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Dortr
05-10-2011, 08:28 PM
V3 or Virtues versus Vices is a top down tactical player vs player RPG in which you play as multiple classes of one faction throughout the game. Most matches should be either 1v1 or 2v2, but it is possible to do 2v1 or even 3v1 if you really think your hot stuff and can handle it...
The "Good" faction are the Virtues, who are always white and have gold, light blue and pink clothes. The "bad" faction are Vices, who are always black and have red, green and orange clothes. Also the Virtues base/class chamber is always at the top and the Vices base/class chamber is always at the bottom. In battle you begin as a "Ghost" of that faction and are automatically taken to your base then you select a class by hovering over their "life icon" and press X. The ghost will disappear, and the class will be emitted and you start controlling them. Also, each faction has specific elements that they use in battle and they must be used tactically and each class in the factions has 2 standard attacks (L1 and R1) and 3 skills with cooldowns (square, triangle and circle).
Since this game is pretty elaborate and can be confusing... I have found a few ways to make it easier to understand.
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33911
These are all of the elements that will be in the final game... but its possible I may add or change a few..
Melee damage and bladed damage are for both factions because they are "common" attack types. Melee damage has a chance to critical hit for more damage and bladed weapons have a chance to make the target bleed (damage over time).
The Virtues have Lightning, Water, Ice, and Holy currently, but I will have Wind, Solar and Plant elements added later.
The Vices have Fire, Tar, Acid and Plague currently, but I will have Radiation, Lunar and Toxin added later as well.

This is a chart that describes how the current damages affect the factions.
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33909

All damage types do 1 damage or have a chance to take the effect, you can not put the same effect on someone twice (1 exception) but you can have multiple effects on someone at the same time.

Melee damage 1/5 chance crit (5 damage)

Bladed damage If hit 2x in 1 second 1/2 chance to bleed (6 damage over 16 seconds)
>Virtues Damage types<
Ice Damage 1/2 chance to freeze and while frozen you are slowed down for 2 seconds take 2 ice damage so its possible to be frozen again.

Lightning Damage 1/3 chance to be stunned for 3.2 seconds (no movement, rotation or jump)and take 2 damage after .
Water Water can be placed on the ground and only does damage if it is electrified by any lightning attack or frozen by any ice attack and has the effects of those elements if either or both occur. Also water can be used to put out any summoned fire that is on the ground.

Holy Damage If used to attack, it either does 2 or 3 damage and 3 damage staggers (3 mini stuns) but, holy damage can also be used to heal team mates by 4 or 6 per hit.

>Vices Damage Types<
Fire 1/3 chance to burn (4 damage over 8 seconds) Also fire can be used to melt any summoned ice.

Tar Tar slows targets that are hit by it or walk into it for 3 seconds but only does damage if it is set on fire with any fire attack.
Acid Damage 1/2 chance to corrode (2 damage over 4 seconds) but then another acid hit so it could stack and do more damage.
Plague Damage if used to attack plague has 1/4 chance to infect 4 damage over 10 seconds but is contagious and can spread. Plague also heals Vices by 2 per hit and if a Vice becomes infected they heal by 8 over 10 seconds.

The heart Icons represent life heals which I have not yet implemented into skills yet, but it says +10 because you heal for an entire life IF you have lost one.

These are all the classes (life icons) and ghosts I hope to make when I am 100% finished, all selectable in every match.
The Virtues ghost is white and will blink the other color of the class that it is hovering over. (Gold, Light blue or Pink).
The Vices ghost is dark purple and will blink the other color of the class it is hovering over. (Red, Green or Orange)

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33907

the "Life Icons" represent the class and the amount represents how many lives that class has.
The white and purple triangle line bars are the health per life showing 10 hits per life. This picture shows a few (skill less) HUD examples as well as a numerical value for their health. Note: the numerical value is not shown in-game I just wanted to show how much health these classes have.
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33917

