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OmegaSlayer
08-23-2010, 07:19 PM
Here's me complaining again about the Community Spotlight.

I really don't get how the Spotlights are managed.
I already complained once without any results, so I will do it again, and seriously I won't stop until things are clearer.
Mine is not a bash against spotlighters, it's only me questioning a system.
I know spotlighters have an hard time consuming work, still I think that the creators invest much more time, resources, passion and heart in their levels.

Doing the Spotlight is a service to the Community, so thanks, but avoiding some levels that would deserve to be spotlighted is just not right, doing the spotlight in some way is an hard responsability towards some people feelings.
We all know, that here some people take in consideration the levels only when they reach the cool pages, and some only when levels gets spotlighted.
Basically, a vast majority of the user base, and people that come here only as guest, only care to play spotlighted levels.
So eing spotlighted means that your levels gets the visibility that the creator's hard work deserve.

I've seen friends got upset and leaving the Community because they felt that the spotlights weren't right.
Mother Misty, Shenoa, Miglioshin to name few.
While some decided to just leave the Community but still create, there's people like Mig that put a stone on LBP, and won't create nor play it anymore, and let me say it, that's a great loss for the community, and in my personal case, the loss of one of the best, nicest and most competent guy around.
Plus I know of friends of friends that felt the same way.
People that say that the site has become biased.
I won't go as far as to say that the site is biased, even if it's clear that with the time an elite group has grown, and I often saw stuff that didn't deserved to be spotlighted, that got the spot just because of the name of its creator.
I've played FLAWED levels that BROKE during gameplay got into the spotlight.
Levels ripped from Japanese less known stuff, in a true spirit of creativity.

And today I see fenderjt's new level wooden buttons out of the spotlight.
I invite who is reading this post to check the comments from people who played the level in the thread.

I'll make a quick summary of quotes


Dragonvarsity
I played the level, the theme was great and I loved all the gameplay you put plus I thought the cog ride was awesome!
TonyTwoGunz
Theres a nice flow to it with non stop gameplay throughout thatll keep people interested.
Richasackboy
This was great! IMO, it's your best one yet: The music didn't quite fit for me, but the gameplay was brill, and the visuals were like cake.
CrazeAlec
Brilliant fun level! Everything looked like chocolate wood (Yay), the level had classic and new sorts of gameplay!
dsdavve
i had the plesure of playing this with both alec and omega and i really liked it ! the wood looks awsome next to the beige......
siberianninja
So I just tried this level out 10 minutes ago and was instantly hooked in the great gameplay.
Jakeputz
I really love this level, lots of fun and great flow.
Babydoll1970
I thought this was a fabulous level. Very different for you, which is a sign of your versatility. I just loved the look of it and the variety of platforming.
mistervista
Great fun level Fender.
The choice of materials is very nice and has a clean look to it.
olmco
Great job Fender
This was really fresh coming from you, where it seems the game play was core.
And once again you’ve pulled it off gracefully, the game play was seconded to none I couldn’t fault it even if I wanted to.
psychoticprankster
Ive played it 3 times now and with friends and everyone seemed to enjoy it
CCubbage
Just finished playing it several times. Wow - it's got quite a bit of well-thought-out gameplay, it's polished, and extremely fun. It felt like a bit of Spice & Co, a bit of JackOfCourse, and some other influences mixed in - but it also had a fresh feeling to it and several standout gameplay moments. I totally enjoyed it.
Morelestopher
Awesome level! I liked how you kept the level simple yet fun.
moonwire
I was stunned like :O
The gameplay was nice and flowingly and the visuals were eye-candy. I got through everything and enjoyed my stay.
assassinatorrfc
I loved the effect created by the different shades of the same colour and there were some great gameplay mechanics including something that looked mysteriously like pom's barrels
Joey
Played it a few days and really enjoyed it, Great level Fender
fun gameplay!
SalaciousCrumbcake
This level shows off really clean lines and the smooth, nicely paced platforming. It's a very smooth level, which looks incredible with the wood theme you went with.
I loved it!
eagerneph
This level was amazing!
JustinArt
Great platforming level FenderJT. The visuals looked neat as it is filled with as what the title mentioned and the gameplay is brilliant.
Sehven
I have to say that the visual style is not really to my taste (I like things to be flashy), but you really made it work and kept it consistent throughout. The platforming was solid and enjoyable and the whole level was just fun.
XXGrEEn0Xx
This is brilliant, it really keeps you satisfied as your always doing something
steve_big_guns
I played this with several of my friends, which all commented that its a great level. I like how you focused purly on gameplay with this level, which is a nice change.
NinjaMicWZ
the platforming was fantastic...really hot level.
grayspance
Okay, I played it a few days ago, and what can I say, That was one fun level!
Rustbukkit
Your choice of material and sticker colour are beautifully matched. Gameplay is simple and straight ahead platforming which I love just as much as a good story-based level.
jwwphotos
Lots of wood and buttons which is a cute combination. Loved your attempt at a strictly platforming sort of level for a nice change and was well done!
Jaeyden
Certainly was one of the best levels I played this week. I loved the theme, the look, the game play and the creativity. I really like where you went with this one Fenderjt. You got it spot on and left me wanting more. MMMMMMmmmmore.
Gravel
This is an incredibly designed platform that showcases all of your uniqueness as strengths.


This is a level that is pure, 100% fun, and gaming is fun, LBP is fun, so leaving the level out of the spotlight is a disservice for people that wants to enjoy the game.
A level that as 1 to 6 heart/play ratio, almost 2000 hearts in 2 week! (I know they don't authomatically make the quality of a level, but the ratio is quite impressive, I've seen very few levels better than this, ALL MINE from comphy is one, and we're talking about a top class level)
A level that clearly people has enjoyed a lot like you can read in the comments in the thread.
I read excited comments from well known, praised and respected creators like CCubbage, Jaeyden, mistervista, NinjaMicWZ, jwwphotos, steve_big_guns, olmco, TonyTwoGunz...
All those people are wrong?
They can't judge a level anymore?
So I really would like to know why the level didn't got spotlighted.
I would really like an answer
Really not even in the honourable mention, are you serious?

The spotlights can't go on avoiding levels like this that deserve to be played.
The system is broken, levels must be judged in a clearer way with a point system and with criteria clear to everyone.

And it's not only about fender, that's only the last thing happened for a level and a creator I know, but I heard lots of complaints in the forums, any time
And I don't want anymore nice people upset, bitter that will leave the Community

Morgana25
08-23-2010, 07:33 PM
If fender wants to know why I'd be happy to send her a pm to explain it to her.

I've already explained our process too many times to type it out again.

Being a well known creator isn't enough to get your level in spotlight. I've had several not make it and if you look around you'll find other examples too.

As for people leaving the community because of spotlight.... really? That's the only reason they created or played LBP, for spotlight recognition? Sad.

jump_button
08-23-2010, 07:47 PM
Dont take things to serious if a level get a spotlight or not, Dont mean it is or is not a good level. And anyone that on LBPC just for spotlights they're here for the wrong reasons.

OmegaSlayer
08-23-2010, 07:50 PM
First, I'm not fender and I'm not talking for her, this is just the latest time.
So if she wants to know she'll ask you via pm or in whatever way she would like.

If you had to explain the process an incredible annoying amount of times, dear Morgana, it's just because it's FOGGY.
There's nothing clear, it's everything too objective.
And there's no thread that says what is the minimum criteria to reach the spotlight.
It's more of a year and a half that I'm here and I still haven't seen this kind of thread that I think would made things clear to people, avoiding complains from whoever.

It's not sad at all.
How many levels did you release?
A tennish it seems.
You're skilled enough to have built with fairly easyness top stuff, but not everyone is skilled in the same way.
There's people that invest a lot of time, free time, and they don't play their levels over and over, they share them, they put themselves under a pubblic judgement, with passion and a generous spirit for other's fun and enjoyment.
So yeah, I understand them and not judge them quickly.
It seems that you are talking a bit too easy on this argument.

The master mind
08-23-2010, 07:53 PM
Im in the same vote as jump_button in the spotlight stuff

Pattington_Bear
08-23-2010, 07:55 PM
I don't particularly care about being spotlighted, although it is a huge honor for the levels that do.

I wouldn't worry to much about this "issue" because to be quite honest it isn't that important. A level doesn't have to be spotlighted to prove that it's good enough to play.

Alec
08-23-2010, 08:00 PM
As long as other people enjoy my levels I'm happy! I see the spotlight as a plus.:)

Silverleon
08-23-2010, 08:00 PM
So a level didn't get spotlighted, so what?
Its not the end of the world, so some people didn't like it, so it got some bad comments, so what?

You like your level, keep it and keep building, stopping because someone else didn't like it is rather dumb...
Its YOUR game, doing stuff because of other's decisions is not acceptable, if you quit because someone didn't like your level, then maybe you didn't really like the game after all, and were just looking for attnetion. :/

Remember people should build because they WANT to, if people happen to like your level, then aright, good for you, bonus!
If not the oh well, too bad, move on, or keep working of your level.

Like Morgana said, people building JUST to get on the spotlight and quitting if they don't get there IS pretty sad, since its no different than Spammers on the Cool Pages, you're just looking for attention.
Who knows, maybe we are better off without that kind of people in the community.

