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OmegaSlayer
09-06-2011, 03:05 PM
Seriously, what's all the fuss about cutscenes...
Yeah, again I repeat it.
It's getting so annoying for me.
LBP was a light fun game that I could load and play.
Now I have to go through loads of minutes to watch stories that I don't care about, unskippable, that ofteb lead to level links that don't work or worse, they freeze your PS3.

Is there something bad about making a level that people can play and have fun?
I'm at the point that when a level starts with a cutscene a want to hammer a nail in my head.
People is generally over using this movie function imho

Shadowriver
09-06-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't see anything wrong in moviews ^^' it's still best way to represent story. There should be freedom on what they create, if you dont like it.... i don't care about that too :p

OmegaSlayer
09-06-2011, 03:12 PM
I'm just trying to understand the reason why people want to put cutscenes into levels at any costs.

Sorry I mean long cutscenes, gonna edit the title.

Also...are you stalking me? :boo: You replied so quick :p

Lord-Dreamerz
09-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Well depends on what you think is long and what you are aiming to make.
I think short cutscenes even if your level have a lot of them is OK.
even the great game Limbo and old Sonic games had some... almost everygame has some.
A game needs some form of story even if it''s left untold in words.

People want to make games here... not just mindless levels.

With me and my levels it depends on what I'm creating.
sometimes I make story heavy levels, sometimes I don't.
LBP to me is a general create tool, not just a level create tool.
So I find that people even creating movie levels is fine.
plus I like to create levels that have a lot of the old comedy cartoon feeling.
like my Dareti series level are suppose to be like that somewhat
where you mix a show with game.

Just look at real games. most real games have story.
even older games did... just they did not tell it so much in words or with talking.
*mew

GruntosUK
09-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Its a hate of mine to, especially pushing a button and watch a camera pan across the area to door that was obviously going to open when I pressed the button, I'm not stupid, I dont need to be shown what every button press does. The minute this happens and its un-skippable I quit.

Shadowriver
09-06-2011, 03:26 PM
But yea i hate story less hated muted hint or tutorials too

CYMBOL
09-06-2011, 03:33 PM
I think its just a fun new create tool. Most people use it to set the tone or explain the setting/goal. Even basic arcade games would have a general story sometimes.

Sometimes, it can add just a little atmosphere. Like Mogana's Sackrificed, or Luos's last MM Pick. Those can really help set the tone.

It wouldn't be so bad if level links worked properly. You could then easily set up the skip intro option. Now, most creators have to have two separate levels cause level links lose your friends.

When they done well, they can be entertaining and set the tone for the level, explain the story without having to read speech bubbles through the first half of the game.

Personally, I like it. Especially when its done by a really great creator.

I am actually struggling with this very question for my level, The Explorers. Do I give it a narrative, which would require a short movie intro, or try to make it ad simple as possible?

The appeal of doing the movie is that 1. It's fun for me as a creator, although, it adds LOTS of time. 2. It gives your level a feeling if an "event", not just another quick drop in the bucket in the ocean of community levels.

That's my take. As long as I'm entertained, I'm good with it. :)

OmegaSlayer
09-06-2011, 03:38 PM
Its a hate of mine to, especially pushing a button and watch a camera pan across the area to door that was obviously going to open when I pressed the button, I'm not stupid, I dont need to be shown what every button press does. The minute this happens and its un-skippable I quit.

Yeah, Grant put it in the perfect light here.
It's not the cutscene in itself to be a problem, but the abuse of it.
Once when I had just 15 minutes to play I booted Fifa, then LBP got out and I started to play it.
Now I don't know if I start a level if I'll be able to PLAY it for 10 minutes or if I'll be caught in a series of cutscenes that messes the pace of the gameplay.

kirbyman62
09-06-2011, 04:02 PM
It adds story to a level, which isn't as easy to convey if the player is still in control.

Granted, for non-story levels anything other than a quick "Here's the switch, off you go" is pushing it.

jwwphotos
09-06-2011, 04:07 PM
I guess you could say too much of anything is too much.

..hopefully I didn't use too many characters to say that. :rolleyes:

SnipySev
09-06-2011, 04:23 PM
I don't dislike cutscenes. If people rather go with exposition than narrative weaved into the gameplay, that's fine by me. I just don't like watching through unnecessary cutscenes that could just be explained by a single magic mouth. And when the timing on the sequencer isn't compacted enough and you have to watch like 5 seconds of absolutely nothing happening.

julesyjules
09-06-2011, 05:40 PM
I've been using cut-scenes liberally, so they're as lean and snappy as I can push it. The greater scope is for the narrative is handy , but they do affect the flow of a level more so than the mouths, so to make up for it I've gotten into the habit of making sure they're preceded by a frantic bit of gameplay, to try and make the forced break almost feel more welcome.
But yeh, a dull/obvious cut-scene is dead time.

TheFirstAvenger
09-06-2011, 05:43 PM
I kinda land in the middle with this topic. I don't mind levels beginning with cut scenes if they are well made and actually advance the story. Adding a scene just for the sake of adding a scene is what I have a problem with.

Nurolight
09-06-2011, 05:47 PM
I enjoy it when it's used right.

Something pointless such as a cut away to something that isn't telling you anything new is unnecessary; But an informative beginning (and maybe end) cutscene makes it feel like its own game and not just a level inside LBP.

Shadowstarkirby
09-06-2011, 06:14 PM
I too am in the middle here. I mean, cutscenes should be used for your level's story or introduction of some sort. Morgana's Sackrificed level is a good example of what cutscenes should be used for. She had a great introduction and the cutscenes were used for necessary reasons.

Those "pull the switch and see what happens" levels are good examples of what cutscenes shouldn't be used for. They're usually nothing but a slew of cutscenes which just make the gameplay so long and drawn out, it's just plan boring.

CYMBOL
09-06-2011, 06:38 PM
Its a hate of mine to, especially pushing a button and watch a camera pan across the area to door that was obviously going to open when I pressed the button, I'm not stupid, I dont need to be shown what every button press does. The minute this happens and its un-skippable I quit.

I know. I once played a really well made platformer but I think I spent half the level watching walls move, it steps rise up, etc. Got old real quick.

Lord-Dreamerz
09-06-2011, 07:07 PM
I know this much.
LBP2's story mode did it right~
*mew

JonnysToyRobot
09-06-2011, 07:14 PM
I see what they're there for, but they do irritate me slightly.

The reason is that a story can be told in so many better/different ways that having the recipient sit through a lengthy cutscene. Ideally it should be told without even words, just by the level/gameplay.

biorogue
09-06-2011, 08:02 PM
I think opening scenes are ok, if done right. I'm making one now and the opening is maybe 10 seconds, just to kind of set the tone. I played one level a while back and the opening cut scene was a complete fly thru of the level. I mean from start to scoreboard. My review was: thank you for the movie of your entire level, now I don't have to play it.
And I also hate those ones where you can see the door right there. I played one and you were standing right beside the door and a cut scene would trigger of the door going up, and after the 3rd or 4th time of that, I politely quit.

Aya042
09-06-2011, 08:31 PM
Maximum tolerable length for an unskippable cutscene: 2 seconds.

That is all.

Edit: actually that's not all. From this PDF (http://sighci.org/bit04/BIT_Nah.pdf) about tolerable webpage loading times...


How long are users willing to wait for a Web page to be downloaded before abandoning it? The results from this study suggest that the presence of feedback prolongs Web users’ tolerable waiting time and the tolerable waiting time for information retrieval is approximately 2 seconds.

