
Max Emitted At Once: 1

Grab Switch
Behaviour: One-Shot


4. Set the emitter to emit the previously captured object, or set of objects somewhere nearby, and then toggle the "Inverted" setting on then off again to trigger it once. Since you'll need to unpause the simulation to emit the objects, you'll have to be careful of gravity affecting those objects.


5. Now set the same emitter to emit the previously captured single block of dark matter somewhere nearby, but don't trigger it. As soon as you select its emitted location, watch in awe as the thermo drops to near zero, as you've just tricked the thermo into believing that the objects you previously emitted should be thermo-calculated as the same single block of dark matter that is associated with the emitter's thermo calculation.


Caveats

There's a few rules on what you can and can't do with the emitted objects in order to retain the thermo savings. These lists are by no means exhaustive, but should give you a general idea:-

Things you can do

Move or resize the objects.
Change the material types of the objects.
Extend (with a brush the same material), cut into, or corner edit the objects, although if you split an object into two pieces, then one of them will not count as being one of the emitted objects.
Glue or attach to another object with any connector.
Attach mag keys, switches, etc.
Embed another material inside, although the embedded material won't be 'free'.
Lethalise and unlethalise the objects.



Things you can't do

Delete any of the emitted objects. If you do, then the emitted objects are no longer deemed to be the same as the ones in the emitter. It seems that you can crush one of the objects with a heavy object, and it will still be okay.
Delete the emitter which emitted the objects. If you do, then the objects lose their association with the emitter and will take up their full thermo space.
Trigger the emitter again, or else you'll end up with just a single block of DM.
Copy and paste any of the objects. Well, you can, but the copy won't count as one of the emitted objects.



Other tips

It should be pretty obvious when you break the association with the emitter, because the thermo will suddenly jump. If this happens, just rewind and rethink. :)
Be aware that cheating the thermo in this way makes it much easier to create a level which the game engine can't handle, so be careful.
rtm has suggested cheats of this nature haven't always worked in previous versions of the game, so bear in mind that MM may 'fix' this exploit in a later patch.
Capturing and emitting certain combinations of objects seem to prevent you from subsequently selecting individual objects independantly. I'm not sure what the exact criteria are for this to occur, but you can always work around it by emitting problematic objects separately using another emitter.

rtm223
03-11-2010, 05:59 PM
Now you're just being silly ;)

Kern
03-11-2010, 06:05 PM
You are unbelievable... WOW

Aya042
03-11-2010, 06:07 PM
Now you're just being silly ;)

I thought you might like this. I'm expecting SS redux to be twice the size of the original. :p

There are still a few oddities with this, particularly when emitting multiple objects at the same time. Now, as I said, you can emit them separately if you like, but what happens when you use up the collected objects thermo with all the emitters and grab switches you need to leave lying around?

Simple, just emit those emitters from another emitter, and you can get all those for free too. Your entire level should never require more thermo than:-


Two blocks of dark matter
One emitter
One grab switch


Funky, eh? :)

rtm223
03-11-2010, 06:29 PM
Of course, this still has the same limitation as the previous method. Once to push things too far you can't actually add new material to the level without the use of an emitter. Which yesterday was too hard for the average creator ;)

Kern
03-11-2010, 06:33 PM
Surely this does register on the Invisible thermo, as in Game Memory, but the visual representation doesn't catch it?

Aya042
03-11-2010, 06:44 PM
Of course, this still has the same limitation as the previous method. Once to push things too far you can't actually add new material to the level without the use of an emitter. Which yesterday was too hard for the average creator ;)

I actually said "too annoying". :p

I guess you could argue that you'll still have the complex objects limitation, but since this technique makes it so simple to build your level in smaller pieces on different craters, then emit them into a single level, and piece them together, that you might be able to get away with it, although you'll still be "playing with fire".

This is only based on your observation that you could seemingly break the complex object limitation if you only ever emitted parts into your level, rather than placing them in the old-fashioned way, but since I haven't actually tested that theory, I'm taking your word for it.

Therefore my claim that this can break all the thermos is based on your word, so if I'm wrong, it's all your fault. ;)

rseah
03-11-2010, 06:53 PM
:O nice ill try it out

comphermc
03-11-2010, 06:55 PM
so if I'm wrong, it's all your fault. ;)

Ah, the ol' passing of the baton of blame. Nice.

---

Seriously, though. Are you rain man? Quick, how many toothpicks?

http://luciezook.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/l_square-toothpicks.jpg

Aya042
03-11-2010, 07:30 PM
Surely this does register on the Invisible thermo, as in Game Memory, but the visual representation doesn't catch it?

I'm really just judging it from the POV of what the visible thermo tells you. Now there may be other limitations, which I stipulated to in the OP, but there's really nothing I can do about those.

Another oddity I have noticed, which might be attributed to "invisible" limitations is that eventually, some blocks of material will fail to render, but I'm not sure if this is due to an invisible "objects too close together" limitation or an invisible "too many objects" limitation, because my tests generally involved cramming as many blocks of DM into as small a space as possible, just to make things easier.

However, since it actually started happening long before I even hit the standard 2500 objects limitation, I'm more inclined to believe that it's just a case of the objects being too close together, which is generally less of an issue in a real level. Although it was perfectly happy to let me emit more than 2500, albeit invisibly, into the level.

On the other hand, it was perfectly happy with rendering 2000 mag keys (which is over the usual limit of 1400) on the screen at the same time. So if you just want some uber-complex logic, you'll probably be okay.



Ah, the ol' passing of the baton of blame. Nice.

Not that I really need to. I think I used enough instances of the word "theoretically" in the OP to absolve myself from any blame. :)



Seriously, though. Are you rain man? Quick, how many toothpicks?

http://luciezook.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/l_square-toothpicks.jpg

None. I only see 50,500 pixels. :p

rtm223
03-11-2010, 07:54 PM
I guess you could argue that you'll still have the complex objects limitation, but since this technique makes it so simple to build your level in smaller pieces on different craters, then emit them into a single level, and piece them together, that you might be able to get away with it, although you'll still be "playing with fire". That is exactly what I was thinking about it the other day. This is going to be one of those things that we will either have to prod gently to see how far it can go, or wait for someone to really go mental with it and see what state they end up in :p

On a side note, I'm not going to be using this in setbacks. To much risk to subject my baby to it, much as I'd love to ram the thing with extra detail.





Seriously, though. Are you rain man? Quick, how many toothpicks?

http://luciezook.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/l_square-toothpicks.jpg

None. I only see 50,500 pixels. :p

Lol, this reminds me of a conversation the other day. I'm still waiting on an answer comphy:

comphermc
03-11-2010, 07:56 PM
Now, I was thinking about this a bit more and am wondering about the practicality of it all. It all rests on the following question: Can you copy the 'Cheating' objects and emitter block and transfer them to a new level, while maintaining the trick?

If not, I see one of two problems:

If you need the glitch, then you are tight on space. Good luck getting the objects into the level to pull of the glitch in the first place.
You did the glitch before building the rest of the level, and even though your thermo says you have plenty space, you reach the ceiling for whatever thermo you are tricking, and it won't let you place anything new.*


Forgive me if I am not understanding its uses in its entirety.

*This is all based on the assumption that the limit still exists, but the thermo is not telling you about it. Hm... perhaps I need to either read the thread again, or do some testing.

:)

Edit: Okay - I'm going to try something. I'm going to capture the beginning of my latest level and emit it, thereby tricking the emitter. Then, I'm going to see if I can add more to it. If I can, I will be giddy as a teenage schoolgirl, and will report my findings.

rtm223
03-11-2010, 08:00 PM
If you need the glitch, then you are tight on space. Good luck getting the objects into the level to pull of the glitch in the first place.
You did the glitch before building the rest of the level, and even though your thermo says you have plenty space, you reach the ceiling for whatever thermo you are tricking, and it won't let you place anything new.*



1 is an issue, although you could use yesterday's technique to help get around that. 2: just emit the new objects into the level. You can't place, but you can emit. This invisible limit is identical to the visible limit, but it only affects things you place manually as far as I could tell yesterday.

At the end of the day, it may well not be that practical... And it may just crash your system. As we've seen, a heavilly maxxed out level is highly liable to crash anyway and this will only add to the strain on the engine.

KQuinn94Z
03-11-2010, 08:11 PM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13894&d=1268340876
I seriously could not be bothered... I avoid logic any more difficult than Logicpack beginner... That's my main weakness. So this looks freaky as heck to me. I don't know how you find it fun...
Ps. Javi move out of the way your heads too big! :D

Nice job Aya.

comphermc
03-11-2010, 08:30 PM
Holy crap! It worked, I was able to cleanly add 21 more bubbles to level. Wow, awesome!

Aya042
03-11-2010, 08:35 PM
Can you copy the 'Cheating' objects and emitter block and transfer them to a new level, while maintaining the trick?

No, but why would you need to?

The way I see it, for a new level, you'd do something like this:-


Build section 1 of your level in one crater, and capture the whole lot.
Build section 2 of your level in another crater, and capture the whole lot.
Go to a third crater, and set up two emitters to emit both those sections into the level, as per the OP.
Pick up the whole of section 2, and link it to section 1.
Result: one level twice the size you could get using traditional techniques, and still zero thermo.