Which brings me to another point, the pressure people put on these "good creators."
Jus because they're good, doesn't mean they SHOULD play, or that they should be forced to make new levels just because they can make them, sure its a waste of talent, but its THEIR lives, not yours, they're the ones taking the time to make the stuff, not you, so if they wanna quit, let them, forcing someone to stay is waaay worse...

Also, plenty levels are flaw and broken wether they're in the spotlight or not, trust me, and that has little to do wit it.

Look, there are A LOT of good/ fun levels out there, but there are many ther are really good/ fun, doesn't mean that the unspotlighted levels are bad or worse, just that ther were various factors that kept it outside, remember how there are waaay too many levels with a chance for spotlight, tho not all can make it, who knows, maybe it was a close call and almost got in the spotlight, but didn't for a small detail, its still good no?


Besides, if these levels are as good as you say, then there shouldn't be a need for spotlighting them, according to you, they should be so good, they should be fine withut the spotligh, don't you think?

rtm223
08-23-2010, 08:02 PM
Well, this'll be fun.... *sigh*

Every time this comes up, the subject of bias comes up and every time it's pointed out that often, most spotlights in fact, complete unknowns get it, and often famous creators, and friends of the site staff and friends of the spotlighters don't. But you ignore it. I don't know why, but you do.

I don't think it's even worth having this conversation again.... There is no bias. And at the end of the day, you're never going to believe that, because you have it stuck in your head that there is and you refuse to listen to reason. The only evidence you have of bias is that levels you like didn't get in... But think about it, it's not like fender is somehow being victimised here. She's had a couple of spotlights in the past and will probably have some in the future. This one didn't and I don't know why exactly, but this is not an example of bias. Yet that's the idea you have in your head, and no amount of discussion will change that because you guys have decided the spotlight is broken. Doesn't matter that all the evidence you have rests on subjective opinion or simple fantasy and every time you bring this up with one or two examples there are always as many counter examples and fundamental flaws in the logic, you're stubborn enough to continue to believe it no matter what the truth is.

And for someone who talks about not upsetting people, you should see what this **** has done to morgana over the months. Of all the people who suffered because of the spotlight, she has by far suffered the most: after putting her heart and soul into the project, dedicating countless hundreds of hours into playing levels, picking up the slack whenever there was any and absolutely being the driving force behind one of the greatest features of this site and she's had to take so much crap for that sacrifice that I'm amazed she lasted this long. You forget, everytime you pull out these completely unfounded personal attacks against the spotlight crew, that those are real people you are insulting.

The only way to ensure that the spotlight never upsets anyone again is to take it off the site. That's it. As far as I'm concerned, the nature of the spotlight and the way it is run is not up for discussion - y'all don't ever listen and you've never had any worthwhile input on how to make it better, so seeing that all you want to do is attack people, I don't see why we should waste our time discussing it with you again. This thread is pointless.

If you wanna move to take an anonymous vote as to who wants to take the spotlight down and who wants to keep it, then by all means do so.


@fender, I hope you understand that none of this is your fault and no one is going to hold anything against you if this thread goes a little bit less than pleasant.

OmegaSlayer
08-23-2010, 08:12 PM
Dont take things to serious if a level get a Spotlight or not, Dont mean it is or is not a good level.

Then the whole point of the spotlight is completely missed.
As I said it's a service, a cool great service (and again thanks for that), offered to the Community.
But I hope they don't miss anything.

Do you play every level jump?
Unfortunately I don't.
I play my friends' level, what people in the Community brings to the lights, stuff in the recomemndation thread, stuff I see in people's hearted list, and I know that I lose a lot of good stuff.

I repeat myself, people can get hurt, I got hurt when my level didn't reach the spotlight, I put in it 3 months of works, every bit of free time, it works fine, flawleslly, it's a decent level, a bit hard, not for everyone out there, and in a year I gathered 1011 plays, 98 complete walkthroughs and 63 hearts, that means that who played the level to the end fairly enjoyed it.
I've friends in my list that didn't even played the level, because supposedly a level that is not spotlighted is not a level that MUST be played.
Sure a mention would have mean a boost.

Most people in the Community here rightly have a great consideration for Community Spotlights.
And I also feel that some of the old spirit of the forums is vanishing, it was more friendly, everyone helped each other more.
Did you ever saw level threads that efore being spotlighted had just 2 or 3 replies and then they skyrocket in the cool page section after the spotlight.
Lockstitch's "A Realm Forgotten" is one of the latest example perhaps.

Fenderjt
08-23-2010, 08:19 PM
First of all i appreciate Omega for mentioning my level. I understand that many levels will not be spotlighted and i have to admit i was slightly gutted to see mine wasnt. Maybe next time!

Everyone has their own opinion and this thread looks like its turning for the worst. I have just found this thread and just wanna make it clear that im not involved lol!

Whats said has been said and maybe this should end here..



No hating please

OmegaSlayer
08-23-2010, 08:22 PM
You know what rtm, I'm the one that speaks, there are others that just don't want to appear stubborn like me.
I speak to try to change things for the better, it's my nature, that you like it or not.
And everyone has heart, Morgana, the creators, and we're lucky enough that they put in what they do for free.
And it's a thing that I appreciate it, no matter what you may think.
And I proved with the quotes that it's not a level I only liked, even other people like you may see.
So spotlight should take care even of other people's opinion.

Since I think that this place is democratic enough for everyone to say what they think, I said mine, then decide if you want to change the spotlight or not, if you want an anonymous poll to see if people want to publically know the rules of the spotlight, whatever.

I think it's worth a try, but I only suggest thing.
Anyway for respect to fender I'll close it here.
Sorry for having get you involved.

JspOt
08-23-2010, 08:22 PM
My thoughts on the spotlight:
I haven't put any levels in the level showcase yet, but I am going to publish one soon. I KNOW it's probably not going to catch any kind of spotlight. But, not getting a spotlight just encourages to try harder, learn more, and work until you get even better and better.It promotes self improvement.
In my opinion, that is something good for the community, not injustice.
Now, I think we should lock this before it gets out of hand, no?
Because I really don't think this thread is promoting a friendly enviorment and atmosphere.

Richasackboy
08-23-2010, 08:35 PM
The Spotlight team should be expanded (this has bothered me for a while... There only seem to be 7 people on a community spotlight at a time).
I've seen levels that get spotlighted and that's it; no more replies. I also can't help feeling that the personality is diminishing somewhat, even though I've only been here for 7/8 months. Things seem to be getting more mechanical, obnoxious and overall, less friendly. Please sink down to the level of the members, all you great creators, so that everyone can have a fun time. It seems that levels by famous creators get a lot more replies to their threads (not surprisingly), but mostly from their own friends.
I'll stress again that the spotlight team needs to be expanded. If it keeps going on with only a few people out of the 10000 members on the team, how will they possibly manage to cope? Especially since the number of levels being released is going up and up.

ARD
08-23-2010, 08:39 PM
I never look at the spotlights...I mean occasionally I might just scan through but not often. But I know none of my levels have never got in,but TBF I only have 1 'proper proper' level (*cough cough* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDyHCx1bW1c)) which didn't get spotlighted but I'm still here.

I guess I know how you'd feel though, if you saw the spotlight as like the only place anyone looks for levels. I mean, you all know how I feel about how the golf contest was judged (or not judged). In fact, you'd be surprised just how many times I've been told 'you should have won that', and yah, I, and several others, screwed on LBW about it but at the end of the day there's nothing you can really do. If you got spotlighted great, if you didn't, who cares? If you think it deserves to be spotlighted then you obviously like the level which is all that matters.

/load of crap sorry, lack of sleep >.>

mrsupercomputer
08-23-2010, 08:49 PM
The system is broken, levels must be judged in a clearer way with a point system and with criteria clear to everyone.

The system is not broken, it's just not perfect. And as long as people have differing opinions of what makes a good level, it never will be. Personally, there are a couple levels in the spotlight that I'd bump and replace with Fender's, but that is MY opinion and opinions differ, simple as that.

Richasackboy
08-23-2010, 08:50 PM
The system is not broken, it's just not perfect. And as long as people have differing opinions of what makes a good level, it never will be. Personally, there are a couple levels in the spotlight that I'd bump and replace with Fender's, but that is MY opinion and opinions differ, simple as that.

Meaning...
We need more opinions. ;)

mrsupercomputer
08-23-2010, 08:53 PM
Meaning...
We need more opinions. ;)

I disagree, but that's just my opinion. ;)

jump_button
08-23-2010, 08:57 PM
Then the whole point of the spotlight is completely missed.
As I said it's a service, a cool great service (and again thanks for that), offered to the Community.
But I hope they don't miss anything.

Spotlight is not a judgment of a level, And im sure that every spotlight is hard to pick and im sure the team don't do it lightly.


Do you play every level jump?
Unfortunately I don't.
I play my friends' level, what people in the Community brings to the lights, stuff in the recomemndation thread, stuff I see in people's hearted list, and I know that I lose a lot of good stuff.

You cant play everything and you will miss levels right now if you play alllevels on level you will die long befor geting to end of them all, so just enjoy what you do play.


I repeat myself, people can get hurt, I got hurt when my level didn't reach the spotlight, I put in it 3 months of works, every bit of free time, it works fine, flawleslly, it's a decent level, a bit hard, not for everyone out there, and in a year I gathered 1011 plays, 98 complete walkthroughs and 63 hearts, that means that who played the level to the end fairly enjoyed it.

well we all put in alot of time im sorry but that dont give you a free pass


I've friends in my list that didn't even played the level, because supposedly a level that is not spotlighted is not a level that MUST be played.
Sure a mention would have mean a boost.

