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View Full Version : Should MM make a open world kind of level?



blizzard_cool
06-06-2010, 08:58 PM
Well, should they? It would be very neat to see how they would plan a level like that.
Maybe some help from RangerZero (he got much experience with this) and GruntosUK (you know, for the backtracking) and they should be able to pull it of :p

Kog
06-06-2010, 09:05 PM
Should MM? Nah.

With all the new tools there's bound to be tons of open world levels made by the community, so MM should just stick with their normal level layout. :)

EvasiveSpoon
06-06-2010, 09:24 PM
Open world? Do you mean... any amount of people can join in to it? Sort of like a town square type thing? If so, i think it would be WAY too laggy. i lag with 4 people :l ( And its not my connection, i can play Fat Princess with a ton more people and be lag free!)

If you mean a world where you can just explore everything and there isnt really an object of the level, i would totally love that :D! But it would take a lot of memory, and probably a lot of time to make.

AbstractFlesh
06-06-2010, 09:56 PM
Um, how would this be possible?

Silverleon
06-06-2010, 10:04 PM
I'd say, why not just have a player or a group of players do it?
Would probably even be alot better than if Mm does it. :p

I mean if they can do it so can we, right? :)

mistervista
06-06-2010, 11:43 PM
Well, should they? It would be very neat to see how they would plan a level like that.
Maybe some help from RangerZero (he got much experience with this) and GruntosUK (you know, for the backtracking) and they should be able to pull it of :p

Definitely not. I hate those backtracking levels. When I play a level I like to think that when I've done something I'm actually getting somewhere instead of just going round in circles.

qrtda235566
06-07-2010, 12:01 AM
I'd prefer if they didn't to be honest. I'm not too fond of those levels. They're mostly just like "explore and find all of these things and then you win" and they really bore me. I prefer linear levels. As a matter of fact, I think I just prefer linear games all around, unless it's an RPG or something.

Prince Pixelton
06-07-2010, 01:55 AM
Definitely not. I hate those backtracking levels. When I play a level I like to think that when I've done something I'm actually getting somewhere instead of just going round in circles.

Don't speak for everyone. Just because you don't personally like those levels it doesn't mean everyone hates those kinds of levels.

qrtda235566
06-07-2010, 03:54 AM
Don't speak for everyone. Just because you don't personally like those levels it doesn't mean everyone hates those kinds of levels.

I'm sorry, bud, but I'm pretty sure mistervista up there used "I" the whole time. No "we" to be seen.

Since when did people have to make it clear that they're stating an opinion? That's first grade stuff!

lifeiscrapislife
06-07-2010, 06:41 AM
You can't have a 2d open world... & I don't think I would like it if they did a pokemon game camera angle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3jv1PKrF0Y.

coasterfreak1235
06-07-2010, 08:13 AM
I'd like to know how many players in the LBPC community DON'T mind a little exploring on their own. Everything has to be so linear these days, a straight cake walk without even the smallest side branches.
I like the more "open" levels with secrets to find. :D

Kern
06-07-2010, 08:45 AM
I'm Planning a Open Plan Level for LBP2 So no!

:p

Prince Pixelton
06-07-2010, 10:41 AM
I'm sorry, bud, but I'm pretty sure mistervista up there used "I" the whole time. No "we" to be seen.

Since when did people have to make it clear that they're stating an opinion? That's first grade stuff!
He stated "Definately not" and his reason was opininated, so I in return stated he shouldn't speak for everyone.

rtm223
06-07-2010, 11:01 AM
In summary, MrVista's opinion is "definitely not". I think he's allowed to voice that opinion without having to prefix it with "IMO" ;)


I'm in two minds about this. I quite like the open-world levels, but a lot of people in the community do not. I've seen quite a few very good examples get slated for not being mainstream enough. Whilst this is a shame as I love the fact that people do make non-mainstream levels and community members who go out on a limb like that should be supported, the story mode levels do need to have a certain amount (actually a lot) of mass appeal and in many ways it's harder to fit them into a story.

