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poorjack
08-23-2010, 05:30 PM
From previous thread:

I am still worried about the 4 games theory... for those of you who havent read my previous post... IF it is counted as individual "levels" we will NOT be able to publish as many "Games" as many of us want. If a "Game" is made up of 4 "Levels" and we publish based on "Levels" then... we have hardly ANY space! What about us creators planning epics that span several levels? are we relegated to having less content publishable?


I don't know if this will scare anyone as much as it's scaring me, but LBP2 has a limit of 20 levels. At first i interpreted this as meaning 20 of "complete projects" or 20 Games or Levels. But evidence is now surfacing that supports the idea that it will only support 20 LEVELS. So in theory, if someone makes 4 games, and those games are 5 levels each, we will only be able to upload those games, and NO MORE.

Another level of my paranoia suggests 1 or more games that equal 15 levels, and another game that is 6 levels. This would mean you could ONLY publish the first, and the second would not upload.

This is scary to me, as I was planning an epic game that spanned 9 or 10 levels... But if Mm is limiting the number of games by counting levels... I feel somewhat discouraged to make a game. I feel that counting Levels and not games could potentially stifle creativity. What do you think?

Fishrock123
08-23-2010, 05:38 PM
I am still worried about the 4 games theory... for those of you who havent read my previous post... IF it is counted as individual "levels" we will NOT be able to publish as many "Games" as many of us want. If a "Game" is made up of 4 "Levels" and we publish based on "Levels" then... we have hardly ANY space! What about us creators planning epics that span several levels? are we relegated to having less content publishable?

Secondary PSN accounts. Have I said enough? :P

rtm223
08-23-2010, 05:39 PM
I think it means you are limited to having the same number of levels as everyone else. If your "game" spans 5 slots, why should it count as less than 5 individual levels? I don't get it.

I can see why it might be annoying, but you're acting like it's unfair that you don't get more :confused:


Everyone gets 20 slots. Simples.

schm0
08-23-2010, 05:49 PM
I am still worried about the 4 games theory... for those of you who havent read my previous post... IF it is counted as individual "levels" we will NOT be able to publish as many "Games" as many of us want. If a "Game" is made up of 4 "Levels" and we publish based on "Levels" then... we have hardly ANY space! What about us creators planning epics that span several levels? are we relegated to having less content publishable?

Well, no, you have the same space as everyone else. 20 levels. Whether or not those are linked into multi-level "games" that is your choice. If you run out of room you can simply transfer your old levels to an alternate PSN ID as others currently do when they reach their max. Or you can unpublish others to make room. The same limitations apply to LBP1 today.

poorjack
08-23-2010, 05:49 PM
the difference is that one person may feel the need for only one level to realize their idea, whereas another may require 5 levels. Both are complete, singular units, but one takes up more space because it uses a level link. I think that ONE game should equal ONE level in terms of uploads, no matter how many levels it links, as it is ONE singular experience.

EDIT: Everyone gets 20 slots... Yes. But I think each slot should fit EITHER one level OR one complete game.

rtm223
08-23-2010, 05:56 PM
But a game is basically a level series...

Surely it just gives everyone infinite levels as they just brand their many levels as a complete "game", regardless of whether that is true or not.

schm0
08-23-2010, 05:58 PM
the difference is that one person may feel the need for only one level to realize their idea, whereas another may require 5 levels. Both are complete, singular units, but one takes up more space because it uses a level link. I think that ONE game should equal ONE level in terms of uploads, no matter how many levels it links, as it is ONE singular experience.

EDIT: Everyone gets 20 slots... Yes. But I think each slot should fit EITHER one level OR one complete game.

I don't think you get to change the rules simply by saying your "game" should take up as much space as a level. What if I decide to make a game with 1,000,000 linked levels? That's hardly practical.

You have 20 level slots to publish now in LBP1. You'll have 20 level slots to publish on LBP2. If you are upset with that limitation you should probably focus on making your levels more compact or find ways to work around it.

EDIT: Sniped. :/

poorjack
08-23-2010, 06:04 PM
I see that some may try to link alot of levels together just to call it a game, and I cannot see a fair way to moderate this behavior, but I still think that it would better the community to have the same weight attached to a game as is attached to a level in regard to upload slots, OR give maybe ten or so more upload slots.

PS, I am not mad at Mm, or calling this "unfair" exactly, I am just sharing an observation that I found interesting, and somewhat frustrating from a story creator's view.

grayspence
08-23-2010, 09:37 PM
I understand both views, Im sure people will probobly complain about this in the future, but we have to remember that some things could change from what they are right now to something completely different when the game is realeased. Remember how different LBP1 was at E3 than what we have now? We could have something completely different than what we have now on the realease date.

