PDA

View Full Version : Creating my own demise...



moonwire
01-16-2011, 01:34 PM
Alright, I know the forum rules and that this will be closely watched, so I shall keep myself civilized...

So, I have more or less acquired a curse of questioning almost everything. You may go as far as stating I have a fetish for facts and information. There is just something about that tingly feeling you get when you learn something entirely new. One of the reasons I posted my thread asking for places to learn physics, quantum mechanics and all that is an example for my everlasting love of science.

Though lately it seems like it may lead to my own demise in my current position in society. On Facebook I have lately been arguing about god and believing in him, with others. It begun because I watched more of the AAI conference videos, where comishguy67 (or 76?) posted one of them in my physics etc. thread I being the one wanting to start an argument by posting a status telling someone to say something about it (god and etc.). I enjoy such arguments because it is more or less good practice for later times, you never know if knowing how to argue gets handy.
But people tend to telling me to just don't bother. I am a blasphemer, it seems. Is it wrong to question our social norms? They keep telling me to just go on and respect people's view of life. But can I do so? Say, if somebody tells me they believe 1+1=3, ought I to respect them because they hold irrational thoughts about the world? I am not at all saying that believing in god is like that, that would be simplistic of me, that was an example I used for evolution, because that theory is already proven to be true, though some people don't want to think so.
I can say that in my discussion I and someone (let us call that person 'person1') about whether or not to question it, I made a good example (in my opinion), though whether or not it corresponds to the matter or is just complete nonsense, you can judge.


Me: "Alright, so if I believed that the orange was the perfect fruit and king of all fruits, should I keep believing that?"

Person1: " To compare god and an orange, isn't that a bit too far?"

Me: "Had this been my religion, would you say the same?"

Person1: "No."


Now, that is what I would maybe call the appearance of a taboo. And btw. Oranges can't be the perfect fruit, because not everybody likes their taste, they are not symmetrical, does not contain all the vitamins and minerals needed and it can't perform miracles (unless you could use som C-vitamins that is). So no matter how flawed someone's belief may be, should I then don't bother commenting on it?

So people are misliking me because I question their morals. They don't seem to question mine, they just always counter with the "how would you like if someone picked at your thoughts?" And well, my answer is always that I don't mind, as long as their thoughts are rational, because then they would be showing me I am wrong.

I am just calling out to you in the forum, ought I to shut my trap, or ought I to keep on going against this amazonas-sized stream?


Note:
I have not stated anything offensive against religions (the evolution statement and the orange are probably on the edge, but I have wikipedia and a one hour long video from youtube supporting me if you say it is too much to handle), I have just told my story and ask for advice.

And trolls, don't go trolling here please. :)

Macnme
01-16-2011, 02:11 PM
Good for you, I say.

I also have the same ethos.
Richard Dawkins summed it up nicely with "What is the evidence for that?" in his letter to his daughter.

When someone tells you something, or you read something in a paper or on the internet... the first question you should be asking is "What is the evidence for that?". And it doesn't matter who is telling you, A scientist, a teacher, a politician, a preacher, you should always ask "What is the Evidence for that?" and go find out for yourself.

There is a wealth of evidence to show that the Thoery of Evolution is true. In fact, the very same people who advocate the theory of Evolution are actively looking for evidence to disprove the theory, in order to test its validity.

You cannot say the same about proponents of Religion... they do not actively try to disprove their theories.

It is a one way conversation with Religion... they will tell you how it is, and you will listen and not question!

Where-as with Science it's a two way dialogue; They will tell you how they think it is, and if you have evidence to the contrary they will listen - and if found to contradict their original theory, will modify it to include the new evidence.
This is how mankind has progressed further and faster in the short time since the age of enlightenment than in the millenias that preceeded it.

You should not feel bad for having a questioning mind. You should feel bad for those who have a closed mind.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."


I think that people with deeply held beliefs don't like having them scrutinized and questioned is because they have never really scrutinized or questioned their beliefs either - they have just always "believed" them, and have never really thought to deeply about what it is they actually believe in, and how that belief is contradicted by evidence in the real world.
As soon as a questioning, rational mind starts to quiz them about it, they get very defensive or angry and take offense.

Mr_T-Shirt
01-16-2011, 02:24 PM
Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Most of the time it's just not worth trying to convert people who don't want to hear it, unless your'e solely looking for an argument, and, if that is the case I suggest you stop. Yes, it's good to have a solid head on your shoulders and to know how to hold your ground in a dispute, but nobody likes a 'know it all.'

It's all about respect. Respect other people's views and they should respect yours. If they don't, they're not worth talking to. Religion is a very sensitive subject to some. You don't want to ruin a friendship over something so trivial. Life's too short.