However, remember that this game is intended to be far more than a platformer and MM probably want to push that aspect of it. It's highly likely that some of the story mode levels will be other game types and I'm sure there is plenty of chance for them to add in slightly more open-ended / tactical / objective-based styles, whilst still retaining the mass appeal.

I think many of us are going to be pleasantly surprised when we find out where they are taking this game :)

qrtda235566
06-07-2010, 11:15 AM
He stated "Definately not" and his reason was opininated, so I in return stated he shouldn't speak for everyone.

But he wasn't, he was stating what he thought. This is an opinionated question. He wasn't speaking for everyone, regardless if he said "definitely". For example, if I personally didn't want MM to make an open world level, I wouldn't be talking for everyone when I say "I'd definitely hate it." I'm just saying that I know I'd hate it. If I was going to speak for everyone, I'd say: "Definitely not, EVERYONE would hate it."

SR20DETDOG
06-07-2010, 11:16 AM
Well I don't know about MM but I'm certainly going to have a red hot go at it, even if it is a complete flop. I already know it's going to be hard work though. If something is open world then it can get very boring very quickly if the player keeps running into blank spots with nothing to do. So the biggest challenge will be trying to keep it interesting and challnging.

Arradi
06-07-2010, 12:03 PM
I love playing these kinds of levels, so yep, I'd like to see how MM pulls it off. Even funner IMO is making them, thinking how to hide the next secret, shortcut etc... and make the player go mad trying to figure it out :). Although I always try to keep the main path as clear as possible.

OmegaSlayer
06-07-2010, 01:18 PM
My opinion is that we members of the community are pushing ourselves too much sometimes.
What I'm going to say is not easy to say for me in English and even if I'll be kind enough much people will feel hurt, but anyway...

I think that we pushed the envelope of the game in any way possible, much more than MM ever imagined, and they were happy about it.
We broke the dimension of the game with the Backscratch layer glitch, we broke the thermo capability with Aya's ideas, we owned the Logics thanks to rtm, Comphy, MrSuper and CC, we broke the way to narrate stories with Teeb, NinjaMic and Wex stuff, Grantos pushed the idea of sagas to a new level, IceMaiden has done eyecandy incredible things, CCubbage has done impossible things, and in many many other ways, too many to be mentioned (and sorry if I missed someone :p ).

From those predators, ancient divinities of LBP we all learned a lot, and many guys manage to reach the "master's" level and go further (Luos comes to mind), still, I find that a sane competition, the desire to do better than the others, to discover something, to be recognized for achieving something is pushing away from the core of the game that is: FUN.

Whenever you open a level from the spotlight, you find masterpieces, works of art, but I'm sorry to say that very few are actually fun.
Some levels are too long (an error that even Miglioshin and I did with Deep Under The Snow), some are purposedly too hard, some are very good but boring, some repeat the same mechanic and fresh ideas too much to bear.

I think that we all should also try to focus a lot in making levels more fun, to not think only on showcasing our skills with crazy contramptions, brainmelting puzzles, 1 hour long levels, impossible jumps.
Really, is a 5-10 minutes intense and fun level a bad thing?

So, open worlds, imho are too long to be constant fun or even costant eye candy, or jaw dropping, and still you can't save when you get bored or you have to go out or go to the bathroom :p
So, I don't think they can work very well in every form or sequel of LBP.

Arradi
06-07-2010, 02:05 PM
I think that's a very good point, didn't think of it earlier. I myself find Metroid an extremely fun game, due to the sheer number of possibilities to play the game (caused by the openness) But when I first played it (when I was young) I hated it. What I mean with this is that young players would probably find those levels infuriating. LBP2 is going to have also a various aged players, so it's best to go with the same principles shown in LBP1 (Short but fun levels) even though you could possibly make a 20+ hour RPG levels, too.

I will continue to make those Metroidvania levels and probably enjoy them in LBP2 too. But putting them in the story premade levels is indeed a bad idea... But maybe a Metroid/castlevania pack? Well one can always hope :p
(But off course, I said "Metroid" too many times in this post. Hope you're touph enough to understand that this guy are, indeed very, very sick.(Oops, wrong game! So that's how you fool them!))