Okay, so it's a different medium, but it's the same idea - in this case, how long is a user prepared to wait for the experience of playing the level, before they give up and try something else? It's particularly important if you want your level to have any kind of decent replay value - I might be prepared to sit through a minute-long cutscene the first time, but no way I'm doing that on any subsequent plays.

tdarb
09-06-2011, 08:33 PM
i enjoy a lot of them...once. A lot of the time they can be pretty neat, but they can also be annoying.

It killed m in the Toy Story pack, and certain other story levels, to try and ace them when i had to sit through an unskippable cutscene every time I started the level again.

lark98-2
09-06-2011, 09:04 PM
Some people are bad creators who really just don't care!

Mr_Fusion
09-06-2011, 09:33 PM
This is such an interesting discussion, but I think there are two separate issues in here. The long movie cut scenes and bad camera use in game. They both are bad design choices though.

Bad camera use is a heavy handed camera tilt/pan/zoom that is trying to point the player in the right direction. Subtley is the key for these types of in game scenes, a slight tilt does more than a long pan to help players in the right direction. So yes 'over use' is a good term.

Cut scenes being overly long and not skippable is a trap I fell into. And it did hamper replayability of the stage. I added a skip button at the main menu screen and it jumps the entire intro. The way it was built meant that this was the only way around my bad design. An example of it is in my F4F stage Miserable Flying Weather if you are interested (not shameless advertising, because the people in here may dislike it), there are a few short scenes, maybe 5 seconds long that no one had issues with, but there was a lot of feedback about the long intro.

My current project is similar; a mix of 10 second to 1 min cutscenes around a chunk of gameplay, but each scene within the longer parts will be self contained and individually skippable like Chapters on a DVD

I also have a master skip button that will stop the movie and jump to the next gameplay section. The scenes are relevant and are used to invoke a mood for the gameplay.

As for level links; Omega Slayer you seem to have massive problems with them working I usually only play 1P but I don't think I have ever not had one work is this a common gripe?

Ayneh
09-06-2011, 09:50 PM
Maximum tolerable length for an unskippable cutscene: 2 seconds.

That is all.
Yes.http://s92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/Corporeal/dot.gif

fighterwindplus
09-06-2011, 09:52 PM
What i hate is a dragged out scene showing your name. No one CARES about your name! Hurry up and get on with the point!

JKthree
09-06-2011, 10:19 PM
IMO I think the real problem is logic such as sackbot acting, magic mouths etc. going out of whack when someone tries to skip a movie camera because the creator didn't set up his/her logic correctly so that its "skippable friendly" So instead they make them unskippable becuase they don't know how to fix it, and even if they didn't make them unskippable they would have used a crap load of movie cameras and you'd have to mash O 20+ times in order to skip the entire thing.


I remember I had trouble with that too when I was learning about movie cameras and such when i was making my Ape Escape level back in the BETA
This topic is like a friendly reminder to me to put careful consideration on the intro and skipping it when I start finishing my projects

lemurboy12
09-06-2011, 10:39 PM
What I absolutely hate: When I'm trying to ace a level, and I die, I have to watch it all over again.

http://files.sharenator.com/Fffuuu_The_Game-s395x317-59013-535.jpg

CYMBOL
09-06-2011, 11:51 PM
What i hate is a dragged out scene showing your name. No one CARES about your name! Hurry up and get on with the point!

Well, I personally find them fun when they are unique and fit the theme of the level. Sounds like it really upsets you, haha. Well, I suggest you skip my levels then, haha.

I enjoy creating title sequences. I enjoy setting a mood. Also, when I see a really well made title sequence, it let's me know right away that I am in for a treat.

My costume level features a very elaborate title opening. Sure, I could have saved myself a week of designing, but I wanted to immediately establish that this costume level was unlike any other costume level.

Besides, if people are too impatient to watch a 15 second opening, they are probably not the audience I'm aiming for. :)

Like anything in LBP, its just a matter of artistic preference in many circumstances. There is no true right or wrong here, just preference in most cases.

Lord-Dreamerz
09-07-2011, 12:05 AM
Besides, if people are too impatient to watch a 15 second opening, they are probably not the audience I'm aiming for. :)

Like anything in LBP, its just a matter of artistic preference in many circumstances. There is no true right or wrong here, just preference in most cases.

Agreed~

and A nice opening and ending is great IMO.
and if it's the right type of level that it works fine in .
then some in the middle too. without cutscenes you have nothing but brainless boring game play.
if that's something you enjoy then fine. but I need at least some form of story in most of my levels.
And if I make it skipable or not should also be left up to me.
if people don't like my stories then I don't want them playing my levels, simple as that. *mew

like comphermc did cutscenes/story telling, just like how i like it done best in his "The Fourth Wall" level
but I do understand what some of the other people are saying here.
about people not knowing how or when to put cutscenes in the right places in the best ways a lot.
but still there is nothing wrong with people wanting to put lot o story in their levels
if that's what they want. *mew

warlord_evil
09-07-2011, 12:14 AM
What I absolutely hate: When I'm trying to ace a level, and I die, I have to watch it all over again.
There's an option to skip cut-scenes in the start menu. We'll at least there is for the Negativitron boss...

TheMonkeyBlade
09-07-2011, 12:25 AM
I think cutscenes can be really cool, but I hate when there's a level I think is gonna be good so I watch the long cutscene at the beginning and the level turns out to be horrible. It sucks when that happens.

dajdaj03
09-07-2011, 12:52 AM
Well cinematics allows you to present your level, story, or tutorials in a nice and dynamic way. They also allow to guide players during playtrough if needed (as opposed as a simple magic mouth).

But it's like everything, if it overused without any specific purpose, and/or badly done, sure, I agree it can become annoying.

For example some people may think I overused cinematics in my Arabesk levels, but here, it's was a real "direction" choice from me as I wanted a very cinematographic feel to the project, and this even during the playtrough...
Anyway, the cutscene cameras are one of my favorite feature of LBP2, and I know I will always find a way to place (thoughtfully) a cinematic here or there just because it's part of my "artistic and visual" likings, like many other people, and that in some ways it adds a little thing more to a regular level imo.

But, well, yes in the end it's a matter of taste and preference I guess... :)

Lights, camera,.... Action! :p

CYMBOL
09-07-2011, 01:03 AM
Well cinematics allows you to present your level, story, or tutorials in a nice and dynamic way. They also allow to guide players during playtrough if needed (as opposed as a simple magic mouth).

But it's like everything, if it overused without any specific purpose, and/or badly done, sure, I agree it can become annoying.

For example some people may think I overused cinematics in my Arabesk levels, but here, it's was a real "direction" choice from me as I wanted a very cinematographic feel to the project, and this even during the playtrough...
Anyway, the cutscene cameras are one of my favorite feature of LBP2, and I know I will always find a way to place (thoughtfully) a cinematic here or there just because it's part of my "artistic and visual" likings, like many other people, and that in some ways it adds a little thing more to a regular level imo.

But, well, yes in the end it's a matter of taste and preference I guess... :)

Lights, camera,.... Action! :p

Yeah, I was going to mention your level as a perfect example of cinematics being used right. (Sorry, couldn't remember the name). I think cutscenes are just another tool/craft for creators. When used right, it can turn a great level into an epic level. :)


There's an option to skip cut-scenes in the start menu. We'll at least there is for the Negativitron boss...

Toy Story doesnt have this option, and its very annoying when playing again and again to Ace.:(

Mr_Fusion
09-07-2011, 02:48 AM
But, well, yes in the end it's a matter of taste and preference I guess

Your level is a great example of well placed cutscenes. I'm not even sure if you can skip them. They were a good length and interestingly staged so I didn't even try. The intro sets a great mood for the level and the accompanying short cuts to guards are also a great way of seeing the upcoming challenges.