Nurolight
08-23-2010, 09:41 PM
Well, 20 levels from LBP2 and 20 from LBP1?

I wonder if you could start a tiny bit of a level in LBP1, then re-publish (as you can do!) over it from a creation in LBP2?

rtm223
08-23-2010, 09:55 PM
No, because then it would be an LBP2 level.

TBH, is this thread pretty much "I'd like more level slots" - that I can understand... not the "games made up of many levels should count the same as a stand alone level"

dorien
08-23-2010, 09:58 PM
I think where your problem is, it's that you think of a "game" as a level series.

I think you'll find, that when MM refer to LBP2 and seeing if they get a million "games" as a posed to a million levels. What they mean is that they hope to see a lot more people making different 'types' of games, with the new tools making this easier. Like puzzlers, racing, sports....... and possibly even create a whole new genre of game like Mark Healey has said he would like to see happen.

So making 9-10 levels that are linked in some way to make a story, is not really a "game". It's a level series.....

duffym871
08-23-2010, 10:10 PM
I'm slightly disappointed (spelling error?) by this. Anyway I think the clip below sums up my feelings pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsdXmYGFBcU&feature=related

jakpe
08-23-2010, 10:26 PM
I think this is awesome.

Hopefully this will up the quality of the levels on LBP(2).

... But we've got the lbp.me thingy, but still I guess.

Nuclearfish
08-23-2010, 10:30 PM
So making 9-10 levels that are linked in some way to make a story, is not really a "game". It's a level series.....

This.

If a 'game' is simply a level series, then we already have many 'games' in LBP1, and people have managed those just fine with a 20 level limit. The ONLY difference LBP2 will make is you won't need to return to the Pod, you can link straight to the next level, so I don't really see how you can argue this will stifle creativity in LBP2 if it didn't in LBP1.

grayspence
08-23-2010, 10:31 PM
I think we need to stop worrying about level space problems, and start considering how MM are going to improve the THERMOMITER! After all, its how we prevent having too mny levels in the first place! :rolleyes:

IMB
08-23-2010, 10:39 PM
Use secondary PSN accounts, you can link levels to different account's levels, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

DeusJt
08-23-2010, 10:41 PM
i think you should get more level slots if you get more hearts in your levels that you previously uploaded, that way MM will know that giving them extra slots is like giving them more space to make great levels. Because they EARNED those slots.

dorien
08-23-2010, 10:48 PM
i think you should get more level slots if you get more hearts in your levels that you previously uploaded, that way MM will know that giving them extra slots is like giving them more space to make great levels. Because they EARNED those slots.

And this would help wit the H4H problem how????:rolleyes:

rtm is right, this thread is just turning into a "CAN I HAS MORE SLOTS" thread..........

Silverleon
08-23-2010, 10:57 PM
the difference is that one person may feel the need for only one level to realize their idea, whereas another may require 5 levels. Both are complete, singular units, but one takes up more space because it uses a level link. I think that ONE game should equal ONE level in terms of uploads, no matter how many levels it links, as it is ONE singular experience.

EDIT: Everyone gets 20 slots... Yes. But I think each slot should fit EITHER one level OR one complete game.

Yet you're still building 20 levels O_o

I don't get what;s the problem here actually,its the same as its always been... -_-


I think we need to stop worrying about level space problems, and start considering how MM are going to improve the THERMOMITER! After all, its how we prevent having too mny levels in the first place! :rolleyes:

They already talke about that, they said they're merging all thermos together, so now you can use the thermo you see, and that's the only one you gotta worry about, so you can use all your space on one or two things without un-used spare thremo.

In short, you'll probably be able to fit in more stuff into levels. (well "technically" you have same space as you always have, but now all of it can be used)

ThePineapplizer
08-23-2010, 11:06 PM
:frightened:

Wait, dont we get the other 20 slots from Little Big Planet 1? Can you enter Create mode in the old Slots?

:SH:

lyrradXOX
08-23-2010, 11:19 PM
When MM said that we could create full games, they were not necessarily talking about level series' but creations that simply have their own rules. You can make a game much like the basket ball minigame that Alex Evans showed off at GC or even a racing game that is only comprised of one "level". The logical solution would be to just make another account like those before me have stated. Maybe on LBP.me you could simply tell your players what accounts are under your ownership and lead your players to your other creations. Atyleast, thats my plan :)

Sack-Jake
08-23-2010, 11:24 PM
If you're making a series of levels, share them with a friend and link them together.