OmegaSlayer
06-07-2010, 02:39 PM
I don't have problems with long levels (I did one extremely long with Miglioshin where people said that we owned the thermo, just search Deep Under The Snow), the point is that if you want a wide level with an open world to explore, you're forced to sacrifice visuals or worse than that you have to make the player do basic stuff like running and linear jumping for way too much time.
I really have to say again to go and play Rollers something by Luos, and understand what I mean, a level with always something fun to do, with some good ideas and with the right length.
I remember an idea from Outlaw-Jack for an open world level with a flying world to visit with a jetpack, that sounded awesome, but he never realized, because it can become boring, like adventures that take place completely underwater and are forced to too slow paces.
And I'm just observing that lately the most fun levels are the ones that force you to co-op with another player.
Really, I think that releasing a 100% fun and never boring level is the hardest thing to accomplish now (some people here already did it), since it's not something that can be teached like logic.
For me it has become an obsession and it's what has been blocking me for months.

R0GUE--Elite
06-07-2010, 03:07 PM
I dont think MM should make one as a story level as I believe many people would get bored trying to collect every price bubble but I would love to play free roaming levels made by people of the community. I will attempt to make an free roaming level similar to Metal Gear Solid 1 and with the new level linking function in lbp2, you could make different sections of a large building or island!

blizzard_cool
06-07-2010, 06:08 PM
*image me saying this in a calm way* ˇˇ

I'm sorry guys but I have to seriously disagree with some of the stuff you said.
Imo, open world levels are insanely fun and it's not much of a problem to play them since they are really simple most of the times.

Some of the stuff you said are simply stupid (to me, and I'm really sorry if I have hurt someones feelings :( ). Breaking the games boundaries was a good thing as we managed to pull much more out of the game!
We should not make a step back to more simpler levels, we should now try to break the boundaries that are masterpieces being boring (which I honestly disagree because I enjoy every single top noch level and there is only one master class level that I did not enjoy).
We should try harder and not go a step back.

mistervista
06-07-2010, 06:16 PM
@blizzard : You seem to have got the wrong idea altogether. No-one is saying that the community shouldn't make open world levels. That's not the issue. As you and others have already said the community is doing amazing things with LBP and should and WILL continue to do so and even more so with LBP2.

The title of this thread is "Should MM make a open world kind of level? (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?28203-Should-MM-make-a-open-world-kind-of-level/page2)" so we are replying to that alone.

blizzard_cool
06-07-2010, 06:36 PM
@blizzard : You seem to have got the wrong idea altogether. No-one is saying that the community shouldn't make open world levels. That's not the issue. As you and others have already said the community is doing amazing things with LBP and should and WILL continue to do so and even more so with LBP2.

The title of this thread is "Should MM make a open world kind of level? (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?28203-Should-MM-make-a-open-world-kind-of-level/page2)" so we are replying to that alone.

I was actually replying to Omegaslayers second part of his post.
But I still think that Mm should make a open world level :p

OmegaSlayer
06-07-2010, 06:58 PM
I was actually replying to Omegaslayers second part of his post.
But I still think that Mm should make a open world level :p
Yep, no prob, it's cool when people have different ideas.
At the cost of being stubbornly picky I invite you to think a bit about the diffference between "enjoy" and "have fun"
There are countless levels where you "tour" in awe, saying cool! watch that waterfall! insane lighting here! OMG! this puzzle is great! etc...
There are sure less levels where you simply have fun, caring very few about the tech; levels that you feel compelled to play over and over.
The point is that the more you force the player to wander here and there, the more you'll have to do to keep his interest high.
An open world level should take by definition a great amount of things to accomplish and needs time to be completed.
You need 4 thermos to have a level that is fun and long and sure not even MM can be able to deliver it.

