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Shiwayari
11-23-2008, 07:18 PM
New Version of the Level is now published.
It's called Shiwa's Devices V2. New designs, new switches, much more detailed explanation. Here's what you'll find in there:

Logic Gates:
- AND/OR Gate
- XOR Gate

Switches
- Permanent Switch
- Relay
- Input Delayer
- Input Deleter
- Toggle Switch
- 2Bit Decoder
- Counter V1,V2 and Version MGS
- Direction Splitter
- State Switch
- Talking Tool

Objects
- Chest
- Gate

I won't explain any of these here, if noone asks me to. You're supposed to play the level after all. If you've played it, then give me feedback please!
Was the presentation good? Any improvements on the switches maybe? Explanation good enough? Bugs? Etc..

Hope you'll enjoy it and find some or all of them useful. And thank you for playing if you do.

xbriandeadx
11-23-2008, 09:17 PM
ill check it out. I know how to make a ton of switches and what not but i don't know some of the terms that you're using. I'm always up for learning new things! Especially since the third level to my trilogy is going to be a multi-form boss battle. I'll need all the knowledge of switches and other things that i can get!

wait a minute...hey you're on my friendlist! we should play some levels together sometime. XD

BloodLustKaNiBaL
11-23-2008, 09:27 PM
Great, I'm gonna check it out for sure, can you copy the lvl to see the switches in creation mode?

Shiwayari
11-23-2008, 09:49 PM
@BloodLustKaNiBaL
I've made it non-copyable for now. There isn't really anything to dismantle, as the switches are wafer-thin and you can see everthing. Might change it if there's requests tough.

@xbriandeadx
I came up with the terms myself, so that might be one reason you don't know them ^^. The switches I made are only ones I already had to use or will use in my in-production level. The only switch that I think might be useful, which I didn't make yet is a speed-manipulation one, but I wouldn't know what to use it for.
And yeah, I'd like to play with some friends too, but I wonder when that will work. Still get that "Failed to load all player profiles" error all the time D=

Just noticed.. I listed 2-Way Switch, it's was supposed to be 2-Way Button. Changed.

BloodLustKaNiBaL
11-23-2008, 10:22 PM
Np, i'll check it out when i'm at home. Reason I said this was becuze sometime it good to understand how you set up everything in the cables that link switches and object. I'll check it out tonight

Shiwayari
12-22-2008, 11:56 AM
Little Update: I added one new switch I named "Direction Splitter" (coming up with names is hard ^^) and fixed some spelling errors while I was at it. The switch itself is probably nothing new, as the idea has been mentioned here and there. I just needed it for the first time in my level, so I added it. As always, I tried to keep it as small and non-messy as possible.
Maybe I'll get some more plays now=? Oh and, comments!

jacobfq
12-22-2008, 12:58 PM
Hi. Thank you very much for this level and all the cool switches and stuff. I was actually a bit disapponted that MM did not include native support for these types of switches, so great that you would.

Shiwayari
12-28-2008, 09:37 PM
Published a new Level "Shiwa's Devices V2". This one has new designs for almost every switch, a few new ones and, most important, much more detailed explanations. Will update the first post of this thread..

Snowspot
12-28-2008, 10:04 PM
Seems like making it copyable would be the most honorable thing =-o Someone will beat you to the punch and release their own and have it copyable...then THEY will get all the credit. Maybe someone is reading this thread and is mad it isn't copyable and plans to release his own! =-o!

BTW thanks for your hard work :D

Shiwayari
12-28-2008, 10:20 PM
I don't get if you mean it should be copyable or not =?
I would really like to make it copyable for honest people, but I always fear someone will just copy it and republish. And it really was hard work =o

mmmiles
12-30-2008, 03:28 PM
Vielen dank for the level. I was already making relays and permanent switches, but I hadn't needed AND or OR gates yet, although it bothered me that I hadn't thought of an obvious way to do them (I hadn't thought of chaining a piston). I was casually thinking of making some kind of starship interior level that would have chained AND/OR gates for interesting effects, you've inspired me to try some more complex puzzles.

You shouldn't need to copy this really. It's very helpful to make these yourself so that you'll explore the different options in terms of switch settings and piston timing. (Although I say that and I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the 2bit decoder.... probably easier when I build it myself).