I guess what i'm trying to say is, keep doing what your doing, but don't preach to people who don't want to hear it. In my opinion, mouthy Atheist are just the same as the bible nut down the street yelling at us to "repent."

The irony is overwhelming.

RockSauron
01-16-2011, 02:32 PM
Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Most of the time it's just not worth trying to convert people who don't want to hear it, unless your'e solely looking for an argument, and, if that is the case I suggest you stop. Yes, it's good to have a solid head on your shoulders and to know how to hold your ground in a dispute, but nobody likes a 'know it all.'

It's all about respect. Respect other people's views and they should respect yours. If they don't, they're not worth talking to. Religion is a very sensitive subject to some. You don't want to ruin a friendship over something so trivial. Life's too short.

I guess what i'm trying to say is, keep doing what your doing, but don't preach to people who don't want to hear it. In my opinion, mouthy Atheist are just the same as the bible nut down the street yelling at us to "repent."

The irony is overwhelming.

I shall accept religion as an adequate system of thought when all religion people accept that aliens, telepathy, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are as adequate as Christianity.

So yeah, I mostly hate it when the same people who say that we should accept their beliefs based solely on the fact that they believe them and nothing else say that their unprovable theory of existence makes sense, yet laugh at and scorn people who believe in Scientology and the 2012 doomsday thing.

OneEyedBanshee
01-16-2011, 02:32 PM
There will always be people who believe and people who don't. Can't we all just get along? (so long as you don't try force feeding me your beliefs or lack of :p) I think anyone curious enough will come to their own decisions, whether pro or against. Some people are just happy to accept things and I respect that, then there's those of us who question every detail. To be honest I think it's probably a happier life just accepting things and believing in something so I don't see why you are trying to inflict this insatiable curiosity upon your friends, you even likened it to a curse yourself! :p

Macnme
01-16-2011, 02:49 PM
“We must respect the other fellow's religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.”

For thousands of years, religion held dominance over scientific and philisophical thought through the rule of the fist.
It is only very recently in human history that Athiests have been able to advocate their athiesm without fear of persecution.
And what happens to them? they are told to shut up :rolleyes:

moonwire
01-16-2011, 04:27 PM
@Macnme:
... I love you <3 XD

I just hope that this will follow the path of the normal social taboos that always gradually will open up, like the rights for *** people or appropriate wearing, and have it be a more debatable theme in the future.

@Mr_T-shirt:
Yeah, I get what you are saying about respect, but I think we are a bit beyond that, having a church of state here, and learning christianity by far more means than any other religion. Guess where my definite urge to argue came from?
:rolleyes:

@Rocksauron:
Right on!

@OneEyedBanshee:
Well, my belief is that the acceptance of things can first be done when the details are there, not just looking at the whole picture and say 'aye, it's beautiful', I want the 'because' too!

Voltergeist
01-16-2011, 04:35 PM
Sure is push your lack of religion on everyone in here

moonwire
01-16-2011, 04:42 PM
Sure is push your lack of religion on everyone in here

They are the ones so far to comment, but if you want to play the opposite part, then be my guest :)

Macnme
01-16-2011, 04:43 PM
I get accused of "forcing my beliefs" onto people all the time... but I don't know why.
All I do is state my opinion, and maybe back it up with an evidential example or two, and then I'm accused of "Ramming my Views Down Everyones Throat";

But when people express their opinion to me, it's just "Their opinion and everyone has a right to their opinion";

I honestly don't see the difference.
I mean, people are entitled to their opinion... but they should know that just because they hold that opinion, it doesn't make it true or alter the evidence.
If your opinion is so weak that it cannot withstand a little scrutiny, then it was obviously a weak opinion to begin with.

I grew up with people forcing their view of christianity down my throat (I was Athiest from a very early age).. but noone seemed to care about that at the time, no, that's called a "Good Christian Upbringing" to most people.
The first explination for a Rainbow i was given was the biblical "God's Covenant with Mankind" explanation... and when I asked "Why are there still floods in the world?" I was given punishment exersices for being insolent.
As it turns out, I was quite right, Rainbows are caused by a refraction of light, and have nothing to do with an imaginary promise from an invisible beard in the sky ;)

Mr_T-Shirt
01-16-2011, 05:05 PM
I get accused of "forcing my beliefs" onto people all the time... but I don't know why.
All I do is state my opinion, and maybe back it up with an evidential example or two, and then I'm accused of "Ramming my Views Down Everyones Throat";

But when people express their opinion to me, it's just "Their opinion and everyone has a right to their opinion";

I honestly don't see the difference.
I mean, people are entitled to their opinion... but they should know that just because they hold that opinion, it doesn't make it true or alter the evidence.
If your opinion is so weak that it cannot withstand a little scrutiny, then it was obviously a weak opinion to begin with.