There was only one point in you level where I felt it got in the way of the gameplay a little though, and that was jumping the rafters. It wasn't really a cutscene but, I found it a little hard to line up because of the camera angle. Nothing game breaking and it doesn't ruin replayability. It's like a bit of Uncharted; the jump isn't that dangerous but the way it is shot makes it more serious.

As for ToyStory an example of how NOT to do it. But it's the design of the scene the ship chrashes and you spawn from it. So difficult to build in skipping if gameplay relies on something getting from point A to point B before you can continue, making sure that a button press will stop the movie at any time and emit the object at point B is important.

It's the challenge that I came up against, and was the same for JKthree in the beta. You build yourself into a corner, and the next thing you realize is you need to watch 6 cut scenes each time you test your level.

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 07:22 AM
Now, after a bit of answer I get to the real point :p

The problem is not about levels with great cinematic and stuff.
The problems, as some understood, is that lots of people feels the "compulsion" to add a cutscene in their levels.
In LBP it was the bosses, in LBP2 the cutscenes.
I don't know it's quite like "I must add a boss/cutscene, so people will figure out I'm a cool creator"
What I mean is that no one on LBP is the best in every department (gameplay/visuals/logic/storytelling-cameraworks), so it's better if creators focus on what they do the best, and eventually get some friends to help/fill-in in those departments when they lack a bit.

Mr_Fusion
09-07-2011, 07:52 AM
Yeah, this makes sense. Making stood cutscene requires a different skill set to making a good level, and as you mention you don't need to do it all. But I know I sort of want to try my hand at 'everything' as a challenge.

It also stems from what is popular at the moment. Dracudelishio's Watchmen trailer was sitting atop Mm picks for a long time and gained a fair amount of attention. It's high quality inspired people to add cut scenes to their work, even if it wasn't warranted. As was Arabesk.

I know that they influenced me to take the idea of what cutscenes could be more seriously, and subsequently I am building 'longer' cut scenes than I would have originally envisioned.

Think of Shark survivals and bomb survivals. People make them because they are 'popular'. These can potentially be fantastic stages, but like a cutscene with no reason they more often than not fall flat because little skill, effort or testing was put into the level.

The 'Kill Justin Beiber' stages were part of this, they have dropped away now because people don't play them anymore.

A new trend is vending machine giveaways, but I doubt this will endure.

CompherMC has bought back the stupidly hard level trend. His is good, but there is a slew of levels with *HARD* tacked onto the end, and they're not hard just badly designed.

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 08:43 AM
I started the thread in a provacative way to reach the point, because it was fun :p

I mean, some creators don't understand that if you add to your level something that has not at least the same quality of the gameplay, you're going to ruin your level.
At the same time, if you're great with cutscenes, maybe it's better if you start full fledged movies instead of gameplay levels.
It's not necessary to put everything in your level jus 'cause, just because you can do it.

Having a good mix is really hard.
If I can give a suggestion, try to do different things, see what you can accomplish in different areas separately (movies, gameplay) and how people recognizes and acknowledge your efforts.
Because it's hard to be objective on your own work, but you can get really better if you focus on what you can do better :)

arbiekko
09-07-2011, 09:26 AM
badly designed

Nailed it!

Good design never goes out of style; bad design fakes style. And then even lazier design fakes the fake style. That's what a trend is, really - the easiest, most common expression of something good, until it's been downgraded in quality by so many generations of fakers that it's embarrassing to even think about. So whether it's cutscenes, hard levels, stupid celebrity bait, costumes... when it's done right it's always welcome. And when it's not...

midnight_heist
09-07-2011, 10:17 AM
Hmm.
When I reviewed a level, (LBP1, and early in LBP2) I pretty much yelled at people with unskippable cutscenes.
However after enduring them for so long now, I've given up yelling, I only raise the point.

I also believe the majority of bad cutscene cameras stems purely from a design fault from MM.
To have some sackbot acting, you need a sequencer. (Right? I haven't bothered with them yet)
Which (if I remember correctly) do not have the option to be skippable.
This is just silly.
And if movie cameras are not set to skippable by default, they should be.

The only part of MM's levels that should not be emulated are those freaking cutscenes in between gameplay.

I certainly remember that freaking computer sackbot with the hair in Full Metal Rabbit.
Yeah, I'll go down the S bend, and wait for ever for the sackbot to hack/unlock the next section. Every **** time.
Completely unnecessary. No way to skip it at all. We are trying to ace this level. It gets more and more annoying with each attempt. C'mon! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP_9zH9Q44o)
WHY MM WHY?!

As for the community, it's like people don't want others to replay their levels. And how many creators put effort into the level so it is possible to ace?
Acing a level is a great way to extend your gameplay. Why remove that?!

For my level, I am using magic mouths, skippable cameras (only when needed), and I will only add an intro when/if the level links are fixed.
>=(

TLDR:
I don't think the majority of the community should be blamed for MM's design fault.
But even then, it's still freaking annoying.

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 10:31 AM
I don't blame the community :p

I just lured people in here with a provocation to let them reflect about what they want to achieve in the game, to show that some things done in a certain way annoys some people.

That when a level is under construction, it's not only That's how I want the level to be because I'm artistically liek this, but it's also think hm...people could get annoyed here, how can I work this out better, will this ruin my pace, is this really necessary, or I'm just stubborn and want to show off?

Rogar
09-07-2011, 10:41 AM
I also believe the majority of bad cutscene cameras stems purely from a design fault from MM.
To have some sackbot acting, you need a sequencer. (Right? I haven't bothered with them yet)
Which (if I remember correctly) do not have the option to be skippable.
This is just silly.
And if movie cameras are not set to skippable by default, they should be.

Saying sequencers need a Skippable option is like saying Selectors need a Skippable option, or AND gates. Sequencers just activate a number of events in a sequence, if you want the cutscene to be skippable, stop running the sequencer. If you want a sackbot with recorded acting to stop, just disable the microchip with the recording. It's all entirely possible, just a little more work.

It's not a design fault, either. Mm cannot know how the state of the game should be if someone pressed the "skip cutscene" button, except by playing the entire cutscene. Mm just gives us the building blocks, we creators decide how we use them together.


As for the community, it's like people don't want others to replay their levels. And how many creators put effort into the level so it is possible to ace?
Acing a level is a great way to extend your gameplay. Why remove that?!

Like with skipable cutscenes, I expect many creators just don't consider someone might want to ace it. Or they know it's an issue but don't see an easy solution and have more important problems to deal with. Everyone has different tastes and priorities.

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 11:18 AM
Like with skipable cutscenes, I expect many creators just don't consider someone might want to ace it. Or they know it's an issue but don't see an easy solution and have more important problems to deal with. Everyone has different tastes and priorities.

If you have noticed in 3 years of LBP, there's always been a discussion that comes up every now and then.
It's that people wants new "Level Packs" from MM (MM, not the subsidiaries)
Many argue that lot of creators are better than MM itself (and it's someway true), but MM deisgn the game keeping every potential player in mind.

I mean, it's cool when a respectful relation is build between the creator and the player.
The creator is respectful when the "needs" of a player are fulfilled (fun, balanced and fail proof level), the player is "respectful" when he reaches the scoreboard.

As I said, people doesn't build only for theirselves, that's the biggest LIE on LBP, people build to share with others (otherwise levels will be locked on Moons)
So, in the moment when a creator wants to publish something I think it would be respectful to also think about what the players wants.

