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megaextremist
09-07-2013, 07:08 PM
Commenting on many people's profiles lately, I've noticed that quite a few people only have one heart on their "20 jumps" levels. Bascially, any level they made themselves that isn't up there in lots of plays. Usually, they heart that level themselves. However, quite a few popular creators also heart their own levels. Do you think this is a bad thing or a good thing? I see it as you enjoyed what you created, so you hearted that. Hearting your level to get one heart is kinda silly because everyone knows who hearted it.

qwerty123456
09-07-2013, 10:05 PM
I agree in full with your statement, and I actually feel that MM should remove this, as it can be used to get a "1-Up" on a lot of pins, for lack of better term.

Shooter0898
09-07-2013, 11:23 PM
Heating your own level well I see no point. It's like uploading a picture on Facebook and liking it. People know you like/hearted it but does that one heart really have that much of an effect? Some would say yes and others no and there's argument for both.

I think one heart won't make too much of a difference to a certain point. Does having 100 hearts have more of a difference than 99 hearts. Well maybe that has a sort of small Impact. Then lets say we get larger. 30001 hearts compared to 30000 hearts. They are both already recognised in their own right. Yet is everything I just said true is it just pointless or does it acctually affect anything in any way? That's for yourself to decide.

TheUltraDeino
09-08-2013, 12:48 AM
Everytime I upload a level, someone with the psn "ultralucario64" always hearts it. I think this guy might be my biggest fan, but I don't make good levels. I know I'm posting this in the wrong thread, but it's getting weird.

On a side note, I don't really heart my own levels

Alex-Raven
09-08-2013, 11:05 AM
Seriously, how can hearting your own level possibly be a bad thing?

jwwphotos
09-08-2013, 12:39 PM
I didn't think you could in LBP2 anymore.. or maybe that is just via LBP.me.

Ayneh
09-08-2013, 05:32 PM
Hearting your level to get one heart is kinda silly because everyone knows who hearted it.
It's dumb for sure but it's only 1 heart. I've seen people with alt/sockpuppet accounts spamming themselves with hearts.


Seriously, how can hearting your own level possibly be a bad thing?
Well, it's conceited. It's more of an issue when the same attitude infests a level you're playing.

Uncharted Avenger
09-08-2013, 07:34 PM
I heart my own levels. But, it's not because I want to get ahead of anything or anyone else. It's because I love LBP and I love making things inside of the game. But, now that I know it actually irritates people, I guess I won't do it anymore. :meh:

IcyFlamez_
09-08-2013, 09:31 PM
I love my levels so i'm going to heart them.

Ali_Star
09-09-2013, 12:08 PM
I don't heart my own levels, but in a sense it's just like patting yourself on the back saying "job well done".


Everytime I upload a level, someone with the psn "ultralucario64" always hearts it. I think this guy might be my biggest fan, but I don't make good levels. I know I'm posting this in the wrong thread, but it's getting weird.

On a side note, I don't really heart my own levels

You could call him an "anti-troll". Does he even play your levels or just heart them?

megaextremist
09-16-2013, 10:30 PM
I agree in full with your statement, and I actually feel that MM should remove this, as it can be used to get a "1-Up" on a lot of pins, for lack of better term.

thats a really good point and probably the gist of what I'm getting at :P

KlawwTheClown
09-18-2013, 12:54 AM
Seriously? It's one level heart. I didn't know there was anyone who didn't heart their own levels. If you don't like your own levels, why publish them? They're clearly not finished then.

I fail to see how it's at all conceited to create the kinds of levels you like to play, and try to give them that small starting nudge to help them in to the play stream.

It is a single heart. If you ask your friends to play your level, chances are, you'll get plenty more.

In the very early stages of a level having been published, every heart helps you to get noticed, so if "getting your level noticed" is such a big problem in LBP, why wouldn't you heart your own level?

grayspence
09-18-2013, 01:01 AM
Seriously? It's one level heart. I didn't know there was anyone who didn't heart their own levels. If you don't like your own levels, why publish them? They're clearly not finished then.

I fail to see how it's at all conceited to create the kinds of levels you like to play, and try to give them that small starting nudge to help them in to the play stream.

It is a single heart. If you ask your friends to play your level, chances are, you'll get plenty more.

In the very early stages of a level having been published, every heart helps you to get noticed, so if "getting your level noticed" is such a big problem in LBP, why wouldn't you heart your own level?

I agree wholeheartedly, and I have been doing it since I started creating and publishing. I can't see why it would be conceited to heart your own creations, I mean, making multiple accounts and hearting the level with them is a different story, but the author should have every right to express his or her satisfaction with the work they publish.

Oh, and it's ONE heart.

Alex-Raven
09-18-2013, 09:26 AM
Well, it's conceited.

Sorry, but that's just a silly thing to say... Every social medium I've ever been on that has ratings allows users to rate themselves (youtube, facebook, reddit etc.)


It's more of an issue when the same attitude infests a level you're playing.

That... that doesn't make any sense (I'm not being rude, I honestly don't understand what you mean)

Ayneh
09-20-2013, 08:51 PM
Seriously? It's one level heart. I didn't know there was anyone who didn't heart their own levels. If you don't like your own levels, why publish them? They're clearly not finished then.

I fail to see how it's at all conceited to create the kinds of levels you like to play, and try to give them that small starting nudge to help them in to the play stream.

It is a single heart. If you ask your friends to play your level, chances are, you'll get plenty more.

In the very early stages of a level having been published, every heart helps you to get noticed, so if "getting your level noticed" is such a big problem in LBP, why wouldn't you heart your own level?

I agree wholeheartedly, and I have been doing it since I started creating and publishing. I can't see why it would be conceited to heart your own creations, I mean, making multiple accounts and hearting the level with them is a different story, but the author should have every right to express his or her satisfaction with the work they publish.

Oh, and it's ONE heart.
For sure, it's only 1 heart.

When I see you've hearted yourself and don't play your level you've lost 1-4 hearts immediately. Now there's no chance of us passing it on to other people, inside or outside the game, so you may lose more hearts than even that.

That's just the statistical consequence, which is only half the story.


That... that doesn't make any sense (I'm not being rude, I honestly don't understand what you mean)
Sorry if that wasn't clear. The point was it's more of a problem when the same narcissistic or insecure attitude that drives people to heart themselves is present in their levels. There are so many levels with reams of self-indulgent speech bubbles it's not even funny.