For extending an existing level, just capture that level in its entirety, and use the same technique to link it to a new part.

Point is, for safety, build the sections of your level using traditional techniques, but don't let any single section of your level exceed the thermo. Always re-edit the original craters, then join them back together on a different crater. That way, if the merged level does have problems, you still have the original pieces to work with.

Of course, this can get annoying if you have many wires you need to connect when you're joining the sections together, but you can minimize this by splitting the whole level into sections where they required the least amount of interconnection.

ladylyn1
03-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Imagine the Ama Toor project as one level... this find is crazy!

Aya042
03-11-2010, 08:48 PM
Imagine the Ama Toor project as one level... this find is crazy!

I don't know that one, but comphy's Aperture Science series might be a good test case for this, since the levels pretty much carry on one from the other, and they're already fully independant from a wiring POV. If he could successfully link all three parts (or even just the first two parts) into a single level, that would be a pretty good indication that this might actually be useful from a practical POV.

Doopz
03-11-2010, 09:06 PM
This couldn't have come at a better time... thank you sooooooo muuuuch!!!!!! :)

Rogar
03-11-2010, 09:18 PM
Of course, this can get annoying if you have many wires you need to connect when you're joining the sections together, but you can minimize this by splitting the whole level into sections where they required the least amount of interconnection.

You could some sort of interface between sections, like a central bridge where everyone gets an address and you can send each other data. In fact, we should get started on the ISO standard right now, or everyone will start drifting apart into level-interconnectivity hell. ;)

Alec
03-11-2010, 09:19 PM
Great work!
This could be really helpful for me :D

Morgana25
03-11-2010, 09:28 PM
*picks jaw up off floor*

wow - ok I know I won't be trying this but I'm glad someone is and if people can make this work (and it sure looks like they can) I'm really looking forward to bigger and more complex levels.

Excellent work Aya (and RTM & comphy too) :)

Aya042
03-11-2010, 09:37 PM
You could some sort of interface between sections, like a central bridge where everyone gets an address and you can send each other data. In fact, we should get started on the ISO standard right now, or everyone will start drifting apart into level-interconnectivity hell. ;)

Y'know I thought about something like that, i.e. using uber-complex logic to mux the outputs from multiple wires onto a single wire, but I thought that'd be too geeky for most people. :)

I mean, you can already do it with a remote three-way, i.e. mux two directional wires onto one, although you can't have both active at the same time.

However, this might finally let me build my simulation of a simple microprocessor, like the Intel 8008. It only uses a few thousand transistors, so I ought to be able to do it with a similar number of connectors, mag switches and mag keys. The closest thing I've seen so far is rymdisen's "Fibonacci Computr" (sic) level, which actually has three registers, a data bus and an 8-bit full adder to calculate the Fibbonacci numbers.

I still think I'd be out of luck with my ZX Spectrum emulator though. ;)

Stephanie_Ravens
03-11-2010, 09:40 PM
Thanks for this, I'll try it out soon.

Sehven
03-11-2010, 09:42 PM
Big kudos for figuring this out, but I must say that this is the first exploitable glitch in lbp that I've been afraid to use. I'm sure you all will be doing a fair amount of testing to see exactly what you can and can't get away with (maybe I should even try a test: I've got a 3 part level that was really meant to be a 1 part, but I had to chop it into pieces and put them in seperate craters to continue building them... maybe I can try emitting them back together and see if it really works).

Anyway, the thing that really makes me nervous is that this isn't like other glitches: you're not getting a material that's a combination of others or sticking an object in a layer it shouldn't be able to go. You're messing with the way the game engine deals with resource/memory allocation. As you said: "Playing with fire." While I wouldn't expect a future patch to ruin levels with 3d glitched stuff or material glitched stuff, I could see a future patch easily messing up thermo exploits and making levels completely un-loadable, whether Mm does it on purpose or not.

Doopz
03-11-2010, 09:43 PM
wow - ok I know I won't be trying this but I'm glad someone is and if people can make this work (and it sure looks like they can) I'm really looking forward to bigger and more complex levels.

Oh yeah me to! I'm now waiting for a calculator that can do adding, subtracting, multiplication, division and lets stick in maybe a bit of decimals and powers and ooh how about pi? To far? :p

ladylyn1
03-11-2010, 10:11 PM
I've done a little bit of experimenting and im now going to publish Planet X with the extended thermo... lets see if it works.

SLS10
03-11-2010, 10:35 PM
Not useful to me.

I prefer to create with limitations; too much space will result in levels that are unnecessarily long or needlessly complex. It's not for me.

Just follow the rules that they give you, guys. :B

Aya042
03-11-2010, 11:07 PM
Big kudos for figuring this out...

Y'know, despite the number of complicated ideas I had about this which didn't work (including several variations on SteveBigGuns' approach to emitter-based thermo-cheating), when I look back at it now, it seems so simple and obvious in retrospect, that I'm almost ashamed that it didn't occur to me ages ago.

To be fair, I've never built a level big enough to even vaguely tax the thermo, so it was never really a priority, and I've only recently discarded my hatred for emitters, since I've always found them to be painful to configure, and quirky in their operation.



...but I must say that this is the first exploitable glitch in lbp that I've been afraid to use.

I don't think you're alone there, and you probably should be a little cautious. This is a very new, and highly theoretical technique, which hasn't had enough time to go through many practical tests - hence all the warnings in the OP, but even without the thermo limitations, the game shouldn't let you create levels which crash the PS3.

So, if we assume that the reason that the thermo exists is to prevent you from creating levels which won't run smoothly, then it seems as if the thermo is a little too paranoid in some cases (e.g. materials and collected objects), and a little too forgiving in others (e.g. framerate slowdown with high object density, or when using certain lighting effects). At least now you have the choice to override its paranoia, when you believe it's appropriate to do so.



I've got a 3 part level that was really meant to be a 1 part, but I had to chop it into pieces and put them in seperate craters to continue building them... maybe I can try emitting them back together and see if it really works.

That's exactly the sort of thing I'm hoping will be possible. I'd be very interested to know if you have any success with that.



You're messing with the way the game engine deals with resource/memory allocation. As you said: "Playing with fire."

Well, maybe I was being a little over-dramatic. :)

With regards to memory allocation, I strongly suspect that there are hard limits in there somewhere, but that they're just much higher than the thermo normally allows. I mean, for all we know, maybe the development versions of LBP used by their level designers, actually have a "disable thermo" option somewhere.



I could see a future patch easily messing up thermo exploits and making levels completely un-loadable, whether Mm does it on purpose or not.

That's probably the greater concern, which is why I suggested building levels in the traditional way, but in a more modular fashion, where no single module ever overrides the thermo, and then assemble them using this method. Worst case scenario is you lose the assembled version, but you still have the individual parts - giving you the option to republish as a series of levels.

mistervista
03-11-2010, 11:17 PM
I don't think you're alone there, and you probably should be a little cautious. This is a very new, and highly theoretical technique, which hasn't had enough time to go through many practical tests - hence all the warnings in the OP, but even without the thermo limitations, the game shouldn't let you create levels which crash the PS3.

Unfortunately that last part is incorrect. I can tell you from experience that the game absolutely does do that. I have been in levels that do crash my PS3 every time. Infact my friend Alvaro is doing a new level as we speak and he's invited me into it twice and both times it's crashed both of our systems. I have since asked him never to invite me in that level again as I've only recently had the YLOD and I don't want it happening again.

comphermc
03-11-2010, 11:20 PM
Lol. Tomorrow I'm going to try exactly what you suggested... tacking together Aperture Science 1 and 2. If I can pull it off and it still works, that would be incredible. Wow, that level would be long!

:p

Aya042
03-11-2010, 11:38 PM
...the game shouldn't let you create levels which crash the PS3.Unfortunately that last part is incorrect. I can tell you from experience that the game absolutely does do that.

I said "shouldn't" not "doesn't". Every game has bugs in it, and I know of at least one method which is guaranteed to crash LBP every time. Point is, I've exploited this glitch in a number of cases and suffered no adverse effects, and, conversely, I've exploited no glitches at all, and suffered very adverse effects, such as major profile corruption.



Tomorrow I'm going to try exactly what you suggested... tacking together Aperture Science 1 and 2. If I can pull it off and it still works, that would be incredible. Wow, that level would be long!

If you can pull it off, it would indeed be awesome. Let me know how you get on with that.

AlvaroShiokawa
03-11-2010, 11:51 PM
Wow, interesting discovery you did :)! Thank you very much for sharing this knowledge.

Indeed the possibilities this thermo trick gives us are vast, making us tempted to do lots of stuff.

One can only hope he / she doesn't go overboard with this trick as consequences could be bad.

Incinerator22
03-12-2010, 12:11 AM
Rename the thread:

How To Bit**-Slap The Thermo :p

This is unbelievable! I better make use of it quickly before it gets patched and haunts me forever...

rtm223
03-12-2010, 12:17 AM
Anyway, the thing that really makes me nervous is that this isn't like other glitches: you're not getting a material that's a combination of others or sticking an object in a layer it shouldn't be able to go. You're messing with the way the game engine deals with resource/memory allocation. As you said: "Playing with fire." While I wouldn't expect a future patch to ruin levels with 3d glitched stuff or material glitched stuff, I could see a future patch easily messing up thermo exploits and making levels completely un-loadable, whether Mm does it on purpose or not.