In my opinion, you use the word 'Opinion' far too often. Just sayin' ;)

Macnme
01-16-2011, 05:07 PM
That's "your" opinion :p

Voltergeist
01-16-2011, 05:11 PM
I love it how atheists see Christians through this magical prism where everyone who believes in God imagines a bearded man in the sky.

Macnme
01-16-2011, 05:16 PM
I love it how atheists see Christians through this magical prism where everyone who believes in God imagines a bearded man in the sky.
Haha. "Athiests" are the ones looking at the world through a magical prism?!... that really is a classic.

There is an account in the Bible... in fact it is God's last known words spoken to mankind,
The clouds part and a GIANT HAND comes out of the sky, points at Jesus and says "THIS IS MY SON, WITH WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED" in a big booming voice.

Clearly put in the narrative as a way to convince anyone who was on the fence as to wether Jesus was "The Son of God" or not.
What it actually does is destroy the credibility of the whole story.

God has a big grey beard because they stole the iconography from Zues ;)

So, if God made mankind in his own image, he would look something like us right?
Does he have black or white skin then - is his hair black or blonde?

FlipMeister
01-16-2011, 05:17 PM
I love it how atheists see Christians through this magical prism where everyone who believes in God imagines a bearded man in the sky.

I love how many Christians stereotype Atheists :p

Sehven
01-16-2011, 05:23 PM
All right guys. There is room for a healthy debate on religion here, but there is no room for the "I love how Christians..." or "I love how Atheists..." comments. Keep things polite and civil and do your best to at least portray the appearance of respect for the other side's opinion.

FlipMeister
01-16-2011, 05:28 PM
Ok, I apologise.

I do, however, understand why some Christians think that all Atheists are people trying to get their points across in a manner that could be offensive. Richard Dawkins is a prime example.

Macnme
01-16-2011, 05:30 PM
Again, in the UK, Richard Dawkins is seen as a polite, friendly old man you'd love to sit and have a cup of tea with, he's also a very respected biologist.

In America he's The Devil Incarnate!

I like that he's not afraid to say, in the face of total idiocy and a rejection of logic "You are being an illogical idiot".
You would only take offense at that if you were an illogical idiot, so anyone taking offense is simply proving his point :rolleyes:

For years, Athiests were labelled (and still are) as immoral, evil, sinfull or any other amount of slurrs on their character, as if Religion had a monopoly on morality. I'm glad the scales are finally balancing.

moonwire
01-16-2011, 05:39 PM
Agreed with sevhen, those 'I love...' were indeed a bit like too much butter on the toast, or something within those terms.

The-Questor
01-16-2011, 05:47 PM
All right guys. There is room for a healthy debate on religion here, but there is no room for the "I love how Christians..." or "I love how Atheists..." comments. Keep things polite and civil and do your best to at least portray the appearance of respect for the other side's opinion.
Best. Mod. EVA!

Sehven
01-16-2011, 06:01 PM
So, I have more or less acquired a curse of questioning almost everything. You may go as far as stating I have a fetish for facts and information.

Learning is great, but the one thing that I like to keep in mind about such things is that scientists often have to retract or heavily modify their theories and facts. Case in point: the flat earth theory, and the brontosaurus. And then there's the point that those who teach school don't always get their facts straight, like how they used to teach in elementary school that Columbus discovered the world was round.


Is it wrong to question our social norms? They keep telling me to just go on and respect people's view of life. But can I do so? Say, if somebody tells me they believe 1+1=3, ought I to respect them because they hold irrational thoughts about the world?

I get what you're saying, but you've got to remember that to the religious people, when you advocate atheism, they see it as you saying "1+1=3." Actually, I'd say it's more complicated than that. Neither side is adding 1+1. Both are picking and choosing which numbers to add and so they're getting different totals. So where I might see 1+1+1=3, the atheist doesn't see one of those 1's and interprets it as me saying 1+1=3, and the same is true from the other side as well.


...evolution, because that theory is already proven to be true, though some people don't want to think so.

One thing you have to understand is that our view of the world, whether from a scientific or a religious point of view, is largely incomplete. It's like a huge jig saw puzzle and we're only about 5% finished putting it together (or 25% or whatever--just an example). You can theorize about how the complete picture will look, but there's just not enough information to be 100% sure. And then you've got atheists who claim that some of the religious pieces aren't really part of the puzzle, and some religious types claim that some of the science pieces aren't part of it and you've got a big mess. It doesn't help, that there are plenty of pieces that really aren't part of it (not all religions can be right: several specifically contradict each other), but our ways of deciding which belong and which don't can be somewhat dubious. ...and I think that's enough of the jig saw puzzle example :p


I am just calling out to you in the forum, ought I to shut my trap, or ought I to keep on going against this amazonas-sized stream?