Most people in the Community here rightly have a great consideration for Community Spotlights.
And I also feel that some of the old spirit of the forums is vanishing, it was more friendly, everyone helped each other more.
Did you ever saw level threads that efore being spotlighted had just 2 or 3 replies and then they skyrocket in the cool page section after the spotlight.
Lockstitch's "A Realm Forgotten" is one of the latest example perhaps.

I play alot of levels without or befor it get a spotlight they nothing stopping everyone from doing so

Incinerator22
08-23-2010, 09:07 PM
I don't play spotlights often. Their expectations of quality are more lenient than mine. As in, I will get bored unless the level is one of the best of the best. I'm just more of a creator than a player. That doesn't really have to do with the thread, and I hate to admit that I don't often take advantage of the spotlight team's work, but I'm just throwing it out there.

Since the subject of spotlights is out, I want to complain about a few minor things that would make the spotlight threads better in my opinion:

-Uneven numbers of reviews.
I don't know what's up with this. I remember being told it was in issue of how busy the spotlighters were. I remember when there was a level that dominated the cool pages and was playtested by most of the spotlighters because the level maker was a friend of many of them. It had reviews from every member of the team. There were other levels on that spotlight that had 2 reviews as oppose to 5. If the levels in a spotlight are past a certain point of quality and not judged from there on out, I think they are all on the same playing field and deserve equal reviews.

-The way reviews are handled.
Usually, reviews just praise the good parts of levels. I think reviews could add a note or two about "not to expect good gameplay" or "be prepared for glitches."

-Preparing spotlights for the public.
I think the spotlight team should give more feedback on where to improve a level that is buggy, glitchy, or an easy effort away from a much better level, but otherwise spotlight-quality. I've played quite a few spotlighted levels with terribly broken gameplay or badly written text.

Note - I don't mean to offend any spotlight team member. I might as well say this since I haven't made a comment on a spotlight thread in a while -- Thank you! :D

This is definitely one of the highlights of the site, one of the things that makes the difference of whether this place is just another fan forum or a crucial element to the enjoyment of LBP. It ranks up there with the Creator Spotlight and friendly community.

Fishrock123
08-23-2010, 09:29 PM
@OmegaSlayer - if people wanted to play Fender's level, all they needed to do was go to LBP cool pages.

I'm pretty sure the point of the spotlight was to point out less known great levels, that may normally not be seen much.

(no offense to anyone.)

OmegaSlayer
08-23-2010, 09:33 PM
What I haven't been clear about maybe and I found annoying in silverleon's and rtm's answer is the cold heart in the answer.
I respect them and their opinions, but I don't share them at all, and I somehow fear them.
I may sound stupid but I fear the cold heart in the world, I fear things being mechanic and I won't ever care to be called stubborn or whatever.
"You didn't get into the spotlight, so what i people don't appreciate your stuff?"
I don't call that self confidence, I call it really cold heart.
This is a game that goes eyond the purpose of a game, this is a way to express ourselves.
I may be a romantic git, so you may laugh at me but I won't care and won't get angry for that.

When I play one of your levels jump, I see a part of your soul in it, one of your visions, there's heart in that, that's not only a level, that's fine art.
I don't see pistons, pulleys, pixels and polygons.
And I think that you, like everyone else, are pleased when your message reaches the most hearts possible, since that's the dream of every artist, like we all are in our little.
I just played Icey's Nocturne, that's art, and there's heart in that level. How would she feel if her work, her creature wouldn't be recognized?
We don't get money from what we do, we only hope to reach the most people possible and give them a smile, 10 minutes of fun, some enjoyment, move their feelings.
Community spotlights have always helped this, I only ask that they avoid to be ruthlessly mechanic.
Is that SO WRONG?
And sorry mrsupercomputer, for me what is purely mechanic and has no heart is BROKEN.
Nothing is neither perfect nor meant to be perfect.
It's nonsense that if 7 people vote from 1 to 10, if the level reaches score 60 is a spotlight but not with a 58 or 59.
There's no heart in it and I can't help but not liking it and I feel the urge to voice it.

And despite what people around may think, I say it for the Community and not for myself.

@incenerinator
I appreciate a lot what you say, I share it 100%

@fishrock
Perhaps a lot of good levels never reaches the first 5 cool pages, where you find more than often only bomb/shark/poo survivals.
I never saw any astounding Japanese level on the cool pages, you must find those pearls through friends, friends of friends and friends of friends of friends LOL

This forum is awesome since he promotes with a lot of effort the quality instead of the quantity, so leaving out something that has high quality is a loss for the forum/site.

Again, instead of calling me stubborn, dreamer or whatever, let's try to sit down, be mature and try to make things better and more fair for everyone.

Silverleon
08-23-2010, 09:35 PM
Ah, so this is the REAL why you made the thread...




I repeat myself, people can get hurt, I got hurt when my level didn't reach the spotlight, I put in it 3 months of works, every bit of free time, it works fine, flawleslly, it's a decent level, a bit hard, not for everyone out there, and in a year I gathered 1011 plays, 98 complete walkthroughs and 63 hearts, that means that who played the level to the end fairly enjoyed it.

You know...if people liked it and had 1k+ plays, then why do you even wanna get spotlighted?
Sp your friends didn't play it?
Whatever, 10 people who didn't play, oh boo hoo....


And just because you worked hard on a level doesn't mean no one else dide, A LOT of people work hard on their level, that doesn't mean they're instantly the best out there, otherwise 99% of the levels would be in the spotlight.

You want a public vote on Spotlight levels?

HA!
You thought its biased not, imagined when friends can vote for your levels to get spotlighted... :rolleyes:
And then of corse you'll make another thread complaining about the same because you didn't get into the spotlight again, and gonna ask for a more concentrated group of people to do the job.

Cycle re-starts, same thing happens, and so on....


Look, like I said, everyone puts a good effortin into those levels, so don't expect a pity win with that, ok?

mrsupercomputer
08-23-2010, 09:46 PM
And sorry mrsupercomputer, for me what is purely mechanic and has no heart is BROKEN.

Could you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean when you say mechanical? And how would you create a system with more 'heart'?

OmegaSlayer
08-23-2010, 09:53 PM
Really I can't see the reason of the sarcasm 'Leon, does it makes you feel the alpha male?
Do you feel cool just because you joked on that?

And maybe you're lucky enough that you have all friends that have machine-like feelings or are top creators if no one of them felt bad when one of their level didn't do well.
Yes, everyone works hard and no has anything granted, and it's called life, we live in it.
Deciding the outcome with numbers, in my opinion is not the right thing.

Really I would try to keep the discussion mature and I'm not attacking people, so if you have something intelligent to say please keep posting, or otherwise avoid it.
Thanks

@mrsupercomputer
not all the levels are the same and they can't be judged in the same way
I mentioned Icey's Nocturne (but it's true even for her other levels), it's a masterpiece, wonderfully looking, touching, but gameplaywise is null
steve_big_gung portal level is impressive by the logic side, but it's not a level, still is a thing that has to be seen and brought to the community attention
Gek83's levels have the best looking characters I've seen on LBP, but the platforming is awkward to say the least, but people IN THIS COMMUNITY, people who loves every aspect of the game should see them, and I think that the Spotlight team should spot not only the whole package levels, but also the level that are good in accomplishing really well even just a simple thing.
They should mention it in the mini reviews clearly and that's the deal.

I picked fender's level because it's one of the most pure fun levels released in the latest 2 months, it might not met the visual tastes, it's not a logic achievement, but it's 10 minutes of great fun that should have been brought up to the attention of the community.
There are things that can't be just judged with numerical votes

fullofwin
08-23-2010, 10:01 PM
Everyone that wants to have "opinions" on the spotlight should pick a week and try to play EVERY level posted to the level showcase...I think you'll come away with a new appreciation of how much effort goes into these and how difficult it is. I have no idea how many levels are posted in the typical week...but I bet 90% aren't any fun to play!

Incinerator22: Suggesting more detail be added about the spotlighted entries is great but not realistic...you'd need to keep copious notes on every level played (because you won't know until the end which ones made the cut).

OmegaSlayer: You seem to have a mistaken belief that getting spotlighted is a magic ticket to thousands of plays and a spot on the LBP cool levels...I can assure you that's not going to happen without a lot of republishing.

ARD: Golf contest, lol! My crown sure is shiny!

Incinerator22
08-23-2010, 10:09 PM
Ah, so this is the REAL why you made the thread...

No, it's clear to me that OmegaSlayer only made this thread because he cares, and you shouldn't make accusations like that.


You know...if people liked it and had 1k+ plays, then why do you even wanna get spotlighted?
Sp your friends didn't play it?
Whatever, 10 people who didn't play, oh boo hoo....

A spotlight brings a level to the attention of forum members, which most people agree is more important than hundreds of thousands of plays that would mainly come from cool page dwellers.

