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View Full Version : Bioshock Infinite Story Discussion *BEAT GAME BEFORE ENTERING*



RockSauron
03-28-2013, 12:55 AM
So. I just beat this game. Honestly, not too sure what to make of the ending. Or 100% sure what happened. Huh.

Well, I won't want to spoil it for people mousing over the topic description, so I won't spoil anything here. But for those of you who beat the game, what are your thoughts?

bonner123
03-28-2013, 01:45 AM
The fifteen minute exposition dump by a suddenly omnipotent Elizabeth was probably not the best execution but I thought it was interesting.

RockSauron
03-28-2013, 01:57 AM
Yeah, I didn't really get it at first, but now, after watching videos, I somewhat understand.

The whole nationalism/religion thing didn't really factor in as well as the twist to the original did, but the infinite loop was pretty interesting. Would have liked to have been able to understand it without watching a few videos, but yeah

SnipySev
03-28-2013, 10:35 AM
I'm still trying to work out the details... but if I understood the ending correctly, this is what happened: all those realities differ based on Booker's choices. In the realities where Booker sold Anna/Elizabeth to Comstock to clear his debt, Comstock got the child he needed to fulfill his mad prophecy.

Booker intended to remove Comstock from all the realities by killing him when he was a baby, but in doing that, his choices would just create more diverging universes where Comstock would be alive. He comes to the realization that he's the root of the problem, that all versions of history where Comstock rises to power happened because of him. So he lets her (and her other versions) drown him.

It's a bit of a mindscrew though, and a lot of things are still very unclear to me. What was the role of the Luteces in all this? Did they guide Booker troughout Columbia to fulfill Comstock's prophecy of the "False Shepherd", or did they want to redeem themselves for enabling Elizabeth's abduction?

I definitely need to collect all the voxophones, since I missed 20 or so. Maybe they'll clear some things up, especially if they involve Rosalind Lutece or Comstock.

My favorite surprise was definitely when I stepped into Rapture. So familiar, yet so surreal. For a moment, I was as shocked as Booker himself. That moment could've lasted a little longer.

I was a little disappointed about the way they changed the content we saw in the E3 2012 demo, when Elizabeth tries to revive a horse and accidentally opens a tear into the 80's, where they see a theatre showing the Revenge of The Jedi and hear the Tears for Fears song. It had a much bigger impact than just seeing her open that tear from behind a one-way mirror before we met her. I think it's a shame.

bonner123
03-28-2013, 12:01 PM
Hearing a folkish / carnival rendition of 'Girls Just Wanna Have Fun' made my day.

SnipySev
03-28-2013, 12:18 PM
I just read a theory that seems to make a lot more sense than mine. The baptism in the creek created the two distinct universes that matter: one where Booker refuses to be baptised, becomes a Pinkerton agent and fathers Anna. And one where he accepts it, takes the name Zachary Comstock, founds Columbia and takes his own daughter from another version of himself. The version we play with is the first one, whose mind has blocked the memory of giving his daughter away.

It explains why Booker says he's both at the end. And it explains why Comstock wanted Elizabeth specifically instead of some random child. What it doesn't explain is how Comstock is much older than Booker...

RockSauron
03-28-2013, 12:50 PM
There was one Voxophone (on the beach I believe) that said there was no record of Comstock before a certain date.

So what I believe is that everything was on an infinite loop. The Booker that you play as rejected his baptism, and gambled away his daughter and all that. He hid these memories, and eventually was brought to Columbia and concocted his story to "bring them the girl and wipe away the debt".

What was SUPPOSED to happen was that Booker "died" when the Vox attacked the airship. Elizabeth would go on to become the one who attacked the world below we saw, and Booker would travel back in time to his baptism. Only this time, he'd accept it, and go on to become Comstock and kidnap his daughter from another reality. So that's why Comstock was 20 years older than Booker.

The thing is that Comstock KNEW all this would happen- he was a "prophet" because he saw all this before. So when you kill him, he KNEW you would kill him, and that these were the events that were supposed to lead to Booker becoming Comstock, so he accepted it because this was the way things were. You could tell this because the events of the game are lined up on the monument wall right before him, and he told the biographer in a voxophone "I know how it ends".