Not at all. Closed mindedness is a terrible thing and it prevents learning and growth. However, I believe it is possible to go too far the other direction: a buddy of mine used to say that if you're too open minded, your brain will fall out. A goofy example to be sure, but the point is to question and test things rather just accept whatever you learn, which seems to be exactly what you're trying to do.


As soon as a questioning, rational mind starts to quiz [religious people] about [their beliefs], they get very defensive or angry and take offense.

Surely you must see that this is a generalization and it isn't true of all Christians or people of other faiths. I like to think that I have a questioning and rational mind (rationality is subjective, though), and I don't get defensive or angry or take offense at questions. I take offense when people profane what I regard as sacred, but not when they sincerely ask questions (note that I say sincerely--people will often "ask questions" as a way to mask being contemptuous).

I'd keep going, but I'm late for church :p. I'll check back later to see how things are going and maybe take a stab at answering a question or two or maybe ask some of my own.

Foofles
01-16-2011, 06:06 PM
A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_p8KOFXprbnE/R1OTZcYvDqI/AAAAAAAABho/BkO5HcMIRw8/s1600-R/religion.jpg

But with that out of the way... spirituality is a really personal thing. I think it's silly to frown on anyone's beliefs because, truly, we can't prove or disprove them. That's why it's called faith, don't be a hater.

Voltergeist
01-16-2011, 06:07 PM
Learning is great, but the one thing that I like to keep in mind about such things is that scientists often have to retract or heavily modify their theories and facts. Case in point: the flat earth theory, and the brontosaurus. And then there's the point that those who teach school don't always get their facts straight, like how they used to teach in elementary school that Columbus discovered the world was round.



I get what you're saying, but you've got to remember that to the religious people, when you advocate atheism, they see it as you saying "1+1=3." Actually, I'd say it's more complicated than that. Neither side is adding 1+1. Both are picking and choosing which numbers to add and so they're getting different totals. So where I might see 1+1+1=3, the atheist doesn't see one of those 1's and interprets it as me saying 1+1=3, and the same is true from the other side as well.



One thing you have to understand is that our view of the world, whether from a scientific or a religious point of view, is largely incomplete. It's like a huge jig saw puzzle and we're only about 5% finished putting it together (or 25% or whatever--just an example). You can theorize about how the complete picture will look, but there's just not enough information to be 100% sure. And then you've got atheists who claim that some of the religious pieces aren't really part of the puzzle, and some religious types claim that some of the science pieces aren't part of it and you've got a big mess. It doesn't help, that there are plenty of pieces that really aren't part of it (not all religions can be right: several specifically contradict each other), but our ways of deciding which belong and which don't can be somewhat dubious. ...and I think that's enough of the jig saw puzzle example :p



Not at all. Closed mindedness is a terrible thing and it prevents learning and growth. However, I believe it is possible to go too far the other direction: a buddy of mine used to say that if you're too open minded, your brain will fall out. A goofy example to be sure, but the point is to question and test things rather just accept whatever you learn, which seems to be exactly what you're trying to do.



Surely you must see that this is a generalization and it isn't true of all Christians or people of other faiths. I like to think that I have a questioning and rational mind (rationality is subjective, though), and I don't get defensive or angry or take offense at questions. I take offense when people profane what I regard as sacred, but not when they sincerely ask questions (note that I say sincerely--people will often "ask questions" as a way to mask being contemptuous).

I'd keep going, but I'm late for church :p. I'll check back later to see how things are going and maybe take a stab at answering a question or two or maybe ask some of my own.

/thread
/debate

One more thing though, and this is my favorite way of shutting down arguments like Rock's, is that Christianity has historical backing. Most agree that a man called Jesus did exist, and was crucified. Whether or not he was the son of God is debatable.

The flying spaghetti monster, on the other hand, was created by someone who felt like being a prick. :)

moonwire
01-16-2011, 06:10 PM
@Sevhen:
Thanks for the new illumination of everything, and please do ask some of your questions too! :D I would be writing more but at the moment I am off to watch a bit of 'Fawlty Towers' :p

Jaslow
01-16-2011, 06:18 PM
And Evolution doesn't have historical evidence?

/just sayin'

Stoicrow
01-16-2011, 06:22 PM
Again, in the UK, Richard Dawkins is seen as a polite, friendly old man you'd love to sit and have a cup of tea with, he's also a very respected biologist.

In America he's The Devil Incarnate!