OmegaSlayer
08-23-2010, 10:11 PM
Fullofwin/Elvenbane, I want to share some really cool RangerZero philosophy:

Tks again, thank you all!! It's so awesome that many old members of the community are still here participating, playing, and sharing. You guys all make my day when I realise you had fun because of me. Only a couple of comments and I feel so gratified!! Like each level that I publish, I always have that fear you know, that fear to be alone and that nobody might like what you expressed. I suppose it's a common feel for artists and/or designers. Anyhow, this game is magic. No other game can bring me such positive feelings!!
That's it!
Is this man an idiot for what he said? Is it stupid to crave to reach the spotlight and more people?
The vast majority of people here doesn't care of number of plays out there, but that most of the "friends", people that share the same passion acknowledge the efforts.
That's why Community Spotlight is so important.
I wouldn't stay up late fighting alone with each one of you if I thought that Community Spotlights were a stupid thingy and Spotlighters idiots.

Silverleon
08-23-2010, 10:22 PM
Really I can't see the reason of the sarcasm 'Leon, does it makes you feel the alpha male?
Do you feel cool just because you joked on that?
Oh no, you've exposed me, my life is ruined! T_T
Nah, but I do recall you saying "You know what rtm, I'm the one that speaks, there are others that just don't want to appear stubborn like me.I speak to try to change things for the better, it's my nature, that you like it or not."
I thought someone who :didn't care if he semd stubborn, the one "that speaks" wouldnd mind having a discussion with another one...
So, I decided not to hold back on jokes and sarcasm in here, that's all there is to it.

And maybe you're lucky enough that you have all friends that have machine-like feelings or are top creators if no one of them felt bad when one of their level didn't do well. Wouldn't really call them "machine like feelings," just mature enough not to care what some total stranger says about our levels over the net too much and obssess about it. :p
"Oh no, a grpup of people didn't like my level, boo hoo, I don't care if other 500 liked it, 6 didn't so I mutb be terrible, ohh the pain and horror"
-_-

Yes, everyone works hard and no has anything granted, and it's called life, we live in it. You say that yet here you are...
Deciding the outcome with numbers, in my opinion is not the right thing.
Then pleas oh wise person, enlighten us with your mystical flawless ways to do it.

Look, obviously there's not a "flawlwss system" this seems to be the least flawed so far, if you got a better idea of a less-flawed system then by all means say it, put it in site feed back or something.
BUT don't just go complaining "oh they system sucks, I don't know of a better way to do it, but it sucks." -_-

Really I would try to keep the discussion mature and I'm not attacking people, so if you have something intelligent to say please keep posting, or otherwise avoid it.
Thanks
"attacking someone" and "intelligent posts" are rather relative terms, don't you think?
I don't really know when to considere something "attacking someone" and not my intentions in my posts most of the time. (I don't think i was attacking you, not intended to "attack" whatever that means)
And I could consider certain posts "intelligent" others may not, and vice-versa, they may consider some intelligent and I may not, so its all relative really, so what would you consider an "intelligent post?



There, answered. :)

rtm223
08-23-2010, 10:28 PM
There are things that can't be just judged with numerical votes

So, give us the magical formula that you use... You know, the one that picks out the "correct" levels to go into the spotlight, the one that you use to give us the examples of why the spotlight is wrong :rolleyes:

What's really irritating me here is that all you have is criticism, none of it constructive and all of it confused and contradictory. In the OP you say you want more defined criteria that go into selecting the spotlight, then you say you want it less "mechanical and heartless". Which is it?

Oh and by the way... Feel free to start up your own recommendations service. You're welcome to run that however you like. I always find it weird that I suggest that every time, but the people who want to tell the spotlighters they are doing a bad job never actually want to show us all how it's done.... They simply want to complain. Strange that, don'tcha think....


Other things:
In terms of the "glitched" levels, it's been said a million times before (as has all of this thread, but whatever, let's go round and round, ad nauseum, I'm sure you'll just have forgotten again by next week anyways) that if the spotlight team don't see the level breaking, they can't take that into account. It's hard enough getting through the mass of levels (and yes, whoever said 90% of them aren't fun is 100% correct), let alone doing detailed bug hunting in all of them. Sorry, but that is the nature of the beast - you can't take into account what you don't see.

And as for the lack of comments, I'll give you the reasons why I personally didn't comment on every level when I was in the team:
I didn't like the level that much. The others did so it got in. Which is fair, I'm not arrogant enough to think that my vote against should be enough to veto the level.
I didn't get chance to play it. Often for levels released later in the week. If the rest of the team were raving about it, I'd typically skip past it and go to other levels on the list that didn't have as many plays, to keep things fair.
Sometimes I sat there and couldn't think how to sum up the level, just couldn't find the words to do it justice, or all I could come up with was what other's had already written. So I didn't.


We have no requirement for a spotlighter to write a review of every level, and sometimes it's not possible to. I don't think it really matters.

fullofwin
08-23-2010, 10:28 PM
Is it stupid to crave to reach the spotlight and more people?

I sure hope not...it's a great honor having a level recognized and chosen for the spotlight. Having my Jabberwocky level spotlighted when I first joined LBPC seriously meant more than winning a crown in ARD's favorite flawed contest.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that getting spotlighted isn't cool or desirable...it's when you impugn the process that people take umbrage...

The current process worked out just fine for me...I'd say it's fair enough.

Fishrock123
08-23-2010, 10:35 PM
Back to what I said - people should still check the cool pages a few seconds when they come on each day if they want to see if there is anything to play - after all, a small amount of good levels do end up there.

TheCountessZ
08-23-2010, 10:50 PM
I sure hope not...it's a great honor having a level recognized and chosen for the spotlight. Having my Jabberwocky level spotlighted when I first joined LBPC seriously meant more than winning a crown in ARD's favorite flawed contest.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that getting spotlighted isn't cool or desirable...it's when you impugn the process that people take umbrage...

The current process worked out just fine for me...I'd say it's fair enough.

Well good for you! I'm sure you do think it worked out fine for you.

Incinerator22
08-23-2010, 10:57 PM
"Oh no, a grpup of people didn't like my level, boo hoo, I don't care if other 500 liked it, 6 didn't so I mutb be terrible, ohh the pain and horror"
-_-

Can't you deal with peoples' opinions? I know you love to make jokes when you disagree with someone, but you should understand that certain people make levels to make others happy, and care about how they are received. It doesn't cross into the line of pessimism, it's just natural disappointment.

There are better ways of getting your opinion across than making fun of what you disagree with.


We have no requirement for a spotlighter to write a review of every level, and sometimes it's not possible to. I don't think it really matters.

You've made good points, but I think it does. The spotlight threads consist of the levels' mini-profiles and then the reviews. The reviews are a major part of it all.

If a spotlight team member consistently doesn't have the time or vocabulary to write a review, I don't think he or she is worthy of being a spotlight member. I remember when it was rare when someone left or joined the spotlight team, but it seems to happen all the time now. We did well without any complaints when we first had only 4 or 5 people.


I didn't like the level that much. The others did so it got in. Which is fair, I'm not arrogant enough to think that my vote against should be enough to veto the level.

So far, the spotlight team has created spotlights and "also from the showcase" recommendations. I don't think it's fair for the contest to keep going on how many reviews the level gets. That's where the spotlight team has set the line: That each level has achieved spotlight status and is on equal ground with the others. Asking for an equal number of reviews for each level is ridiculous, yes, but I don't see why they can't at least be more spread-out without too much hassle. If a level comes in late and only 1 or 2 people have time to review it, I think it should be held back for the next spotlight.

jackofcourse
08-23-2010, 10:59 PM
Here's me complaining again about the Community Spotlight.
I've seen friends got upset and leaving the Community because they felt that the spotlights weren't right. Mother Misty, Shenoa, Miglioshin to name few.


If this is true then it's a sad sad time. I think most of us have had a level that hasn't made the spotlight, of course it's disappointing, but does it really matter that much? If that is all a creator is creating for then I can't say I am sorry to see them go, regardless of how good the levels are.


The spotlights can't go on avoiding levels like this that deserve to be played.

Avoiding? The spotlight crew play EVERY level that's put in the showcase. If they choose not to put a level in there then that is their call. It is a totally subjective process, they do their very best to keep it fair, hence why they have a number of spotlighters in order to get a good round number of opinions on each level, but at the end of the day, it is still an opinion and therefore there is always going to be someone that disagrees with them. That's life.


The system is broken, levels must be judged in a clearer way with a point system and with criteria clear to everyone.




And sorry mrsupercomputer, for me what is purely mechanic and has no heart is BROKEN.



There are things that can't be just judged with numerical votes

Okay, so you want a system whereby each level is judged by a point system, but you don't want a system that's mechanical? Possibly the most contradictory thing ever to be posted on this site there, Omega.

You are saying that the spotlighters need to use their hearts and appreciate the work that goes in by the creators, but also saying that everything should be laid out as to why that level was picked...as a 'romantic' surely you're aware that heart isn't something that can be rationalised and explained?

It seems like you aren't sure of your own argument and are simply posting because you don't like something, yet you don't really have any real idea what the problem is. The answer is that there isn't a problem, it's just that the whole procedure is subjective, therefore it can never be perfect.




-Uneven numbers of reviews.
I don't know what's up with this. I remember being told it was in issue of how busy the spotlighters were. I remember when there was a level that dominated the cool pages and was playtested by most of the spotlighters because the level maker was a friend of many of them. It had reviews from every member of the team. There were other levels on that spotlight that had 2 reviews as oppose to 5. If the levels in a spotlight are past a certain point of quality and not judged from there on out, I think they are all on the same playing field and deserve equal reviews.