The thing that changed this time was that Elizabeth from the future gave Booker the note, with the "CAGE" on it. This told Elizabeth from their time the musical notes (C, A, G, and E) to get Songbird to protect them, and helped them get to and destroy the Siphon. Originally, they weren't supposed to do that, but now they did. And Elizabeth was able to be there when Booker was accepting his baptism. Therefore, she killed him in order to stop him from ever becoming Comstock in any realities, and quite possibly dooming all of creation in the process. Who can say?

As for the Luteces, I think they were just some scientists who discovered a particle that could exist in two dimensions. They themselves were from two separate realities, perhaps even the same person only with different chromosomes. The guy mentioned that he "lived it", referring to creating new memories when stepping between dimensions, so when he crosed over into her dimension, he altered his memory a bit to compensate for this.

SnipySev
03-28-2013, 01:43 PM
That's a pretty good explanation. There's still the question why Elizabeth had her powers in the first place. Rosalind Lucete could get a machine to open these tears, but why would Elizabeth have this ability? Maybe because she was exposed to the tears at such a young age? Or did Comstock order the Lucetes to experiment on her?

The post-credits scene is curious as well. Maybe Elizabeth eliminated all the dimensions where Booker goes to the baptism, but somewhere in the multiverse there's a version of reality where he never did?

RockSauron
03-28-2013, 02:10 PM
I think Elizabeth just had the ability, and that's that. After all, wasn't the machine siphoning her powers?

SnipySev
03-28-2013, 02:15 PM
That sounds pretty darn strange though, a random child born with powers which make her virtually omnipotent.

RockSauron
03-28-2013, 02:17 PM
Well, in a multiverse of infinite possibilities, whose to say one random girl wouldn't possess the gift?

SnipySev
04-01-2013, 04:18 AM
The Elizabeth who accompanies you throughout the game isn't among the Elizabeths who drown you at the very end. The first one looks like her but Booker notices she's not the same. Why? Because the necklace she and the others are wearing isn't the one you chose for her!

And I finally got Rosalind Lutece's line at the very beginning, when she says Booker "doesn't row". It means he doesn't row in any of the universes they have visited. Like the coin flip that always results in heads, it's one of the constants across the multiverse.

So many clever details.

Edit: I found this timeline on reddit. It really clears some things up:

http://i.imgur.com/uTXdy0C.jpg

RockSauron
04-01-2013, 12:24 PM
Wow... that really cleared things up! Thanks!

SnipySev
04-01-2013, 07:40 PM
I have to stress that this timeline isn't necessarily 100% accurate. Infinite is one of those stories that provide the pieces of the puzzle, but let you assemble them yourself. It's up to the player to connect the dots. And I think the creators will leave the details to the players' interpretation instead of ever revealing them. Still, I found this visual aid very helpful. It gives you a sense of who, when and where in the bigger picture.

A lot of people in the reddit thread have noted that Rosalind Lutece achieved more than Robert not because of the difference in gender, but because she received funding from Comstock. Altough they both discovered the same particle which allowed them to communicate through dimensions, only Rosalind had the money and the resources to build the portal machine.

But they also pointed out that Rosalind always seems the most daring and proactive of the two, while Robert is more cautious and pessimistic. It's made especially clear in the ending when Robert is very hesitant to step through a tear as Rosalind urges him on. Maybe this difference in attitude led Rosalind, and not Robert, to seek funding from a wealthy person. I don't know if that's related to their gender, since I'm unfamiliar with gender psychology.

ARD
04-02-2013, 08:19 PM
I beat the game today, and I thought the ending was pretty interesting, to say the least :p

I guessed that Comstock was some kind of "future" version of Booker when he said "I'm not that man, but Dewitt is!" or words to that effect. But I had no idea that story would go so far beyond that. I guess the title of the game suggests something a bit more complex is going on ;)

One thing I was going to ask was, does the choice of necklace have any impact on the events of the story? But after reading this...

the necklace she and the others are wearing isn't the one you chose for her!
...I assume its only purpose is to show that "your" Elizabeth is not part of the drowning gang. And I didn't even notice -.-

Actually, does the choice of lighthouses at the end of the game make a difference? There were a couple of instances where you could choose between different bridges. They probably all lead to the same places but with this game, who knows :cry:

RockSauron
04-02-2013, 08:22 PM
No, the choice of lighthouses didn't make any difference.