Ayneh
09-07-2011, 01:54 PM
If someone could make a tutorial on how to make skippable cutscenes that contain text and sackbot actors and stuff that'd be great. :love:

julesyjules
09-07-2011, 02:02 PM
Skippable?? I spent a week choreographing a 20 second cutscene and you think I'm going to let you skip it??? LOL.

Ayneh
09-07-2011, 02:07 PM
Skippable?? I spent a week choreographing a 20 second cutscene and you think I'm going to let you skip it??? LOL.
Yep, because if I keep dying/having to restart your level and your 20 second cutscene isn't skippable I simply won't play your level if I get bored of watching the same thing over and over again. I probably wouldn't want to replay it in the future either.

rialrees
09-07-2011, 02:27 PM
I'm split down the middle on this one.

I think I know what Omega is getting at - when you play a level where every move you make and every little solution you find is accompanied by a slow, poorly framed cutscene which adds nothing to story or gameplay and only serves to annoy you. I've seen plenty of thiese sorts of cutscenes, and I agree that they are truly irritating - often giving the feeling that they aren't well thought out beforehand.

I am however guilty of using unskippable cutscenes myself, but I notice I've become more and more sparing with them as time has gone by (Disregarding the fact that the majority of published levels on my earth are, in fact, cutscenes lol - I have a few hidden goodies tucked away on my moon). After reading this thread it has actually given me pause, and made me think more about how and why I use cutscenes in a level.

In my most recent, I use two very short cutscenes to show a passageway opening, which the player would not have been able to see otherwise. It also gives a nudge in the right direction, as testers complained of getting lost. Whilst I don't find them too frustrating, I can imagine some people would find them really annoying, so maybe in future I'll try to choreograph things differently, so that events aren't triggered by the cutscene sequencer itself, and allow the cameras to be skippable. So long as I can feasibly do that of course.

However, the majority of levels I'll be working on (for my own enjoyment at least) are very heavily story based, more like an interactive movie than a rip-roaring platformer. I don't think they'll go down so well, somehow... :/

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 02:49 PM
But there's no problem in watching a movie, since I'm aware of what I'm going to play/see... :p

I'm really glad if this thread helped someone to stop by 5 seconds and think.
So thanks Rial :)

Aya042
09-07-2011, 04:08 PM
Yep, because if I keep dying/having to restart your level and your 20 second cutscene isn't skippable I simply won't play your level if I get bored of watching the same thing over and over again. I probably wouldn't want to replay it in the future either.

Absolutely, and if you don't believe us, just google for "unskippable cutscenes", and read the 39,000 other pages of people who don't like 'em either, although the guy who claims the frustration they cause was the reason for the 9/11 terrorist attacks might be taking things a bit too far. ;)

A reasonable compromise used in some games is that the cutscene is only unskippable the first time you see it, which you could probably do with a sticker switch requiring a sticker you pick up just after the cutscene ends.

However, if you're really so egotistical as to believe that your cutscene is so great that people should be forced to watch it every time they play yor level, then, frankly, you need the fist of humility to bop you squarely on the nose.

TBH, though, I suspect the real reason many creators make them that way is that they don't actually know how to make them skippable. :)

Lord-Dreamerz
09-07-2011, 04:16 PM
As I said, people doesn't build only for theirselves, that's the biggest LIE on LBP, people build to share with others (otherwise levels will be locked on Moons)


Then I guess you don't know me very well.
I build only for myself but however I know some people may be interested and enjoy
what I make for myself so I upload it for all to enjoy.
I make a level only in my interests and likes and dislikes.
so if people don't like it I'm not really interested as I did not make it for them to start with.

I have a dream. to make my dreams real. and I've never needed other people
to like my dreams and interests to do so.
I do like to share what I do and create.
and if I find that it's something not to overly important to me and my level,
I'll go ahead and even edit the level in order to make it more enjoyable for others.
plus I want my level to be good as it can possibly be.
*mew

So it's a yes and no to answer what you said.
I create a level 80% of the time only for to make my dreams real.
but at the same time if it don't hurt my Vision for my level
I'll edit whatever to make it more enjoyable for everyone as i can. *mew

but even with all that said.
I know how to make cutscenes just right IMO
and I don't mind making them skippable 70% of the time...
it's easy logic.
*mew

PS: I never make my levels with the mind set for people who want to ace them.
I don't care about acing levels myself outside of story modes.
so I'm not gonna make it needed to ace my levels even if it's something some people like.
So I make sure to give the players nothing if they gone to the trouble of acing~

CYMBOL
09-07-2011, 04:22 PM
Absolutely, and if you don't believe us, just google for "unskippable cutscenes", and read the 39,000 other pages of people who don't like 'em either, although the guy who claims the frustration they cause was the reason for the 9/11 terrorist attacks might be taking things a bit too far. ;)

A reasonable compromise used in some games is that the cutscene is only unskippable the first time you see it, which you could probably do with a sticker switch requiring a sticker you pick up just after the cutscene ends.

However, if you're really so egotistical as to believe that your cutscene is so great that people should be forced to watch it every time they play yor level, then, frankly, you need the fist of humility to bop you squarely on the nose.

TBH, though, I suspect the real reason many creators make them that way is that they don't actually know how to make them skippable. :)

Sheesh, you guys are really upset over these things. Now cutscenes are ego driven or the creator didn't make it skippable because they don't know how.

Wow.

While I see the wisdom behind making it skippable - in the end, its an artistic choice.

You guys are turning an artistic choice you don't care for into personal attacks against people who use cutscenes.

Omega thanks rialrees for "thinking" - I guess anyone who wasn't persuaded to change their artistic choices isn't thinking? And now Aya is generalizing and saying these people are ego driven and need a "fist of humility" on the nose?

This is supposed to be a discussion about artistic choice, not generalizing peoples character traits in a poor light if they choose to create in a way you don't particularly care for.

Sorry, just find the direction of the commentary to be strange and off putting.

julesyjules
09-07-2011, 04:24 PM
Yep, because if I keep dying/having to restart your level and your 20 second cutscene isn't skippable I simply won't play your level if I get bored of watching the same thing over and over again.

Infinite spawns and permanent switches are handy things. You'll only get bored out of your head once, not over & over.




I probably wouldn't want to replay it in the future either.

Like you've said, you don't like cut-scenes in any length, so no, probably not . But people replay (or not) for different reasons. Looking at lbp.me stats, it's likely that 4 out of 5 people will never replay your level anyway, 20 second cut-scenes or none at all.

I replay levels quite rarely myself, is that the norm with the rest of you?



However, if you're really so egotistical as to believe that your cutscene is so great that people should be forced to watch it every time they play yor level, then, frankly, you need the fist of humility to bop you squarely on the nose.

Wasn't being entirely serious there.

I don't think I've played a level with skippable cut-scenes (not intro's), are they out there?

I pondered trying to do a sticker system where you could negate all the scenes on a second playthrough, but it got preceded by other stuff.

CYMBOL
09-07-2011, 04:50 PM
Like you've said, you don't like cut-scenes in any length, so no, probably not . But people replay (or not) for different reasons. Looking at lbp.me stats, it's likely that 4 out of 5 people will never replay your level anyway, 20 second cut-scenes or none at all.

I replay levels quite rarely myself, is that the norm with the rest of you?

Once in while I'll see people come back and play my levels, but if they do, its usually soon after, I assume they brought a friend back?

Personally, I don't care about Acing a non Story level, and almost never replay a level unless I'm showing my family or friends a neat level. But that's just me.