The idea of glass for low friction is good, but at the same time you don't need walls around any of these switches, so the glass shouldn't be touching anything anyway, just dark matter at each end.

My questions are how close you got the timing on the pistons. I've built a timing mechanism on a wheel, and I really wanted to replicate it with delayed pistons, but the nature of mag switches meant that it was hard to make them precisely turn on for exact durations. Say switch that takes 20 seconds to turn on, and stays on for exactly one second? Perhaps I need to play with mag switch radius more, it looks like yours are much tighter.



This should be a required browse through for anyone wanting to make nice switches. Logic gates aren't anything new, and you might already have plans to make them, but this is a nice refresher on good ways to implement them in LBP.


Good job, and nice demos. I notice almost nobody has played your level. Welcome to the world of higher education. You need to wait for more people to graduate from basic LBP training before you get more customers I think!

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Bug? On your counter, the emitted glass blocks have invisible mag keys on them. Intentional I guess.

Also for a permanent switch, I find it's easier to sandwich a dissolve between two plates, dark matter on the bottom and something else on top - makes accessing the dissolve block for connecting wires easier.

Shiwayari
12-31-2008, 12:40 AM
Thank you very much for taking your time to comment! Making a level sound interesting and getting plays seems to be really hard.

You are right, I don't really need any walls. The reason I added them was because I always use only one type of magnetic key/switch color. The walls are thick enough so you can place all the switches directly together without having to change any switch colors. I tend to forget which colors I already used and it's hard to see the difference. Also, I don't think it would make much of a difference. With two blocks, there are 8 corners. With walls around, there are also 8 corners. Being only one object, it might take even less of the thermometer. Personally I've found them more comfortable to use with borders.

The timing of the pistons of the Relay Switch and it's other uses is almost perfect. I placed the Magnetic Switch and made the piston stretch out so it was as near to the switch as possible. Then I adjusted the radius by tilting the stick VERY slightly. The result is about 2 pixels precise; works very well even with 0.1 seconds.

The only problem I still have, is that the input delayer takes as long to reset as it takes to activate. So if it delays 20 seconds and is supposed to reset, it'll take 20 seconds too, which is definitely too long.
Flipper motion will only work with additional Gates to "check" the status, making it more complex again..

The invisible keys on the counter are semi-intentional. I designed it for myself first, making then invisible. Didn't bother setting up the emitted again, because I think it's pretty obvious what happens.

For the permanent switch, I always try to keep it small and as little corners as possible. I haven't found any problems attaching a wire to the dissolve, the game will recognize that there's something to attach it to. You can even connect wires through whole layers.


I hope I'll get some more plays now that I put it in my sig. People need to get to know these things. There's so much more you can do than just put the predefined stuff together and I think it's a lot of fun to do so.

mmmiles
12-31-2008, 03:55 AM
You are right, I don't really need any walls. The reason I added them was because I always use only one type of magnetic key/switch color. The walls are thick enough so you can place all the switches directly together without having to change any switch colors. I tend to forget which colors I already used and it's hard to see the difference. Also, I don't think it would make much of a difference. With two blocks, there are 8 corners. With walls around, there are also 8 corners. Being only one object, it might take even less of the thermometer. Personally I've found them more comfortable to use with borders.

Good point, I hadn't thought about it long enough. Your switches are better.


The timing of the pistons of the Relay Switch and it's other uses is almost perfect. I placed the Magnetic Switch and made the piston stretch out so it was as near to the switch as possible. Then I adjusted the radius by tilting the stick VERY slightly. The result is about 2 pixels precise; works very well even with 0.1 seconds.

Ah I meant delay switches. Yes, my relay switches are just about instantaneous. My problem was making long delay switches.


The only problem I still have, is that the input delayer takes as long to reset as it takes to activate. So if it delays 20 seconds and is supposed to reset, it'll take 20 seconds too, which is definitely too long.
Flipper motion will only work with additional Gates to "check" the status, making it more complex again..

I end up using timing wheels for long actions, but they are VERY wasteful on the thermometer. I tried pistons for accurate delays, but I couldn't find something precise. Flipper motion works for short delays, but with longer ones it triggers too early.


For the permanent switch, I always try to keep it small and as little corners as possible. I haven't found any problems attaching a wire to the dissolve, the game will recognize that there's something to attach it to. You can even connect wires through whole layers.