In an ideal world this is very true. But let's face it, the spotlight crew do this for free, and unfortunately people have real life commitments. I'm sure they'd love to give each level an equal amount of review time. They do an immense job as it is and we should be thankful for it. I'm sure if we all start paying them $5 each a month they'd be happy to give each level the same amount of reviews and exactly the same word count. How's that sound? ;)

midnight_heist
08-23-2010, 11:04 PM
Dang. I don't have time to reply to this thread right now.
I also want to throw in my opinion, so please don't lock this. Give it a chance.

mistervista
08-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Well we all know the spotlighht has never worked properly or been fair because it's always down to the preferences of individual judges and you know as well as I do that sometimes a spotlighted level has been played by only 1 judge. Therefore you cannot possibly say that said level is one of the best out there.

The present system is quite simply extremely divisive to the community. The only fair way to present levels to the community is to make 1 thread listing all newly showcased levels so they are all easily accessible and let the community play them for themselves and let them decide which they think are great and which aren't.


Originally posted by jackofcourse:
I'm sure if we all start paying them $5 each a month they'd be happy to give each level the same amount of reviews and exactly the same word count. How's that sound?


So you're saying if we want a fair spotlight system we have to pay the judges? Well I guess coming from you I'd expect nothing less !

comphermc
08-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Hey, Omega... do me a favor. Post your own spotlight of all the levels that have been published within the last, say, 48 hours. I'll give you two weeks to do it... that way you have an edge on what the spotlight team deals with. Post that up with thoughtful comments on each of your chosen levels. But remember, be mechanical in your choices... or choose the levels that your heart told you to... I'm not sure which, just do it.

Then, when you publish that, I'll come by and tell you that some of the levels you chose just weren't good enough. I'll make a farce of the work you did and the work of the creators in question. I'll also point out levels that I feel should be in your spotlight and condemn the whole thing accordingly. Next, I will refuse to listen to your explanations on how your selections were based on your own opinions and impressions. If you don't choose the exact levels that I had chosen, I will come on here and post hateful, disrespectful comments, making you feel like utter crap.

And then, I want you to turn around and do it again. How's that sound? Peachy?

Ok, good.


Well we all know the spotlighht has never worked properly or been fair because it's always down to the preferences of individual judges and you know as well as I do that sometimes a spotlighted level has been played by only 1 judge.

Lol. I love it. This whole thing again...

You've gotten it exactly right! We were hoping that you'd never find out about our secret! How did you know? Was it just your baseless guess stated as fact? Did you just get lucky? Oh, right... you've been making things up again. :rolleyes:


The only fair way to present levels to the community is to make 1 thread listing all newly showcased levels so they are all easily accessible and let the community play them for themselves and let them decide which they think are great and which aren't.

And this sounds like a wonderful idea... it's almost like we have that system in place already. But you know what would make it better? Giving each level their own thread as well... yeah, that would be cool. Then people can leave feedback on the specific levels that they played. It's weird... not sure how we hadn't thought of that before.

jackofcourse
08-23-2010, 11:23 PM
The present system is quite simply extremely divisive to the community. The only fair way to present levels to the community is to make 1 thread listing all newly showcased levels so they are all easily accessible and let the community play them for themselves and let them decide which they think are great and which aren't.

Except this is the total opposite of what the spotlight is trying to achieve. The whole point of it is to highlight great levels for the community so people can use their precious free time playing levels they'd enjoy.


So you're saying if we want a fair spotlight system we have to pay the judges? Well I guess coming from you I'd expect nothing less !

No, what I'm saying is that people should be more considerate about the effort that the spotlight put in. People seriously have no idea, as Comphy just posted...you go and try and play all the levels and review them...and then come back and see how it feels when you have people bashing the work you have done, for the good of the community, out of the kindness of your heart.


Well I guess coming from you I'd expect nothing less !

I'll let that slide because I'm an adult, (and it makes no sense) ;)

Fenderjt
08-23-2010, 11:24 PM
ok maybe we should lock this now, we all have our own opinions and it will stay that way. Theres no need for more agro because its getting boring now and we are just covering the same points again and again. Im off to bed! Everyone go make a cuppa tea, im out!

mistervista
08-23-2010, 11:27 PM
You've gotten it exactly right! We were hoping that you'd never find out about our secret! How did you know? Was it just your baseless guess stated as fact? Did you just get lucky? Oh, right... you've been making things up again. :rolleyes:



And this sounds like a wonderful idea... it's almost like we have that system in place already. But you know what would make it better? Giving each level their own thread as well... yeah, that would be cool. Then people can leave feedback on the specific levels that they played. It's weird... not sure how we hadn't thought of that before.

Well I wondered when the compherm sarcasm would rear it's ugly head again. You really should try understanding what you're reading before posting your sarcastic replies. To answer your first point: Just read the judges summation on the spotlighted levels and you'll see, as everyone else can, that some levels aren't played by more than 1 or 2 judges. They've even commented at times that they didn't have time to play them so you don't need to take my word for it.

As for your second point: I stressed quite clearly that the idea was to help people find them all in one thread. You know as well as I do that many level showcase threads get ignored and lost in the depths of time because they aren't stickied to the front page.

Go on comph, let's hear your sarcastic reply to that one!

Incinerator22
08-23-2010, 11:29 PM
Two slightly random questions for the spotlight team:

Can we make v0rtex's abbreviated spotlight list official? I've always found it very useful, and his lists always gets thanked a lot, so I'm sure that others agree and would appreciate it.

Will LBP2 Spotlights have a higher standard of quality? With the new tools, better levels will be easier to make and become more common.

Trindall
08-23-2010, 11:33 PM
I'd like throw my two bits into this as I think that everyone has valid, well thought out points and most of the opinions present have a solid basis. This is important to enough people that this issue keeps coming up. I think that the scope of what is being asked makes this a situation that can not be changed or modified to please everyone.

The scale of the mission is too large to be managed completely, there are too many creators, players, levels, opinion and emotions for anything to ever reach a consensus or steady state.

The Community Spotlight is an amazing amount of work. People are spending their free time to help the community but there will always be too many levels and not enough free time to do justice to most of them.

If you increased the requirements for the Spotlighter’s to go through to vet a level you’d have a drastic reduction in the amount of levels that make the cut. Any way you try to build and enforce a set of rules you’ll never catch all the levels, never get through enough to please everyone.

There are a higher number of levels spotlighted by ‘big-name/connected’ creators? Absolutely. But this is usually due to their levels being good enough to warrant the spotlight. There are some creators who can slack off, putz around in a level for a week and pull off something better than many three month jobs of others. Should their levels not be spotlighted?

I do think that there are levels that are not Spotlight-worthy, not close, but this goes back to my point about not being able to please all people all the time. Me not liking a level doesn't mean that it wasn't fun for others.

The Spotlight misses legitimately brilliant levels? Absolutely. How could they not miss levels when there thousands of new ones every day? It’s a logistical nightmare playing just the .001% of LBP of levels posted here each day.

Should there be no pie unless the pie can satisfy all people equally? This Spotlight is a bonus, a gift to the community but the community is too large and diverse for everyone to get benefit from it.

There are players with legitimate qualms with the Spotlight but I feel the members who benefit from it are higher. I’m sorry that all people can’t get exactly what serves them best but there’s not enough of everything to do this.

I appreciate the time, work and energy put into these spotlights. I appreciate the concern and desire to help the community that has kept it alive this long. I appreciate the concern for the well being of levels and the creator’s feelings that causes these debates. But I don’t take the grievances home to bed with me and sour my sleep.

There are too many good points in this community, in the different levels and in the game to foul it up by focusing on the negative aspects overlong.

Breath, relax, go have fun.

Jaeyden
08-23-2010, 11:35 PM
Zomg...now I know why I just lurk in the dark recesses of the forums.

I was once asked to join the spotlight crew and I had to humbly decline. I declined because I didn't want the responsibility of playing all those levels and then having to judge them and comment on them. I applaud ANYONE that has the tenacity to do it. It's a fricking full time job with out any of the benefits. I know that Morgana plays all these levels, judges them and comments on them. She makes time to hang out with everyone on her friends list (people coming and going all day long). She makes time for her own projects (thank god). She makes time to post here on the forums all day long and she works her own real life full time job and takes care of her own family. Amazing if you ask me and something she probably is not thanked enough for. Thanks Morgana, you truly are the Den Mother of LBPC and an amazing person.

rtm223
08-23-2010, 11:40 PM
As for your second point: I stressed quite clearly that the idea was to help people find them all in one thread. You know as well as I do that many level showcase threads get ignored and lost in the depths of time because they aren't stickied to the front page.

bam (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?40-Level-Showcase&s=&pp=20&daysprune=-1&sort=dateline&prefixid=&order=desc) - all levels posted in order from when their threads were started. Or you can just use the display options at he bottom of the forum to reproduce that.

Have fun working your way methodically through them and I look forward to mistervistas review time :)

comphermc
08-23-2010, 11:46 PM
Go on comph, let's hear your sarcastic reply to that one!

Oki-doki. :)



You really should try understanding what you're reading before posting your sarcastic replies. To answer your first point: Just read the judges summation on the spotlighted levels and you'll see, as everyone else can, that some levels aren't played by more than 1 or 2 judges. They've even commented at times that they didn't have time to play them so you don't need to take my word for it.