KlawwTheClown
09-21-2013, 05:38 AM
For sure, it's only 1 heart.

When I see you've hearted yourself and don't play your level you've lost 1-4 hearts immediately. Now there's no chance of us passing it on to other people, inside or outside the game, so you may lose more hearts than even that.

That's just the statistical consequence, which is only half the story.


That argument goes both ways. Ever since LBP1 first came out, hearting your levels after they're published has become almost like a routine for me. Every tutorial at the time recommended it, so naturally I assumed everybody did it. I never even thought anything of it until this thread came up, and ever since I can remember, I would never bother playing levels with 0 hearts because I assume that the creator of the level either didn't even like it or they just didn't care enough about it to acknowledge it.

There's no penalty for hearting your own level, and the option is there for everyone. If it only helps you, then why not do it? After spending hundreds of hours creating something, wouldn't you want to do everything in your power to prevent it from flopping?

At the end of the day, it's a useless number that sits on your profile, infinitely lesser than the number of hearts on the latest "CuTE Boy COSTUMES O.o" masterpiece.

Not playing someone's level just because they're proud of it and want it to get a bit of attention seems a bit mean, too. When all the top rated levels are copied anyway, why would you just ignore one that a creator put loads of work into, just because they wanted to give it a chance?

Alex-Raven
09-21-2013, 05:49 PM
...narcissistic or insecure attitude that drives people to heart themselves...

(ಠ_ಠ) I'm sorry , come again?

Lord-Dreamerz
09-21-2013, 06:16 PM
There's no penalty for hearting your own level, and the option is there for everyone. If it only helps you, then why not do it? After spending hundreds of hours creating something, wouldn't you want to do everything in your power to prevent it from flopping?


Your opinion on the matter is funny. *mew

But yeah. My opinion is that hearting your own level reeks of narcissism or pathetic desperation to get yourself attention. Since obviously you don't need to heart your own level to help yourself find it. If I ever saw somebody heart their own level, In my mind I'd think 1 of 2 things right off the bat. #1 it must mean the dude has no self-confidence that anyone will play their level. Or #2 the dude is really that self-centered. Regardless of what the case really was, At that point I wouldn't touch that person's level with a 10 foot pole.

But honestly it doesn't really matter to me if a person hearts their own level. But I will say it's pointless and that the option should be removed from the game. *mew

Kalawishis
09-21-2013, 06:40 PM
If you're going to heart your own level, then you might as well create a crap-ton of sub-accounts to do so too. If you like your level enough to heart it then if you really like it then why can't you heart it again and again?

To say it's okay to heart your own level is really, by extension, to say that you can create sub-accounts to heart your level too. If you really like your level why should you deny yourself that joy.

Of course, I don't heart my own levels. I find it rather silly and amusing. I often see many levels with 0 plays, 0 yays, and 1 heart, and think, "Oh, how cute." I do have a sub-account though, and I have hearted all my levels on it. Food for thought.

Lbphart3
09-21-2013, 08:44 PM
I was tolled hearting your level helps you promote it,Iv been hearting my own level since lbp 1.

I think its fine hearting your own level.

I find it silly and amusing when people judge others for hearting there own levels!!!!!:devious:

Those who worry about what I do to my levels are self absorbed.


Meaning of self-absorbed

preoccupied with one's own thoughts, emotions, life, etc.

preoccupied with one's thoughts, interests, etc.

Kalawishis
09-21-2013, 09:52 PM
Those who worry about what I do to my levels are self absorbed.


Meaning of self-absorbed

preoccupied with one's own thoughts, emotions, life, etc.

preoccupied with one's thoughts, interests, etc.

Huh. I think self absorbed people wouldn't even pay attention to other people's levels.


I find it silly and amusing when people judge others for hearting there own levels!!!!!
:devious:

If you're so amused then why don't you use a smiley face instead?

idgowans
09-21-2013, 10:06 PM
Honestly, in my opinion, it's not much of a big deal. I heart levels to make them easier to find & replay, so I find it sort of pointless to heart your own levels. I can see why people would do it, whether it's to give it a kick-start to their level or just to show how proud they are of what they've accomplished, and I can see why people can think of it as being quite arrogant. When I see someone has hearted their own level I don't hate them, but it does sort of lower my expectations of what they may be like as a person. These expectations have been very wrong though; a lot of my friends heart their own levels but are very kind and generous. It's just people do tend to judge books by their covers, so outwardly expressing pride in your own level can lead to some bad first impressions of you.

Overall though, I think it's not worth getting your knickers in a twist about. It's not hurting anyone, it's not offending anyone, and it's certainly not something big enough to judge someone about. If you heart your own levels, good for you! Everyone has to express some pride in what they make one way or another. :) If you don't heart your levels, that's great too, showing modesty is never a bad thing. :D If you're strongly against those who heart their own levels, I strongly suggest you put your motivation towards an issue that actually needs tackling. ;)

KlawwTheClown
09-21-2013, 10:07 PM
#1 it must mean the dude has no self-confidence that anyone will play their level. Or #2 the dude is really that self-centered. Regardless of what the case really was, At that point I wouldn't touch that person's level with a 10 foot pole.

Uhh.. Yeah. Almost anybody you speak to will complain about how difficult it is to get plays. There are tons of good levels out there that get outright ignored. Look at Holguin's new level. It's unique, plays really well, looks great and he's even a well-known creator to boot. It only got 300 plays in a whole week.

I just don't understand how if getting plays is such a hard thing to do, why is it so hard to give your precious little creation that little starting push that it needs? It's much less intrusive than "shamelessly" spamming unrelated comments pages or even sending your friends a group message to ask them to check it out (which I don't mind in the slightest, but it's still worse), and after the first 10 plays or so it becomes completely useless anyway.

I don't see how it's wrong to take pride in something that you spend so much of your time making.


If you're going to heart your own level, then you might as well create a crap-ton of sub-accounts to do so too. If you like your level enough to heart it then if you really like it then why can't you heart it again and again?

To say it's okay to heart your own level is really, by extension, to say that you can create sub-accounts to heart your level too. If you really like your level why should you deny yourself that joy.

Of course, I don't heart my own levels. I find it rather silly and amusing. I often see many levels with 0 plays, 0 yays, and 1 heart, and think, "Oh, how cute." I do have a sub-account though, and I have hearted all my levels on it. Food for thought.