In fact, none of the choices (who you throw the ball at, if you stop the ticket guy or let him stab you) make any difference. I think it's supposed to be about the illusion of free will or something.

ARD
04-02-2013, 08:30 PM
Right - it's happening, it has happened, it will happen etc

EDIT: On the subject of no choices and no free will and all that, the post-credits sequence shows that, in at least one universe, Booker is still alive, and still has Anna. At first I thought this was supposed to be a kind of happy ending, even though "our" Booker is dead, there could still be a world where Booker survives but Comstock never shows up. But after thinking about it, surely if it's possible for there to be one world where Booker survives, there must be a "million million" worlds where he survives, following the logic of the game. This must mean that in some of these worlds, he still becomes Comstock. Even though he died, he did live, and so he is living, and he will live. It is in infinite loop that can never really be broken.

...right?

Or am I thinking about this too much :cry:

ForgottenEnigma
04-03-2013, 02:11 AM
No, the choice of lighthouses didn't make any difference.

In fact, none of the choices (who you throw the ball at, if you stop the ticket guy or let him stab you) make any difference. I think it's supposed to be about the illusion of free will or something.

Well technically all the choices did... you just don't see the other result as in theory another universe would be created that you simply couldn't see but might play out differently... so your right in that they do not effect the game or its ending... but in the story they are important to think about and provide a nice sense of depth.


This must mean that in some of these worlds, he still becomes Comstock. Even though he died, he did live, and so he is living, and he will live. It is in infinite loop that can never really be broken.

...right?

Or am I thinking about this too much :cry:

Well... there could be a universe that when Elizabeth says "are you sure you want to do this?" when deciding to kill Comstock Booker would simply go; "nah, let's go to Paris" (any of the other Bookers walking along the other piers for example) and then their could be a million universes where Comstock had survived. We, and our characters, just didn't see it happen.

However, the Lutece twins suggest in their coin experiment that some things will always remain constant in every universe and the decision to stop Comstock from existing might always happen (when it can happen; E.g. Booker not dying for the Vox) as it is one of these Constants.

SnipySev
04-03-2013, 12:28 PM
RThis must mean that in some of these worlds, he still becomes Comstock. Even though he died, he did live, and so he is living, and he will live. It is in infinite loop that can never really be broken.

...right?

Or am I thinking about this too much :cry:

No, I don't think so. The baptism took place right after the battle of Wounded Knee and before Booker became a father. So it's a dimension where Booker didn't become Comstock.

I've read somewhere that according to the calendar in Booker's office, the post-credits scene takes place one day after "our" Booker sold Anna. If Anna is really there, Comstock didn't come for her. Which means the branch of dimensions where Booker becomes Comstock has been erradicated.

Elizabeth will still exist but without her powers, with a different name and quite possibly a different personality. And Booker might not be the best father ever but at least he won't be a crazy fanatic trying to use his daughter to destroy the world. And who knows, maybe he'll take her to Paris. I have a feeling that her desire to visit Paris is a constant across all dimensions.

Edit: I'm in my second playthrough and I've seen so much foreshadowing. So, so much. Especially the hot dog vendor who "mistakes" Elizabeth for your daughter, and when Booker says he should enter the prophet business inside the bank.

ARD
04-03-2013, 06:46 PM
On Elizabeth's desire to go to Paris...she opened a tear on the Eiffel Tower painting that led to Paris. If there wasn't a car coming straight for her, what was stopping her from just stepping through that tear and into Paris? Why couldn't she open another tear in the same place? Actually, she probably did, many times. It seems pretty unlikely that, in all the years she spent in the tower with this ability, the only time she ever opened a tear to the place she really wanted to visit was the one time Booker was watching. So why couldn't she just walk through a tear to Paris?