Also this is the first set of classes and their "life icons", the "Red Vices" and the "Gold Virtues", of these.. the first 3 of each faction are in the current published version. I will add more as I go and usually make them in pairs, 1 of each faction.
From left to right the classes are..
Virtues: Aegis (Paladin), Courage (Hunter), Charm (Mage) and Mercy (Priestess)
Vices: Ravage (Brute), Fear (Rogue), Malice (Witch) and Scorn (Necromancer)
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33910

This is the first arena... it is small but you can still fight locally. The Virtues bas is at the top covered in ice and the Vices base is at the bottom covered in fire. When you die or first enter you become a ghost of that faction and are automatically taken to your base to pick a class. Also, if you go too far into the other base you will instantly die and become a ghost... stay out of the bases I have it that way for a reason! lol.
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33304

This is a small picture of a part of the newer and larger arena. This is Fear showing off his tar trail attack that can change layers and be set on fire using his "Firecrackers" skill. Also is is throwing one of his knives to the left, one of his other skills.
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33916

This is Malice using her "Bat Summon" skill in which she summons 3 bats that attack any Virtue that gets too close to her.
Also she has just left her base which (In this map the Vices base is covered in acid and the Virtues base is covered in Electricity.)
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33908

This is Charm electrifying his "Pond" skill with his lightning attack. The 2nd picture is him using his "Winter Flake" skill.
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33912
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33913


...Alright I think that about sums it up.. Hopefully it is easy to understand.. lol. If anyone wants to know any more just let me know or visit these links :)

V3 Level showcase LBPC (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?55530-VvV!-Tactical-RPG-Arena-(tons-of-elements!))
V3! RPG Arena (LBP.me) (http://lbp.me/v/y3t9gs)
V3! Tutorial (LBP.me) (http://lbp.me/v/yv1gve)

Dxcam1
05-10-2011, 11:31 PM
Amazing, can't wait to play it. If you ever need a tester let me know :).

Ayneh
05-11-2011, 12:01 AM
Looking good!

For your holo icons I'd recommend using the UV to move the holo textures around a bit (assuming they aren't animated) to give them a more uniform look.

A complex battle system is ok, but it could be a deal breaker depending how you explain it. Reams of text or magic mouths = no. A static screen with two columns/rows like in your post, one for the Virtues and one for the Vices with the different effects of spells in each would probably be the most efficient way.

Another level to queue when PSN is back. <3

Dortr
05-11-2011, 01:28 AM
Well Ayneh since there is so much content to explain in the tutorial I have the effects set up like this.
The sample character will follow you and take all the damages and if you stand on the button it will (yes a mouth...) explain the chances of the effect and/or talk about how to use the element while the sample character is taking the damage. I thought this was a fairly "user-friendly" way to explain them... or show if they don't hit the buttons.
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33301

Also the classes have mouths too but when you press the button they explain themselves and their attacks and skills. When they are talking about the skills the icon for them blinks so you know which one they are talking about... just in case people can't figure it out.
I set up the HUD and the skills in a way that I thought would be easy to understand but some people still have trouble... cant complain though. Only 1 boo! Yay!

Ayneh
05-11-2011, 02:12 AM
Who will actually read 8 magic mouths, though?

You could place little bits of text next to each symbol.

E.g.
Lighting: 33% hit, stun+2dmg
Fire: 33% hit, 0.5dmg ps for 8s
- any more information will just come across as self-indulgent.

Dortr
05-11-2011, 02:36 AM
True but you dont even need to really need to read the mouths if you watch the effect happen above you. Matter of fact its quite hilarious to run through that and see him have like 4 or 5 dots on him :P and be frozen and stuck in tar lol... I enjoy it..

And these 2 are still pretty long do be done in symbols.
Lighting: 33% hit, stun+2dmg
Fire: 33% hit, 0.5dmg ps for 8s
hmm Fire: 33% 5dmg/8s 67% 1dmg?
These percentages are based off of a randomizer though... so they are off but its triggered so often that I think its a decent estimate.
...Plus thats some super RPG fan-talk and I'm sure 10 year old dive ins or those who dont speak English wouldn't understand it too much. Its hard to make it "noob proof" and I want everyone to know how to play.. but I do want the stats for the RPG fans because I feel like its pretty in depth.. and want people to come back and see the new classes!
Im also thinking in game having the numerical ticks pop off you like they do in a bunch of RPGs but its pretty obvious already when it happens so I kinda thought it would be too much.