Actually, that is untrue. I'd never even heard of Richard Dawkins until I read your post, so I did the logical thing: check Wikipedia! According to Wikipedia, he is a self described "fairly militant atheist", but he'd rather be called the "Passionate Sceptic." Of course, he could easily be called a " devoted champion of free speech," so it ultimately depends on framing.

It seems to me, Macnme, that you might have fallen victim to a limited world-view where everyone in America is a fundamentalist Christian. You also seem to be insinuating that every religious person is an illogical idiot, but if you were punished for being skeptical, then it is perfectly rational for you to feel the way you do about religion, so it is not like you are being irrational. I was never forced to go to church or read the bible or anything like that, and that is probably the reason that I am not an atheist.

It seems to me that, at some point in the future by the natural course of events, everyone will probably be atheists anyway; whether or not this is a good thing remains to be seen, but the point is: Why argue about it? A society where atheists are persecuted is bad, but so is a society where the same thing happens to the religious. I hope the world doesn't end up like that.

The only thing I don't like about Richard Dawkins is that he thinks that faith is bad; if an atheistic society is one without faith in anything (or anyone), then I can see why the U.K. doesn't let people have guns and uses all those cameras...

...or maybe people really are just too dumb to handle themselves and the government of the U.K. knows it!:p
But seriously, Sehven has the best point.

Voltergeist
01-16-2011, 06:28 PM
And Evolution doesn't have historical evidence?

/just sayin'

I never said that. AGAIN, why do people think Christians are anti-science, or any of these other stereotypes?

I am a Christian. I believe in evolution. So does every Christian I've ever known. I just believe God played a role in it.

Foofles
01-16-2011, 06:30 PM
As an NYC native that saw the twin towers fall with his own eyes, I'm just gonna say that image is silly.

Religion is a creation of man, does it matter what it actually says? Just look at how fiercely "non-religious" people have debated their beliefs on this board in the last few days. Every set of beliefs is a religion, and where there are masses to influence, there will be ways to rally them under your wing. God just provides an easy mechanism for it since it can't really be proven or disproven.

To say "No religion" doesn't encourage "atheism". Religion is the lifestyle, spirituality is the connection with god. To be against Religion entirely is just apathy.

TheCountessZ
01-16-2011, 07:02 PM
Addiction is another form of religion. Smoking, drinking, drugs, etc. are gods to the addicted.

Rhys125
01-16-2011, 08:58 PM
Great thread, Moonwire! :)

I've always held myself back when replying to these threads, but this one seems pretty mellow. :gopher:

Personally, I went to a Catholic school, Sixth Form etc. I started questioning my beliefs at about age 13/14 and considered myself an atheist by about 18.

I listen to a podcast based in Austin, Texas called "The Non Prophets" (Sponsored by the ACA (http://www.atheist-community.org/)) and heard this in last week's episode (I'm paraphrasing):


With regards to the Bible account and the stories of miracles, we have books that are translations of copies, no originals, no idea who the authors are in some cases and no way to verify any of the information. Yet people believe so strongly and so sincerely.

Then we have alien abductees. Here we have people that are alive today that you can talk to and interview who sincerely believe, in all earnest, that they have been abducted. They'll tell you exactly what happened to them, take you to the spot where it occurred, and point you to people that have had similar experiences and will say something like, "Yes, that happened to me in the same way". They could also point you to a group of people that have had a shared experience and will say, for example, "We were out there and we all saw this". The specific details of the shared experience may not match between the supposed abductees, but they'll match sufficiently.

Would you believe them?

unXpectiD
01-16-2011, 09:26 PM
research russel's teapot concept

well i have to be very carefull when on this subject because some veiw me as god.
several songs and dances have been written to praise me and a book depicting my ideolagical veiw of life. i also have prphecies written about me, some slaves and a few people who asked for me to eat their hearts.

we must all aknowledge and respect the veiws of everyone. become aware of our un awareness of our flaws and stop making one sided arguments as well.

Ayneh
01-16-2011, 10:09 PM
So, I have more or less acquired a curse of questioning almost everything. You may go as far as stating I have a fetish for facts and information. There is just something about that tingly feeling you get when you learn something entirely new. One of the reasons I posted my thread asking for places to learn physics, quantum mechanics and all that is an example for my everlasting love of science.
Why draw the line at science?