Ok, I'll have to try yours out then. As long as it's easy to attach the wire, then that works well for me.

Shiwayari
12-31-2008, 09:51 AM
Ah I meant delay switches. Yes, my relay switches are just about instantaneous. My problem was making long delay switches.

Well yeah, with "other uses" I meant the Input Delayer and Input Deleter, as they are just the Relay Switch with different settings. If I set for example 10 seconds, then it really does take 10 seconds with really little error. It's probably less than 0.5 seconds error, which makes it 1/20. (I haven't tried to use a stopwatch yet though xD). The error should then always be 1/20, as the distance stays the same. So for 0.1 seconds it will be 0.005 seconds error and for 20 it will be 1 second error. I might actually try stopping the time later, kind of bugs me now how much the error really is ^^.


The idea with the wheel's for timing is good, but doesn't it end up the same as using a flipper-motion piston? The Magnetic Switch is on at the beginning, off while the timer is working, and on again when the timer is finished/back at it's initial position. The problem is that it's on at the beginning. I use the relay/delayer and deleter a lot and it saves up a lot of the thermometer that they're all the same object, just with different settings.

I just had an idea.. with a flipper-motion piston, I could just set the Magnetic Switch to one shot and use an Input Deleter or a Toggle Switch for different outputs. That way it will Toggle on/off each time the one shot Mag.Sw. is activated. Of course, an additional Toggle Switch is rough on the thermometer. However, you might not need resetting Delays that often, or at least I don't.

ConfusedCartman
01-01-2009, 07:59 PM
Honestly? You thought of more switches than I did, you did a better job explaining them than I did, and you gave the option of picking up the switches they want instead of handing them all out. You did it loads better than I did, so kudos there. Great job. I don't have anything negative to say, really. Fantastic work. :)

BassDeluxe
01-01-2009, 09:46 PM
I'm just going to post my thoughts as I go through the level:

- Nice set of rules

- It'd be nice if you could re-read over what the mouths say

- I really like how you used the switches to advance us through the levels.

- That toggle switch is really smart, emitters there never occurred to me.

- Nice scoreboard, did you sticker it? or can you change material?

Neverynnal
01-01-2009, 09:53 PM
Well to be honest I checked out your first version without thinking you had a second version. I thought the first was very well done, and I'll be checking out your newer version soon here. Really, really well done, and I love some of the devices you've put together. Especially that timer switch where you have to hit down the brick wall. Very cool and you present these things so well :) Bravo!

Shiwayari
01-02-2009, 12:03 AM
Thanks for all the feedback! I thought I've never been that good at presenting, but I guess I can do if I try hard ^^.

@BassDeluxe
About rereading the mouths.. yeah I thought that too after publishing it. The thing is, I think it's kind of impossible to make single mouths rereadable, but I could add a piston to the talking tool to make all mouths go off again. I came up with that idea while reading your post just now and don't know if I want to go back and edit it all again as I'm quite busy with my first non-switch level, which is almost finished (since the thermo is giving up soon xD).
And the scoreboard is stickered.



Edit: I just republished the level. I added a new State Switch design which is much better. The new design is Trystian's idea, he suggested it and I added it to my level, crediting him of course.
I also added a new perfectly presice MGS version counter. It uses an emitter and is one normal layer thick, but it's probably the best solution. It only emits a paintball, activating a paint switch. I got the idea to capture a paintball from BassDeluxe when I asked him in the thread of his boss level.

blaze_boi786
01-02-2009, 09:24 PM
This was a very handy level and great effort. The only thing I had not liked was the fact that you used one of the default backgrounds, meaning that the flooring was not your own design. But thats just me. In my opinion, if you had done that aswell, your level would be 10/10! But other than that. brilliant.

Walter-Kovacs
01-03-2009, 08:10 AM
I liked your level a lot. The explanations were good(although small grammar error at the end), and I liked the simplicity of your switches. I think I am actually going to switch from the compact logic gates I picked up to yours. Being able to re-read the info would be nice, you could do it by emitting the mag key on the talking contraption and having the play grab something to activate it. I can't think of anything else, except good job.

talmasca
02-16-2009, 01:00 PM
im interested in what the talking tool might be lol yh ill b checking this when i get home :)