Qrii_Nakari
05-11-2011, 05:19 AM
http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33910
I couldn't help but notice something... Was it intentional for Scorn to be...rather short compared to the others? Aww, he's such a little man. :P


Im also thinking in game having the numerical ticks pop off you like they do in a bunch of RPGs but its pretty obvious already when it happens so I kinda thought it would be too much.
I remember you mentioned something about this a day ago. Unfortunately, I was not smacked around enough by all of the different damage types to know whether you'd need an extra visual cue or not. It might look like a nice visual effect if you added it in and made it similar to Borderland's. Not sure if you'd really need it though. I'm also hoping it doesn't cause lag for online play. Have you already tried to put it into the actual level?

Now, I got your message about the new classes. Would you like me to respond to it on this thread, on a visitor message, or through private message? ^^

Dortr
05-11-2011, 05:41 AM
LOL Scorn is ity bity! but his enourmous hat wouldn't fit..Also ravage is just a big as fear and Malice... and Mercy is the biggest Virtue...
Wow I did mess up the dimensions... Darn, and I thought this was a cool picture.
Anyways you can respond either place. Whicheva you want.

lololol "Hes such a little man"

Also I'm not adding the numbers until I emit the classes and Scorn and Mercy are done.
In a test I noticed i would not be able to to add another class, but if I emit them I should be able to have all 24 and make them fancier so all around win... just have to change a bit.

Yeah I do want the numbers to be like Boarderlands but a little more animated. I was always sad that Boarderlands only had 4 elements though...

if I wanted to relate V3 to existing games which I guess i should say... its like League of Legends, Fat Princess and Magicka.. or kinda has characteristics similar to those games.

Working on it the next 2 days! All I have been doing is making holos and costumes :P
I need to get back to business!

Qrii_Nakari
05-11-2011, 06:53 AM
LOL Scorn is ity bity! but his enourmous hat wouldn't fit..Also ravage is just a big as fear and Malice... and Mercy is the biggest Virtue...
Wow I did mess up the dimensions... Darn, and I thought this was a cool picture.
Don't change it! The picture's funny. :)

I hope I don't get in trouble for what I'm about to mention. I regard the topic to be somewhat inappropriate, but people do need to know the difference.

I honestly did not know what was "inappropriate" about geishas, until I did a bit of research. I only knew that they were hostesses. The word geisha can be controversial, but only through the eyes of people who are unfamiliar with the culture behind it. There is in fact a huge misconception about what geisha really are and what they do for a living. Basically, they're Japanese entertainers who are skilled in playing music and dancing and have to go through years of training to master the arts. Most of the time, the guests know that they're not going to experience anything more than a friendly gesture (unless if there's some idiot who decides to ask by force). The idea that geisha are them stems from the fact that there were stupid women (I use stupid very lightly here) who wore costumes similar to the geishas' kimonos during some time in World War 2 (Grr..posers :moody: ). Because of that, many Westerners, and possibly some of the modern Japanese, confuse the geisha to be "disgusting filth" that only the low end of the lonely would go after. It's very sad really... In my opinion, giving the class the name Shame enforces that age-old, and very incorrect, view. I don't mean to discourage you from using the geisha as a class, but I just don't think it's right to only think of the geisha as "shameful courtesans of Japan." In a way, it's ironic for the geisha to be on the Vice's side.

What were the other classes for Vice in the new pack other than Betrayal and the Outlaw?

As for different types of attacks, Betrayal would most likely be similar to Fear's styles of attacking. But we'd need more variety to be able to differentiate between the two classes. Perhaps a limited invisibility skill of some sort and a smoke bomb used to confuse others? I don't have many ideas for the classes yet, but I will definitely get back to you on them once I come up with more. :)

Dortr
05-11-2011, 07:11 AM
I really don't know what the other 2 western classes will be.. all I thought about was the Sheriff and the Outlaw, but I'm not too sure about the other 2.
alright I may scrap the geisha.. or make her a Virtue. I just feel that the Samurai and Monk are very suited to be Virtues.