This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. There's a difference between being proud of something and just downright cheating your way to the top.

That's like saying that just because Spaff goes out and buys himself a copy of Tearaway, Mm may as well buy up as many copies as possible to make it a best seller. There's literally no difference, is there?

I like my own levels. I make levels specifically for myself to enjoy, in hopes that there are other people who will like them too. I fail to see how this instantly turns me in to a heart-boosting narcissist.

Fishrock123
09-21-2013, 10:21 PM
Back in the day when it actually mattered, no-one that I know of turned a head if you hearted your own level. (I was around to see (in creative mode btw) several big-name creators make and publish stuff, and I'm pretty sure that most people did this. And guess what? It didn't matter.)


And yeah, now'days LBP really doesn't matter like it used to, incase you are still wondering.


(And heck, if you want to know, I've done this for every single level that I remember publishing that I cared about. No shame.)

dolphins-r-lame
09-21-2013, 10:25 PM
I heart my own levels because im awesome.

Nuclearfish
09-21-2013, 10:33 PM
I never hearted my own levels. I assumed it would be pretty obvious I liked it anyway, otherwise why would I have published it? Also because I so rarely hearted anything anyway and didn't want my hearted list to be just my own levels. I was always a bit confused why some of the big-name creators did it back in the day when their level was going to get thousands of hearts anyway, but never thought any less of anyone who does it. Because everyone does it, right? What does it matter?

Fishrock123
09-21-2013, 10:42 PM
Also because I so rarely hearted anything anyway and didn't want my hearted list to be just my own levels.

This is probably the most valid point anyone's said so far. *hat tip*

TheMonkeyBlade
09-21-2013, 10:42 PM
It's really a big deal that people heart their own levels? I hearted my level, because why not? I spent a lot of time making it, and I was happy with the end result, so I hearted it. I didn't know that made me self-centered.

Not playing someone's level, or rating it with the reason being that the creator hearted it just seems flat-out rude and idiotic. If they hearted it, they're proud of it. Hell, I've actually not played people's levels because they didn't heart them. If they don't heart their own level, I assume they don't give a crap about it, so why should I?

Calling someone a narcisist because they heart their own levels is just stupid. Honestly, if you're a narcisist for hearting your own level, what are you for posting your level in a showcase thread? A showcase thread has a bigger impact on your level than just hearting it will ever have.

Sackpapoi
09-21-2013, 10:50 PM
It's not a pressing matter. I've hearted one or two of my own levels, and the only motivation behind it was that I felt like it, really. It's not something you can directly abuse, you can only do it once per level. There's nothing wrong with liking your own creation, if anything, you deserve a pat on the back. The only problem I could see this causing is clogging up the hearted list with levels you can just access via your Earth, but that's barely even a problem at all either.

It's just a matter of opinion, I think. Some people feel like it's pointless, or that they're not being modest, and that's totally fine. Others feel they could use the extra push or just like their stuff, and that's cool too. When they're complimented, some people say "It's nothing," and other say "Thanks." It's nothing to judge people over or get upset with people about. :p

Also, wow, I must be a slow writer, because like five people have commented since I started.

Kalawishis
09-21-2013, 10:52 PM
This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. There's a difference between being proud of something and just downright cheating your way to the top.

That's like saying that just because Spaff goes out and buys himself a copy of Tearaway, Mm may as well buy up as many copies as possible to make it a best seller. There's literally no difference, is there?

I like my own levels. I make levels specifically for myself to enjoy, in hopes that there are other people who will like them too. I fail to see how this instantly turns me in to a heart-boosting narcissist.

Not hardly.

Think about it. You either heart your own levels because you like it, or because you want it to have an edge over some other levels. Now, for the former, if you feel it's okay to heart your own level because you like it, then if you really like it then by all means heart it with all your accounts.

Oh, and to use some of your logic against you:


There's no penalty for hearting your own level, and the option is there for everyone. If it only helps you, then why not do it? After spending hundreds of hours creating something, wouldn't you want to do everything in your power to prevent it from flopping?

At the end of the day, it's a useless number that sits on your profile, infinitely lesser than the number of hearts on the latest "CuTE Boy COSTUMES O.o" masterpiece.


By that logic, there's really no penalty for hearting it with all your sub-accounts.

Yes, it'll skew the system, and gives you an unfair edge over the people who didn't heart as many times as you. But really, hearting your own level gives you an unfair advantage over all the people who don't heart their own levels at all!

They're either both okay or neither of them are okay. Personally, I think neither of them are okay. Now, in a few years I'll just unheart SackDroid...

TheMonkeyBlade
09-21-2013, 10:57 PM
But really, hearting your own level gives you an unfair advantage over all the people who don't heart their own levels at all!

No, because they could just heart their own levels too, and get that one extra heart that you guys think is such a big deal.

And also, no, hearting your levels with all of your sub-accounts is cheating. It's not part of the game. To heart your own level, you press a button, to heart it with all of your sub-accounts it means you're going out of your way to give the level un-deserved hearts.

Kalawishis
09-21-2013, 11:00 PM
No, because they could just heart their own levels too, and get that one extra heart that you guys think is such a big deal.


Well then why can't they just make sub-accounts to heart their own levels too? Yeah, it's work, but still. It seems that when go the easy route, it's not sad, but when you go the hard route, you're suddenly desperate.

Nuclearfish
09-21-2013, 11:03 PM
But really, hearting your own level gives you an unfair advantage over all the people who don't heart their own levels at all!

It's not unfair because everyone is given the opportunity to do it. If you choose not to and feel it's unfair, that's your fault.


It seems that when go the easy route, it's not sad, but when you go the hard route, you're suddenly desperate.

Yes. That's exactly how it is. Glad you've caught on. :)

TheMonkeyBlade
09-21-2013, 11:03 PM
Well then why can't they just make sub-accounts to heart their own levels too? Yeah, it's work, but still. It seems that when go the easy route, it's not sad, but when you go the hard route, you're suddenly desperate.

Because not everyone wants to cheat for hearts.

Kalawishis
09-21-2013, 11:05 PM
It's not unfair because everyone is given the opportunity to do it. If you choose not to and feel it's unfair, that's your fault.



Because not everyone wants to cheat for hearts.