Though lately it seems like it may lead to my own demise in my current position in society. On Facebook I have lately been arguing about god and believing in him, with others. It begun because I watched more of the AAI conference videos, where comishguy67 (or 76?) posted one of them in my physics etc. thread I being the one wanting to start an argument by posting a status telling someone to say something about it (god and etc.). I enjoy such arguments because it is more or less good practice for later times, you never know if knowing how to argue gets handy.
Arguing about religion isn't good practice. Pick on someone your own size. :p

You could argue that fundamentally when you're in love that it's just a change in brain chemistry, but I don't as a person experience it like that. If you took that experience away from me and said "no, what you're feeling isn't real, it's just a result of such and such" then while I'd agree with you I'd be much less of a human being. Rationality is important, but I'd suggest you try and temper that rationality with some humanity.

Art, poetry, inspiration, love, soul, religion - to me they are all of the same genus, they're part of being human. It doesn't have to make sense. I don't have to make sense to you. I wouldn't describe myself as religious or spiritual, I'm not anything. I'm interested in lots of things and I've tried lots of things and despite successs or failure those experiences go into the "my inclination as to what's what" file in my head with no ramifications for any religious or spiritual system, because I'm looking beyond and behind them.


I never said that. AGAIN, why do people think Christians are anti-science, or any of these other stereotypes?

I am a Christian. I believe in evolution. So does every Christian I've ever known. I just believe God played a role in it.
There's no god or any other agency in evolution, it's entirely mechanistic. I couldn't talk about the biology of a living animal and reasonably say "but I believe that fairies are really the ones behind the scenes here".

Voltergeist
01-16-2011, 10:30 PM
There's no god or any other agency in evolution, it's entirely mechanistic. I couldn't talk about the biology of a living animal and reasonably say "but I believe that fairies are really the ones behind the scenes here".

You are citing your own opinion as fact. Who is to say we understand every aspect of evolution? Even if we did, who is to say that God isn't the one pulling the genetic trigger?

Sehven
01-16-2011, 11:01 PM
Who is to say we understand every aspect of evolution? Even if we did, who is to say that God isn't the one pulling the genetic trigger?

Indeed. I personally don't have the answers when it comes to resolving the evidence for evolution with the biblical account of the creation, but I trust that there are answers. One thing that you learn as you devote yourself to learning is that often the more you know about a subject, the less certain it becomes. Just a few facts is knowledge but when you get closer to it and see all the pieces that make the puzzle (there I go with the puzzle thing again), you start to see that some of the pieces may not fit as well as you thought, some pieces are missing, and that they can be rearranged to make other pictures. Much of what we call science is essentially our best guess. Now I have no doubt that many of those guesses are correct, but I have trouble putting 100% confidence into some of them.

For example, on the global warming issue, there was some confusion because scientists could see that during the night time, the globe had indeed been warming, but during the daytime it seemed to be cooling over the past several decades. That didn't make sense at all until they realized that during that same time they had gotten better at shielding their thermometers (or whatever they were using) from the sun so that they'd be more accurate. The earth wasn't cooler during the day--the readings from years ago were too high because the sun was shining on the sensors. It's a silly mistake but if they can still make mistakes as basic as that (this was discovered some time last year iirc), then it makes you wonder what else they may have messed up on.

So, whether you believe everything your preacher tells you or you believe everything science tells you, either way, you're taking it on faith.

Foofles
01-16-2011, 11:07 PM
I only believe what I see with my own eyes and touch with my own hands.

That said, spirituality and science are not mutually exclusive. My personal spirituality is based on things that I'd see scientifically sensible. I also somewhat agree with B3 that it's possible that "god" uses evolution as a means for creation. I mean, why not? Anything's possible. No living person knows the truth or ever will.

moonwire
01-17-2011, 05:50 AM
Alright, so I have just received a threat from a guy in class with a black belt in Taekwondo (yikes!) and if I am not around the latest days, he got me. What a caveman. I do find it a bit strange that they comment when they absolutely have the right to also not comment and ignore me... Looking at the discussion (on facebook) I saw everyone saying and repeating almost 50% - 75% the same thing, "Don't talk about other people's belief, go fish" and all that, no information almost, while I returned with genuine stuff at all times, or repeating myself at a much lower rate. 1 against 6 I think, I dunno.
I view life as floating bubbles, everyone has one around themselves. I just ask what they are made of, but seems like I am not allowed to touch the bubbles.

Will reply furthermore, if I am still alive later on, but now I am late for school :boo:

OmegaSlayer
01-17-2011, 06:22 AM
Moony, you know I'm a ****, I'm considered a **** here too, because I have no fear to speak my thoughts.
Some people may not like you, but many will respect you, and fear you, in quite a good way.
We not live to be liked by others, but sometimes something resonate with others...and it's just magic.
Still, the most important thing is that the morning you can wake up, look yourself in the mirror and never feel the urge to spit at your own face.

Sehven
01-17-2011, 09:20 AM
I only believe what I see with my own eyes and touch with my own hands.