Some people replay quite a bit. Obviously, if its a survival level or something, the intro should Nevada quick as possible.

But again, that's my personal preference.


Wasn't being entirely serious there.

I don't think I've played a level with skippable cut-scenes (not intro's), are they out there?

I pondered trying to do a sticker system where you could negate all the scenes on a second playthrough, but it got preceded by other stuff.

Sticker would be slow and annoying. You could use wireless control connected to Triangle, labeled "skip intro", that would destroy the holo your movie cutscenes is on. And, you could set it up level wide if you have that many cutscenes that they become cumbersome.

There are a few ways you could set it up to end at the push of a button.

Typically, I design a level with the idea that someone will play it once, twice at the most. So, its probably the opposite of being egotistical that I design assuming I'll get one shot to make an immerse experience.

Oh well, we all design differently. :)

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 05:13 PM
It's not about persuading people.
It's about making people to think 2 minutes more.
It's about not being stubborn to think you're 100% right.
No human being is always right.
Figuring out that you can be wrong can help you to grow.
Listen to other people, even if they don't think like you, trying to understand and respect their ideas, even if you don't share them, is always a way to grow

julesyjules
09-07-2011, 05:17 PM
Sticker would be slow and annoying. You could use wireless control connected to Triangle, labeled "skip intro", that would destroy the holo your movie cutscenes is on.

There are a few ways you could set it up to end at the push of a button.

Actually I remember the reason I gave up - I've been using some cut-scenes as an 'off curtain' way of switching bots, just to keep things a bit more managable on the A.I. logic side of things, so it's 6 of one, half a etc etc.

Masseyf
09-07-2011, 06:01 PM
Can feel the love in here ^_^'


Sheesh, you guys are really upset over these things. Now cutscenes are ego driven or the creator didn't make it skippable because they don't know how.


I must admit, Im the latter :/ Ive done all mine on sequences so far... I know the option is/was (didnt check all the in's and outs of new patch yet) there on the vid cam not set on a sequencer tho. On the plus side, I keep mine short, to the point, and once play only.... do I get half a cookie for this?

And I agree it is frustrating when people make CSs much longer than needed and worse again, not set to play once ^_^

I just uploaded an example of a CS Ive used in my current WIP level
Watch on YouTube here (http://youtu.be/A52dN2hKfPg) (for some reason any variant of embedding code doesnt seem to work here :s)

Maybe this ^ CS wasnt needed and I could have done it just with a mouth, but there is a bit to take in and I didnt make it minutes long o.O (most CSs are kept to as close to 10 sec mark as possible, I know the one above is a tad longer)

Aya042
09-07-2011, 06:40 PM
Sheesh, you guys are really upset over these things. Now cutscenes are ego driven or the creator didn't make it skippable because they don't know how.

I'd hoped the inclusion of smilies in the post, and the outrageous 9/11 reference would help to indicate it was a tongue-in-cheek exaggeration for comedy value, but I guess it's hard to interpret the tone of written text. Suffice it to say that, if this was a vocal discussion, you'd be able to tell when I was joking.

To reiterate in a more precise (and more dull) way: I really like some cutscenes, but in most instances I find it irritating if I can't skip them on a replay, particularly when they're long, and/or of little consequence. That's just my opinion, and I don't see why it should be considered any more or less valid than anyone else's opinion.



While I see the wisdom behind making it skippable - in the end, its an artistic choice.

Absolutely. It actually highlights one of the more interesting things about LBP, which is the way in which different people interpret the game. Some see it more as a platform for pure gameplay, whereas others see it more as a platform for arbitrary artistic expression.

Neither interpretation is right or wrong, but there may be consequences for the choices you make. For example, if a significant proportion of people would ragequit a level when faced with a long, unskippable cutscene, then you are necessarily reducing the audience for you level, should it include one.

That's not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing - arguably, as long as you enjoyed the process of creating the level in the first place, then you win either way. It's just something to bear in mind if, say, you're concerned from your level statistics that the vast majority of players never complete the level, and/or the 'boo to play' ratio seems unusually high.

Whether or not the "ragequit" theory has any merit or not is tough to tell, but I find it interesting that, from the opinions of players (not creators) who've posted on this thread so far, many have said they dislike unskippable cutscenes, but not one has actually said they like them.



Infinite spawns and permanent switches are handy things. You'll only get bored out of your head once, not over & over.

Aww. But what about those poor Spotlighters and Contest Crew judges? They often have to play a level over and over in order to form their opinion. ;)

TBH, I suspect the reason that Omega even started this thread was from being fed up with sitting through unskippable cutscenes while judging the LBPC contest entries, and if so, I might even infer from his tone that he'd be less likely to pick a level containing one as a winner, but that's just my interpretation. It certainly factored in to the equation when we used to judge the LBW contests.



Looking at lbp.me stats, it's likely that 4 out of 5 people will never replay your level anyway, 20 second cut-scenes or none at all.

Just checked a few levels out, and a 20% replay stat seems about average. Still, based on the stats from your STAR WARS: A New Hope: Chapter One: err...Etc! (Special Edition) (http://lbp.me/v/z-3b86) level, you can also think of it as 4,000 people who did replay it.



I replay levels quite rarely myself, is that the norm with the rest of you?

Ditto. Unless I'm playtesting (in which case I'd probably highlight the issue) or contest-judging.

Story levels, on the other hand, I might replay many times to get all the prizes, and there was one from the recent Toy Story pack which particularly bugged me. No doubt this is the cause of the bulk of my recent hostility towards them. :)



Wasn't being entirely serious there.

I know. Nor was my reply, but I figured you'd "get" it.



I don't think I've played a level with skippable cut-scenes (not intro's), are they out there?

TBH, I don't see the difference between a cutscene and an intro, really. They both represent a part of the level in which the player is unable to interact with the game, temporarily destroying the flow of gameplay. It's not dissimilar to the way in which film editors will cut a slow scene from the shooting script in post-production, if it disrupts the 'pacing' of the overall experience.

But, sure: Luos_83 included some non-intro cutscenes in a few of his "Sack the Legendary" levels in LBP1, to give the player the backstory, but they worked in such a way as to allow the player to choose whether or not they wanted to watch them or not.

There was another good example from one of his Beh'ta levels, where an early cutscene has a bunch of Sackbots which set up the initial state of the first 'puzzle', so the logic required to skip it was a bit less trivial, but he (and/or Clay) did it none-the-less.



Sticker would be slow and annoying. You could use wireless control connected to Triangle, labeled "skip intro"...

I don't see how that would work. The idea here is to implement a system where the player is forced to watch the cutscene on the first playthrough, but not on any replays, and given LBP's lack of persistence, it's not that easy to accomplish in a user-friendly way.

Sackpapoi
09-07-2011, 06:43 PM
Can feel the love in here ^_^'



I must admit, Im the latter :/ Ive done all mine on sequences so far... I know the option is/was (didnt check all the in's and outs of new patch yet) there on the vid cam not set on a sequencer tho. On the plus side, I keep mine short, to the point, and once play only.... do I get half a cookie for this?