Fish, you do realize that everybody can go make sub-accounts for themselves, right? Apparently since it's tedious, it's cheating. But how is it cheating? Everything you're doing is perfectly legal.

TheMonkeyBlade
09-21-2013, 11:08 PM
Fish, you do realize that everybody can go make sub-accounts for themselves, right? Apparently since it's tedious, it's cheating. But how is it cheating? Everything you're doing is perfectly legal.

You even agreed that you won't exploit the rating system when you accepted the EULA. Hearting your own level once obviously doesn't go against anything, since it's a feature in the game.

Nuclearfish
09-21-2013, 11:08 PM
But how is it cheating? Everything you're doing is perfectly legal.

Who said cheating had to be illegal?

Kalawishis
09-21-2013, 11:15 PM
You even agreed that you won't exploit the rating system when you accepted the EULA. Hearting your own level once obviously doesn't go against anything, since it's a feature in the game.


How do you know that hearting your own levels doesn't constitute exploiting the ratings system? Just because the game programming allows for it doesn't mean it's automatically right. The game lets you H4H, after all.


Who said cheating had to be illegal?


I phrased that wrong. What I meant to ask was how hearting your own level wasn't cheating and having sub-accounts heart your level was.

TheMonkeyBlade
09-21-2013, 11:18 PM
How do you know that hearting your own levels doesn't constitute exploiting the ratings system? Just because the game programming allows for it doesn't mean it's automatically right. The game lets you H4H, after all.


There's a BUTTON to heart your own levels. The game doesn't promote H4Hing, people just do it, and it's almost impossible to stop. It's not like there's a H4H button.

Kalawishis
09-21-2013, 11:23 PM
There's a BUTTON to heart your own levels. The game doesn't promote H4Hing, people just do it, and it's almost impossible to stop. It's not like there's a H4H button.


Well the game doesn't promote hearting your own level either.

And to further my other point, hearting your own level does put you at an unfair advantage over people who didn't. Yeah, they can always heart their own levels to be on equal footing, but how do you know they'll want to do that? How do you know they won't be uncomfortable with hearting their own levels in the same way you guys are uncomfortable with making sub-accounts to heart it? You've seen the people on this thread, many of whom think (rightfully so), that it is rather conceited.

Nuclearfish
09-21-2013, 11:25 PM
I phrased that wrong. What I meant to ask was how hearting your own level wasn't cheating and having sub-accounts heart your level was.

Because:

1. Hearts are intended to track how many people choose to heart your level.
2. You, the creator of your level, are one person, therefore can heart your level.
3. Your sub accounts are not different people, therefore should not heart your level if you've already done so.

:)

TheMonkeyBlade
09-21-2013, 11:44 PM
Well the game doesn't promote hearting your own level either.

And to further my other point, hearting your own level does put you at an unfair advantage over people who didn't. Yeah, they can always heart their own levels to be on equal footing, but how do you know they'll want to do that? How do you know they won't be uncomfortable with hearting their own levels in the same way you guys are uncomfortable with making sub-accounts to heart it? No they don't promote it, but there IS a huge button that says "heart."

Also, it's your fault for not hearting your own level, there's nothing stopping you whatsoever. If you make sub-accounts, you're going against the EULA, and cheating.

Don't call people narcisists for hearting their own level, when you think that making sub-accounts to get multiple hearts is fine.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 12:06 AM
No they don't promote it, but there IS a huge button that says "heart."

Also, it's your fault for not hearting your own level, there's nothing stopping you whatsoever. If you make sub-accounts, you're going against the EULA, and cheating.

Don't call people narcisists for hearting their own level, when you think that making sub-accounts to get multiple hearts is fine.

I'm not calling people narcissists for hearting their own level and saying sub-accounts for hearts are fine, I'm saying that they're either both wrong, or that they are both right, and I think they're both wrong.


Because:

1. Hearts are intended to track how many people choose to heart your level.
2. You, the creator of your level, are one person, therefore can heart your level.
3. Your sub accounts are not different people, therefore should not heart your level if you've already done so.


By that criteria H4H would be fine.

TheMonkeyBlade
09-22-2013, 12:15 AM
I'm not calling people narcissists for hearting their own level and saying sub-accounts for hearts are fine, I'm saying that they're either both wrong, or that they are both right, and I think they're both wrong.

Are you thinking about what you're saying? Boosting for hearts, and giving your level a little push are completely different things.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 12:35 AM
Are you thinking about what you're saying? Boosting for hearts, and giving your level a little push are completely different things.


Isn't hearting your own level technically "boosting for hearts"?

dragonboy269
09-22-2013, 12:39 AM
I don't see anything wrong with hearting your own level. You don't have the ability to heart yourself or review your own level (loving yourself or giving a review on your own level is pretty conceited), but if you truly have fun playing your own level, why not heart it too?

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 12:52 AM
I don't see anything wrong with hearting your own level. You don't have the ability to heart yourself or review your own level (loving yourself or giving a review on your own level is pretty conceited), but if you truly have fun playing your own level, why not heart it too?


Well, if you truly think your review is helpful, then why shouldn't you rate it up? With your logic that should be fine.

TheMonkeyBlade
09-22-2013, 12:58 AM
Isn't hearting your own level technically "boosting for hearts"?

No, it's not, since it's one person hearting it.

dragonboy269
09-22-2013, 01:19 AM
Well, if you truly think your review is helpful, then why shouldn't you rate it up? With your logic that should be fine.You don't have the ability to rate up your own review. Therefore the creators of LBP (media molecule) think hearting your own level is fine but rating up your own review or hearting yourself or reviewing your own level is not fine.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 02:24 AM
You don't have the ability to rate up your own review. Therefore the creators of LBP (media molecule) think hearting your own level is fine but rating up your own review or hearting yourself or reviewing your own level is not fine.


Again, just because the game lets it happen doesn't mean it's right.

KlawwTheClown
09-22-2013, 03:24 AM
Again, just because the game lets it happen doesn't mean it's right.
Hearting a level does absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. Mm's obviously thought about it, because you can't yay your own levels (well... I did once because of a glitch, but it was long dead at that point anyway and it isn't a normal occurence). From what I can tell, yaying a level boosts its position on the cool levels/lucky dip or whatever, and hearting is just there as a counter of people who really enjoy the level, and a shortcut so they can easily find it again.