I can read quite well, but thank you for the concern. Reading is knowledge, kids. I knew very clearly what I was saying, and it's wild to think that as a moderator I have access to, and follow, the progress of a community spotlights each week. This one was a particular triumph, if you ask me. Morgana retired, or did she...? She is our little Brett Favre over here (ah, you might not get the reference... read up on it a little if you're curious). She actually retired from the spotlight after the last one, but due to a series of spotlighter vacations, technical issues, and a server migration, the time allotted to actually write the spotlight comments was cut short. She came back and worked tirelessly to help get through all the levels, write the actual article, and get everyone's comments in order. Hence the super-late posting.

I also recall a certain hissy-fit (or two) that you threw when a level of yours wasn't spotlighted. You accused the team of having only one person play each level, and I also remember quite clearly us explaining to you that this was not the case. In fact, I played your unspotlighted levels as well. It's weird how I feel they made the right call...


As for your second point: I stressed quite clearly that the idea was to help people find them all in one thread. You know as well as I do that many level showcase threads get ignored and lost in the depths of time because they aren't stickied to the front page.

This is just a terrible idea. Although... it would really save us some time. All we'd have to do is organize the level showcase thread and sort by date of first post. Done!

In what way is that more efficient than just linking you to the level showcase, as rtm has done? So, let me get this straight... you want a list of all the levels created in the past two weeks?

Q: What is the function of the level showcase?

A: I'm glad you asked. Why, it's a place where you are linked to all the levels, listed in order of most recent activity. There are sort options at the bottom if you're looking for a particular time frame. The best part is, you don't have to wait until the end of a fortnight... you can do it any time!!!!

:)

ferrrch
08-23-2010, 11:53 PM
The spotlight team is very good when choosing the levels, i know they reject many good ones, it's obvious that there are some levels that really deserve the spotlight but don't get there and i guess is only a matter of likes and dislikes, besides all the creators in the spotlight crew are chosen for their great levels and opinions in level showcase. So i dont think is a good thing to complain because some levels havent gone there(wooden buttons). BTW fernderjt's level was cool:p

rtm223
08-23-2010, 11:53 PM
Can everyone please read this three or four times, slowly and carefully:


I'd like throw my two bits into this as I think that everyone has valid, well thought out points and most of the opinions present have a solid basis. This is important to enough people that this issue keeps coming up. I think that the scope of what is being asked makes this a situation that can not be changed or modified to please everyone.

The scale of the mission is too large to be managed completely, there are too many creators, players, levels, opinion and emotions for anything to ever reach a consensus or steady state.

The Community Spotlight is an amazing amount of work. People are spending their free time to help the community but there will always be too many levels and not enough free time to do justice to most of them.

If you increased the requirements for the Spotlighter’s to go through to vet a level you’d have a drastic reduction in the amount of levels that make the cut. Any way you try to build and enforce a set of rules you’ll never catch all the levels, never get through enough to please everyone.

There are a higher number of levels spotlighted by ‘big-name/connected’ creators? Absolutely. But this is usually due to their levels being good enough to warrant the spotlight. There are some creators who can slack off, putz around in a level for a week and pull off something better than many three month jobs. Should their levels not be spotlighted? I do think that there are levels that are not Spotlight-worthy, not close, but

The Spotlight misses legitimately brilliant levels? Absolutely. How could they not miss levels when there thousands of new ones every day? It’s a logistical nightmare playing just the .001% of LBP of levels posted here each day.

Should there be no pie unless the pie can satisfy all people equally? This Spotlight is a bonus, a gift to the community but the community is too large and diverse for everyone to get benefit from it.

There are players with legitimate qualms with the Spotlight but I feel the members who benefit from it are higher. I’m sorry that all people can’t get exactly what serves them best but there’s not enough of everything to do this.

I appreciate the time, work and energy put into these spotlights. I appreciate the concern and desire to help the community that has kept it alive this long. I appreciate the concern for the well being of levels and the creator’s feelings that causes these debates. But I don’t take the grievances home to bed with me and sour my sleep.

There are too many good points in this community, in the different levels and in the game to foul it up by focusing on the negative to overlong.

Breath, relax, go have fun.

Also, let me remind you that the site rules specifically classify "attacking other members" as inappropriate content. Let's keep this civil, ladies and gents - and I am looking at both sides of the table when I say that ;)

Whalio Cappuccino
08-24-2010, 12:18 AM
Hey everyone...






I <3 you. :)

Morgana25
08-24-2010, 12:29 AM
Two slightly random questions for the spotlight team:

Can we make v0rtex's abbreviated spotlight list official? I've always found it very useful, and his lists always gets thanked a lot, so I'm sure that others agree and would appreciate it.

Just wait.... Vortex has been a busy little bee and has something even more awesome in mind than his lists (which are awesome and very appreciated by many)


Will LBP2 Spotlights have a higher standard of quality? With the new tools, better levels will be easier to make and become more common.

I wouldn't say "higher standard of quality" but it is going to be very difficult, especially in the beginning to classify and evaluate levels that can be as broad ranging as simple story telling to full out rpg's. I think we'll have to feel it out for a bit until people start producing levels that we can get a baseline on, much like when the spotlight first began here back in 2008.

I don't want to comment on anything else in this thread at this time except to say that if the impression of biased and unfairness still hovers over the spotlight crew, then I feel I have failed. I have tried to make the process the most democratic, fair, and thoroughly thought through process possible and I don't know what else I could do improve on it without quitting my job and forgoing sleep for days on end. We play EVERY level in the showcase.... 172 this time around if anyone's counting, and make a good faith effort to evaluate them ALL fairly and on their own terms. That's why you can find diversity in the levels we feature. We've included zero gameplay levels with amazing visuals and levels that play amazingly but aren't quite up to eye candy standards. Not every level we feature does everything perfect nor should it have to. At the end of the day it's a judgement call we all must make, is the overall experience, craftsmanship, play, visuals, and all the other stuff that goes into a level, make the level stand out from the crowd? Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes it's no and sometimes it's not clearly either. These level are where our opinions, experience and gut come into play.

It takes a certain kind of person to put their opinions out there for the world to see and to be confident that they did everything they could to make that choice as fairly as possible - I am proud to call those people my peers in the spotlight crew.

Lockstitch
08-24-2010, 01:00 AM
Ok, so I've debated even posting on this thread for a bit... but I just want to say one thing to the spotlight crew(s):

Don't even for a second get down on yourselves about the quality of work you produce for the community here. 99.9% of us absolutely love you for sacrificing so much of your free time each week to bring us this service. Its the best 'rating system' in the whole realm of the world that is LBP.

(I know I feel down when I receive even one negative comment on my levels, so I can't imagine how a thread like this makes you guys feel...)

v0rtex
08-24-2010, 01:13 AM
I shall paraphrase my country's 16th President:


You can [please] some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot [please] all of the people all of the time.

~ Abraham Lincoln (sorta)

I have recently had the opportunity to be a fly on the wall of the Spotlight process, and let me tell you that these people are anything but biased and/or heartless machines. The system is a subjective one and so will always be imperfect.


sub·jec·tive /səbˈdʒɛk tɪv/

–adjective

existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective).
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.



That there are people in the community at all that would sacrifice so much time and effort for the benefit of others, at zero personal gain, is to me a wonder of human nature and speaks to the very word "community". That there are others who would impugn this gift of charitable devotion is also an undeniable, inescapable fact of human nature.

There really can be no objective method for producing these bi-weekly, fortnightly, semi-monthly lists. It will always be based on opinion and personal taste.

Let me share a little anecdote with you... I recently bought a cool new phone. The Motorola Droid. My first smart phone, and boy was I excited to download some cool new apps for it (there are over 70,000 in the Market, most of them free). So I thought I'd Google a little help finding the best apps. I immediately found several (like over a dozen) articles on great apps for my specific phone - most of which were Top-10 lists. And do you know what? Every single one of those articles had a different list of Top-10 best apps. Now how could they all be right? I faced at least 60 must have, Top-10 choices. You get the point... Subjectivity is a good thing, but it is not perfect or precise. And we wouldn't want it to be.

I for one applaud the Spotlight team for all they do, and thank them for their dedication and incredible hard work. I regret that this is probably the only payment you will receive, but hope that you continue to receive it tenfold.

grayspence
08-24-2010, 01:35 AM
I do not sense any dissapointment when I think of spotlight. Some creators are just very talented, (you ALL are, I assure you!) and had a good level that the spotlight team thought it deserved recognition! While some creators fell just slightly short of the spotlight.
It doesnt matter how many plays, hearts, good comments, bad comments a level has to get into the spotlight! Im pretty sure the spotlight team knows exactly what they are doing, right? How else would they have gotten on the spotlight team in the first place? Despite how much work goes into your level, you shouldnt get your hopes up about a spotlight, this is how the most dissapointment is formed, right? What Im trying to say here, is that you shouldnt worry about how good your level is, all that matters is if you had fun with it. And Im pretty sure going by that rule will get you where you want to go.

Stay sane, everyone! -Grayspence

Richasackboy
08-24-2010, 01:57 AM
I love the community spotlight - I really really do.