Hmmm, they seem to make a point of preventing people from creating the glitch, rather than preventing already glitched objects from being broken. So for example, a sensible patch, based upon the approach that MM seem to take would be to alter the code so that the disassoiation from the emitter occurs WHEN you change te object in the emitter. This would leave existing levels using the exploit working fine, but prevent it from being used in the future.

Similarly, for the other variant, force the disassociation when someone edits any part of the object linked to the emitter.

I'm still just as wary as you are about this, I'm just saying it would be perfectly possible to patch this in such a way that it wouldn't break existing levels. I'd still caution people from using it for many many different reasons though!

Sehven
03-12-2010, 01:15 AM
Yes, but that only applies if the patch is a deliberate attempt to fix this glitch. There's always the possibility (at least I think there is: I don't know much about game code) that a future update just might happen to change the way memory allocation (or whatever else is involved in the limits set by the game) works in a subtle way that one wouldn't notice in most levels, but could completely ruin overloaded levels. Kind of like how leerdammer changed the way that save data works, it's possible that a future update could change how the thermometer works.

I admit that I find it unlikely... but it's enough of a possibility that I'd be wary of spending weeks or months on a level using this particular exploit. As Aya said, though, levels can be designed modularly and kept in separate craters so you don't lose everything if that happens, but it would be a shame to lose all the plays/hearts/comments of a published level if it were to happen.

Anyway, you (Rtm) and Aya are pretty level-headed and seen to have a very good grasp on logic (like actual logic... as well as lbp logic) so I'm sure you'll do alright with the glitch. I just don't think I'll be making extensive use of it.... might be fun to go back and make my "Starfighter" level longer, though: the thermo forced me to cut it way shorter than I originally planned, and I could probably build a whole new level with the existing tools in a relatively short amount of time.

comphermc
03-12-2010, 02:12 AM
I played around a bit with Morgana and Jwwphotos earlier, trying to exploit the thermometer as much as we could. Our testing was far from exhaustive, but when we really started to load up on the objects in the level (mind you, the thermo says it is nearly empty), the framerate dipped, but nothing ceased to work.

Then we proceeded to fill the level with non-emitted, traditional complicated stuffs. When we maxed this out, it wouldn't allow us to place anymore, while giving the "this object is too complex" message that you get when a shape cannot be cut into anymore. I think this was mentioned already, but it's interesting. At any rate, once this was finished, we started deleting the emitters. The thermo spiked each time we did this, and eventually overheated. Like I said, this was not exhuastive, and there were 3 of us just screwing around, so I'm not sure how much beyond the limit we had gotten.

---

As for my Aperture Science Redux... I ran into a little niggle. Both levels are very horizontal, and run completely left-to-right. fitting them seamlessly won't work without a redesign. Perhaps it's that time, eh?

I will, in the very least, attempt to fit both levels into a single one, albeit not necessarily in working order.

Littlebigdude805
03-12-2010, 02:44 AM
how to seriously blow up your ps3...thanks...alot :kz:

lol jk

you can always just put one ontop of the other and just have the player teleported to the start of the second half once they are finished with the first :D

rtm223
03-12-2010, 08:01 AM
I played around a bit with Morgana and Jwwphotos earlier, trying to exploit the thermometer as much as we could. Our testing was far from exhaustive, but when we really started to load up on the objects in the level (mind you, the thermo says it is nearly empty), the framerate dipped, but nothing ceased to work.

Well this sounds about right really. You are pushing the engine and so it can't get everything done in realtime, so you lag. At least this is a nice indicator. You can push things and the game communicates something back to you before breaking :)

Any idea roughly how much you fit into a level? And littlebigdude has a point, if initially this is just for the purposes of testing, then just place them above each other and add a teleporter to begin with.

Aya042
03-12-2010, 11:00 AM
...it's enough of a possibility that I'd be wary of spending weeks or months on a level using this particular exploit. As Aya said, though, levels can be designed modularly and kept in separate craters so you don't lose everything if that happens, but it would be a shame to lose all the plays/hearts/comments of a published level if it were to happen.

A valid concern, although as rtm pointed out, MM have done a pretty good job (unlike Sony Cambridge with the infamous Strawberry Cheesecake update :p) of ensuring that updates to the game don't ruin existing levels, but merely prevent you from using certain glitches in the future.



Anyway, you (Rtm) and Aya are pretty level-headed and seen to have a very good grasp on logic (like actual logic... as well as lbp logic) so I'm sure you'll do alright with the glitch.

I probably won't even use it myself, since I generally don't tend to build large levels (or indeed any levels at all). Frankly, the main reason I attempted to find a better way to cheat the thermo was because comphy kinda challenged me to, and I always enjoy a good challenge. :)

As for rtm, he's already suggested that he won't risk using this on SS redux, and I don't blame him. He's clearly spent a long time building that level, and would be extremely annoyed if he finds he's unable to edit it after the next patch.



Our testing was far from exhaustive, but when we really started to load up on the objects in the level (mind you, the thermo says it is nearly empty), the framerate dipped, but nothing ceased to work.

Pretty much the same results I got.



Then we proceeded to fill the level with non-emitted, traditional complicated stuffs. When we maxed this out, it wouldn't allow us to place anymore, while giving the "this object is too complex" message that you get when a shape cannot be cut into anymore.

Interesting. With the previous technique, I started getting this message long before the thermo reached the top. I haven't tried it with the new one yet.



As for my Aperture Science Redux... I ran into a little niggle. Both levels are very horizontal, and run completely left-to-right. fitting them seamlessly won't work without a redesign.

Hah! I was wondering if that might be the case, but I assumed you'd already taken that into account. :)



Well this sounds about right really. You are pushing the engine and so it can't get everything done in realtime, so you lag.

That sort of behaviour I was expecting, after all, you get that without using this 'hack', like when the game briefly pauses with long emitter chains.

I've done a bit of games programming before, although nothing as complicated as LBP. With a 'simulation' game like LBP, there's generally two 'expensive' parts: the simulation engine, and the rendering engine. The difference between the two is that the simulation engine has to consider every active object in the whole level on each simulation tick, whereas the rendering engine only has to worry about what is actually visible on the screen, although it's still much more expensive than the simulation engine. This will almost certainly be the reason why:-


it won't let you put many objects close together
it won't let you zoom out the camera particularly far


The more interesting point is that neither of the two engines use all that much memory, they're just highly CPU-intensive, so as you continue to increase the number of objects in the level, it will just slow down. Generally you only crash the system when you either run out of memory (which with virtual memory is very difficult to do), or your code just sucks (which is far more common). :)

The other symptom I've seen, where objects fail to render, might actually be a limitation of the PS3's underlying graphics API. The code says to the API, "here's all the polygons I want you to draw on this frame", and eventually the API replies with "that's too many, I can't do any more". Other games (e.g. GTA4) work around this limitation by reducing the detail as you zoom out, but LBP seemingly doesn't do this, presumably because you can't zoom out that far in play mode, or even in create mode.

The problem with the thermo, is that it always considers the worst case scenario, e.g. its limitation of 1400-ish moving objects at once is based on what it can reasonably handle in the worst case, i.e. where they're all moving at the same time. In a real level, however, this isn't the case. Generally the player will be confined to a single part of a large level, meaning that it's okay to have 14,000 moving objects, as long as only 10% of them are moving at any particular time.

This is why I believe that the game can quite easily handle much more than the thermo will let you, and as long as know why the limitations exist, you should be able to figure out when it's appropriate to exceed them.

comphermc
03-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Any idea roughly how much you fit into a level? And littlebigdude has a point, if initially this is just for the purposes of testing, then just place them above each other and add a teleporter to begin with.

Well, we had a collection of various objects that took up nearly all of the thermometer and then captured them in big chunks. We emitted them as expected and nullified the thermo. The we began placing different complicated objects, but I don't recall exactly what happened. I think we got about halfway to 3/4 before getting the the message again. I think my the test I'm about to run will be more conclusive.


Interesting. With the previous technique, I started getting this message long before the thermo reached the top. I haven't tried it with the new one yet.

Ah, I'm not sure I was clear. We also did not max out the visual thermometer. I'd say half to 3/4.

rtm223
03-12-2010, 12:19 PM
well my testing was purely on complex shapes and as far as I could tell, the warning message came in at the point that you would normally have filled out the visible thermo. even though it was still empty. I don't know what the other thermos are doing and whether they would stop you placing new stuff, it's feasible that they wouldn't...

Ungreth
03-12-2010, 12:52 PM
So using this technique you could emit an entire level into an empty space, and as long as you don't delete that emitter then the thermo won't rise?

No way...there's gotta be a catch!

javi haguse
03-12-2010, 01:13 PM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13894&d=1268340876
Ps. Javi move out of the way your heads too big! :D

He had me count all the cables.. or else he would use his ninja moves on me :/

comphermc
03-12-2010, 01:30 PM
Lol. Just got all three Aperture Science level into one. Things started to go funny. I invited Aya. Boom!