I, being my own target audience, really enjoy my own levels. I spend an upwards of 8 months on each of them, work on them until they're as good as I can possibly make them, and then eventually publish them. Regardless of how short they are (the thermo hates me a lot), I heart them with my one and only LBP account, because I am one person.

I don't even see where the comparison of using multiple accounts even comes from. You could make multiple accounts and cheat for hearts, but when were we ever talking about that? Who would seriously go through all that trouble just for a few hearts? Assuming each account takes 5 minutes to make, you could get 12 hearts in an hour. Then people could obviously see that you just boosted because you have more hearts than plays/yays. Meaning that in order to truly boost for level ratings you'd need to enter, yay, and exit your level on each account. That would take another minute or 2 for each account, meaning that you'd get through even less hearts than before.

Each account you make would also require you to make a new email address too, and then each profile needs to complete Da Vinci's world so that they can play community levels or import a profile back up. So that would make it take even longer.

Then at this point, with all these "new LBP players" who have been playing nothing but your level and hearting it, I'd think it'd be pretty easy to report you for tampering with the rating system. I doubt anything would happen from it, but I also doubt anybody willing to stoop to anything that low will be making anything half decent enough to get any plays regularly after that.

Hearting your level literally does nothing besides make its ratings look ever so slightly better when it's still within its first 10 or so plays. That. Is. it.

I've already been called conceited and narcissistic, so at this point I don't even care if I come off as rude anymore. It's a useless number that serves no purpose but to maybe attract 1 or 2 people to your level. How does this immediately make me a selfish egomaniac again?

bonner123
09-22-2013, 03:37 AM
Who cares? It is a minor feature in a game that grows increasingly irrelevant every day. If people heart their own levels? Fine, it doesn't matter. If they don't? Fine, it doesn't matter. Why people argue over this is beyond me.

Lbphart3
09-22-2013, 11:13 AM
Huh. I think self absorbed people wouldn't even pay attention to other people's levels.



If you're so amused then why don't you use a smiley face instead?
why are you so worried about what face I use when im amused?:rolleyes:

Pokefan1103
09-22-2013, 01:30 PM
Well, thank god you can't heart your own level 100,000 times.

Tynz21
09-22-2013, 02:55 PM
For starters, what's the harm? It's not as if hearting your own level is going to help get that elusive "level hearted by 10,000" pin that still eludes me to date. And I don't know how many people realize this, but for creators like myself whose profiles get a good deal of traffic, the most recent level in your hearted list can gain a substantial number of plays, at least substantial when it's newly published. So this increases overall level traffic and the likelihood of it being successful by at least a small degree. Is it conceited to want your levels played? If so we're all equal with regards to that. Additionally, keep in mind the time put forth on some of these levels. Levels by many popular creators at least take weeks or months, sometimes longer when you're juggling your life. If you wasted 6 months of your life to put together a virtual level for a bunch of children to enjoy, is it so bad to favorite it yourself? I don't think so. And the amount of extra attention youd get for it is pretty much negligible. So... not a problem.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 03:50 PM
Hearting a level does absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. Mm's obviously thought about it, because you can't yay your own levels (well... I did once because of a glitch, but it was long dead at that point anyway and it isn't a normal occurence). From what I can tell, yaying a level boosts its position on the cool levels/lucky dip or whatever, and hearting is just there as a counter of people who really enjoy the level, and a shortcut so they can easily find it again.

If hearting your own level does nothing then why is having multiple sub-accounts heart your own level bad? If it doesn't affect any of the algorithms then why should it even matter?


I, being my own target audience, really enjoy my own levels. I spend an upwards of 8 months on each of them, work on them until they're as good as I can possibly make them, and then eventually publish them. Regardless of how short they are (the thermo hates me a lot), I heart them with my one and only LBP account, because I am one person.

So, if you really liked your own levels, you should be able to heart them using your sub-accounts, as it obviously doesn't cause harm, as I've said above.


I don't even see where the comparison of using multiple accounts even comes from. You could make multiple accounts and cheat for hearts, but when were we ever talking about that? Who would seriously go through all that trouble just for a few hearts? Assuming each account takes 5 minutes to make, you could get 12 hearts in an hour. Then people could obviously see that you just boosted because you have more hearts than plays/yays. Meaning that in order to truly boost for level ratings you'd need to enter, yay, and exit your level on each account. That would take another minute or 2 for each account, meaning that you'd get through even less hearts than before.

That's my point. You're fine with people hearting their own levels but are not fine with people hearting them with their sub-accounts. If it doesn't even matter as you say then there shouldn't be a difference between them.


Each account you make would also require you to make a new email address too, and then each profile needs to complete Da Vinci's world so that they can play community levels or import a profile back up. So that would make it take even longer.

A small price to pay if you love your level so much.


Then at this point, with all these "new LBP players" who have been playing nothing but your level and hearting it, I'd think it'd be pretty easy to report you for tampering with the rating system. I doubt anything would happen from it, but I also doubt anybody willing to stoop to anything that low will be making anything half decent enough to get any plays regularly after that.

Hearting your level literally does nothing besides make its ratings look ever so slightly better when it's still within its first 10 or so plays. That. Is. it.

I've already been called conceited and narcissistic, so at this point I don't even care if I come off as rude anymore. It's a useless number that serves no purpose but to maybe attract 1 or 2 people to your level. How does this immediately make me a selfish egomaniac again?

Your final point merely seals my argument. If it's a useless number that serves no purpose then there is no reason why hearting your level with all your sub-accounts. It doesn't affect anything, so why is it so bad?

grayspence
09-22-2013, 04:25 PM
If hearting your own level does nothing then why is having multiple sub-accounts heart your own level bad? If it doesn't affect any of the algorithms then why should it even matter?



So, if you really liked your own levels, you should be able to heart them using your sub-accounts, as it obviously doesn't cause harm, as I've said above.



That's my point. You're fine with people hearting their own levels but are not fine with people hearting them with their sub-accounts. If it doesn't even matter as you say then there shouldn't be a difference between them.



A small price to pay if you love your level so much.



Your final point merely seals my argument. If it's a useless number that serves no purpose then there is no reason why hearting your level with all your sub-accounts. It doesn't affect anything, so why is it so bad?

Heck, you even contradict yourself; you say it's useless and "serves no purpose", but you look down on people who heart their own creations?

Hearting your level as yourself gets it ONE heart. ONE. ONE heart doesn't matter.