And I agree it is frustrating when people make CSs much longer than needed and worse again, not set to play once ^_^

I just uploaded an example of a CS Ive used in my current WIP level
Watch on YouTube here (http://youtu.be/A52dN2hKfPg) (for some reason any variant of embedding code doesnt seem to work here :s)

Maybe this ^ CS wasnt needed and I could have done it just with a mouth, but there is a bit to take in and I didnt make it minutes long o.O (most CSs are kept to as close to 10 sec mark as possible, I know the one above is a tad longer)

I think I have your solution. Now this is off the top of my head, so I can't guarantee it's 100% accurate.
After you've finished all of your camera settings and acting (basically have finished the cutscene), place a controllinator. The player will insert this in the beginning of the level.
Place an "OR" gate, and then place a counter set to 1.
Connect the "circle" output to the counter. Then connect the counter to the "OR" gate.
Connect the OR gate to the input "eject player" on the controllinator.
Connect the very last camera's output to the OR gate also.
Connect the output of the counter to the "reset" input on the sequencer. That should stop the cutscene and eject the player. And the best part is that you can choose to watch it or not. Everyone wins!
Maybe the cutscene is a significant part of the plot, and the level would not make sense without it. Just a guess. :)

Ungreth
09-07-2011, 06:50 PM
Its a hate of mine to, especially pushing a button and watch a camera pan across the area to door that was obviously going to open when I pressed the button, I'm not stupid, I dont need to be shown what every button press does. The minute this happens and its un-skippable I quit.

Unfortunately, if you don't include a cut scene to show which door was opened by the lever then you'll have the idiot brigade frown facing your level because you "didn't show me where to go next". :rolleyes:

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 07:22 PM
TBH, I suspect the reason that Omega even started this thread was from being fed up with sitting through unskippable cutscenes while judging the LBPC contest entries, and if so, I might even infer from his tone that he'd be less likely to pick a level containing one as a winner, but that's just my interpretation. It certainly factored in to the equation when we used to judge the LBW contests.

To clean my position, it won't favour my decision, though being a judge, playing lots of levels and replying questions about the contests lead me to think.
I tried to hint in my replies that people has to focus on what the rules requires.
But I saw it didn't help, so I came out with a provocatory thread where people can discuss and maybe think about a couple of things.
In many levels I just perceived that people put their efforts more on cutscenes that the level itself and that asking people to compress thing in a level thus reducing cutscenes seemed someway an outrage.

So I really was: "What the hell..."
Is an intro/insane amount of cutscenes really sooooo needed in every level?
And at least I would have liked to know a reason, because I'm curious.
And because I saw lots of efforts directed in the wrong direction.

Rogar
09-07-2011, 07:23 PM
Unfortunately, if you don't include a cut scene to show which door was opened by the lever then you'll have the idiot brigade frown facing your level because you "didn't show me where to go next". :rolleyes:

Which is why we suggest making it skippable and leave the decision up to the preference of the player.

Of course, then you'd get players complaining it let them skip important information. But then, who are you catering for, the idiots or the replayers? ;)

julesyjules
09-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Absolutely. It actually highlights one of the more interesting things about LBP, which is the way in which different people interpret the game. Some see it more as a platform for pure gameplay, whereas others see it more as a platform for arbitrary artistic expression.

See what I find interesting is that I don't want cut-scenes in every level. Play a typical Jackofcourse level, purely for example, and cutscenes would be intrusive and annoying to me. On the other hand I wouldn't want an Elvenbane level without them. I don't know if that's because as a player you bring along certain expectations from certain creators, or the nature of the level. Maybe it's about setting out your stall in the first 10 seconds about the type of level the player is letting themselves in for, and the expectations and reactions to certain elements change accordingly...


Just checked a few levels out, and a 20% replay stat seems about average. Still, based on the stats from your STAR WARS: A New Hope: Chapter One: err...Etc! (Special Edition) (http://lbp.me/v/z-3b86) level, you can also think of it as 4,000 people who did replay it.

Yeh, I used the stats more to illustrate that cut-scenes potentially don't affect the replay value as much as one would think. I'm guessing the levels that get the best replay value are pure gameplay, (the ones that work well anyway) but as a general rule, having a handful of cut-scenes doesn't seem to bring the replay count down to less than other comparable but scene free levels....I tend to replay levels that were simply a great overall 10 minutes - cut-scenes, warts and all. We play the Story Levels over and over mainly because we have to GET THAT STUFF. After about 3 successive plays I go into autopilot with them, it's a slog. Community levels don't work that way, unless you're gunning for a high score they can be replayed at leisure, so I don't think the template in regards to the 'ideal' amount of dialogue and cinematics with MMs stuff necessarily carries over into the community levels...

Apologies, I typed 'level' too many times, but choices are few.

OmegaSlayer
09-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Lol, though there are pins for playing the story levels for insane amounts of minutes :p

Lord-Dreamerz
09-07-2011, 07:46 PM
Lol, though there are pins for playing the story levels for insane amounts of minutes :p

I think I got that Pin :0
I loved the story mode very much :D

TheUltraDeino
09-07-2011, 07:53 PM
The only problems with cutscences are if in the Toy Story levels, trying to ace them (eventually I did, though)

Masseyf
09-07-2011, 10:09 PM
I already want the move health warning to be skippable... I dont have move ^_^'

Like when piracy ads always came on before the film you rented/bought and you thought, if I pirated this I wouldn't have to watch these stupid ads!

Uncuddly
09-08-2011, 02:50 AM
It's interesting that unskippable cutscenes are undesirable but that many of us are admitting to not having considered the option at various points. One could criticize an unavoidable five-second door-opening but sit through a five-minute cinematic without even checking to see if a skip is available. I see creators expressing concern about the cutscenes they've used but I can't recall wanting to skip any movies in the levels I associate with those users. On the other hand, various stages have provided playable sequences that I have dearly wanted to end early!

I enjoy the typical "frustrating platformer" but it's hard to tolerate sections where a series of trivially easy jumps are capped by something legitimately tricky. Initial attempts at this challenge result in almost certain death. That would be fine normally. A little learning curve is welcome. What's less compelling is trudging back through nothing of value to have another go at the good part! :moody:

With an unskippable cutscene you still have meta-options. "Well, time for a drink. I wonder if the dog has water. Maybe I'll have a waffle for breakfast tomorrow." When you're navigating a trivial level segment, though, you have to stay focused on the unhappy task or risk an extra trip to the checkpoint for carelessness. A little forced exposition won't seem so bad once you've gone across the same simple platforms half a dozen times!

Some cutscenes are so neat or justified that we may not notice whether it is possible to skip them. Some playable challenges have such great distances between checkpoints that they become live-action unskippable cutscenes themselves. Keeping the game on its feet and not asking players to repeat segments of limited novelty should be a goal that extends far beyond the movie camera! :)

Mr_Fusion
09-08-2011, 02:54 AM
I just uploaded an example of a CS Ive used in my current WIP level


I think this is an acceptable use of an in game cutscene, but I would want to also be able to skip it if I were to play the stage again.


Actually I remember the reason I gave up - I've been using some cut-scenes as an 'off curtain' way of switching bots, just to keep things a bit more managable on the A.I. logic side of things, so it's 6 of one, half a etc etc.

A julesylules stage without cutscenes would be horrifying, but a reason you can structure so many little cut aways from the action is because of the subject matter. And I wouldn't care if your cut scenes were skippable or not on replays.


Unfortunately, if you don't include a cut scene to show which door was opened by the lever then you'll have the idiot brigade frown facing your level because you "didn't show me where to go next". :rolleyes:

Nit inferring you lack of skill, but if a creator NEEDS to show you that a button they presses opens a door somewhere, maybe the button is in the wrong spot... Again not a failure, because it is justifiable, but I'd personally question the reason behind choosing to show the door opening.

Also something I learned in a different life about editing and the rule of 3's... A 3 second shot is usually long enough for someone to take in the scene, most cuts in a longer shot should only be around this length, much longer like 5 seconds and it'll feel boring. The mind has already processed the information presented and is now waiting for more information.