Mastadom
08-23-2010, 11:48 PM
Yeah I was pretty bummed out that you can only publish 20 levels, even if you have like,
10 or so levels from LBP1.
/:

Silverleon
08-23-2010, 11:57 PM
Yeah I was pretty bummed out that you can only publish 20 levels, even if you have like,
10 or so levels from LBP1.
/:

?
You got 20 spots for LBP1 levels and 20 for LBP2 levels dude...

alexbull_uk
08-24-2010, 12:02 AM
I think it'd be nice if you could use some of your LBP1 quota on LBP2. So if you only have 5 LBP1 levels, you gain an extra 15 slots to use in LBP.
But, on the flipside, that would mean all the new people who never played LBP1 would get 40 levels... hmm.

I don't know. I guess, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies nicely here. We coped for 2 years. We can cope for some more.

Schwem00
08-24-2010, 01:21 AM
So you want eatch Game to only take up 1 slot? Like RTM said, this can give people Infinite levels, but if MM limits Games to only 5 Levels this would work, because at maximum you would only get.... Wait, mabye only 3 levels because 5 would give you 100 levels..

mattbru77
08-24-2010, 01:44 AM
summary:

to alex:
game = level

lbp1 =build yar own levels (for a platformer)
lbp2 = game yar own games (for a game platform)

tomodon246
08-24-2010, 02:12 AM
You don't publish 'games.' You publish levels and link them. I think 20 levels will be enough.

Sehven
08-24-2010, 05:08 AM
I don't think it's a big deal. If you're taking the time to make your levels good, then you shouldn't really have time to fill up more than 20 slots... unless you're really good and you can just crank out good levels like crazy.


Use secondary PSN accounts, you can link levels to different account's levels, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

That's actually a really good idea. You can use your main account (where you've established a reputation) to publish the first level (the hook) and link from it to the levels on your other account.

Nurolight
08-24-2010, 11:15 AM
...unless you're really good and you can just crank out good levels like crazy.

Where's steve stand then? :)

Smudge228
08-24-2010, 12:13 PM
I thought I read somewhere that emitters have changed so they only take up thermo whilst the object is emitted. If this is true then you could theoretically just emitt/demit whole sections of your level for almost infinate thermo space. then you wouldnt need multiple levels to make a game.

Jedi_1993
08-24-2010, 12:20 PM
I thought I read somewhere that emitters have changed so they only take up thermo whilst the object is emitted. If this is true then you could theoretically just emitt/demit whole sections of your level for almost infinate thermo space. then you wouldnt need multiple levels to make a game.

So... only emitting a level section when your near/in it? Could help the thermo no end!
If this is true, I think I must have missed it being said.

rtm223
08-24-2010, 12:55 PM
I thought I read somewhere that emitters have changed so they only take up thermo whilst the object is emitted. If this is true then you could theoretically just emitt/demit whole sections of your level for almost infinate thermo space. then you wouldnt need multiple levels to make a game.

It's something vaguely along those lines, but I don't think that before the first object is emitted it is completely free, but I'm not sure. Definitely if you are emitting multiple objects from the same emitter you save a lot of thermo until they are actually emitted.

But yes, the old "worst case scenario" thermo calc is not the norm any more. Howver, this does make it far easier to overheat in play mode ;)

Rabid-Coot
08-24-2010, 04:30 PM
Right in LBP 1 when you made The Awesome Level parts 1 and 2 it took two of your slots because it was 2 seperate levels and you put the key to unlock part 2 at the end of part 1.

Now in LBP 2 when you make The Fantastic Level parts 1 and 2 it will take two of your slots because it will be two seperate levels and you access part 2 directly from part 1.

Simples.

poorjack
08-26-2010, 12:10 AM
OP feelin alot of hate up in here lol. I'm sorry this is causing alot of... yelling at me, but I did not know you could link to levels of another PSN... That solves my problem

Shadowcrazy
08-26-2010, 02:01 AM
i wonder if its possible to link levels with friends to make a collab project?

ShamgarBlade
08-26-2010, 04:12 AM
i wonder if its possible to link levels with friends to make a collab project?

Does anyone know if this could be a possibility? This could allow more room for creativity and would not restrict the number of games you could make as much.

fodawim
08-26-2010, 05:02 AM
any one else think a easy way for MM to make some extra money would be to sell extra publishing slots? I would buy extra slots as I am sure alot of other creators would :p

RangerZero
08-26-2010, 06:06 AM
With Sony and more $$$, I would have thought that we would have more than 20 slot this time around but hey, that's another story...

.

Rabid-Coot
08-26-2010, 10:00 AM
i wonder if its possible to link levels with friends to make a collab project?