Creating multiple gets you multiple hearts, if you create 10 accounts and heart it on all of them and you get 10 hearts, that's different. You're giving yourself more attention than what the game allows per person. (AKA the creator of the level hearting his own level, so 1 heart). 10 hearts doesn't hold much more benefit than one, but regardless you go against eula when you heart from accounts created only for hearting.

Essentially, when you heart your own levels, you're giving yourself a boost that is perfectly accepted and a feature of the game.
Creating multiple accounts and hearting your level on each of them is against the EULA, therefore "Not allowed". Creating multiple accounts is not a feature of the game. Hearting yourself is. The. END.


How you could think the two are similar in any way is beyond my understanding.

KlawwTheClown
09-22-2013, 04:38 PM
If hearting your own level does nothing then why is having multiple sub-accounts heart your own level bad? If it doesn't affect any of the algorithms then why should it even matter?



So, if you really liked your own levels, you should be able to heart them using your sub-accounts, as it obviously doesn't cause harm, as I've said above.



That's my point. You're fine with people hearting their own levels but are not fine with people hearting them with their sub-accounts. If it doesn't even matter as you say then there shouldn't be a difference between them.



A small price to pay if you love your level so much.



Your final point merely seals my argument. If it's a useless number that serves no purpose then there is no reason why hearting your level with all your sub-accounts. It doesn't affect anything, so why is it so bad?

Do you not realize how irrational your argument is? I use a feature built in to the game once, with my one account, because it's permitted, everyone is able to do it, and it gives a slight boost to the level.

Are you also saying that since I occasionally play my own levels, I should make a whole bunch of accounts to boost my plays, too because it's possible?

Your entire argument is that you're able to boost the ratings on your level, and that it's a bad thing for people to take pride in what they spend hundreds of hours of their life making, so anybody who so much as puts their little stamp of approval on something they make is instantly a useless piece of garbage trying to gain a sense of false popularity in a children's game.

No, hearts don't do anything with the algorithms, they just make your level look more appealing to the people who find it in-game. Something that is pretty important when a level is first published. If I see a level with 3 plays, 2 yays and 2 hearts, it looks a lot more appealing than one that has been boosted with sub accounts to have 3 plays, 2 yays and 15 hearts. Definitely not playing that one.

The difference between hearting it once, and using the sub accounts that you seem so addicted to bringing up is that hearting a level once shows that you are proud of what you made. Hearting it multiple times means you're trying to make it look far more popular than it actually is, and failing at it at the same time.

BrosefJenkins
09-22-2013, 05:02 PM
I am going to throw something.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 05:14 PM
Heck, you even contradict yourself; you say it's useless and "serves no purpose", but you look down on people who heart their own creations?

Hearting your level as yourself gets it ONE heart. ONE. ONE heart doesn't matter.

Creating multiple gets you multiple hearts, if you create 10 accounts and heart it on all of them and you get 10 hearts, that's different. You're giving yourself more attention than what the game allows per person. (AKA the creator of the level hearting his own level, so 1 heart). 10 hearts doesn't hold much more benefit than one, but regardless you go against eula when you heart from accounts created only for hearting.

Essentially, when you heart your own levels, you're giving yourself a boost that is perfectly accepted and a feature of the game.
Creating multiple accounts and hearting your level on each of them is against the EULA, therefore "Not allowed". Creating multiple accounts is not a feature of the game. Hearting yourself is. The. END.


How you could think the two are similar in any way is beyond my understanding.

It's hardly the end.

With your logic, If the game really didn't like you creating sub-accounts to heart your own levels, then it wouldn't let accounts from the same IP heart each other, so by you it's technically right.

Secondly, if creating sub-accounts to heart your own level is against the EULA, I don't know how hearting your own level isn't. I can't use LBP right now, so I can't read it, but I know that even though there is probably a "don't exploit the ratings system" clause in there, unless it specifies what is and isn't exploiting the ratings, I can't comment on it. Personally, I think creating sub-accounts to heart your own level AND hearting your own level is rather conceited. It's like liking your own facebook status or youtube video, or giving your own product a good rating with a review saying, "Well I liked it!"


Do you not realize how irrational your argument is? I use a feature built in to the game once, with my one account, because it's permitted, everyone is able to do it, and it gives a slight boost to the level.

Are you also saying that since I occasionally play my own levels, I should make a whole bunch of accounts to boost my plays, too because it's possible?

Your entire argument is that you're able to boost the ratings on your level, and that it's a bad thing for people to take pride in what they spend hundreds of hours of their life making, so anybody who so much as puts their little stamp of approval on something they make is instantly a useless piece of garbage trying to gain a sense of false popularity in a children's game.

No, hearts don't do anything with the algorithms, they just make your level look more appealing to the people who find it in-game. Something that is pretty important when a level is first published. If I see a level with 3 plays, 2 yays and 2 hearts, it looks a lot more appealing than one that has been boosted with sub accounts to have 3 plays, 2 yays and 15 hearts. Definitely not playing that one.

The difference between hearting it once, and using the sub accounts that you seem so addicted to bringing up is that hearting a level once shows that you are proud of what you made. Hearting it multiple times means you're trying to make it look far more popular than it actually is, and failing at it at the same time.

First of all, you do realize that playing your own level does not up the play count, while hearting your own level does?

Secondly, you seem to have a knack for creating strawmen. I do not think "it's a bad thing for people to take pride in what they spend hundreds of hours of their life making, so anybody who so much as puts their little stamp of approval on something they make is instantly a useless piece of garbage trying to gain a sense of false popularity in a children's game". You are intentionally miswording what I'm saying to make me look bad (while accusing me of making you look bad), and quite frankly, it's immature. I do not like it when people heart their own levels, and I'm giving reasons why. That is all.

Thirdly, you do realize that you can be proud of your level and not heart it, right? And how you react to levels (the whole 3 plays, 2 yays, 2 hearts thing) is not good evidence to support your conclusion. I do not play levels that the creator hearted. If I do, then it's a mistake. People are different.

But lastly, I simply think that hearting your own level is exploiting the rating system, if it's how grayspence described it (rather vaguely, though). Ratings are not what you think of the level. Ratings are what other people think of the level. By hearting your own level, you are skewing the ratings-a tiny bit, but still. As said above, it's like liking your own facebook status, youtube video, or giving your product a good rating and saying "Well I liked it!"