Faster cuts can be used to convey action because the brain can't keep up so it has to race along. A decent speed for a pan across a room full of danger would also be 3 seconds for something to get from one side to the other.

Also cutting to something after something else has happened isn't good for 'flow'. This is a little tricky to explain but using the button/door example if you trigger the cutscene with a range sensor JUST before the player lands, cut to the door already in the processor opening and back to the player BEFORE the door stops moving, and it all happens within 2 seconds it'll feel pretty seamless to the player, as there is no stage where anything is static.

The logic to do this cleanly... well... That's down to skill in your designs, just like the skills to make a platform stage flow nicely. Something I'm in no way good at yet.

Det
09-08-2011, 05:27 AM
I'm skipping the whole thread just to post what I want to say.

Let people skip cutscenes, even if they're important to know the goal of the level or important to the story. No matter how much you can claim the story is an important part of the production, it is never as important as allowing people to skip it. I'm sorry, anyone that put effort into their writing and painstakingly constructing their movies, but being able to simple press of the button X to ignore all of that work is more important than seeing the work made for it.

Stop hyping intros to levels. I want entries on the level lists that are actual levels.

Also, stop using magic mouths to put words into my sackboy's mouth (for other characters, it is okay), especially if your level has some sort of atmosphere or implied mood. That is the fastest way to tear down your work by ruining my imagination and interrupting my gameplay.

OmegaSlayer
09-08-2011, 05:37 AM
I guessed I reached my purpose, showing that there's at least a part of the community, that just want 5 minutes of fun.
(BTW julesyjules is awesome and his levels and cutscenes are insanely fun)

As I said, think whetever your level needs a cutscene or not.
Try to think how it fits into a level pacing, if it hurts the level or really add something much.

arbiekko
09-08-2011, 06:57 AM
Hopefully without seeming like a shill, I'll share a recent raw video capture of my level (courtesy of Pookachoo!) to show what I consider an appropriate length/unskippable cutscene. It's squirreled away so you only have to look at it when you take on hard mode... runs about 9 seconds in sync with a song and with subtitle information, full-level pan, it's minimally intrusive but needs to be unskippable to give just enough time to convey the information and queue up the song...

Okay I can't find it. I set up the Youtube account with so many private options that it's not searchable! Whoops!

Okay so just imagine an LBP2 level with a well-done 12 second unskippable video. That's what I did! Good job, arbiekko. ^^;

Ungreth
09-08-2011, 05:44 PM
I have toyed with the idea of making my cut scenes optional but placing cams/magic mouths on a sequencer removes the skip option. I could probably figure this out with experimentation, but indulge me...what is the best way to make a sequencer based cut scene skippable?

Det
09-08-2011, 07:33 PM
For magic mouths, you'd probably have to have some sort of toggle that activates when you press the skip button and it skips the magic mouths.

I've never actually done such a thing though, so I can't be certain if that will work.

Masseyf
09-09-2011, 01:45 AM
Well I'm fairly close to your thinking on this subject omega, but I gotta say I'm a bit shock. I made a clip level a couple of weeks ago and although statistically given the tiny play count it's not worth that much, but interesting all the same - the clip isn't great, I'd personally give it 3-4 outta 10 and yet it's got 1/3 hearted and 2/3 rate up and no rate downs :s

I guess the masses like their clips!?

OmegaSlayer
09-09-2011, 06:40 AM
http://lbp.me/v/5et3j3
It clearly has the Movie "Tag" Masseyf.
When people enters it, they know what they'll found. :)
I have no problems watching a movie.
The problem is watching a cutscene for 5 minutes and platforming 1 minute. :p

Rogar
09-09-2011, 08:36 AM
I have toyed with the idea of making my cut scenes optional but placing cams/magic mouths on a sequencer removes the skip option. I could probably figure this out with experimentation, but indulge me...what is the best way to make a sequencer based cut scene skippable?

I haven't actually done something like this either, but it would be something along the lines of: stopping or resetting the sequencer, activating a camera for 0.1s if the camera view needs to be restored, and activating any set pieces that need to be changed after the scene (like doors opening).

To activate I'd use a controlinator that receives input from the nearest player. Come to think of it, do button presses still register during a movie camera shot with the black bands?

Mr_Fusion
09-09-2011, 09:36 AM
To activate I'd use a controlinator that receives input from the nearest player. Come to think of it, do button presses still register during a movie camera shot with the black bands?

This is the main problem the black bands appear when you select 'disable player controls' I once had my player running around in a scene like this and a bug that broke the game section because of button presses during a cutscene.

I have been thinking about this for a while and have a pretty decent solution to 'chapter skip' but I need to build out the proof of concept this weekend to see if I can get it working during the 'black banded' cutscenes.

Protoraptor
09-09-2011, 10:29 AM
I do agree with Omega, a lot of cutscenes are very boring, especially ones which show you a door has opened - Right next to you.

However, some cutscenes are pretty well done, and I watch the Factory of a Better Tomorrow cutscenes just to hear Clive's awesome lines.

tdarb
09-09-2011, 08:27 PM
This is the main problem the black bands appear when you select 'disable player controls' I once had my player running around in a scene like this and a bug that broke the game section because of button presses during a cutscene.

I have been thinking about this for a while and have a pretty decent solution to 'chapter skip' but I need to build out the proof of concept this weekend to see if I can get it working during the 'black banded' cutscenes.

Just pop the player into a controlinator with controls disabled and activate the camera from there. you can have no black bands AND no controls interfering.

Aya042
09-09-2011, 08:57 PM
I have toyed with the idea of making my cut scenes optional but placing cams/magic mouths on a sequencer removes the skip option. I could probably figure this out with experimentation, but indulge me...what is the best way to make a sequencer based cut scene skippable?

If you're controlling sackbots, it's pretty simple. Just don't use the "Disable Controllers" option on the movie cams, and fake it by severing the connection between the controlinator and the sackbot, leaving one button enabled which you can connect to the sequencer's reset input.

If you're not controlling sackbots, it's simplest (if possible) to temporarily suck the player(s) into controlinators, replace them with sackbots, and use a similar technique, else it's a complete pain in the butt - you'll need to take your movie cams off the sequencer, set them to skippable, trigger them with batteries on the sequencer (keeping the lengths the same), and use a bit of logic to determine whether the output of the movie cam went high because the player skipped it or not, and use that to reset the sequencer.

If you're using Magic Mouths in a non-subtitle configuration, you can also capture the output from those in a similar way to determine if the player pressed circle or not, but you'll have the same problem, i.e. did the output go high because the player pressed circle, or because it reached the end of its duration on the sequencer?



...stopping or resetting the sequencer, activating a camera for 0.1s if the camera view needs to be restored...

Resetting the sequencer automatically restores to the default cam view.



To activate I'd use a controlinator that receives input from the nearest player.

Which is kinda okay, except in a multiplayer game, only one of the players will be able to activate it.



Come to think of it, do button presses still register during a movie camera shot with the black bands?

No, but you can disable that option, and trap the players in an invisible 'cage' for the duration.

comphermc
09-10-2011, 12:17 AM
Seriously, cutscenes are a cancer to LBP! /s

I think it's been said already, but the problem you're having is poorly done cutscenes. When done correctly, they enhance the experience you get with a level. I'll just leave this here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEIIt5KhvkY

I think it just comes with the fact that cutscene and movie-making tools are relatively new to the LBP creator crowd. Maybe they are inexperienced with what works and how to do things well technically. Give it time, and you should see the use and quality of cutscenes improve over time. In fact, I'm thinking about doing a tutorial on skippable cutscenes/movies.

sp0ngyraver
09-10-2011, 02:30 AM
I am doing a level series that is supposed to play out in sort of an interactive movie format, these levels would NOT work at all without cutscenes, I might as well just get rid of all the story and make it another run-n-gun survival level like all the kids seem to love.