Qrii_Nakari
05-11-2011, 07:22 AM
I'm sorry. :( I do like the idea of having a geisha as a class though. The thought of using a geisha's flowery moves to beat up Ravage seems so funny!

Y'know, this'd be more work for you so I'm not sure if you should implement it, but do you think you need a third faction? (Well, okay fourth if you're going to include the monsters) But perhaps there might be some characters who could be both a Virtue and a Vice with limited abilities from both factions. I don't want to put more on your workload though, since you've already got so many things to work on for this level. It's just a thought. :)

Dortr
05-11-2011, 08:04 AM
The monsters are faction based so I guess they are more like minions, but they use and take the elements respectively... A third faction would be difficult and I would have to change quite a bit. I thought of having The good the bad and the unknown which would fill the third slot, but having an odd number of factions would not make even teams and since you can only have 4 max players it would only make a 3 person free-for-all... Also I'm out of colors... lol. That are different enough. I don't want it to be any more confusing than it is. Thats why I'm kinda easing the game slowly so I can add and people will already know the basics. As well as receive feedback or suggestions so that I can make it better and more balanced.

Updates I already wan't/need to make before I publish a new version.
-Emit classes when picked
-Fix a few incorrect spiny icons
-Finish and put in Mercy and Scorn
-Add animated numerical ticks
-Put "hole/fall death" logic on all classes (for the new map)
-HUD snap to back on all classes
-FIX SCORE FOR THE LAST TIME!

whew... I think thats it. then start on the new class pack and maybe start on the minions.

Oh yeah... I was wondering about peoples opinions about allowing dupes or 2 people on the same side being the same class...
I didn't want people to be able to especially since there will be so many but ya, what do yall think?

Qrii_Nakari
05-11-2011, 08:34 AM
This level/game is definitely a great example as to why LBP needs to support more than 4 players simultaneously. :) I mean, they've kinda got the numbers to reassign the PS3 controllers (of course, those are mostly reserved for the Move controllers), but it seems possible!


-FIX SCORE FOR THE LAST TIME!
And you're sure that every single tag is completely different from each other and that each emitter is emitting the correct characters with those tags, right? It's unfortunate that this problem hasn't been fixed yet. :(


Oh yeah... I was wondering about peoples opinions about allowing dupes or 2 people on the same side being the same class...
I didn't want people to be able to especially since there will be so many but ya, what do yall think?
As long as players are still able to perform teamwork, I'm fine with it. :) But what do you imagine the consequences to be?

Dortr
05-11-2011, 08:44 AM
Score givers are very strange and I'm sure the "death/become ghost logic" counts as an event for player data to be confused and go to the improper player. If it was a tag issue it would not work "most of the time" like it does. I have tried numerous tag set ups that have always had proper tag colors, I wouldn't overlook something like that. The problem is much more annoying.

And the biggest issue with dupes for most games with healers is the whole argument of having dual healers, because that is usually unfair. Mercy and Scorn are the first healers though so now the issue would not be so bad but also.. the healers wont have too much health. Mercy has 20 and Scorn has 30... this completes the chain of both factions having classes with 50, 40, 30 and 20 health. Each class has a "type" counter as well as a "health" counter.
For instance: Since Malice has 4 lives and is a caster (kinda lol) her "caster" counter is Charm whereas her "life" counter is Courage since he also has 4 lives.