TheMonkeyBlade
09-22-2013, 05:50 PM
It's hardly the end.

With your logic, If the game really didn't like you creating sub-accounts to heart your own levels, then it wouldn't let accounts from the same IP heart each other, so by you it's technically right.

Secondly, if creating sub-accounts to heart your own level is against the EULA, I don't know how hearting your own level isn't. I can't use LBP right now, so I can't read it, but I know that even though there is probably a "don't exploit the ratings system" clause in there, unless it specifies what is and isn't exploiting the ratings, I can't comment on it. Personally, I think creating sub-accounts to heart your own level AND hearting your own level is rather conceited. It's like liking your own facebook status or youtube video, or giving your own product a good rating with a review saying, "Well I liked it!"



First of all, you do realize that playing your own level does not up the play count, while hearting your own level does?

Secondly, you seem to have a knack for creating strawmen. I do not think "it's a bad thing for people to take pride in what they spend hundreds of hours of their life making, so anybody who so much as puts their little stamp of approval on something they make is instantly a useless piece of garbage trying to gain a sense of false popularity in a children's game". You are intentionally miswording what I'm saying to make me look bad (while accusing me of making you look bad), and quite frankly, it's immature. I do not like it when people heart their own levels, and I'm giving reasons why. That is all.

Thirdly, you do realize that you can be proud of your level and not heart it, right? And how you react to levels (the whole 3 plays, 2 yays, 2 hearts thing) is not good evidence to support your conclusion. I do not play levels that the creator hearted. If I do, then it's a mistake. People are different.

But lastly, I simply think that hearting your own level is exploiting the rating system, if it's how grayspence described it (rather vaguely, though). Ratings are not what you think of the level. Ratings are what other people think of the level. By hearting your own level, you are skewing the ratings-a tiny bit, but still. As said above, it's like liking your own facebook status, youtube video, or giving your product a good rating and saying "Well I liked it!"
That's bull crap. Stop being so stubborn about this, honestly, you keep saying "your logic doesn't make sense" when you don't even explain your reasons for not hearting your own levels. Hell, I haven't seen a valid reason from you yet.

Your arguments are weak. No, cheating to get a ton of hearts is completely different than hearting your level yourself, once. You refuse to even think about what we're saying before you say "wow, your logic sucks." I don't get how someone has the mindset that you have with this, it really does confuse me.

We're not changing your words to make you look bad, you're making yourself look bad. Why don't I spam my level in the level showcase? I can, if I wanted to, and It would be more effective than posting one showcase. Hell, I could even make multiple accounts to recommend it, too. I mean, it's the same as just making one level showcase, isn't it?

I must be some kind of conceited freak for wanting people to acknowledge my creations, right?

I can't even take what you're saying seriously anymore. I find it more humorous, actually, how someone can think that cheating and using a feature built into the game are bascially the same thing.

bonner123
09-22-2013, 06:05 PM
The tiny droplet descended the window in a great hurry, in a marvelous iridescence. It was a church long abandoned. No one sang in these halls. Stained on the floor was evidence of a dark past.

The church stood derelict, seemingly swaying in the wind. The locals didn't talk about it. Most didn't remember what happened, or chose not to.

There was a tower in the middle of a desert. It was a monolith of steel and glass, it dominated the landscape like fires dominate the forest. Cloaked men swarmed in and out, like bees in a hive. No one knew why the tower was built, no one can enter aside from the cloaked men.

Let's talk about the eccentricity of the orbit. We don't just observe the celestial dance, we take part in it. We are not masters, we are not the prima donna, we are just dancers, dancing a dance of irrelevance.

No one in the tower talked about this. If they did, who could know? No one in the church ever talked about this. If they did, who could know?

The tower grew more massive by the day. It grew out of the desert, it spoiled the dead landscape. Cloaks became more elaborate. The tower became more hideous. The turret branched out it three directions, and a hideous signal emitted from it's homely precipice.

Broadcasts from this tower reached all corners of the Earth. Even the church would have received it had it not be abandoned.

The world grew aware about a forum called LBPC. It was a fansite for a long dead game. No one knew what LittleBigPlanet was, or what a Playstation was. The archives don't speak of history prior to the event.

No one knew what was meant by hearting one's own level. No one cared. The ancient ones were long dead. They caused the event. They should be forgotten by all but the senior archivists who never will see the light.

They said debates were held about this. Scholars, knowing it didn't matter, chose to drink the mudboo, a hideous drink that came from the Moonlit Bazaar.

The cosmic dance continued.

The church was forgotten. LBPC was forgotten. All that mattered was the tower.

It was the only hope.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 06:18 PM
That's bull crap. Stop being so stubborn about this, honestly, you keep saying "your logic doesn't make sense" when you don't even explain your reasons for not hearting your own levels. Hell, I haven't seen a valid reason from you yet.


I keep saying their logic doesn't make sense, because, quite frankly, it doesn't make sense. You can see the cases in this thread where I take the logic they used and use it right back at them. And I've given you plenty of reasons for what I believe in. You can simply look at my other posts. All my main points are back up with reasons, and the ones I didn't back up by accident I could probably do now if you put them to me.


Your arguments are weak. No, cheating to get a ton of hearts is completely different than hearting your level yourself, once. You refuse to even think about what we're saying before you say "wow, your logic sucks." I don't get how someone has the mindset that you have with this, it really does confuse me.


Give me reasons for why my argument is weak. All you're doing is stating points others have stated without backing them up. And I never said "wow, your logic sucks". That is another case of putting words into my mouth to mislead people and make me look bad. I correctly pointed out flaws in their logic. To boil that down to "wow, your logic sucks" is just as immature as Klaww's strawman. You are simply trying to discard my finding of flaws.


We're not changing your words to make you look bad, you're making yourself look bad. Why don't I spam my level in the level showcase? I can, if I wanted to, and It would be more effective than posting one showcase. Hell, I could even make multiple accounts to recommend it, too. I mean, it's the same as just making one level showcase, isn't it?