What about what you can smell with your nose, hear with your ears, or taste with your tongue? Is it not logical to use all of your senses to learn? (I don't suggest putting unknown substances in your mouth to find out what they are, though :p) So let's say for a moment that Christianity is right, and that God can communicate with you in your mind and in your heart to let you know what is true-- wouldn't it make sense to give heed to that sense just as you do to your sight?


I just ask what they are made of, but seems like I am not allowed to touch the bubbles.

Sadly, it seems that many people, whether of spiritual or atheistic beliefs, are insecure about those beliefs and they tend to view questions as a threat, perhaps because they're afraid that if they actually consider the questions, they won't be able to answer them. Essentially, by calling their beliefs into doubt, you're telling them that they're wrong about things that they consider sacred and dear to their hearts. Personally, my opinion is that if these things really are dear to their hearts, they would have learned all they could, asking the same questions that you're asking and so on, until they're firm enough in their beliefs that they don't need to feel insecure about it. It's hard to blame them, though-- many of them had their parents or preachers tell them that it's wrong to question things and that it means their faith is weak. Personally, I believe that a statement like that represents a misunderstanding of what faith is.

Anyway, I hope taekwondo guy is as overblown as he sounds and that you'll be alright.

Foofles
01-17-2011, 11:09 AM
What about what you can smell with your nose, hear with your ears, or taste with your tongue? Is it not logical to use all of your senses to learn? (I don't suggest putting unknown substances in your mouth to find out what they are, though :p) So let's say for a moment that Christianity is right, and that God can communicate with you in your mind and in your heart to let you know what is true-- wouldn't it make sense to give heed to that sense just as you do to your sight?

Don't take everything so literally, especially re. beliefs :P

OmegaSlayer
01-17-2011, 11:23 AM
Here's not about religion, but about how not conform to the majority and having the pride and courage to speak your own mind.
Anyway...respect for other's opinions and belief is something that is binding and essential.

Macnme
01-17-2011, 01:51 PM
For me, belief in any religion is a rejection of logical thinking.
To assert belief in any one religion, is to deny the existance (or truth) of any other religion.
You cannot have a mono-theistic god existing side by side with polythesistic gods. That in itself is illogical.

With all of these competing theories as to the nature of existence, you need to be able to differentiate from the "bunkum" and "the truth".
Among these competing Religious Theories, is that the Sun is being pushed across the sky by a giant dung beetle, you are reincarnated when you die, your soul is beamed up to a spaceship waiting behind the moon, your soul is beamed up to heaven, your soul becomes enlightened and ascends to Nirvana.
And the "soul caretakers" include, Jahova, Allah, Shiva/Ganesh/Vishnu, Bhudda, or Ron L Hubbard.

Seeing as all of these competing theories have absolutely Zero corroborating evidence - we can take the principle of "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence";

Religious types get annoyed when you start comparing their Gods and Saints to Fairys and Elves... but Fairies and Elves were also once believed to exist... as much as the "forgotten Gods" like Ra the Sun God, or Zues and his Army of Roman/Greek Gods. Though they are now considered a Myth, they were once as real as any other God that currently is believed to exist.

Now, should we accept the existance of fairies and elves simply on the basis of belief?
Or should something as important as "the nature of existence" be based on something a little more concrete than just wishfull thinking?

And that is all religion is... wishfull thinking. Praying for something to happen is no different than wearing "lucky red underpants" and hoping for something to happen. While ignoring all of the evidence in front of their eyes, they will instead opt for a "magical" explination, that it was the work of some divine being... even though it could have been anyone of the millions of divine beings that humans have postulated existing in their history. when in fact it was none.
And that's another point. Everyone IS an athiest.
You might not be athiest about your own god that you believe in, but you cannot believe in every god that has ever existed.
If you do, then you are being an illogical idiot.

Religion was simply a way for ancient humans to understand the natural world around them. We have since come up with a much more robust, and TESTABLE, method of understanding the natural world. And what we have found, in all of our testing - is that there is no evidence to support the existance of a god or gods.

Answer me this.
How many Religious texts contain the words "Deoxyribonucleic acid" or "SuperNova" or "Quark"?
Now, How many Science textbooks contain these concepts?

Religion is a simplistic view and a simplistic answer for all of the questions of the universe... and there is one simple answer "God".
But that answer will not help you build a computer, or an aeroplane, or a space station.

Science has proven itself, time and again, in independant laboratories all over the world to be a principle with which you can understand the natural world. You cannot make the same claim about religion.

Also as an aside; There is absolutely no historical or archeological evidence to support the existence of Jesus. None at all. His name appears in no historical accounts from the time. The earliest are from roughly 150 years after his (alleged) death and coincide with the founding of Christianity.