Rebooting now.

The level was 1780 KB when backed up.

Edit: that level is completely inaccessible. Not from Play/Create. Can't even publish without a hang. :(

jwwphotos
03-12-2010, 01:41 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but doing things this way may simply be out of the scope of what normally reports themo to us. Like it is being assigned to another area in memory that isn't currently being inspected to be reported via the thermometer. It might be as has been speculated before that, max thermo has always had a bit more headroom and this technique is a way to get a few more hidden bits in past the thermo reporting. So you might get a bit more by doing this, but I think the end result would be the same if you went too far as the level will lag horribly and cause all sorts of issues. Sneaking a few extra minor bits in like Comph did with his bubbles though worked fine. ...well... except that I keep having to play it again to up my score. ;)

As far as our testing last night, I think it would be an interesting experiment to actually save and try to come in via play mode to see if the level would have ran rather that in play only while in create. It might be that we could figure out what a safe level above full actually is, though I am sure it also depends on which thermo(s) are maxed out prior to trying this technique.

comphermc
03-12-2010, 01:49 PM
Sorry, Jww. Missed your post. Yeah, I can't even publish the level, so it has exceeded something. As I was telling Aya before hanging, when I put part 3 in, all of the materials from it went invisible. Connectors, Keys, and Magic Mouths were there, but no material. It looked wild.

BlahYourHamster
03-12-2010, 02:14 PM
Y'know... The thermo is there for a reason, Cheating it will inevitably cause laggy levels... Which is bad for everyone... =/

Aya042
03-12-2010, 02:21 PM
Edit: that level is completely inaccessible. Not from Play/Create. Can't even publish without a hang. :(

Bear in mind, when you first got booted to the XMB, it might've left the level in a corrupted state, so it's now useless.

It sounded as if things were okay when you just put together the first two parts, so if that works, then it's better than nothing.

Edit: Okay. I just successfully published a level which uses twice the normal thermo allowance, mostly in the collected objects thermo. It's also very high-density, and uses nearly 2000 LEDs and 2000 mag switches. I also get rendering problems in create mode, but I've had those without cheating the thermo. Anyways, it looks and plays just fine in play mode. 469KB when saved FWIW.

YEAH_NAH
03-12-2010, 10:32 PM
the thermo is there for a reason, so the game doesnt CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doopz
03-12-2010, 10:39 PM
Weird, I was just playing around with this and I used those compression bombs that take up like loads of the thermo up, and did this and got to about 4X the amount of thermo you should be able to use but it didn't crash and wasn't really any more laggy then at normal thermo... Apart from the fact I had no face....

Incinerator22
03-13-2010, 01:31 AM
No double aperture science then? Roughly about how much thermo is possible before things get trippy?

comphermc
03-13-2010, 01:35 AM
No double aperture science then? Roughly about how much thermo is possible before things get trippy?

After about x2 thermometer, the crap hit the fan. Before that, it was just framerate drops. Methinks I was running into memory issues beyond that, and so it wasn't able to handle the new materials I placed in the level.

To be honest, I don't want to faff too much with putting both into a single level just yet. Not until I've come to understand the process a little more completely. As a side not, mrsupercomputer and I were able to do some awesome stuff with ZV2 that would not have been possible. I hope he decides to publish it anew with the changes, once we get them worked out. Less than 3000 plays on a level that awesome? C'mon, really?

Incinerator22
03-13-2010, 01:39 AM
Thanks.

Also, Hibbsi91 says (well not really, but I'll force him to) that he's gonna try to add division to his calculator. :D

Hibbsi
03-13-2010, 02:41 AM
Haha, thanks Incinerator. Here's a challenge for you all: figure out how to exploit this thermometer-cheating in a stable and easily usable way, and I'll add division to the calculator. I think that it's too dark, so I'm about to give it a facelift anyway. I'm taking a break from PS3 for a little bit, however, because I NEED to actually do my schoolwork. Cause I'm, you know, graduating and then going to college and all. I think a guy I know, who is a programmer and developer in biometrics and informatics (and also plays LBP, after he met me and my calculator lol), is going to get me an internship at Northrop Grumman, which I think is kind of a big deal, so I have that to work toward. So, get on it guys! :p

comphermc
03-13-2010, 04:24 AM
Well, good news, Hibbsi. It is stable for quite a while beyond what you have so far. I can't say anything for what your framerate would do, but it really depends on how much more you need to add. In theory you can add infinite content to the level, but here are no guarantees that it won't kerplode your ps3.

Hibbsi
03-13-2010, 03:33 PM
After I come back from my break away from my PS3, I'll get to it. In the meantime, I'll figure out the fastest way to calculate quotients and remainders. Shouldn't be too hard, actually, because binary is really easy to manipulate.

To be continued in a week or two!

moonwire
03-17-2010, 04:58 PM
Hmmm, this is something I will try on my next level, after publishing the one I am working with now...

BTW, do anyone here know how to get started with the road leading to game programming, I just get the feeling of that this would be the right place to ask. It must be the picture of RTMs logic with over a million connections...

:p

YEAH_NAH
03-18-2010, 08:03 AM
Weird, I was just playing around with this and I used those compression bombs that take up like loads of the thermo up, and did this and got to about 4X the amount of thermo you should be able to use but it didn't crash and wasn't really any more laggy then at normal thermo... Apart from the fact I had no face....
okay? i was just saying wat mm said one their thremo vid :)

clarkdef
03-20-2010, 10:19 AM
Wow this is a fantastic glitch, you guys just cant get greedy with it. In other words dont go 2x your levels, maybe just 50% at the most.

clarkdef
03-22-2010, 06:40 AM
Ok this glitch is doing weird things to my level, it keeps falling apart in areas and glueing itself back together as a mangled mess. Truly weird???

Incinerator22
03-22-2010, 08:10 PM
Lol. I made a 1600 piece bomb (normal max is about 1000-1300), and I've snuck it into several peoples' levels already XD.

Chamion B
03-24-2010, 05:50 PM
Oh yeah me to! I'm now waiting for a calculator that can do adding, subtracting, multiplication, division and lets stick in maybe a bit of decimals and powers and ooh how about pi? To far? :p

I'll see what I can do.

Emogotsaone
03-24-2010, 08:24 PM
Holy crap! It worked, I was able to cleanly add 21 more bubbles to level. Wow, awesome!

I'm sorry to bother your beliefs but crap is not holy in my religion. On the other hand may i see a picture of this whole dark matter, hand switch, and emitter thing?

RoseScythe
03-29-2010, 10:35 PM
This is pretty crazy. I was able to emit my entire Dead Memories Level 3 times before running out of room to put it. Thermo never jumped beyond 3 bars.

It played perfectly with no visible lag.

comphermc
03-29-2010, 10:53 PM
Well, since it was bumped a little, I thought I'd add something and ask something.

On the one hand, copying an object that has been emitted, along with the emitter it came from, and then pasting it into a new level... does not sever the connection between emitter and emitted object. I was using the new one-time demitter in Morgana's new level, but we set the whole thing up in a separate level. I also used the thermo cheat, in that the emitter was set to replace a complicated set of objects with a dark matter square. Much to my surprise, everything worked as expected, even after copying the set over to the actual level.

My question is, assuming that someone already knows the answer, does the thermo saving properties of the emitter glitch carry over when copied in this manner? I didn't do testing in case someone had already done it for me. This would be good news, if this is the case, as it would mean easier exploitation of the thermometer near the end of level creation (set it all up in a blank level and copy it over).

Anyone?

Incinerator22
03-30-2010, 04:00 AM
Anyone?

If I'm reading you correctly, the glitch stops if you capture it and place it in a new level.

comphermc
03-30-2010, 03:43 PM
No... I was asking if it didn't stop. I copied a demitter over to a new level, and it still worked, even after the original object was emitted.

Sehven
03-31-2010, 08:32 AM
This may not be the right place to ask, but can you emit an object with its own demitter? What I mean is, say I wanted to emit a vehicle. So I stick an emitter on a bit of dark matter, emit the vehicle, then change the emitter's output to a tiny square of dm or gas or something. Take the emitter off the dm and stick it on the vehicle and tie in whatever switch is meant to kill the vehicle to that emitter. That should all work: so far so good. Can you then capture that vehicle and emit it while keeping its onboard demitter working?

[edit] Just tried it out. Didn't work. The demitter worked fine when I moved it to the vehicle and I was even able to add a grab switch on the vehicle to trigger it. But when I captured it, it wouldn't work whether I placed it directly from my popit or emitted it.

Littlebigdude805
04-02-2010, 03:17 AM
ok i need to fit this boss battle in to a level and need a few more bars to spare to complete.. i made the object in a seperate level, captured, but i couldnt emit the object into the new level because setting the emitter to emit this object overheated the thermo. so i tried emitting it in its original level, and got its thermo down to around none, captured the emitter and the object, but still when i place it into the new level it takes as much thermo as just placing it out of the bag. please help :O

Aya042
04-02-2010, 03:29 AM
i couldnt emit the object into the new level because setting the emitter to emit this object overheated the thermo.

Yeah. You have to have enough thermo to be able to place it in the first place. You'll have to temporarily delete something else from the level.