No, you guys are trying to make me look bad. I've already pointed out two cases of this happening. Also, your argument based on the level showcases are fraud. Making a level showcase is an example of advertising your level by honest means. You are not influencing anybody's ratings here. Hearting your level, while possibly a form of advertising, is dishonest. Why? Well, there's a difference between saying your own product is good in an advertisement, and saying your own product is good on a reviewing site. That is, reviewing sites are for ratings (what OTHER people think of it) and advertisement is for promotion (what you want us to think of it). As I've said before (which you haven't countered), it's like liking your facebook status, youtube video, or giving your own product a good score. If a game company gave their own game a 10 on metacritic, sure, it won't make much of a difference, but it is still inherently dishonest. Yes, hearting your own level with sub-accounts is worse than just hearting your own level, but they're both bad, even if the effects are miniscule. It's not like H4H bad, but it's still enough that I think twice about playing a level that their own creator hearted.


I must be some kind of conceited freak for wanting people to acknowledge my creations, right?

Tell me again how I am making myself look bad, and how you aren't distorting what I say.


I can't even take what you're saying seriously anymore. I find it more humorous, actually, how someone can think that cheating and using a feature built into the game are bascially the same thing.


If you aren't even going to take my arguments seriously, then what makes you think you're in a position to refute them?

bonner123
09-22-2013, 06:24 PM
There were no nations anymore. Most of the Earth has been left abandoned. Nature overtook once great cities that served to testament the strength of men. The nomads wandered through these ruins. Only the shamans had any recollection of what happened.

The ancient ones started arguing and didn't stop. The only way it could be ended was through the event.

The Collective claimed the cities around the tower. In what was once the dense waste of the Taklamakan Desert, there was hope. Nomads were not allowed here. No one knew what Taklamakan meant, they just knew to stay away.

Vast amalgamations of pipes dotted the landscape for a purpose incomprehensible to us. If a nomad walked anywhere near the pipes, he or she would disappear, never to be heard from again.

Near the abandoned church there was a seemingly vibrant city: a relic of life before the event. Everything functioned perfectly without man. The nomads stayed away, the poison of the city can kill within minutes. Eyes fade. Nails melt. Hair alights. They stuck to temporary huts near the coast the church overlooked. They fished. They were happy. They will never know about what LBPC was. They will never know about the Collective.

There was no New York anymore, it was obliterated. The archivists had a few pictures, but they choose to burn them. Perhaps it was better to forget, the time will come where contact will be necessary.

Time might not be linear. Perhaps it is malleable. The tower is humanity's last chance.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 06:27 PM
There were no nations anymore. Most of the Earth has been left abandoned. Nature overtook once great cities that served to testament the strength of men. The nomads wandered through these ruins. Only the shamans had any recollection of what happened.

The ancient ones started arguing and didn't stop. The only way it could be ended was through the event.

The Collective claimed the cities around the tower. In what was once the dense waste of the Taklamakan Desert, there was hope. Nomads were not allowed here. No one knew what Taklamakan meant, they just knew to stay away.

Vast amalgamations of pipes dotted the landscape for a purpose incomprehensible to us. If a nomad walked anywhere near the pipes, he or she would disappear, never to be heard from again.

Near the abandoned church there was a seemingly vibrant city: a relic of life before the event. Everything functioned perfectly without man. The nomads stayed away, the poison of the city can kill within minutes. Eyes fade. Nails melt. Hair alights. They stuck to temporary huts near the coast the church overlooked. They fished. They were happy. They will never know about what LBPC was. They will never know about the Collective.

There was no New York anymore, it was obliterated. The archivists had a few pictures, but they choose to burn them. Perhaps it was better to forget, the time will come where contact will be necessary.

Time might not be linear. Perhaps it is malleable. The tower is humanity's last chance.

I'm sorry if we're speaking too loud for you.

But seriously, if you're going to make fun of us at least try to be on topic. This is how threads are derailed, and if you seriously are going to derail a thread just because you don't like it, then that's rather selfish.

bonner123
09-22-2013, 06:31 PM
The pipes drew power from the desert. The tower was now ready. Waves ebbed in and out. Everything around the tower collapsed in an instant. All of the tribes were gone. The church was gone. The only survivors were the cloaked men in the tower.

The year was X570, the tower began construction.

The year was X230, tribes began to emerge.

The year was X000, rampage and chaos.

The year was 2094, they were getting close.

The year was 2012, it was time.

The cloaked men emerged from the tower. It took them months to reach civilization. The Chinese authorities attempted to control the event, but they were no match. The cloaked men made sure not to kill, only to subdue.

They made it to a relay station, they had a message most dire.

EDIT:

This is what they said:

Stop being morons about the most irrelevant of topics. It doesn't matter if someone hearts their own levels, who cares. It doesn't matter if they don't. People having debates about this are morons. IT DOESN'T MATTER. It is a frickin' game. Read a book, go to school. Just stop being spergs about a children's videogame.

The cloaked men had hope that the debate would be closed. Perhaps there was hope for the future after all.

The end.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 06:36 PM
Seriously, bonner. Stop.

EDIT:


This is what they said:

Stop being morons about the most irrelevant of topics. It doesn't matter if someone hearts their own levels, who cares. It doesn't matter if they don't. People having debates about this are morons. IT DOESN'T MATTER. It is a frickin' game. Read a book, go to school. Just stop being spergs about a children's videogame.

The cloaked men had hope that the debate would be closed. Perhaps there was hope for the future after all.

The end.

We can talk about what we please. There is no rule here against being stupid. If you feel superior to us, good. But let us be. This forum isn't catered to what you like or don't like.

Nistarx
09-22-2013, 06:42 PM
Amusing to the last bit.

grayspence
09-22-2013, 06:46 PM
We can talk about what we please. There is no rule here against being stupid. If you feel superior to us, good. But let us be. This forum isn't catered to what you like or don't like.

I rather like it. Breaks up the monotony of the senseless babbling.

Kalawishis
09-22-2013, 06:49 PM
I rather like it. Breaks up the monotony of the senseless babbling.

The babbling you took part in?

This thread needs a good quote from Ungreth:


Ok....erm...well, I'm just gonna leave this here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_dissent

Anyway, enough about that. Let us now promote a harmonious community by joining together in song...


And if anyone disagrees, get 'em up against the wall!

If people here are going to derail threads just because they don't like them, then they're being inconsiderate. So what if we're arguing over a small thing? We can do that. There is no rule against arguing over a small thing. If you don't like it go to a different thread.

Lady_Luck__777
09-22-2013, 06:52 PM
Ok, since this is getting WAY off topic, it's time for a lock.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion on this subject, without being mocked, attacked or made fun of.