And all the creators and levels that are mentioned & spotlighted are great; However, because there are so many great levels out there, I (personally, yes this is an opinion, but LittleBigPlanet Central isn't the Thought Police) think that there should be more people working on the spotlight from now on, especially since what I'd call the backbone of it (Morgana25) has retired from it.
What I mean by 'more' people, is instead of having a spotlight team of only 5-7, have a spotlight team that goes from 10-15-20 people, so that;

• more levels can be played by more people
• when comments are posted on a spotlighted level, there are more opinions on it, giving the level more of a boost
• confirming that the level deserved to be spotlighted by having more people forming their opinions on it

In my (humble) opinion (oh no, an opinion), this is a good system that will "[please] all of the people some of the time" to quote Vortex paraphrasing Mr. Lincoln. It may have flaws (if it does, point them out to me, because I'm tired and... drunk? No, not drunk, I'm a bit too young for that) and it may have certain advantages (if it does, also point them out to me!) that the current spotlight system does not. Too much pressure has been put on the spotlight team with so many levels being published now that LittleBigPlanet 2 has been announced.

It seems to me that some of our precious spotlight-ers will have some sort of breakdown after they judge that one level that pushes them over the edge. Balancing the workload seems a more realistic workaround than truncating the reviews of some levels, and excluding others that aren't as easy to review (this point is another one of my opinions... For me at least, some levels are hard to review) as others. Slipping up and forgetting some stellar levels might be O.K sometimes, but if it happens somewhat often, it can take away from the purpose of the spotlight; is the community spotlight not to do two or three (main) things?

• Boost the popularity of a creator's excellent level to get it more plays and attention
• Help players to find, play, rate, and leave feedback on great community levels
• Help creators to improve their own creating skills by playing these great levels

So if a few stellar levels are missed out, it's to the detriment of the spotlight; in this respect, the community spotlight should be nearly perfect nearly all of the time; from what I've read in this thread (not just OmegaSlayer's posts, but a few others) it hasn't. This is the main reason I (me, yes my opinion, Big Brother. :D) think that more people should be on the community spotlight in order to get more great levels more quickly, and to make more lengthy reviews!


Toodle-doo!
Richasackboy

RangerZero
08-24-2010, 03:18 AM
This thread is an utopia from the start. The community spotlight is an opinion presented to you that you don't have to agree with. Would there be points or not, formula or not, it stays an opinion and therefore it's entirely subjective.
It's the same same thing as a movie review by a movie critic, the same a critic making a videogame review. It's their opinion presented to you, they don't have the purpose or tried to please you particularly. Something entirely subjective cannot be rationalised and made objective. This is where the thread begin and ends.

Also, there is alot of misconception around here. First off, one shouldn't create to hit the spotlight, you guys should have higher motives than that. You should first off please yourself. This means that you feel you expressed something through your level, that you feel some "relief" somewhere it your soul from that action of expressing yourself. It's the pleasure of creating and expressing ourselves and not ranking in prizes, fame, money, etc. What's more, I've been extremely lucky to have all my level spotlighted so far but I am not "well known", "famous" or anything. Go read any thread with people talking about creators and it's extremely rare that I am even mentionned ONCE. Seriously, the spotlight cannot bring you as much as you think it does. It's not the reality of things I am sorry. And complaining about it is even worse. Do you complain about movies and videogames critics? books critics? It's the same thing - an opinion. What do you do when you think some movie critic did smoke some really nice stuff for not liking X movie? You let go and move on. You ignore him. Well, it should be the same with the spotlight because it's only an opinion presented to you. You can agree or disagree. It does not have the purpose to represent anyone, not to be objective or anything. It's just an opinion. Complaining about it is only doing one thing: taking a dump on the INCREDIBLY DEMANDING work the spotlight crew is doing without any pay, recognition or whatever other futile stuff one can look for in life.

The spotlight doesn't bring much anyways in matter of "fame" and recognition, those 2 things you shouldn't really be looking for anyways. I can't recall much of my levels that have been spotlighted receiving further posts. They also didn't receive much plays. Maybe 30 max from a spotlight. The harsh reality is that 90% of your plays, feedback and whatnot, you will get them BEFORE the spotlight. So I don't understand the stress here about this feature.

In a perfect world I would also like that when someone complain, instead of just throwing it out there, would bring tangible and well thought solutions. I mean, if you really complain about something and know what you're doing, it's because you're intelligent enough to see through it and bring ideas, solutions. Per example, I am one of the most vocal complaining about the Cool level pages but if you read me right, I have detailed and realistic solutions for the problems I have. I am not just complaining, I am trying to somehow make things go forward. Complaining + solution = a positive. Complaining alone = negative. It's not needed and won't bring any good.

Lastly, when I get cited as some sort of argument that it's ok to crave for spotlight, I don't really feel good. I'm NEVER craving for a spotlight. This tks message I left in my Dead Swamp thread has been written because I felt really fulfilled by the positive comments in the thread itself. If I make the spotlight it's only a cherry on top of the cake.

I really wonder how this thread is still open. Something subjective is subjective and the discussion should have ended there. Especially when nobody is forced to agree with the spotlight, read it or again play the levels in there. Make your choices, establish your priorities and respect the people that at least are taking MANY of their free time to even bring you a selection of great levels to play. Complaining towards them means that you would prefer to search for those levels yourself. Also, have the complainers ever thought about taking part in the spotlight crew? I mean, maybe you could bring some fresh air in there? I mean, all this energy for complaining could be placed somewhere positive.

.

Powershifter
08-24-2010, 03:20 AM
I think the question of having more people on the spotlight crew has always been up in the air. But the amazing thing is that even with 5 to 7 people on the crew, they still manage to play every single level that's published within a 2 week time period. Every single one. I've been on the team myself, and I can verify that all levels are being played. Many people have already made good points, but what it comes down to is that people are being aggravated by the illusion that their level is not being played. That's simply not true. And unfortunately it's a slap in the face if you don't believe it. Sometimes things need to be said more than once or twice so I'll say it one more time - all published levels that are in the level showcase are played/evaluated. None are missed.

Part of the fun of being on the spotlight team was getting to see all of the levels that are out there. Every once in a while you come across a creator whom you've never heard of and you're blown away by their work. That's what gives the team the motivation to search out the best of the best. Well, that was true of my experience, and I believe is true for others who have been on the team.

I second (third, actually) Trindal - breath, relax, and go have fun. That's what it's all about. :)

Fishrock123
08-24-2010, 03:52 AM
Part of the fun of being on the spotlight team was getting to see all of the levels that are out there. Every once in a while you come across a creator whom you've never heard of and you're blown away by their work. That's what gives the team the motivation to search out the best of the best. Well, that was true of my experience, and I believe is true for others who have been on the team.

I second (third, actually) Trindal - breath, relax, and go have fun. That's what it's all about. :)

(Since some of the team was away the last two weeks aya helped fill in.)

I had joined him and was tagged along a few times - we came across a few good levels that I had no idea about [ specifically rebuilding imagination ] - it was real quite interesting.


~I also may note we had to play through tons of mediocre levels, so many, that I admire the guys from the spotlight crew because it must take incredible patience and dexterity to do it for weeks and weeks on end.

BabyDoll1970
08-24-2010, 03:59 AM
I was going to not get involved in this discussion this time round, but I just have to reiterate a few things.

Firstly, I get where you're coming from Omega. I understand the almost parental connection artists have to their work and their desire to have that work understood, appreciated and to have people touched by their experience of it. I understand people's distress at feeling like they've somehow been denied the accolades or attention they felt they deserved (or others said they deserved). I haven't personally experienced missing out on a Spotlight since my levels were published prior to arriving here at LBPC. However, I did have to get to the stage where I needed to just let go of that desire for recognition as a validation of my creativity, to let my hardly-ever-played levels just stand on their own as a symbol of my enjoyment of the game, and tbh, it's quite liberating. But that's just me. Not everyone can - or wants to - do that. I'm just putting it out there as a suggestion.

I just need to point out something that has already been said many times but doesn't seem to be getting through... You can put 100 people on the Spotlight team, divide up the workload, come up with the perfect system for deciding what levels meet the criteria, and guess what? People will still be miserable and complain that it's flawed and biased. It's just the down side of human nature. We are imperfect beings dealing with each other in imperfect ways, but in most cases, doing the best we can. Maybe there are some suggestions the Spotlight Team can adopt from this discussion that might help them spread the workload or hone their discussions in some way? I'd be all for whatever lessens their massive workload, personally. But don't for a second assume that any perceived "problems" are going to be solved. They're not. New peeps will continue to present their issues with the way things are done.

If I can share just a couple more things - firstly, the Spotlight is not set up to be an exclusive club. While it may seem that way at times, in my experience of what I've learned and seen behind the scenes in my time as a mod, they really aren't. And I would not lie about that. Sure, team members have their preferences for types of levels and those may get more attention, but as has been said over and over, it's subjective. Morgana - or any of the other team members - can't decide for me what levels will be my favourites? They can only decide what they liked and report that back to us. That's what the Spotlight is. It's a "hey, community, we loved these levels and thought you might like to have a look". It's not a critique on a creator's worth. It's not a cut-off point for excellent levels. It's a selective review service. It has to be selective or it'd just be the Level Showcase over again and who'd be bothered wading through that every fortnight? Who has the time??