Also, Comstock carried Anna through to his world from Booker's. He saw the tear close on her finger, and he mentions it just before Booker eventually kills him. So he must have known where Elizabeth's powers came from? Why not use the Luteces' machine to open a tear and sacrifice a finger himself, or some other body part, to gain the same powers? You'd think that becoming pretty much omnipotent would solve his problems, he wouldn't need Elizabeth any more.

This is really all just "thinking out loud", but if anyone has any explanations or ideas that would be great :p

RockSauron
04-03-2013, 06:50 PM
On Elizabeth's desire to go to Paris...she opened a tear on the Eiffel Tower painting that led to Paris. If there wasn't a car coming straight for her, what was stopping her from just stepping through that tear and into Paris? Why couldn't she open another tear in the same place? Actually, she probably did, many times. It seems pretty unlikely that, in all the years she spent in the tower with this ability, the only time she ever opened a tear to the place she really wanted to visit was the one time Booker was watching. So why couldn't she just walk through a tear to Paris?

Also, Comstock carried Anna through to his world from Booker's. He saw the tear close on her finger, and he mentions it just before Booker eventually kills him. So he must have known where Elizabeth's powers came from? Why not use the Luteces' machine to open a tear and sacrifice a finger himself, or some other body part, to gain the same powers? You'd think that becoming pretty much omnipotent would solve his problems, he wouldn't need Elizabeth any more.

This is really all just "thinking out loud", but if anyone has any explanations or ideas that would be great :p

On the first point: I THINK the Siphon was restricting her powers, and she couldn't fully control them to the point of waltzing through dimensions freely. Maybe she COULDN'T go through because the siphon took away that ability of hers?

On the second point: The reason Comstock needed Anna was because he saw, through a tear, that Elizabeth would be the one to smith the mountains of man (looking through tears was the source of his prophecies). He didn't want to gain the power because he felt that God had preordained his daughter to be the one to guide the world into the new world. He didn't want to go against Providence, you know?

ARD
04-03-2013, 07:09 PM
On the first point: I THINK the Siphon was restricting her powers, and she couldn't fully control them to the point of waltzing through dimensions freely. Maybe she COULDN'T go through because the siphon took away that ability of hers?

That was my first thought, but she had enough control to bring her and Booker into other dimensions later on. I was under the impression that the siphon was still affecting her, which the tower needed to be destroyed. Maybe the restriction varies with distance? I don't know. I should probably play through the game again a few times now that I've seen the ending :p


On the second point: The reason Comstock needed Anna was because he saw, through a tear, that Elizabeth would be the one to smith the mountains of man (looking through tears was the source of his prophecies). He didn't want to gain the power because he felt that God had preordained his daughter to be the one to guide the world into the new world. He didn't want to go against Providence, you know?

Yeah, that makes sense. I forget that Comstock is a genuinely religious man and not just a fraudulent control freak ;) It was quite strange when the preacher mentioned Jesus before the Wounded Knee baptism, since it seemed that Comstock had created his own religion separate from Christianity.

ForgottenEnigma
04-03-2013, 07:26 PM
Also, Comstock carried Anna through to his world from Booker's. He saw the tear close on her finger, and he mentions it just before Booker eventually kills him. So he must have known where Elizabeth's powers came from? Why not use the Luteces' machine to open a tear and sacrifice a finger himself, or some other body part, to gain the same powers?

It's more likely that he didn't know where her powers came from at all and that he was simply referencing the finger in an attempt to turn Elizabeth away from Booker as she would then doubt that Booker was being honest with her.

Now, you might say that he did know the origin of her powers due to the diary entry by Lutece in the tower... but given the nature of the twins jumping around through dimensions (and the fact that Comstock had them killed so they owe him no loyalty) they could have left that recording there a couple of minutes before you show up to help solely you... as there is no other evidence in the game of how Liz gets her power, it makes more sense that Comstock simply doesn't know.


As for why Liz doesn't simply jump to Paris, maybe she is simply scared? or perhaps the siphon being directly below her only allows for the creation of unstable windows rather than doors and when she gets further away her power grows?