PoD CREW
04-04-2010, 04:06 AM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13894&d=1268340876

:eek: 1.21 GIGAWATTS!? :eek:

smasher
04-04-2010, 08:36 PM
I'm using this in my latest level. I just wanted to say thanks Aya042. Without this I wouldn't have gotten everything in. I've probably got close to a full thermo and a quarter used. I keep waiting for it to come crashing down, but so far so good! :)
Thanks!!

ShiftyDog
04-06-2010, 03:22 PM
hey, i didn't tried this out. but if you did this method, does the thermo rise?

like i made a bomb shell with loads of tiny impact explosives that normaly filled up the thermo at the top. after i did that method, does the thermo rise?

Aya042
04-06-2010, 04:00 PM
hey, i didn't tried this out. but if you did this method, does the thermo rise?

Umm. Maybe if you tried it out? ;)

Objects emitted in play mode will still count towards the thermo, but if you follow the method described, then you can get anything for free in create mode.

Fenderjt
04-06-2010, 04:06 PM
I tried this and it worked! Well done Aya, your very clever! ;)

ShiftyDog
04-06-2010, 06:41 PM
i don't get it:confused:

Jrange378
04-07-2010, 03:03 AM
Thanks for this! Now i can create with as much detail as i want! Im gonna try to blow the top off the thermo to really test it.

Doopz
04-07-2010, 08:22 PM
I just made a discovery which you may want to look out for. If you really overheat the thermo using this, part of the level will just disappear. Yes, it will literally disappear, just warning in case someone really tries to overheat it.

RoharDragontamer
04-07-2010, 08:31 PM
Thanks for this! Now i can create with as much detail as i want! Im gonna try to blow the top off the thermo to really test it.

You really can't create as much detail as you want, as this "trick" is used to help defeat a safety mechanism Mm put in place to keep the PS3 from CRASHING (or at least severely lagging) in game play. You WILL have all or parts of your level break if you use this trick to its ultimate extreme. Like anything else, it should be used with care, and tested heavily before you publish as having your level crash consoles is not a good thing.

Jrange378
04-08-2010, 08:47 PM
You really can't create as much detail as you want, as this "trick" is used to help defeat a safety mechanism Mm put in place to keep the PS3 from CRASHING (or at least severely lagging) in game play. You WILL have all or parts of your level break if you use this trick to its ultimate extreme. Like anything else, it should be used with care, and tested heavily before you publish as having your level crash consoles is not a good thing.

Well im not gonna try to us 3x the normal amount of thermo or anything. I was was going to but i read through the thread and came to the conclusion that 1 and 1/2 thermo is the max you should go at the most. A couple extra ticks of thermo goes 1000 miles though.

Oddmania
04-09-2010, 05:35 PM
You are a genius. An outstanding genius ! :hero:

I guess my PS3 would explode if I did this with a whole level (let's be realistic, your second tip is probably true) but this may work with smaller things.

RickRock_777
04-12-2010, 01:50 AM
Has anyone determined if there is a file size limitation when publishing to an LBP Server? I'm wondering, if after packing in as much as I can, will I be able to publish the level.

Also, thanks for the info Aya042...very cool find indeed.

Rick :)

Aya042
04-12-2010, 03:56 AM
Has anyone determined if there is a file size limitation when publishing to an LBP Server? I'm wondering, if after packing in as much as I can, will I be able to publish the level.

I haven't tested if there's a maximum file size, but typically this technique will make very little difference to size of the level file.

As far as I'm aware, the objects with the highest file-size to thermo ratio are prize bubbles containing complex custom objects. I suspect custom stickers probably take up the most space, so if you want to test the maximum file size, something like a level filled with prize bubbles, each of which contains an object with as many unique custom stickers as possible.

Mennenth
04-18-2010, 05:40 PM
Since I'm away from the ps3 for roughly another week, I have a question about this method.

If I put a whole bunch of emitters on a single dark matter block, each emitter set to emit something with decent complexity (say 10 emitters each set to emit something that takes a little less than a full small notch) normally, then captured that block of emitters, then did the method, would the thermo saving properties of tricking the "big" emitter also "trick" the emitters that were emitted?

I know this goes onto really thin ice, but for my situation I need to be able to emit an incredible amount of stuff, but only one thing is ever emitted at a time (and everything is emitted off screen).

springs86
04-18-2010, 05:54 PM
This sounds like something i need to try, i was making a co op level and it filled like 2/3 of the way in

Aya042
04-18-2010, 06:08 PM
If I put a whole bunch of emitters on a single dark matter block, each emitter set to emit something with decent complexity (say 10 emitters each set to emit something that takes a little less than a full small notch) normally, then captured that block of emitters, then did the method, would the thermo saving properties of tricking the "big" emitter also "trick" the emitters that were emitted?

If I'm understanding correctly, then the answer is "yes".

Mennenth
04-18-2010, 06:23 PM
Great.
Basically, I want to emit a block with a whole bunch of emitters on it. Those emitters need to work normally (as in, the objects get emitted, and then a certain amount of time later it disappears), so I cant do the trick on them (unless I'm misunderstanding the trick). But if I emitted the entire block using the trick, then I could get all of those emitters to take up zilch on the thermo.

Looking back on my question, it actually makes sense that it would drop the thermo. If comphermc and others are emitting entire levels this way (which I assume also have emitters in them) and benefiting, no reason I wouldn't benefit just the same.

Aya042
04-18-2010, 07:09 PM
Looking back on my question, it actually makes sense that it would drop the thermo.

Well, I wouldn't say that it was obviously true, since in many cases, the objects emitted in play mode might only represent a very small fraction of the total thermo usage for the level, in which case it wouldn't matter.

In fact I had previously stated that it wouldn't work (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?25137-Directional-Incrementation-Logic-Board&p=436706#post436706), but, after testing, it turns out I was wrong (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?25137-Directional-Incrementation-Logic-Board&p=436754#post436754), and it works just fine.

Anyways. Good luck with your level. :)

Mennenth
04-19-2010, 06:09 AM
Well, I wouldn't say that it was obviously true, since in many cases, the objects emitted in play mode might only represent a very small fraction of the total thermo usage for the level, in which case it wouldn't matter.

In fact I had previously stated that it wouldn't work (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?25137-Directional-Incrementation-Logic-Board&p=436706#post436706), but, after testing, it turns out I was wrong (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?25137-Directional-Incrementation-Logic-Board&p=436754#post436754), and it works just fine.


Insanity. Pure insanity.
My 'levels' that I've been working on are player pianos. I basically designed a MIDI system to drive the piano, which runs off of dark matter blocks representing the notes. Counting in the piano and logic it required, I calculated I'd only ever be able to put roughly 2200 notes into a single level. That would typically be enough for most songs, but my ambitions have been aimed a lot higher. From my understanding, since I only need 1 set of notes (approx. 150-200 dark matter blocks) emitted at a time, that cap of 2200 notes gets blown to bits by fooling a single emitter.



Anyways. Good luck with your level. :)

Thanks!
I currently can't work on the songs as I don't have the ps3, but when I get it back hopefully this weekend I'm planning an lbp marathon. It sucks, though. Since I read this thread earlier, my head has been reeling with possibilities I've been itching to try, and no ps3. :(

Aya042
04-19-2010, 09:44 AM
From my understanding, since I only need 1 set of notes (approx. 150-200 dark matter blocks) emitted at a time, that cap of 2200 notes gets blown to bits by fooling a single emitter.

You might be interested in reading through this thread (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?19991-The-Music-Level-Machine) where there was previously some discussion on cheating the thermo to make longer pieces of music, although it's very near the end of the thread. Also you might like to compare your method with the one used in that level.

From my experiments with this technique, I found that exceeding the usual limit of mag keys/switches was less problematic than some of the other limits in the game.

Generally speaking it's the rendering, not the simulation, which is the most CPU-intensive, so it's much safer to break the limit of objects which aren't visible in play more than those which are. You may still have problems in create mode, however, I found that the game slows down quite a bit when there's lots of mag keys/switches in a small area of the screen.

As always, play it safe, and make regular backups of your level and/or profile, particularly when using this technique, just in case something bad should happen.

Mennenth
04-19-2010, 06:43 PM
Reading through that thread, it sounds like his machine functions incredibly similar to my first player piano, U.N. Owen Was Her?
Its still hanging out on the servers, just search my psn. It was also recorded by JHKThree a couple of days after I posted to the psn, here is a link to the youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixDkgcB9VHA

v1 used several large block of cardboard riddled with mag keys to form the sheet music, which were then emitted and rolled along a track to the reader bar. Everything was set up in pitch reference, so a mag key on the bottom of the cardboard represented bottom C while the one at the top represented top C, and then of course everything in between. The reader bar had mag switches hooked up to the pistons that controlled the piano keys.

I found this method was inadequate. That song alone causes the collected objects thermo to start screaming, so I thought of a new idea which I have run into some problems with and have been working out kinks over the months. The new v2 method uses a 2 small unit tall, thick layer of wood as a pin. This pin has an inverted mag switch at the bottom, and a sprung bolt at the top attaches it to a thin layer of wood that is behind the pin. On that thin layer is also a mag key positioned to be directly under the switch. The reader bar moves instead of the music. This time, the sheet music is going to be represented by dark matter. When the reader bar pushes the pins into dark matter, they move aside, triggering the mag switchs, and activating those pistons/notes. Again, everything is in pitch reference, so the bottom pin is for bottom C, etc.