Foofles
01-17-2011, 02:02 PM
Haters gonna hate.

Macnme
01-17-2011, 02:09 PM
Haters gonna hate.

It's not a question of hate. It's a simple question of logic.
There is no such thing as Magic in the universe... everything is a natural phenomenon.
The idea that, upon death, all of the usual rules that govern the universe are suspended - just because you want them to - is idiotic and illogical.

And again, there are so many competing theories, all with no evidential basis, it is only prudent to discount them all and start from scratch.

How can you prove to me that "insert religion here* is correct?
And remember the burden of proof is on the ones asserting the theory.

I could easily invent an non existant entity that it would be impossible for you to disprove exists... but that doesn't mean that it therefore does exist.

OmegaSlayer
01-17-2011, 02:15 PM
Religion is true, oh so unfortunately true, because it still makes people kill each other.
(Joking...or maybe not...)

Foofles
01-17-2011, 02:19 PM
What do you have to gain from disproving it, though? If people pray, they do so because it gives them hope that empowers them. Does it pick your pocket or break your leg?

And as said, why does "magic" have to be mutually exclusive with science? In my faith for instance, everything is related to scientifically plausible occurrences.

Even wireless internet is a form of magic, it's whizzling around energy at will, it might not be a school of wizardry or a trumpeteer coming down from the heavens, but it doesn't mean "magic" is only limited to fairy tales.

Voltergeist
01-17-2011, 02:27 PM
I find it funny how in the past week or so Macnme has called everyone who disagrees with him illogical and idiotic several times over, and yet has not been silenced.

I can guarantee if I made my arguments with the complete disregard for respect you do, I'd be banned in five minutes.

Macnme
01-17-2011, 02:57 PM
I certainly don't mean any disrespect.

But religion has hung around for so long, precicely because people are afraid to talk straight, or are threatened when they do.

I, me, personally, and this is only my opinion here... think that belief in religion is illogical and idiotic, and I have explained why.
That is my opinion, and I can't change it (unless some proof of the existence of god is forthcoming);

This is not meant to be disrespectful.
If you can find some flaw in my logic that makes me look idiotic, please do not be afraid of calling me out ;)

Foofles
01-17-2011, 03:12 PM
I don't care what you believe, you shouldn't care what I believe - that's the key to peace. ;) That and superior firepower.

Rhys125
01-17-2011, 03:37 PM
When you think about it, there isn't really anything in the Bible that couldn't have been written by humans living on the surface of the Earth (I can't comment on any other holy books because I wasn't brought up in another religion).

Standing on the surface of the Earth, it appears that the planet is flat and stationary, and that everything in the sky is just moving up and down in the sky. This is corroborated by the Bible verses: "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved" Psalms 104:5 and "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place" Ecclesiastes 1:5. We now know that the Earth is not flat, and that it orbits the Sun, and the moon, in turn, orbits the Earth. Of course, these verses in the Bible could be metaphors, but I think it would be very silly for a God to fill it with metaphors, where the meaning isn't clear.

Centuries ago, people were often persecuted for believing that the Sun, and not the Earth was at the centre of our Solar System. Would it not be outside a God's power to appear in the sky and say: "Hold on guys, that's enough of that! I've got a pretty good view from up here and I cant tell you that the Earth isn't the centre of everything; It orbits the Sun, spins on it's axis at the same time, and hurtles through space at speeds you couldn't imagine. So cut it out!"

Also, I think it would be very irresponsible for a God to write the Bible, or to inspire Man to write the Bible, knowing that when being copied and translated, the original meaning may change. I remember a thread a few months ago where you had to type in a sentence, and it would translate this into another language, and then translate the new sentence into another language again. You could do it up to 50 times, and the more times you translated the sentence, the difference between the original sentence and the new sentence became larger and larger. So, imagine how different a book could become after almost 2000 years of translating and copying...

Macnme
01-17-2011, 03:37 PM
I don't care what you believe, you shouldn't care what I believe - that's the key to peace. ;) That and superior firepower.

Exactly, Belief is a private, personal thing.

Which is why I find organised religion so utterly distastefull.
If you have this bizzarre and irrational view of the universe... that it is actually controlled by invisible deities, who you can't see, feel, smell, hear or interact with in any provable way... then "for gods sake" keep it to yourself. :rolleyes:

Voltergeist
01-17-2011, 03:39 PM
If you can find some flaw in my logic that makes me look idiotic, please do not be afraid of calling me out ;)

You assume that you know everything, and everyone else is dumber than you. Classic elitist.

/thread

Morgana25
01-17-2011, 03:42 PM
This appears to be devolving..... locking.