Qrii_Nakari
05-11-2011, 07:32 PM
And the biggest issue with dupes for most games with healers is the whole argument of having dual healers, because that is usually unfair.
Hm, I forgot about the healers... Perhaps you can make it so that you can have duplicates of every class except the healers? If you increase the time it takes to heal someone, much like Fat Princess' Priests, maybe that won't be too much of a problem either. :)

By the way, I think that's a valid argument to state if someone did get offended by the new status effect. Not sure if other people would agree with me, but I think it is. :P You should keep it and its results just to see how other players would respond to such a thing. :)

And since you aren't comfortable with putting in supernatural beings in your level, I've been searching high and low of possible characters to replace the geisha:
Sumo (not sure if they actually belong to the Vice side, but I remember that sumo we had to defeat in LBP1)
Corrupt Martial Artist
Goemon (No, not a Digimon :P He's the epitome of Asian bandits)
Shanlin (which are Chinese robbers)

I was thinking about putting in other crime syndicates, but I'm not sure if you wanted that in V3. o_o;
As for the Western pack, maybe you can put a Federal Marshal in the Virtues side and put a Gravedigger, a Gangster, or a Gangsta for the Vices. I know you're not working on the new classes yet, but I just wanted to share.

Dortr
05-11-2011, 08:47 PM
Oooo I like a lot of those! A grave digger! I do want to have unique and/or silly weapons most of the time and a shovel would be a hilarious weapon! I wan't to make a grappling hook for someone too, if it hits the enviroment it pulls you to it but if you use it on an enemy it pulls them to you! The gansters are cool too I could do like a 1930's esque mobster classes. Even though they dont really follow a particular timeline, i still don't want any of the classes to be too modern.
But ya, love the suggestions! I'l look into making costumes for them.

casabolg
05-13-2011, 09:11 PM
My thoughts:

-A Geisha would be a very cool buffer class. Not sure how much that would be useful since the max is 2 v. 2 but it's a nice use for the name.
-the Shogun class would be cool. It doesn't fight directly but instead summons little tiny monsters to fight for it that react differently. The Virtue opposite to the class could be a western-style inventor. Edison maybe?
-Duplicates I am kind of against. It could cause for exploitation and not having it would force people to make strategies on how they play.

Qrii_Nakari
05-14-2011, 03:44 AM
I know it hasn't been that long, but I was wondering how V3 is coming along for you, Dortr. Any updates? :)

Dortr
05-14-2011, 06:21 AM
None whatsoever!
Ive been on here so much more than on LBP... thats kinda stupid huh? plus i'm trying to brainstorm new stuff and you guys feedback helps so much.
And casbolg those are awesome suggestions! Did I tell you I am working on western classes with the whole sheriff and outlaw classes? Cause the inventor would be perfect! Or maybe a miner type guy with dynamite and a pick n such from the gold rush? I wan't to have 4 eastern classes and 4 western for the new colors. So all these classes will be the light blue and green ones.
I really wan't the geisha though :( a green geisha :P
Hmmm I thought of a less offensive vice for the geisha though "guilt" or make her "sorrow"... I like to personify the sadder vices because its easy for me to personify and I don't think it offends the class because anyone could be sad. And Kunoichi are usually disguised as geisha's then would go seduce a target and poison them. Hey! Oooo! What if i named her "Deception" where she is one of those types of Ninjas dressed like a geisha. Hmmm then I could call the monk "Trust" even though most of the time the counters names are not exact opposites...
Anyways any thoughts?
Also casabolg the resons you listed about dupes are the reason I don't have them... also each class has its own tag for specific followers like the effect ticks and sometimes they might transfer inappropriately... so I would have to change that.. plus If someone is fighting over which class to be they can just wait until they die... unless the pereson keeps picking the same one XD I hope people don't I want them to see how to play each one :(

Now I have made changes :P

Changes in progress or done. (So far this list includes Ravage, Fear, Aegis and Courage)

-Score should work flawlessly
-Ghosts are much easier to control and the movement never locks up, they also change to the color of the class you are over instead of blinking (this works for all class colors even though I have not made any of new colored classes)
-Projectiles now have impact detection so you cant camp the bases :)
-All classes have been sped up slightly
-Fears tar is now a skill (no cool down just a button is more appropriate, also lights all touching tar instantly and destroy oldest when max emitted reached is on) and his throwing knives are his L1 attack so he can infinitely throw knives
-Impact sensor for ground based attacks on the bottom of the characters so all i have to do on any summoned ground based attack is put a tag. (this helps with not having mass amounts of chips around the bases or on summoned ground attacks
-Ravages axes are now 2 emitted holograms with rotators and followers instead of emitting several holos in sequence
-Ravages Lava Rock skill is much bigger and better
-HUD snap to back of characters is on
-All classes make a noise or say something in sackbot gibberish when possessed
-Virtues health and lives colors have been inverted, health will always be white lives are color of class same with Vices health is always purple and lives are color of the class too
-A few camera tweaks and all classes have a circle of their class color under them
-Any messed up followers have been fixed
-Fall death logic is on all classes
-Ice cubes were not following like they should so now they do :P So now Ice is more deadly.
-Critical hit does 5 damage to all classes (some it did 3....)
-Cleaned up any unnecessary logic (yes Qrii like that pointless red AND gate on the healthbar :P and a few others)