Does anyone know if this could be a possibility? This could allow more room for creativity and would not restrict the number of games you could make as much.

Alex mentioned in atleast one gamescom vid that you could publish a level that is just a bunch of links to levels you think are cool so collab should be possible too.

Lord-Dreamerz
08-26-2010, 10:01 AM
i wonder if its possible to link levels with friends to make a collab project?

I'm pretty sure you can, *mew
but i can't promise it.

rtm223
08-26-2010, 10:12 AM
With Sony and more $$$,

Except... Won't more money only really come from more players??? So 20 (or actually 40 now, so there is an increase) slots per player seems like it makes sense...

Anyways, I think Sony always ran the servers. After all LBP was their product, not MMs

Oddmania
08-26-2010, 11:55 AM
This thread doesn't seem to make sense.

" Do you think counting levels instead of games could stifle creativity? "

So... You're asking for a slot per series... ? This would change everything, and even if the current system could be improved, it's not that bad, and as Rtm said, everyone managed to get by :)

comishguy67
08-26-2010, 02:31 PM
I think it's practical to have "levels within levels and be considered a game rather than a singular level.

Say i was to make a music level, then capture the song and put it as a prize bubble in another music level. I would have two music levels in one level. It's generally the same concept. Only difference it's not really "official", and I don''t think it should be a big deal for MM to do something like that.

If they are marketing the idea of making "games" then they really need to give us the tools to truly do that, and I think that involves allowing a series of levels counting as one level or "game". It seems to be the best choice.

Rogar
08-26-2010, 03:15 PM
I don't understand the first part of what you're saying, but in response to the latter part: anything this missing "tool" can do, you can already do, it just takes up more of you publishing slots. So it's not a missing tool at all. What if Square had refuses to publish Final Fantasy VII because the Playstation didn't "give them the tools" to put 3 CD's worth of game data on a single CD?

IMHO, if there is one tool missing to truly allow you to make games, it's persistence (storing data between levels or play sessions).

Jord-bord
08-26-2010, 05:41 PM
But don't you put the level link IN THE OTHER LEVEL? So why do you half to publish every part of the game when you can just publish the game with the level links inside?

Nuclearfish
08-26-2010, 08:41 PM
But don't you put the level link IN THE OTHER LEVEL? So why do you half to publish every part of the game when you can just publish the game with the level links inside?

Erm... so that people can PLAY it? A level has to be published on the server for others to access it, you can't link players to levels that only exist on your moon.

comishguy67
08-27-2010, 01:24 AM
@Rogar
I'm not sure if your responding to me but I'll assume you are.

The "tool" I am referring to is the tool to make a collaboration of levels into one single level, rather than making each level of a series individual.

The example I gave explains how we CAN already do something like that, even in LBP1.

To further elaborate on the concept, I'll use another example.

Say you wanted to create a series and you made the first part of the series (one level) that filled up the whole thermo. Then you were to make the second part of your series and then capture that entire level and put it in a prize bubble and put it in the FIRST part of the level. (it's possible).

You would have two complete levels in ONE level. You don't have to take up two slots of the 20 publishable levels you have, just ONE. It's almost the exact same concept. Only difference would be that instead of using prize bubbles, you would use a special tool that allowed you to collaborate each level of your series into just one level or "game".

MM's whole marketing scheme for LBP2 is to make GAMES not a SERIES OF LEVELS! LBP1 has levels and LBP2 has GAMES!

I think it's practical and really shouldn't be much of a hassle for MM.

Sack-Jake
08-27-2010, 01:52 AM
You definitely will not use all 20 slots. Really, you won't.
Even if you do anyway, you could just make another account and use the cheat to bypass all the tutorials.

Rogar
08-27-2010, 11:55 AM
Say you wanted to create a series and you made the first part of the series (one level) that filled up the whole thermo. Then you were to make the second part of your series and then capture that entire level and put it in a prize bubble and put it in the FIRST part of the level. (it's possible).

You would have two complete levels in ONE level. You don't have to take up two slots of the 20 publishable levels you have, just ONE. It's almost the exact same concept. Only difference would be that instead of using prize bubbles, you would use a special tool that allowed you to collaborate each level of your series into just one level or "game".

Oh, I see what you mean now! Does that really work? Huge prizes would add to the thermo, wouldn't they? Unless file size on the server is not limited.

Still, that does not make it a tool necessary for games. It's merely a tool to help you fit more games in your 20 publishing slots.


I think it's practical and really shouldn't be much of a hassle for MM.