One thing for sure... these theories about the plot are much better, and more fun, than a set in stone storyline XD

SnipySev
04-03-2013, 11:05 PM
It doesn't look like Elizabeth goes from one dimension to another by opening a tear and entering it, but by expanding that tear until it engulfs everything around. So maybe that's why she didn't just hop through her portal into Paris.

Another interesting little fact: the priest who baptizes Booker when he enters Columbia is the same who tries to baptize him in the creek after Wounded Knee. Apparently he didn't recognize Booker because he became blind.

Ali_Star
06-12-2013, 08:11 PM
That's it! From now on I'm sticking to identikit COD-like mind-numbing FPS games that don't explode your brain at the end of the game!

EDIT:

Regarding the moment where the guy mistakingly calls Elizabeth "Anna", now at the time I did find it odd and I actually thought "oh, I bet Elizabeth is Anna".... but then I kinda forgot about it. Why did he call her that though??

Another point - I'm guessing Comstock knew he was De Witt and didn't just forget? :confused:

ForgottenEnigma
06-12-2013, 08:45 PM
(A.) Regarding the moment where the guy mistakingly calls Elizabeth "Anna", now at the time I did find it odd and I actually thought "oh, I bet Elizabeth is Anna".... but then I kinda forgot about it. Why did he call her that though??

(B.) Another point - I'm guessing Comstock knew he was De Witt and didn't just forget? :confused:

A. Wasn't that a she? Esther? Just before the Soldiers field ambush, or are you thinking of someone else.

B. I'm sure Comstock knew, how wouldn't he? The part where he talks to you just before monument island supports this

Out of interest... what exactly made you explode your brain, I've seen a lot of people post this but I didn't have problems so I'm curious and could potentially shed some light... or fall into confusion myself =p

ARD
06-12-2013, 10:14 PM
Seeing this thread reappear really makes me want to play Infinite again. I was planning to get the first 2 games as well once exams are over, I'd forgotten that :P

Ali_Star
06-12-2013, 10:59 PM
A. Wasn't that a she? Esther? Just before the Soldiers field ambush, or are you thinking of someone else.

B. I'm sure Comstock knew, how wouldn't he? The part where he talks to you just before monument island supports this

Out of interest... what exactly made you explode your brain, I've seen a lot of people post this but I didn't have problems so I'm curious and could potentially shed some light... or fall into confusion myself =p

A) Yeah it could be a she, I can't remember.... still not sure why she would get her name wrong (or rather right). At the time, I thought Anna (De Witt kept mentioning her name) might have been a wife/partner that he'd lost.

Just wrapping my head around the whole timeline is what mainly confused me (the timeline posted last page did help somewhat). I mean, when De Witt is baptised, how the heck does he then go on to create a city in the sky? I mean, he's just a private investigator! Also, if we're going of the timeline on the previous page there is 22 years between baptism and the game starting. De Witt is (estimating) about 45 at this point. I don't know about you, but Comstock seemed a lot older than 67... or am I looking into that a bit too much?

RockSauron
06-12-2013, 11:15 PM
A) Yeah it could be a she, I can't remember.... still not sure why she would get her name wrong (or rather right). At the time, I thought Anna (De Witt kept mentioning her name) might have been a wife/partner that he'd lost.

Just wrapping my head around the whole timeline is what mainly confused me (the timeline posted last page did help somewhat). I mean, when De Witt is baptised, how the heck does he then go on to create a city in the sky? I mean, he's just a private investigator! Also, if we're going of the timeline on the previous page there is 22 years between baptism and the game starting. De Witt is (estimating) about 45 at this point. I don't know about you, but Comstock seemed a lot older than 67... or am I looking into that a bit too much?

Comstock was so old because he was subjected to a LOT of the parallel dimensions.

He was able to build a city in the sky because he had enough money to fund the Leutece's research. How he got that money, well, maybe he started a successful megachurch. Or maybe he used to be super rich before gambling it all away (in another timeline).

Burnvictim42
06-12-2013, 11:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TRd8o2_dA_I
This is the best explanation video i've seen thusfar. Crazy storyline, and very fun game in general. Replaying it in 1999 mode, it's been interesting looking at the game after knowing the ending.