On the note of rendering, all the mechanisms to make the piano play are off screen, so no issues there.

I wish I had the ps3 still. I'd love to play his levels and see what all he has done. I've been puzzling non-stop for quite a while on how to solve some issues. Namely, the pins going all wonky and activating notes more then once, spinning out of control activating the entire reader bar, and eventually breaking. I believe I've come up with a solution, but again no ps3.

Richasackboy
05-08-2010, 10:39 PM
Oh yum.

Yumyumyumyum.
This will be great! I can make my long level even longer! ^.^
Thanks for this, Aya!

warlord_evil
06-05-2010, 12:33 AM
Have you ever thought about using this glitch to reproduce the transparent stickers glitch?

Aya042
06-05-2010, 12:48 AM
Have you ever thought about using this glitch to reproduce the transparent stickers glitch?

Not this one, but the other one, as I mentioned in this post (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?23674-How-To-Cheat-The-Thermo&p=410685&viewfull=1#post410685), but I never had any success.

Jrange378
06-23-2010, 06:50 PM
Im about 70% into a level im making using this glitch but hit a weird snag that i dont think is in your "Things you cant do" list. For some reason my thermo jumps when i try to emit a certain object thats already in my level. Its just two circles attached by a string. I want to have the emitter emit them when you press a button but as soon as i click x on where i want the emiter to emit it the thermo jumps. Any reason why this might happen?

Aya042
06-23-2010, 07:25 PM
I want to have the emitter emit them when you press a button but as soon as i click x on where i want the emiter to emit it the thermo jumps. Any reason why this might happen?

Umm. The thermo is supposed to jump when you set an emitter to emit something. It only goes back down when you set the same emitter to emit DM instead.

I subsequently discovered that emitter chaining retains the thermo savings, so if you want to emit something during gameplay, but not pay for it, then emit that emitter from another emitter first, then set the first emitter to emit DM.

On an unrelated matter, although I already mentioned in the OP that levels made using this technique might not work on subsequent patchlevels of LBP (which so far hasn't been an issue), there's a very strong possibility that these levels won't work on LBP2.

Jrange378
06-23-2010, 10:18 PM
Umm. The thermo is supposed to jump when you set an emitter to emit something. It only goes back down when you set the same emitter to emit DM instead.

I subsequently discovered that emitter chaining retains the thermo savings, so if you want to emit something during gameplay, but not pay for it, then emit that emitter from another emitter first, then set the first emitter to emit DM.

On an unrelated matter, although I already mentioned in the OP that levels made using this technique might not work on subsequent patchlevels of LBP (which so far hasn't been an issue), there's a very strong possibility that these levels won't work on LBP2.

I know the thermo jumps when you emit something. I should have been more clear. I used this glitch on my whole level to get more out of the thermo. But for some reason the thermo would jump from 0 to overheat just by emitting the two circles one time. I figured it out though, it seems it was the object i was emitting that was breaking assocition with the emitter somehow. Thanks anyways.

AfterBurner9901
06-25-2010, 11:24 PM
Ah, the ol' passing of the baton of blame. Nice.

---

Seriously, though. Are you rain man? Quick, how many toothpicks?

http://luciezook.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/l_square-toothpicks.jpg

theres 6 lol :p

Richasackboy
06-26-2010, 03:59 PM
Aya answered that he only sees 2500 pixels (as the dimensions of the image comphermc posted were 250px x 250px, when multiplied, you get 2500 pixels). Technically, there aren't any toothpicks, because toothpicks should actually take up physical space in order for them to be actual toothpicks. ;)

Also, I used the thermo cheat on some big thermo heavy trees in my bg, and on the introductory part of my level. Saved my life... Thanks loads for this, Aya (once again)!

Tynamite
07-06-2010, 08:13 PM
how does this glitch effect my ps3s life, game play, and loading time? i heard that the infinite thermo (i guess thats what they call it) is bad for your ps3. i have a 80 gig ps3 fat from december 2008 (2 USB port one)

Aya042
07-06-2010, 09:36 PM
how does this glitch effect my ps3s life, game play, and loading time? i heard that the infinite thermo (i guess thats what they call it) is bad for your ps3. i have a 80 gig ps3 fat from december 2008 (2 USB port one)

It can theoretically crash the PS3, but so can anything. If you're concerned about your PS3 dying (e.g. YLOD), then it probably will at some point - the older PS3s are pretty much guaranteed to fail eventually, but more likely from an FPS game than LBP.

Tynamite
07-08-2010, 08:01 PM
It can theoretically crash the PS3, but so can anything. If you're concerned about your PS3 dying (e.g. YLOD), then it probably will at some point - the older PS3s are pretty much guaranteed to fail eventually, but more likely from an FPS game than LBP.

I understand that, but what i am asking is how does the glitch affect my ps3, lag, and load time. i dont want to over due the glitch. how do i know when not to use the glitch?

comphermc
07-08-2010, 08:54 PM
There's no right answer as to how much to use it. It's mostly uncharted territory. SteveBigGuns used it heavily in his new level, but it lags like nothing else. It's really up to you.

Aya042
07-08-2010, 10:31 PM
Pretty much what comph said. It's mostly a case of trial and error. If you try to use it too much, things will start slowing down, or objects will fail to render. Most of these symptoms have been discussed already, earlier in the thread.

Tynamite
07-08-2010, 11:13 PM
question:
does what you emit = to a single piece of dark matter or is it just thinking their is one piece of dark matter when really their is more? if its option two, you will will be able to go way past the limit and kill your ps3.

Aya042
07-09-2010, 12:23 AM
if its option two, you will will be able to go way past the limit and kill your ps3.

Correct. There is a warning to that effect in the first post if you'd care to read it.

eagerneph
07-09-2010, 02:29 AM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13894&d=1268340876
I seriously could not be bothered... I avoid logic any more difficult than Logicpack beginner... That's my main weakness. So this looks freaky as heck to me. I don't know how you find it fun...
Ps. Javi move out of the way your heads too big! :D

Nice job Aya.

Woah, thats alot of wires there. I don't think I get scared when I see stuff like that. Rather...I get excited. :p

Tynamite
07-09-2010, 02:29 AM
Correct. There is a warning to that effect in the first post if you'd care to read it.

i must of read over. i even re-read it before i posted.

Ryhas
07-20-2010, 09:37 PM
So...

I have quite a few trees in three of the glitched background layers. They take up a bit under 1/2 the thermo, and that's space I would like to have. Would it be possible to cheat the thermo for at least some of them AND get them in the glitched background layers?

Aya042
07-20-2010, 09:47 PM
I have quite a few trees in three of the glitched background layers. They take up a bit under 1/2 the thermo, and that's space I would like to have. Would it be possible to cheat the thermo for at least some of them AND get them in the glitched background layers?

Assuming you get the trees into the background using an emitter, you could emit them all into the background (using a single emitter), then tweak the emitter to emit DM.

I believe the process requires you to have a foreground object emitted at the same time, which, if you subsequently delete, will break the thermo savings, but you can make the foreground object out of dissolve, and dissolve it (or crush it) when you're done, and you should still retain the savings.

This is all theoretical, since, perhaps ironically, I don't tend to use these glitches myself. :)

Ryhas
07-20-2010, 10:24 PM
Assuming you get the trees into the background using an emitter, you could emit them all into the background (using a single emitter), then tweak the emitter to emit DM.

I believe the process requires you to have a foreground object emitted at the same time, which, if you subsequently delete, will break the thermo savings, but you can make the foreground object out of dissolve, and dissolve it (or crush it) when you're done, and you should still retain the savings.

This is all theoretical, since, perhaps ironically, I don't tend to use these glitches myself. :)

Thanks for the info, and I'm going to attempt to avoid tricking the thermo if I can at all. I just wanted to know if it was possible. At the moment, I'm cracking down on the creatures (there's one that takes up two notches, and there's three of them... so six freaking notches for three creatures.... yeah...).

Actually, now that I think about it, I'll be fine... I'm still within the thermo. I can potentially create the intro scene, which will be smaller, in another place and then trick the thermo with that. That would be much safer than with all those trees, I think.

Aya042
07-20-2010, 11:07 PM
Thanks for the info, and I'm going to attempt to avoid tricking the thermo if I can at all.

If you haven't already, read comphermc's Comprehensive Thermo Overview and Guide (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?16840-Comprehensive-Thermo-Overview-and-Guide), which contains lots of useful advice on how to best exploit the themometer without cheating, and only cheat if you absolutely have to.

Ryhas
07-20-2010, 11:33 PM
If you haven't already, read comphermc's Comprehensive Thermo Overview and Guide (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?16840-Comprehensive-Thermo-Overview-and-Guide), which contains lots of useful advice on how to best exploit the themometer without cheating, and only cheat if you absolutely have to.

Oh, very nice. I've read up on the thermo before, but this is much more in-depth and will help. Currently my level states I have "too many moving objects" which is simply not true... I think in editing my forest, I accidentally messed with my dark matter, thus creating the option for all the pieces of the forest to move.