That's a very dangerous thing to say when you haven't looked at the source code. Maybe their architecture makes it really easy, or maybe it would require a total rewrite. The latter seems quite likely, as multiple levels in one level goes completely against the current concept of levels.

comishguy67
08-27-2010, 01:39 PM
Oh, I see what you mean now! Does that really work? Huge prizes would add to the thermo, wouldn't they? Unless file size on the server is not limited.

Still, that does not make it a tool necessary for games. It's merely a tool to help you fit more games in your 20 publishing slots.

See, that's just it. It's not a "game" if it allows no more than what levels on LBP1 does. Somehow you got the idea that "levels" in LBP2 = games just because you can link levels together.

That's like if I bought a DVD then super charged it and called it a blu-ray because you add more on it and do more with it than a regular DVD. It's still a DVD...

Well...that's probably a bad example...but here's my point.

I remember reading something that MM said during an interview. They wanted the community to create games on it's own merit. Like they would be a good as retail games basically. So I think the most sensible way to achieve that goal is to give us, the community, the tools to make that possible. Games nowadays, whether they be platformers, shooters, RPGs, they all have one thing in common, they give us 10 to 60 hours of content in ONE DISC! (and yes even xbox's crappy DVDs still give a wealth of content.)

So when I hear the word "game", I vision each "level" (game) in LBP2 to be comparable to a retail game and guess what? I haven't picked up one retail game that consisted of only 1 level! Whether it's an arcade game or a progressive game like an RPG.

So, as far as I'm concerned, LBP2 doesn't have games, just levels like LBP1...





That's a very dangerous thing to say when you haven't looked at the source code. Maybe their architecture makes it really easy, or maybe it would require a total rewrite. The latter seems quite likely, as multiple levels in one level goes completely against the current concept of levels.

How is it that different? The only difference between the current concept and my theoretical one is that levels that are linked within a level don't count as a level by itself.

Plus MM hired programming gods imo and I reading remember somewhere they said there really isn't much fixation in LBP2. They said they wanted everything in LBP2 to be flexible and prone to change.

It doesn't "seem" hard but as you say I don't know the source code so I can't really make any just judgments.

I think if maybe there are server issues than MM can limit the amount of levels linked to say 10.

I really hope they at least try to do something like this. It would probably make a lot of creators happy.

Nuclearfish
08-27-2010, 01:44 PM
MM's whole marketing scheme for LBP2 is to make GAMES not a SERIES OF LEVELS! LBP1 has levels and LBP2 has GAMES!

In this marketing scheme, 'games' mostly means something other than a platformer.


Look at it logically and what you're arguing makes no sense. You feel that you should be able to fit multiple, thermo filled, long story levels into a single level slot because they follow on and it counts as a 'game'. And then there's people like me who plan on making small minigames and survival challenges, each taking up very little thermo and level space, and each using one level slot. I'd class each of those minigames as a seperate 'game', so how can it possibly be fair for me to only publish 20 small levels yet you can get away with publishing 100 long levels?!?

EDIT:


See, that's just it. It's not a "game" if it allows no more than what levels on LBP1 does. Somehow you got the idea that "levels" in LBP2 = games just because you can link levels together.

...

So when I hear the word "game", I vision each "level" (game) in LBP2 to be comparable to a retail game and guess what? I haven't picked up one retail game that consisted of only 1 level! Whether it's an arcade game or a progressive game like an RPG.

*facepalm*

I think you seriously need to rethink your vision of what a 'game' is.

comishguy67
08-27-2010, 02:13 PM
In this marketing scheme, 'games' mostly means something other than a platformer.


Look at it logically and what you're arguing makes no sense. You feel that you should be able to fit multiple, thermo filled, long story levels into a single level slot because they follow on and it counts as a 'game'. And then there's people like me who plan on making small minigames and survival challenges, each taking up very little thermo and level space, and each using one level slot. I'd class each of those minigames as a seperate 'game', so how can it possibly be fair for me to only publish 20 small levels yet you can get away with publishing 100 long levels?!?

EDIT:



*facepalm*

I think you seriously need to rethink your vision of what a 'game' is.

It's not what I think, it's what MM said:

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2010/07/20/littlebigplanet-2-levels-will-be-games-of-their-own-merit/

That's what I base my definition of "games" on...

Now to argue your first point:

First off, what you said about some creators making "20 level long" levels and others making small mini-games type levels in no way confides in your point.

I've played plenty of levels that took me over 50 minutes to complete on LBP1...and I've played levels that took me 10 seconds to complete...I played beefy story-based levels...and small mini-games. Why do you think there should be this "equality" law? Some people like to make really long levels and some people don't. Do you think one should be limited because of the other?