SnipySev
06-12-2013, 11:56 PM
A) Yeah it could be a she, I can't remember.... still not sure why she would get her name wrong (or rather right). At the time, I thought Anna (De Witt kept mentioning her name) might have been a wife/partner that he'd lost.

They were agents Comstock tasked with killing Booker and securing Elizabeth.

The woman pretended to recognize her by mistake to get Liz to reveal her real name. Once they knew who their targets were, the ambush was ready.

If you pay close attention, that whole sequence is very suspicious. The woman follows you into the main hall, then stops, faces the opposite direction and pretends be touching up her make-up. She's actually spying on you through the mirror of her compact.

The guy pretending to buy a sauerkraut at the vendor seems really unsure about what he's buying ("Er... sauerkraut... I guess?"). There's something iffy about the musicians as well, but I don't remember exactly what it is. I think they stop playing as soon as you reach the ticket booth, and proceed to take out the guns they were hiding in their violin cases.

There's a small room nearby where they obviously prepared the ambush. There you can find a voxophone from the woman talking about how their lives were forfeit if they failed the mission, and a picture of Elizbeth on the table.

There's a crapton of these clever details everywhere which start making much more sense on a second playthrough. The first time you play BI you're surprised by the big twists; the second time, by the minute details.

Ali_Star
06-13-2013, 10:19 AM
Thanks for the explanations, chaps! Definitely warrants a second playthrough. I'm surprised at how many audio logs I missed, since I'm pretty sure I explored every nook and cranny!

One more point - how awesome was the brief return to Rapture? :love:
Actually sent a little shiver down my spine.

EDIT: Regarding the modern music being played everywhere in the game, how are the musicians aware of these songs?

EDIT AGAIN: Ok, I've just watched that vid on the previous page. Pretty interesting. One thing that still is a bit unclear is who sent Booker the note not to pick no. 77 (or whatever it was)? Are we to assume it was the Lutece's?

ForgottenEnigma
06-13-2013, 01:17 PM
EDIT: Regarding the modern music being played everywhere in the game, how are the musicians aware of these songs?



Alfred Fink plagiarised the music he saw through tears. You'll notice it plays an old timey version of "Girls just want to have fun" at battleship bay and there is a tear in his house later in the game playing the modern equivalent.

SnipySev
06-13-2013, 01:54 PM
And yeah, the Luteces sent him the telegraph hoping he wouldn't pick up the winning ball, because they knew what would happen if he did.

I don't know if you've noticed this already: do you remember your first encounter with the twins in Columbia? Robert carries a chalkboard where there are 122 tallies on heads and none on tails. This is a constant. As Liz said during the ending, it's one of the things that remains true in all realities. Booker's flip will always result in tails.

The implication of this scene would be pretty discouraging if Booker knew what the hell was going on. It means the twins visited 122 parallel universes before this one to help 122 Bookers in their quest, only to see each and every one of them fail... until now.

Ali_Star
06-13-2013, 03:20 PM
And yeah, the Luteces sent him the telegraph hoping he wouldn't pick up the winning ball, because they knew what would happen if he did.

I don't know if you've noticed this already: do you remember your first encounter with the twins in Columbia? Robert carries a chalkboard where there are 122 tallies on heads and none on tails. This is a constant. As Liz said during the ending, it's one of the things that remains true in all realities. Booker's flip will always result in tails.

The implication of this scene would be pretty discouraging if Booker knew what the hell was going on. It means the twins visited 122 parallel universes before this one to help 122 Bookers in their quest, only to see each and every one of them fail... until now.

I know! You'd think they would have given up after the 96th failed attempt!

Burnvictim42
06-13-2013, 04:09 PM
Well when you're scattered into the space between realities, you have all the time in the world. Rosalind may not have believed in the exercise (not the rowing, that's wonderful exercise), but she did want to stay with her "brother," and so she resigned herself to it.

The coin flip sets up the baseline for their experiment. Every Booker in those 122 universes flipped tails, it was a constant. However, the "meaningless" choices later on in the storyline reflect the diversities that make each universe unique, as the whole experiment spirals out of their control.