As far as the comments/reviews are concerned, I never actually read them as I prefer to discover the level for myself, free from bias, if that makes sense? The only reason people can want more comments in the Spotlight is either for ego stroking or .. actually, I can't think of any other reason. Spotlights aren't the forum for feedback - that no doubt already happened in the Level Showcase and usually continues to happen post-Spotlight. So I personally don't get the reasoning for wanting more comments - although perhaps it's required as 'proof' that team members actually played the level? I don't know...

But please, folks, let's step back for a minute and look at each other. We're all just people, expressing our differences of opinion, yes, but all wanting to feel accepted and worthwhile to the community, in whatever way we can. If some of us need that validated by the Spotlight, then all the best in that endeavour. I really hope everyone gets to achieve that at some stage. But if by chance we don't (and there's a high likelihood that at some stage we'll all be in that position), before we go on the warpath after those who we feel have denied us, let's just remember that this is a free 'service'. It's not our 'right'. We can choose to appreciate the gift of their time and efforts in the spirit in which it's given, or we can choose to be upset and find fault. Either way, it's a choice.

If it's any consolation, remember the many great artists/musicians who died in relative obscurity and squalor to be discovered 'posthumously'.. this isn't a new state of affairs. The Spotlight is not your only chance to be appreciated.

Fishrock123
08-24-2010, 04:12 AM
Maybe there are some suggestions the Spotlight Team can adopt from this discussion that might help them spread the workload or hone their discussions in some way? I'd be all for whatever lessens their massive workload, personally.

Maybe there is some way the community can help by narrowing outcome of those levels which are mediocre (or simply put, totally not up to standards) ?

I dunno (and I'm not saying) that it is nessicarily possible, but that's my two cents.

Richasackboy
08-24-2010, 04:22 AM
I was going to not get involved in this discussion this time round, but I just have to reiterate a few things.

Firstly, I get where you're coming from Omega. I understand the almost parental connection artists have to their work and their desire to have that work understood, appreciated and to have people touched by their experience of it. I understand people's distress at feeling like they've somehow been denied the accolades or attention they felt they deserved (or others said they deserved). I haven't personally experienced missing out on a Spotlight since my levels were published prior to arriving here at LBPC. However, I did have to get to the stage where I needed to just let go of that desire for recognition as a validation of my creativity, to let my hardly-ever-played levels just stand on their own as a symbol of my enjoyment of the game, and tbh, it's quite liberating. But that's just me. Not everyone can - or wants to - do that. I'm just putting it out there as a suggestion.

I just need to point out something that has already been said many times but doesn't seem to be getting through... You can put 100 people on the Spotlight team, divide up the workload, come up with the perfect system for deciding what levels meet the criteria, and guess what? People will still be miserable and complain that it's flawed and biased. It's just the down side of human nature. We are imperfect beings dealing with each other in imperfect ways, but in most cases, doing the best we can. Maybe there are some suggestions the Spotlight Team can adopt from this discussion that might help them spread the workload or hone their discussions in some way? I'd be all for whatever lessens their massive workload, personally. But don't for a second assume that any perceived "problems" are going to be solved. They're not. New peeps will continue to present their issues with the way things are done.

If I can share just a couple more things - firstly, the Spotlight is not set up to be an exclusive club. While it may seem that way at times, in my experience of what I've learned and seen behind the scenes in my time as a mod, they really aren't. And I would not lie about that. Sure, team members have their preferences for types of levels and those may get more attention, but as has been said over and over, it's subjective. Morgana - or any of the other team members - can't decide for me what levels will be my favourites? They can only decide what they liked and report that back to us. That's what the Spotlight is. It's a "hey, community, we loved these levels and thought you might like to have a look". It's not a critique on a creator's worth. It's not a cut-off point for excellent levels. It's a selective review service. It has to be selective or it'd just be the Level Showcase over again and who'd be bothered wading through that every fortnight? Who has the time??

As far as the comments/reviews are concerned, I never actually read them as I prefer to discover the level for myself, free from bias, if that makes sense? The only reason people can want more comments in the Spotlight is either for ego stroking or .. actually, I can't think of any other reason. Spotlights aren't the forum for feedback - that no doubt already happened in the Level Showcase and usually continues to happen post-Spotlight. So I personally don't get the reasoning for wanting more comments - although perhaps it's required as 'proof' that team members actually played the level? I don't know...

But please, folks, let's step back for a minute and look at each other. We're all just people, expressing our differences of opinion, yes, but all wanting to feel accepted and worthwhile to the community, in whatever way we can. If some of us need that validated by the Spotlight, then all the best in that endeavour. I really hope everyone gets to achieve that at some stage. But if by chance we don't (and there's a high likelihood that at some stage we'll all be in that position), before we go on the warpath after those who we feel have denied us, let's just remember that this is a free 'service'. It's not our 'right'. We can choose to appreciate the gift of their time and efforts in the spirit with which it's given, or we can choose to be upset and find fault. Either way, it's a choice.

If it's any consolation, remember the many great artists/musicians who died in relative obscurity and squalor to be discovered 'posthumously'.. this isn't a new state of affairs. The Spotlight is not your only chance to be appreciated.

I get where you're coming from, but even though some people would still be miserable, why not try it? I mean, it's not like it's gonna have any HUGE detrimental side effects (put more spotlight-ers on the spotlight team, I mean).

It is a review, but why not make the reviews longer with more people putting down their feedback and opinions on the level?

I don't think that having a level spotlighted is a main goal when someone creates a level; it's an extra bonus, like in Sehven's Starfighter level when you gain a powerup on the side (shameless plug!) It's not something to aspire to; You just say "Oh, I missed that powerup, let's find another". But wouldn't it be nice if we didn't miss the powerups that often? :)

EDIT: Also...


Go read any thread with people talking about creators and it's extremely rare that I am even mentionned ONCE.

Eh, I don't much like you as a creator anyway. :D

JUUUUUUST KIDDINGGG! :D :D :D


I really wonder how this thread is still open. Something subjective is subjective and the discussion should have ended there.

Don't you remember? We're all waiting on midnight_heist to post his comments here. :)

Just my (other) two cents in reply to you guys other two cents. :D

Gravel
08-24-2010, 04:26 AM
I don't have anything personally to add to this discussion... and for the most part it has remained that, a discussion.


Can we improve the Spotlight?

If your answer is not yes, or at least a possible maybe, you shouldn't be posting here. There is always room for improvement! Ways to make this site better! Linking level badge showcases! HD pics! Showcase Videos! All of these ideas have the 'merit of possibility' to make the spotlight better. This is the light I tend to view Omega's OP in. With all deference to the fantastic spotlight group, who are over-reaching and over-worked... there are ways to improve...

Personally, if more than half of the spotlight team aren't playing a level... why the heck are we spotlighting it in the first place?

Yeah, nothing to personal to say... but I have a little green pal and we were talking about the Community at large, and the minutia of the spotlight... I was surprised at his wisedom and depth of knowledge and if you allow me to paraphrase I will...

When posting, he said, ...there are 14 rules.



1. Be happy with who you are.
2. Begin every interaction in a friendly manner.
3. Be genuinely interested in others.
4. Let the other person do most of the talking.
5. Show respect to everyone.
6. Expect the best from others.
7. Appeal to others' higher motives.
8. Be open to new things.
9. Have a sense of humour.
10. Be honest.
11. Avoid arguements.
12. Admit mistakes.
13. Be quick to forgive.

-and-

14. Give freely of yourself and your talents.

"When you can give your time and your talent to others without expecting anything in return, you're the best kind of friend." He then went on to say, "The Community Spotlight is a gift. Don't ask or look for the receipt!"
- Kermit The Frog

BabyDoll1970
08-24-2010, 04:30 AM
I get where you're coming from, but even though some people would still be miserable, why not try it? I mean, it's not like it's gonna have any HUGE detrimental side effects (put more spotlight-ers on the spotlight team, I mean).

I didn't say don't try it. I just said be prepared for people to still have problems with the way it's run.


It is a review, but why not make the reviews longer with more people putting down their feedback and opinions on the level?

Because that's what the Level Showcase is for. There's no point doing the same thing in two places.


I don't think that having a level spotlighted is a main goal when someone creates a level; it's an extra bonus, like in Sehven's Starfighter level when you gain a powerup on the side (shameless plug!) It's not something to aspire to; You just say "Oh, I missed that powerup, let's find another". But wouldn't it be nice if we didn't miss the powerups that often? :)

Yes, it would be nice. And that would be a good way of looking at the Spotlight, i think.

Silverleon
08-24-2010, 04:45 AM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/entry.php?1067-To-be-or-not-to-be-(spotlighted)
:rolleyes:
Really?
After all being said, you still say that?

Comeon then, spit out your "perfect judging methond" then, otherwise no one can take your criteria seriously, how can you expect someone to actually think something's bad when you can't show anything better?

Oh hey, try joining the spotlight crew, maybe your so called "prefect unbiased ways" will put all these so called "deserving levels" in there.

What's that i hear?
Oh yes, its the sound of you not being able to back up your own arguent and contradicting yourself...

BabyDoll1970
08-24-2010, 05:13 AM
Yaru - and everybody who may be formulating responses to the above - PLEASE, enough criticism of each other! It's completely counter-productive. Everyone has stated their opinion - some more aggressively than others and perhaps more than necessary, but let's not keep adding fuel to the fire. I think pretty much everyone who has something to say about this has said their piece and some genuine food for thought has been given and received. In that vein, I'm going to lock this now before it descends into further unpleasantries. Thanks everyone for your contributions :)