The concept I'm trying to promote is that a "series of levels" shouldn't be considered games....simple as that... If MM wants people to make "games" on their own merit they need to give them much more than the tools they have on LBP1...because then it's pretty much LBP 1.5.

I don't see why MM needs to make things "fair". Is it fair that I can't make levels as good as steve biggs? No...they should just cater to everyone's needs. :)

EDIT: If someone wants to make an epic 100 hour game, then by god let him do it! If someone wants to make a simple game of checkers, then by god let him do it! Somehow, it seems like your saying "if all I wanna do is make mini-games, then everyone should only be able to make mini-games.

And yes, games does mean more than plat formers...hopefully much more...

Nuclearfish
08-27-2010, 02:41 PM
First off, what you said about some creators making "20 level long" levels and others making small mini-games type levels in no way confides in your point. I've played plenty of levels that took me over 50 minutes to complete on LBP1...and I've played levels that took me 10 seconds to complete...I played beefy story-based levels...and small mini-games. Why do you think there should be this "equality" law anyway? Some people like to make really long levels and some people don't. Do you think one should be limited because of the other?

I think you're missing my point. It simply makes NO sense for a minigame to take up the same amount of server space as 20 hour multi-level 'game'. If anything, the creators who make standalone minigames should be the ones to get more space to publish more levels.

And yes, obviously I think there should be equality. Why shouldn't there be? Everybody gets 20 levels slots, and in each of those levels they can fit in as much as the thermo and level space allows. If your 'game' won't fit in a single level, you make it and publish it as multiple levels and link them together. Everyone gets the same space, everyone chooses how they want to use it. Simples.


It's not what I think, it's what MM said:

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2010/07/20/littlebigplanet-2-levels-will-be-games-of-their-own-merit/

And why should 20 full levels not be enough to make a 'game'? You have to make a decision. You EITHER use all your level slots on one epic level series (or 'game'), OR you use them for individual levels (or, more likely, a mixture).

And anways, that comment from Mark isn't really relevant. Nowhere does he say that a 'game' has to be several hours long. All he says is he hopes someone will make something so good that websites might review it for its own merit.


Now, I'm going to go back to playing Doodle Jump on my iPhone for a bit. But, oh wait... I suppose that doesn't count as a 'game' because it's only 59p and only has one level. Bugger.

comishguy67
08-27-2010, 03:02 PM
LOL as far as I'm concerned, you and I have two different definitions of games.

What you said: It simply makes NO sense for a minigame to take up the same amount of server space as 20 hour multi-level 'game'

Why doesn't it make sense? Again look at steve biggs levels, or any of those "scary story-based levels and then look at some noobs level that consist of nothing but a badly crafted line of dark matter. Do they not take up the same amount of server space? Are you saying(or saying I'm saying) that just because a game is simple it shouldn't be considered a game?

What you said: Now, I'm going to go back to playing Doodle Jump on my iPhone for a bit. But, oh wait... I suppose that doesn't count as a 'game' because it's only 59p and only has one level. Bugger.

Whoa whoa whoa! Now your confusing me. Where did I say a game HAD to be 20 hours long in order to be considered a game? I said that IF MM wanted creators to make a game that could be reviewed by professional critics, then they have to give us better tools than what is available. I'm really bad at getting my point across aren't I?

Rogar
08-27-2010, 03:11 PM
See, that's just it. It's not a "game" if it allows no more than what levels on LBP1 does. Somehow you got the idea that "levels" in LBP2 = games just because you can link levels together.

That's like if I bought a DVD then super charged it and called it a blu-ray because you add more on it and do more with it than a regular DVD. It's still a DVD...

Well...that's probably a bad example...

Indeed, but it fits perfectly to demonstrate my point. :p Whether a movie is released on VHS, DVD or Bluray, it is still a movie. Whether a game is released on floppy disk (or 10), DVD, via the internet, or published in one LBP2 slot or 20, it is still a game.


I remember reading something that MM said during an interview. They wanted the community to create games on it's own merit. Like they would be a good as retail games basically.

So when I hear the word "game", I vision each "level" (game) in LBP2 to be comparable to a retail game and guess what? I haven't picked up one retail game that consisted of only 1 level! Whether it's an arcade game or a progressive game like an RPG.

So, as far as I'm concerned, LBP2 doesn't have games, just levels like LBP1...

I see you have a very narrow definition of game, one that is very different from what I think Mm's idea of a game is. I've read the article you linked to, but to me that doesn't say they actually want people to be able to build a full retail game in LBP2, let alone any game imaginable. It is clearly meant as an ideal, something you strive for in the design of LBP2 and its tools.