...I think thats it... I always overlook something even when i publish it... then don't notice until much later or until I'm told.
Also emitting the classes and having less chips on the map should save on thermo so no emitters shouldn't fail.

Qrii_Nakari
05-22-2011, 10:29 PM
Wow! You weren't kidding when you said that there would be massive updates! :o I really do hope the scores have finally been fixed for you! We still need to test it out to see if it's able to work with up to 4 players though. Hopefully, this new update will help fix the "no ghost emitted" issue too. I still think it's funny despite. :)

As for the followers, you made sure you got the ones that continued to linger around after the player died, right? I thought it was kinda funny how one player could die right after being enflamed and the fire symbol would stay there rotating in place. I didn't know the ice cubes were meant to follow too! Now, I'm probably going to be the one shouting, "Agghh! Ice!! It burns! D8" ...Oh wait, that didn't sound right. :P

I'm glad I was able to help a tiny bit in finding unnecessary logic too. :) I was sitting there going, "Okay, so this wire is connected to this wire, which is connected to--wait, where is this supposed to go?" I wonder how much more I'd be able to find once I take a look at your logic once again. :P

Dortr
05-25-2011, 03:06 AM
I actually like the lingering effect icons.. It shows that a player just died there and pretty much how lol. If you see a blood patch with a spiny blood icon and a spiny fire icon its like "Oh... someone definitely died here.." I meant the ones that didn't actually follow... like Courages acid and Ravages plague.. I think thats it...
The new maps will be vastly different and larger than the current map.. also more dynamic. The addition of these means I'l have an arena select in the lobby that emits the map before picking the faction.
The new maps include Rusted Ruins (Has several walls and rooms to protect yourself by hiding behind them and you also have to jump out of the base in this map) and Floating Factories (A giant landmass floating in the air with bridges and an edge that instantly kills you if you are knocked off or walk off..

Also! I will include "layer specific attacks" now. So now you actually have to be physically hit by it to take damage, this also changes ground bases attacks which now can be jumped over :).. if its a thin enough area :P

Also thinking of different match types besides deathmatch including "Destroy the base", "Treasure stealers" and maybe some sort of kind of the hill type thing...
but this is much later :P

Feedback and suggestions are always welcome. :) ..actually encouraged.

Qrii_Nakari
06-15-2011, 02:51 AM
I've been curious about this for a long while now; what exactly does Lunar do? :o And what's the difference between Toxin and Acid in this game?

Oh and here are the abilities I've thought of so far for Betrayal the Ninja:
[L1] - Shurikens for him/her to toss like Fear's daggers
[R1] - Very quick katana slashes that have a some sort of short recharge before slashing again
O - Betrayal can throw out some kind of trap that could possibly move straight in a particular direction and "spit" a random dangerous element either when hit or in the proximity of an enemy. These can be destroyed in one hit.
/\ - Flash stepping that allows the player to quickly move in one particular direction in a set distance (similar to the flash step move in A Wizard Did It)
[] - Tap and you'll do a quick forward stab with the katana; hold it for a couple seconds then let go and then after the stab, Betrayal will perform a whirlwind slash (similar to Link's) that has a chance of sending a small shockwave out in any direction

Of course, you can modify these suggestions any way you like and add elements to whichever one you please. ^^ When I was thinking of skills, I assumed that Betrayal was going to have the same amount of lives as Fear, seeing as they're somewhat similar.