I'd like to think that my camera skills are a LITTLE better than what people here seem to be mad about, I have seen some cutscenes that look like no effort was put into them. I spent a lot of time learning how to transition the cameras smoothly, and how to sync up sackbot acting and magic mouths correctly. I just need to make it look more like an actual movie, which often has a lot of quick cuts between facial close-ups, with landscape or building shots thrown in between scenes, and less like a video game cutscene. You also can't forget a cheesy montage, Gotta throw one of those is somewhere!

GameRoom
09-10-2011, 02:49 AM
My strategy is to make a section of dialogue every couple of checkpoints, but make it short and witty to keep the audience entertained.

sp0ngyraver
09-10-2011, 05:21 AM
However, the majority of levels I'll be working on (for my own enjoyment at least) are very heavily story based, more like an interactive movie than a rip-roaring platformer. I don't think they'll go down so well, somehow... :/

I think that's one thing ppl on this thread seem to be ignoring, what about levels that have a lot put into scripting and storyboards, just like a cinematic story? I think levels like the ones you are describing sound awesome. My favorite games growing up were games like Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Sure this game had hours of unskippable cutscenes, but really, how important do you think that game would have been to me without it? The story in that game is what got me so into video games to begin with. Some of us want to tell a story of our own, too, and why should we limit ourselves to just a few magic mouths when we have all these tools perfect for creating as much as a full on MOVIE series if we wanted to?

jump_button
09-10-2011, 07:57 AM
I take the Mario way of story telling, Dont go over top just show what you need to keep thing moving to next

OmegaSlayer
09-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Seriously, cutscenes are a cancer to LBP! /s



Sarcasm not??? :p

Comph, using a diamond to state that all stones are precious...

The point is just figuring out how much you need a cutscene in a level or not.
Not how much cutscenes can be good.

sp0ngyraver
09-10-2011, 09:50 AM
It seems it's just a difference in playing style. Some of my friends have not watched one skippable cutscene in any game, they simply don't care about any story whatsoever. To each his own I guess, seems a bit barbaric to me, though. ME WANT SMASH ENEMIES NAO!!!

SnipySev
09-10-2011, 01:12 PM
How can you make a scene skippable? Is it an option in the sequencers/movie cameras or does it require some logic?

GameRoom
09-10-2011, 04:08 PM
If you don't use a sequencer it's a tweakable option.

Strodigy
09-10-2011, 05:00 PM
Its a hate of mine to, especially pushing a button and watch a camera pan across the area to door that was obviously going to open when I pressed the button, I'm not stupid, I dont need to be shown what every button press does. The minute this happens and its un-skippable I quit.

But it's a technique used in numerous video games, and isn't that what LBP(2) aims for? To help us make our own games to the extent of our imagination. There's nothing to complain about, just have some patience i guess. But if MM wanted to appeal to everyone (for those who enjoy cutscenes and those who don't) they might as well add the option to skip cutscenes in community levels.

Ungreth
09-10-2011, 05:04 PM
If you're controlling sackbots, it's pretty simple. Just don't use the "Disable Controllers" option on the movie cams, and fake it by severing the connection between the controlinator and the sackbot, leaving one button enabled which you can connect to the sequencer's reset input.

If you're not controlling sackbots, it's simplest (if possible) to temporarily suck the player(s) into controlinators, replace them with sackbots, and use a similar technique, else it's a complete pain in the butt - you'll need to take your movie cams off the sequencer, set them to skippable, trigger them with batteries on the sequencer (keeping the lengths the same), and use a bit of logic to determine whether the output of the movie cam went high because the player skipped it or not, and use that to reset the sequencer.

If you're using Magic Mouths in a non-subtitle configuration, you can also capture the output from those in a similar way to determine if the player pressed circle or not, but you'll have the same problem, i.e. did the output go high because the player pressed circle, or because it reached the end of its duration on the sequencer?

I use a combo of movie cams and subtitled magic mouths mounted on sequencers to make my cut scenes, so I guess that makes things complicated. From what you're saying it seems as though there is no "simple" solution where sequenced/non-sackbot controlled cut scenes are concerned, and for the purposes of this thread, perhaps that just shows why so many cut scenes don't come with an option to skip.

Ayneh
09-10-2011, 05:16 PM
I think that's one thing ppl on this thread seem to be ignoring, what about levels that have a lot put into scripting and storyboards, just like a cinematic story? I think levels like the ones you are describing sound awesome. My favorite games growing up were games like Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Sure this game had hours of unskippable cutscenes, but really, how important do you think that game would have been to me without it? The story in that game is what got me so into video games to begin with. Some of us want to tell a story of our own, too, and why should we limit ourselves to just a few magic mouths when we have all these tools perfect for creating as much as a full on MOVIE series if we wanted to?
I don't think it's a question of excessive or badly done cutscenes, just not being able to skip them.

You can have 100 cutscenes in your level and I wouldn't mind, but not being able to skip them sucks. What if I'm playing your level for the third or fourth time?

RickRock_777
09-10-2011, 05:58 PM
I agree with OmegaSlayer...make these Movie/Cutscene Intros skippable...at all costs :).

In fact, I think somewhere in the definition of boring is the word "non-skippable" ;). Why would anyone want to force a player to watch something over and over again in a level where the creator is hoping for replays (that's not feeding an audience...that's just feeding someone's EGO).

The "only" reason to make a Movie/Cutscene non-skippable is if the level is simply a Movie/Cinematic, with no gameplay content intended. I'll watch a movie, if it's entertaining...but I like to change channels when the commercials come on.

Aya042
09-10-2011, 08:39 PM
From what you're saying it seems as though there is no "simple" solution where sequenced/non-sackbot controlled cut scenes are concerned...

Regardless of complexity, I'd still say it's worth implementing if you can, but julesyjules raised a fair point about the infrequency of level replays, so if making all your cutscenes skippable would be a major thermo hit, I guess it's reasonable to spend that thermo on something else instead, for a 'regular' level.

For a 'minigame' level like your Scrumpy Sack one, though, which is more likely to be replayed, I'd say it's always worth spending the thermo to ensure any cutscenes can be skipped.



The "only" reason to make a Movie/Cutscene non-skippable is if the level is simply a Movie/Cinematic, with no gameplay content intended.

Well, it doesn't matter if the level is set to type "Cut Scene" in the "Gameplay Controls" menu - you automatically get a "Skip" option in the Start Menu, which makes it ideal for intro cutscenes.

sp0ngyraver
09-11-2011, 12:13 AM
Most of my cutscenes are actually in a separate cutscene level. I have one playable level with a lot of cutscenes that would be hard to make skippable (I have emitters on the sequencer at the moment, and stopping the sequencer would cause later parts of the level to bot load, as it stands now), but this level is an intro-style level to the entire series.

nerzdadestroyer
09-11-2011, 08:49 AM
cutscenes are awesome. there are plenty of levels with no cutscenes/ short cutsecenes. you just need to look for them. lbp.me is brilliant for that, friends can help. they may have played agreat platformer and could suggest it to you. have discussions on levels and play em and you will find some golden levels with no cutscenes i bet you.

if i were to make an intro cutscene, i would do it in a level. and thats not just because i respect the way sp0ngyraver creates ( tho i do, your brilliant ) it makes the cutscene skippable. without having to enter the cutscene you can go to the actual level.