That would change IF in LBP2 you can create a HUB like in Braid from where you can access different levels interconnected, where pulling a lever in one level triggers an event in another, but as the game is designed, this is impossible, unless MM gives us (and the sackboy) the possibility to use keys (and having sackboy carrying through levels) like the ones that open locked levels that specifically trigger events...but for now this is sci-fi.

blizzard_cool
06-07-2010, 07:01 PM
Yep, no prob, it's cool when people have different ideas.
At the cost of being stubbornly picky I invite you to think a bit about the diffference between "enjoy" and "have fun"
There are countless levels where you "tour" in awe, saying cool! watch that waterfall! insane lighting here! OMG! this puzzle is great! etc...
There are sure less levels where you simply have fun, caring very few about the tech; levels that you feel compelled to play over and over.
The point is that the more you force the player to wander here and there, the more you'll have to do to keep his interest high.
An open world level should take by definition a great amount of things to accomplish and needs time to be completed.
You need 4 thermos to have a level that is fun and long and sure not even MM can be able to deliver it.

That would change IF in LBP2 you can create a HUB like in Braid from where you can access different levels interconnected, where pulling a lever in one level triggers an event in another, but as the game is designed, this is impossible, unless MM gives us (and the sackboy) the possibility to use keys (and having sackboy carrying through levels) like the ones that open locked levels that specifically trigger events...but for now this is sci-fi.

In some parts I agree but now we will be able to link level *wink, wink* ;)

qrtda235566
06-07-2010, 07:18 PM
My opinion is that we members of the community are pushing ourselves too much sometimes.
What I'm going to say is not easy to say for me in English and even if I'll be kind enough much people will feel hurt, but anyway...

I think that we pushed the envelope of the game in any way possible, much more than MM ever imagined, and they were happy about it.
We broke the dimension of the game with the Backscratch layer glitch, we broke the thermo capability with Aya's ideas, we owned the Logics thanks to rtm, Comphy, MrSuper and CC, we broke the way to narrate stories with Teeb, NinjaMic and Wex stuff, Grantos pushed the idea of sagas to a new level, IceMaiden has done eyecandy incredible things, CCubbage has done impossible things, and in many many other ways, too many to be mentioned (and sorry if I missed someone :p ).

From those predators, ancient divinities of LBP we all learned a lot, and many guys manage to reach the "master's" level and go further (Luos comes to mind), still, I find that a sane competition, the desire to do better than the others, to discover something, to be recognized for achieving something is pushing away from the core of the game that is: FUN.

Whenever you open a level from the spotlight, you find masterpieces, works of art, but I'm sorry to say that very few are actually fun.
Some levels are too long (an error that even Miglioshin and I did with Deep Under The Snow), some are purposedly too hard, some are very good but boring, some repeat the same mechanic and fresh ideas too much to bear.

I think that we all should also try to focus a lot in making levels more fun, to not think only on showcasing our skills with crazy contramptions, brainmelting puzzles, 1 hour long levels, impossible jumps.
Really, is a 5-10 minutes intense and fun level a bad thing?

So, open worlds, imho are too long to be constant fun or even costant eye candy, or jaw dropping, and still you can't save when you get bored or you have to go out or go to the bathroom :p
So, I don't think they can work very well in every form or sequel of LBP.

I agree that they shouldn't do an open world level, but the rest of your post is kind of ridiculous. Do you think that, maybe, LBP just isn't your game?

On an unrelated note, it wouldn't be a true Miglioshin level if it didn't take at least an hour to complete. :p

OmegaSlayer
06-07-2010, 07:39 PM
I agree that they shouldn't do an open world level, but the rest of your post is kind of ridiculous. Do you think that, maybe, LBP just isn't your game?

On an unrelated note, it wouldn't be a true Miglioshin level if it didn't take at least an hour to complete. :p

LOL, I think that LBP is everyone's game were anyone can express in his favourite way and needs to be respected, even the childs with silly levels.
I only say that doing an open world level is not the biggest challenge that a creator can face, and I said it with walls of words and ridicoulus examples.
I accept you say that I said something ridicoulus and I'll be the Mr.Bean of this forum, the day that someone proves me wrong creating a 30 minutes open world level that is fun in every second of it without having to only walk and jump or more than 5 seconds.
So, yeah, I dare you :p

monstahr
06-08-2010, 05:09 AM
I'm torn over the open world stuff. When I start the level it's all like, yeah! I'm gonna go explore! But once you start finding the secrets and completing tasks and stuff, the world just grows empty and its kind of a pain to run around. To answer OP, then, no, they shouldn't do it. Not in a series of levels.