In essence, it's just a bunch of trees copied over and over again, with just two materials, so it really shouldn't be taking so much thermo. This will help me narrow down the issue.

Strangepom
07-21-2010, 09:20 AM
just a small question... has anyone broken their PS3 yet and if so approx how much over the thermo limit did it take?

Incinerator22
07-21-2010, 11:04 AM
just a small question... has anyone broken their PS3 yet and if so approx how much over the thermo limit did it take?

It all depends. Steve_Big_Guns used this recently in a complex level and said his level used 135% of the thermo. Some people have reported that their PS3's kept crashing. It depends how many objects are in how big an area, the amount of different kinds of objects, and a lot of other factors. I'm working on a simple logic giveaway that has rows of switches, nothing too complex, just a lot of connectors, shapes, and switches. I glitched a counter that had a few hundred keys on it that normally uses a lot of thermo because of the way the thermo detects keys. The level is at about 110% thermo but the frame-rate and loading times are still normal and smooth because of the simplicity of the objects.

IIIDevoidIII
07-21-2010, 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by Strangepom
just a small question... has anyone broken their PS3 yet and if so approx how much over the thermo limit did it take?
I experimented with this and got to 220% of thermo and it got so laggy that it seemed like a zetro gravity chamber... I wouldn't advise thinking of going up that high.

RickRock_777
07-26-2010, 12:33 AM
Hi Aya042...

I have a bit of info to share. Doing Level 9 for LBPC The Game, we ran into serious thermo issues (very complex and lot's 'o' stuff), so I used your described technique for a Mech and a Boss I made, which accounted for approximately 40% of the total level thermo, had I placed them in the normal manner. This worked as you described, so thank you again for your tutorial. Interestingly, even though the thermo was held in check with this method, I was unable to add a structure my wife created for part of the level--the structure's total thermo being lower than the remaining thermo indicated on the thermometer. But thermo was not the issue this time, as the level had apparently reached it's maximum for complexity--i.e., complex shapes. Something for others to keep in mind if they plan to use this technique.

Rick :)

Aya042
07-26-2010, 02:43 AM
But thermo was not the issue this time, as the level had apparently reached it's maximum for complexity--i.e., complex shapes. Something for others to keep in mind if they plan to use this technique.

Once you hit the complex shapes limitation, you can still emit objects into the level, but you won't be able to corner edit them IIRC.

Jwei44
07-28-2010, 04:31 AM
So if I want to make more objects would I have to make a new emitter thing?

Aya042
07-28-2010, 01:21 PM
So if I want to make more objects would I have to make a new emitter thing?

Either that or you could probably reuse an existing one by increasing its Max Emitted At Once by one, but I haven't tested to see if there's any side-effects if you do it that way.

Fishrock123
08-02-2010, 02:29 AM
I haven't tested if there's a maximum file size, but typically this technique will make very little difference to size of the level file.

As far as I'm aware, the objects with the highest file-size to thermo ratio are prize bubbles containing complex custom objects. I suspect custom stickers probably take up the most space, so if you want to test the maximum file size, something like a level filled with prize bubbles, each of which contains an object with as many unique custom stickers as possible.

So far has no one tested this yet? Lol



Af for this thread's glitch, it is very interesting, but I'm usnsure I would ever want to use this.

It is in theory useful, but I think it's best use would be for some extreme logic levels, such as making bigger LBP LED screens

IStwisted
08-03-2010, 04:10 AM
one way to keep the lag down in play mode.
use mag switches instead of the grab switches so that you can demit objects/areas that are no longer needed. Tried it on OKINGO's new level (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?31910-Lost-in-Time-Specimen-Hunter)and it seems to have fixed lag issues. As you enter each new section the previous section is demited so it doesn't take up any more "play mode" thermo than that single peice of DM.

side note: it also fixed the trouble with magic mouths all goin crazy when someone new joins. Since they've all been demited they can't say nothin.

watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IyP9zXPRwk)

I3EN
08-03-2010, 04:17 AM
Wow thanx that worked beautifly great job

gevurah22
08-09-2010, 05:28 AM
Heh, I finally put this to use in an upcoming level, so thank you. Goodness does that save some space considering my mecha takes up about 40% of the thermo. ^^

Enjay
08-11-2010, 04:52 AM
Oh dear, I started out learning how to avoid distorting my level patches, and now look at me, planning to cheat the heat!!!

You're a bad influence on me, mister.

CYMBOL
08-14-2010, 10:33 PM
one way to keep the lag down in play mode.
use mag switches instead of the grab switches so that you can demit objects/areas that are no longer needed. Tried it on OKINGO's new level (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?31910-Lost-in-Time-Specimen-Hunter)and it seems to have fixed lag issues. As you enter each new section the previous section is demited so it doesn't take up any more "play mode" thermo than that single peice of DM.

side note: it also fixed the trouble with magic mouths all goin crazy when someone new joins. Since they've all been demited they can't say nothin.

watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IyP9zXPRwk)

How do you "demit" the object you emitted for free? Isn't it there indefinitely?

Obviously not since you are saying that you found a way around it - can anyone clarify/explain this to me?

And, is "Play lag" - is lag introduced into the level (regardless of connection, etc.) just by using the thermo cheat?

Please!

Thank you in advance!

IStwisted
08-14-2010, 10:54 PM
How do you "demit" the object you emitted for free? Isn't it there indefinitely?

You don't emit anything for free. There's always a cost.

You emit it once and replace the object (in the emitter) with a small dark matter triangle.

If you then set the max emited at once to one and trigger the next emit. Your cheated object disappears.

I just think it might help to demit (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?11861-Demitters-New-demitter-switch-added!!!-2010-03-10&highlight=demit)cheated areas. Especially if there are lots of moving parts or creatures or lights.




And, is "Play lag" - is lag introduced into the level (regardless of connection, etc.) just by using the thermo cheat?


Each PS3 has to load the entire level into some memory. I think you just reach the limits of what it can handle all at once.

CYMBOL
08-15-2010, 01:35 AM
You don't emit anything for free. There's always a cost.

You emit it once and replace the object (in the emitter) with a small dark matter triangle.

If you then set the max emited at once to one and trigger the next emit. Your cheated object disappears.

I just think it might help to demit (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?11861-Demitters-New-demitter-switch-added!!!-2010-03-10&highlight=demit)cheated areas. Especially if there are lots of moving parts or creatures or lights.



Each PS3 has to load the entire level into some memory. I think you just reach the limits of what it can handle all at once.


Aaaaah, got it. (Had to read it twice - but I got it. :p )

Thank you for the explaination and quick reply - I appreciate it.

Ok - on second thought - I played through RTM223's demitter levels - and I'm still not sure how I can use that on my level - not on the scale I wanted to work with.

My pieces are really big - so emitting "off screen" could potentially bump into something else.

And, hosestly, I still don't understand - emit my cheated structure (got it)- change it to the dark material (causing the thermo to go down), (got it) - but then changing it back to emit my original cheated structure. . . ?

I not getting something here. :confused:

Don't suppose one of you wizards would want to come into my level and see what I'm dealing with - and see if this is an option?

Somehow, this level got out of control - and there is really nothing I can delete - however, at this point, I don't even have enough room to come to an ending so I can continue ina "part 2.1" or something.

Very sad.

IStwisted
08-15-2010, 03:19 AM
You don't change it back. you just emit the dark matter.

As for emitting huge sections. You just have to plan ahead. Do a sight survey. Maybe place DM markers before hand to help. or have a friend fly around and help aim it.

It's always possible you're trying to put to much in. If it's that big you might think about splitting it into two seperate levels. You should still have all of the cheated pieces in your bag. It might help to start a blank level and reemit all of the pieces.

robotiod
08-15-2010, 07:15 AM
If you are demiting cheated areas when you are demitting it you are actually just emitting a dark matter block, since this is the case you just have to put all of your emmiters in one of the corners of the level template and hook up a one shot switch.

As normal since you have 1 thing out of that emmiter and you have it set to one at a time when you emit the new object (the dark matter block) the old object (the level piece) will be dissolved and replced by an unseen un-important dark matter block.

The only thing you need to do is put the 1 shot sensor switch somewhere in the level where getting rid of part of the level structure will cause the level to still look good and obviously be completable. So only remove it when it is not needed anymore.

Usage of demmiters is difficult to comprehend in theory, but in practise it is much easier.

CYMBOL
08-15-2010, 01:32 PM
If you are demiting cheated areas when you are demitting it you are actually just emitting a dark matter block, since this is the case you just have to put all of your emmiters in one of the corners of the level template and hook up a one shot switch.

As normal since you have 1 thing out of that emmiter and you have it set to one at a time when you emit the new object (the dark matter block) the old object (the level piece) will be dissolved and replced by an unseen un-important dark matter block.

The only thing you need to do is put the 1 shot sensor switch somewhere in the level where getting rid of part of the level structure will cause the level to still look good and obviously be completable. So only remove it when it is not needed anymore.

Usage of demmiters is difficult to comprehend in theory, but in practise it is much easier.

Ok, I think I get it now - just have to get a functional application and try it out.