Anyway, if someone is mad enough to want to make an epic 100 hour game, persistence will be their first and foremost problem, because no one is going to sit through 100 hours in one go. And even then, space is not a problem, because they can just make more accounts to publish the rest of the levels on.

Nuclearfish
08-27-2010, 03:24 PM
What you said: It simply makes NO sense for a minigame to take up the same amount of server space as 20 hour multi-level 'game'

Why doesn't it make sense? Again look at steve biggs levels, or any of those "scary story-based levels and then look at some noobs level that consist of nothing but a badly crafted line of dark matter. Do they not take up the same amount of server space? Are you saying(or saying I'm saying) that just because a game is simple it shouldn't be considered a game?

What I'm saying is that we should all be given the same space (one publish slot, one thermo and an empty to level to build in) to use however we want. If I want to only make a small minigame, fine, that's my decision. But what you're suggesting is basically a way to 'cheat' the system and squeeze multiple levels into a single publish slot.


What you said: Now, I'm going to go back to playing Doodle Jump on my iPhone for a bit. But, oh wait... I suppose that doesn't count as a 'game' because it's only 59p and only has one level. Bugger.

Whoa whoa whoa! Now your confusing me. Where did I say a game HAD to be 20 hours long in order to be considered a game?

Well...


Games nowadays, whether they be platformers, shooters, RPGs, they all have one thing in common, they give us 10 to 60 hours of content in ONE DISC! (and yes even xbox's crappy DVDs still give a wealth of content.)

So when I hear the word "game", I vision each "level" (game) in LBP2 to be comparable to a retail game and guess what? I haven't picked up one retail game that consisted of only 1 level! Whether it's an arcade game or a progressive game like an RPG.

I know you didn't exactly say it has to be 20 hours to be considered a game, but I'll let that quote speak for itself.


I said that IF MM wanted creators to make a game that could be reviewed by professional critics, then they have to give us better tools than what is available.

Again, I say that we already have good enough tools. Surely, SURELY 20 level slots is enough? Yes, you may only be able to make one big 'game', but as I said in my last post, you have to choose which you'd rather make: one big game, or 20 smaller ones.

Besides, critics review all kinds of games, even small free ones.

comishguy67
08-27-2010, 03:39 PM
I see I'm very bad at getting my point across...


Indeed, but it fits perfectly to demonstrate my point. :p Whether a movie is released on VHS, DVD or Bluray, it is still a movie. Whether a game is released on floppy disk (or 10), DVD, via the internet, or published in one LBP2 slot or 20, it is still a game.

Actually, this is different from my metaphor. To my perception, your point was that a series of levels was a game. My point was that in LBP2, there shouldn't be levels, only games. When I said it was a bad metaphor, I meant it was hard to grasp.


I see you have a very narrow definition of game, one that is very different from what I think Mm's idea of a game is. I've read the article you linked to, but to me that doesn't say they actually want people to be able to build a full retail game in LBP2, let alone any game imaginable. It is clearly meant as an ideal, something you strive for in the design of LBP2 and its tools.

Ok...maybe it is just an ideal...but what do professional critics review? Retail games and Digital games right? So I was under the impression that MM would give creators the tools to do that. I thought they would put that little dream into effect.


What I'm saying is that we should all be given the same space (one publish slot, one thermo and an empty to level to build in) to use however we want. If I want to only make a small minigame, fine, that's my decision. But what you're suggesting is basically a way to 'cheat' the system and squeeze multiple levels into a single publish slot.

Well, not cheat perse, but instead of creators publishing "levels", they could publish "games" that consist of levels. I think that's pretty much what I was trying to say the whole time heh...My point in one sentence :D

Well...since I'm being double teamed by you and Rogar, I think this will be my last post :\

Nuclearfish
08-27-2010, 04:14 PM
Well, not cheat perse, but instead of creators publishing "levels", they could publish "games" that consist of levels. I think that's pretty much what I was trying to say the whole time heh...My point in one sentence :D

Well...since I'm being double teamed by you and Rogar, I think this will be my last post :\

Well, I know what you're trying to say. But it's just not a good solution. I'm happy with the current system, but I suppose that could be improved too.

My ideal solution would be to have no 'publish slots' as such, but an overall file size limit, such as 20mb. A full level may take up 1mb, but something a lot smaller may only take up 200kb. As long as you have room you can publish as many levels as you like.

I know that doesn't really solve the epic hours long 'game' problem, as you could still only publish 20 full levels, but it would be better for people like myself who prefer to make smaller levels or games.