SR20DETDOG
06-08-2010, 06:20 AM
So, open worlds, imho are too long to be constant fun or even costant eye candy, or jaw dropping, and still you can't save when you get bored or you have to go out or go to the bathroom :p
So, I don't think they can work very well in every form or sequel of LBP.
I completely agree with Omega here.
I have to say I do agree with you Omega on this.

But I'm still going to make one. You just have to be creative. You brought up the issue of saving, that could be done with some logic including codes and teleportors but what I think would be even better is an open world game that doesn't need a save feature.

We also need to be more creative in what an open world game is. They're not just rpg's. I could be wrong but cloudn't something like Need For Speed: Undergound 1, 2 and Most wanted be considered open world games. We've already seen that top down racers are completely possible to build. So I can't see anything stopping and open world racer maybe even with police chases just like NFS: Most wanted.

If the player has the ability to go anywhere in the world and choose to do any number and any order of races availiable throughout the world while mixing in a few randomly timed police chaases here and there then I see no need for the player to save. Everytime they play they could either repeat the same process they did before or go off and do something completely different.

Another idea that I've been thinking about for a while but have never really got around to doing and tests on it yet is the ability for a level to change it's shape everytime the player replays it. Just as Diablo I and Diablo II did. I still believe that this is completely possible to do and If it is done the replay value of the level would go through the roof, since it will be a new game everytime you play.

So I don't see anything wrong with an open world game as long as it's fun. Which is pretty much Omega's point if I'm correct.

CCubbage
06-08-2010, 12:11 PM
From those predators, ancient divinities of LBP we all learned a lot, and many guys manage to reach the "master's" level and go further (Luos comes to mind), still, I find that a sane competition, the desire to do better than the others, to discover something, to be recognized for achieving something is pushing away from the core of the game that is: FUN.

Whenever you open a level from the spotlight, you find masterpieces, works of art, but I'm sorry to say that very few are actually fun.
Some levels are too long (an error that even Miglioshin and I did with Deep Under The Snow), some are purposedly too hard, some are very good but boring, some repeat the same mechanic and fresh ideas too much to bear.


This was an interesting post, but I disagree with a few points, and that is to say many of the levels from the spotlight aren't fun.

When I've created levels, I've always thought of fun first. I would play around with different mechanics and ask myself "would THIS be fun?". But, I didn't want to copy the fun of an MM level. As far as I'm concerned, if every level is fun in the same way.... how could LittleBigPlanet last? Some people enjoy open world, some people enjoy arcade, some people enjoy heart-poinding challenges, and some people enjoy basic platforming. If every level was fun in the same way as an MM level, I wouldn't have stuck around too long.

Case in point: I found "Vertigo!" (MY vertigo :D) featured on a japanese website. I used the google translator on the site, and found they LOVED it. This is a game that many would consider frustrating, but the idea of twitch-action arcade appeals to different types of people.

So, should MM make an open world? Nope, I don't think so. In fact, I hope they stay out of quite a few genres and give the community some areas to fill in the blanks. I think laying groundwork and letting the ideas fly suites them best.

Joshofsouls
06-08-2010, 12:23 PM
"Open world"
That kinda points to a free roaming level where you visit cities, and towns, and caves.... i dont think so.... not with the current size of the level canvas.... but im sure SOMEONE will using the patch linking to make and RPG series with multiple towns and stuff... *Cough* ultimateclay *Cough*

Lgjoka2002
08-04-2010, 08:43 PM
they could but if i were to create an open mode in lbp2 it would be an over head view sort of RPG style make building shopping malls but thats just an idea so that would be cool.