Thank you very much,



It's always possible you're trying to put to much in. If it's that big you might think about splitting it into two seperate levels. You should still have all of the cheated pieces in your bag. It might help to start a blank level and reemit all of the pieces.

Haha, I AM trying to break it into two - I'm just trying to get to a decent place to stop this level so I can start it in the next one.

Thanks again!

bob is named bob
08-18-2010, 08:03 PM
So if you added in something Un-Thermo friendly, and you used the glitch on it , than you over heat the level, in play mode will emitters still work?

Aya042
08-18-2010, 11:33 PM
So if you added in something Un-Thermo friendly, and you used the glitch on it , than you over heat the level, in play mode will emitters still work?

Well, no, but using this you could only overheat the level in play mode. However, as long as the emitters which fire in play mode were themselves emitted from an emitter which was subsequently re-tweaked to emit DM, that won't be a problem either (in theory).

RoharDragontamer
08-24-2010, 06:09 PM
Aya,

One of these days, I'd like you to look at something with me. I was using the thermo glitch and ran into a problem where my thermo was about 3/4 full, but attempting to add ANY object ANYWHERE in the level gave me the overheated (not overheating) on complicated shapes and would not let me place it.

comphermc
08-24-2010, 06:41 PM
Aya,

One of these days, I'd like you to look at something with me. I was using the thermo glitch and ran into a problem where my thermo was about 3/4 full, but attempting to add ANY object ANYWHERE in the level gave me the overheated (not overheating) on complicated shapes and would not let me place it.

Yep. The only way to add anything else into the level is to emit it. :)

Aya042
08-24-2010, 06:43 PM
I was using the thermo glitch and ran into a problem where my thermo was about 3/4 full, but attempting to add ANY object ANYWHERE in the level gave me the overheated (not overheating) on complicated shapes and would not let me place it.

I think this came up earlier in either this thread, or the similar-looking one in my sig.

Basically, the complex shapes thermo is different to the others. It exists independantly of the visible thermo, and can only be exceeded by emitting stuff into a level.

So, once it's reached its limit, you won't be able to place anything in your level, regardless of what the visible thermo shows, although you can still emit stuff.

Edit: Darn those snipers. Well, at least my reply was more thorough. :p

Kaumy
08-24-2010, 10:30 PM
I'll remember
I'm doing a level ... and begins to heat up :(

Thanks aya :)

I3EN
08-24-2010, 10:31 PM
Does this effecively mean that we could create a level that would be a death trap to anybody who played it and it would freeze and possibly break there game if this is overused?

Aya042
08-24-2010, 11:51 PM
Does this effecively mean that we could create a level that would be a death trap to anybody who played it and it would freeze and possibly break there game if this is overused?

Well, one would assume that if you were to build a level which freezes your PS3, you wouldn't be able to publish it, since your PS3 would be frozen. ;)

HollieCat
08-25-2010, 01:20 AM
thank you !!! hope this works .

Nytroxz
08-25-2010, 06:50 PM
I tried it today after I installed the 1.30 patch i think it is but anyway it still worked under the circumstances that Aya posted.

mutant_red_peas
09-11-2010, 04:29 PM
Does this mean you can make a level that uses up 100% of the thermo, capture it then use your 'cheat' so it goes into your level with little thermo, then make another section that takes up 100% of the thermo on a different..... what's it called.... circle thing, Level slot, then put that in also at the expense of little/no thermo or keep on going till your level is a HUGE 'masterclass' as it is called. Or is that too far?

I sure hope no-one's said that already.

Aya042
09-11-2010, 04:53 PM
Does this mean you can make a level that uses up 100% of the thermo, capture it then use your 'cheat' so it goes into your level with little thermo, then make another section that takes up 100% of the thermo...

Yes, but don't be surprised if the game crashes eventually. :)

Craelon
09-11-2010, 07:14 PM
I've used this emitter method to plop down an entire section of a level before so that my level could fit in the thermo. Its a great way to make bigger and more complex levels.

boomx2equalu
09-16-2010, 09:16 PM
Has anyone tried coping the whole level using this technique?

EDIT: I really need to read the whole conversation before asking a question from now on....)

Ungreth
09-17-2010, 05:25 PM
There's a very good reason not to exploit this glitch.

All I'll say is don't do it, and you might save yourself a headache later on.

Fishrock123
09-17-2010, 06:01 PM
There's a very good reason not to exploit this glitch.

All I'll say is don't do it, and you might save yourself a headache later on.

Heh. It could be useful under specific circumstances.

Specificly if you emitted different sections of the level as you progressed through it; after all, if you have stuff set up correctly, emitters only over heat because the game looks at the 'the might be all on at once' factor.

So if you destroyed each part of the level as you passed it, and used this glitch to emit way more sections than normally allowed you could have an Incredibly long level only limited by the physical boundaries of te level.


That would be the best use IMO.

CYMBOL
09-17-2010, 06:42 PM
There's a very good reason not to exploit this glitch.

All I'll say is don't do it, and you might save yourself a headache later on.

Well, if you're trying to warn people - why be cryptic? :confused:


Heh. It could be useful under specific circumstances.

Specificly if you emitted different sections of the level as you progressed through it; after all, if you have stuff set up correctly, emitters only over heat because the game looks at the 'the might be all on at once' factor.

So if you destroyed each part of the level as you passed it, and used this glitch to emit way more sections than normally allowed you could have an Incredibly long level only limited by the physical boundaries of te level.


That would be the best use IMO.

That's what I've done - it does still respresent headaches though.

Anyway, I'm using this for my latest level. I'm glad to have had it.

However, in the end, if your level glitches you may have to go ahead and accept the blame for this one. I've had my fair share of MM glitches (they seriously should be payihg me for the lost hours of my life with this game due to glitches) - but with this one, I took the chance. I like the outcome - but it's a gamble for anyone who tries it cause if anything goes wrong - you're on your own.

Ungreth
09-18-2010, 08:03 PM
Well, if you're trying to warn people - why be cryptic? :confused:

Because according to the beta agreement I can't discuss any details.

Also I like being cryptic when warning people of danger. For example, instead of shouting "hey, stay away from the lake...it's thin ice!", I might shout "hey, don't tickle that grebe...it's a grouse in disguise!"

Fishrock123
09-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Because according to the beta agreement I can't discuss any details.

Ok. I get that we shouldn't be using this:

I get what ungreth is saying, There must be some sort of issue with it in LBP2.

Ungreth
09-19-2010, 08:57 AM
Ok. I get that we shouldn't be using this:

I get what untruth is saying, There must be some sort of issue with it in LBP2.

Untruth!? What the...?! :grr:

It's Ungreth! U.N.G.R.E.T.H, and I always speak the truth!!! :mad:

Fishrock123
09-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Untruth!? What the...?! :grr:

It's Ungreth! U.N.G.R.E.T.H, and I always speak the truth!!! :mad:

Well, the spell checker says you are untruth. And the spell checker NEVER lies.

Dingobread
09-21-2010, 05:17 PM
I think I did this glitch on accident a couple of times before I understood what was happening. You know how aggravating it is to be working on a level and start cleaning up only to find out when you delete something the therm goes up. Plus I have made some things that seem to take up too much therm for what it is, that might be a glitch all in it's own maybe. I don't really keep track of my steps so when something weird happens I usually have a tough time figure it out. Very cool glitch you just can't get too greedy with it.

lionhart180
01-06-2011, 05:27 AM
Sadly though this glitch has a nice updside of no max level size and complexity, it has a notable downside that seems to be going amiss. The algorithm to determine how much "thermo" your level takes up is just that, an algorithm. How does it work? No idea but it appears this trick tricks the program into miscalculating how much stuff is in your level, but it doesn't change the fact the objects are there.

What does this mean? Lets go back to what the thermometer is for. If MMM gave us unlimited level size their server would be clogged up with way to big levels, so they give us a limit. Its a really small limit too, but thats ok, because we get a lot done with it. How? Your "level" is just a big ole chunk of code, consisiting of a few sections.

1: All your placed objects, what they are glued to, settings, etc.
2: Wire connections between switches, switch setting,s etc.
3: Physics connections, pistons, string, etc
4: Enviornment settings
5: Positions of stickers, which may just be included on an object by object basis.

Because of this, its actually impossible to really "cheat" the thermo, if the object is there in your level, just because the thermo says its taking up a tinsy bit of room, the script has to be there regardless that say "this object is here with these XYZ coordinates and this shape and these stickers and switches" or it just wouldn't work, it wouldn't even load up when you played the level.

So what does that mean? Simple, by cheating the thermo you are creating a level that is far bigger than it normally would be script wise.

Ok so what you say. So what? What is a lot actually. What is doubling to tripling the loading time for your level. Big whoop? Think about this, whos the main demographic for your level? People playing a videogame with tonnes of levels at their fingertips, and they only choose yours chances are because it had a pretty sticker and sounded itneresting. And if your level takes 3-4 times longer to load, they aren't going to stick around and wait. They'll hit O and pick a different level.

So what you need to judge on a level by level basis, is the increased load time of my level going to net me overall a better or worse return?

Just putting that out there, not saying thermo glitch is awesome, but jus pointing out it does indeed have a downside that is kind of being missed.