Rabid-Coot
08-27-2010, 05:09 PM
You get what you're given if you don't like it tough!

schm0
08-27-2010, 05:47 PM
Well, I know what you're trying to say. But it's just not a good solution. I'm happy with the current system, but I suppose that could be improved too.

My ideal solution would be to have no 'publish slots' as such, but an overall file size limit, such as 20mb. A full level may take up 1mb, but something a lot smaller may only take up 200kb. As long as you have room you can publish as many levels as you like.

I know that doesn't really solve the epic hours long 'game' problem, as you could still only publish 20 full levels, but it would be better for people like myself who prefer to make smaller levels or games.

Personally, I would not like to sit and wait for a 20MB download to play a game. The 20 slot rule and thermo are designed to limit the space each user takes up on the LBP servers and to allow for quick, fun and easy gameplay. I think everyone here is thinking far too narrowly about the possibilities you can have with this game.

For one, the thermo is much more flexible and allows for more of one thing than another, unlike the current limitations it has with each "sub thermo" dictating to the creator, say for example, how many stickers you can have in a level. Secondly, if you truly have a solid game concept, you'll find a way to make it work, whether that be within a single level or stretched across many. There's really no reason for the creator who chooses the latter to receive more space than the former.

Nuclearfish
08-27-2010, 07:53 PM
Personally, I would not like to sit and wait for a 20MB download to play a game. The 20 slot rule and thermo are designed to limit the space each user takes up on the LBP servers and to allow for quick, fun and easy gameplay.

No, I don't mean increase the thermo or anything like that. What I'm suggesting is it'll be exactly how it is now, but you have more space to publish smaller levels.

For instance, I could probably quite easily fit two of my survival challenges within the same level if I wanted. For the sake of the argument, we'll asume a full thermo level is 1mb and each survival is 500kb. If I had a 20mb limit, I could either publish 20 full 1mb levels or 40 smaller 500kb survivals. I wouldn't be able to make a single 20mb because the thermo won't allow it, 1mb would be the maximum. ;)

It would save 'wasted space' that comes with making smaller levels, and would mean everybody gets the same amount of space regardless of what type of levels they choose to make.

Shadowcrazy
08-27-2010, 08:05 PM
Actually i think most levels are like 3-5mb large from backing up some levels

Nuclearfish
08-27-2010, 08:13 PM
Well, I was just using that as an example. :) The largest of my backed up levels is just over 1mb. But then again, my levels aren't very big anyway.

schm0
08-27-2010, 08:31 PM
No, I don't mean increase the thermo or anything like that. What I'm suggesting is it'll be exactly how it is now, but you have more space to publish smaller levels.

For instance, I could probably quite easily fit two of my survival challenges within the same level if I wanted. For the sake of the argument, we'll asume a full thermo level is 1mb and each survival is 500kb. If I had a 20mb limit, I could either publish 20 full 1mb levels or 40 smaller 500kb survivals. I wouldn't be able to make a single 20mb because the thermo won't allow it, 1mb would be the maximum. ;)

It would save 'wasted space' that comes with making smaller levels, and would mean everybody gets the same amount of space regardless of what type of levels they choose to make.

You forget that with each level there are millions of bytes of data that are tracked, such as comments, your level icon, plays, high scores, not to mention all the data needed to populate LBP.me. I understand the desire for more level slots, I just think it's not that stifling of a limitation, that's all.

Shadowcrazy
08-27-2010, 09:47 PM
I agree i think 20 is sufficient, and multiple PSN accounts make for great series since you can name your other PSN as the story too :)

Spyre-wolf
08-27-2010, 11:24 PM
well here's the way i look at it. most level/games will have "their day in the sun" then drop into the obscurity pit. once that happens you can delete the level, and if you inbox fills up with "WHA!! where is your game title "X" please reupload" - you can either put it up on line or send the level to the users wanting to play it.

- 20 levels max is good, stopping the new "stephanie_ravenses" trying shenanigans in our LBP2.

also delete and recreate or update. that's gonna be the key this time i think.

ChronoJoe
08-28-2010, 05:10 PM
Since most people don't care.

Let those that do, pay for level slots past 20.

I know if I hit 20 levels, and wanted more... I'd pay for more slots. I understand it consumes MMs server resources and I've already consumed a lot, to host my 20 levels... which is why I wouldn't have a problem paying for more.

$0.50 per extra slot? I'd pay it anyway, that's my personal opinion. Of course this is not my ideal preference, my ideal preference would be that I could have a many levels as my moon could hold. There's nothing to stop users hosting levels on alternative PSN accounts - and they will if they run out of space with no alternative, so they'll be consuming even more server resources with there profile data.