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ThommyTheThird
02-07-2009, 03:20 PM
Hello everyone!

Note: I do not have pictures for this level, since they were of a bad quality, and might spoil things. If someone could get me some good, non-spoiling pictures it would be great.

This level has been a pain in the butt to tweak, and after atleast 60 hours i finally got everything i know of to work bug free.

This level is all about secrets, if you see an object in this level, it's most likely used to reveal yet another secret :O

WARNING: Meaning it's all about secrets, it's also about thinking logically, and having some patience. This level isn't adviced for the younger audience, since they are unlikely to solve the puzzles. Once again, it's a complex level and may be frustrating.

Most secrets will get you points and this brings a competitive aspect of this level. If you think you discovered all the secrets, but you're still not nr.1 on the scoreboards? Most likely there's more secrets that you don't know about.

There are 3 big secrets, and a lot of small ones. The big ones will give you a major boost of points if you figure out all 3 of them i one run.

I am NOT going to tell you anything about the secrets, or where to find them. It's all up to YOU to figure them out, or you can ask other players, but they will most likely not be sharing this kind of information :P Nobody wants to get their highscore beaten, now do we?

There's also quite a lot of artwork, made out of stickers, spread around the level. I think it gives a nice touch, and breaks the emptiness that's seen in quite a few user-made levels.

The only hazard found in this level will be lightning.

If you fall off, and think.. Uh-oh, i can't get back up. Well you probably can. You just have to think, or walk around it :P

Warning: It might not be for the easily-frustrated, because it ca contain some hard platforming parts.

I hope you all enjoy my level, and appreciate my effort. PLEASE give loads of feedback/bugs since it will let me now what was good, and what might beak the game.

Current status: 287 Plays, 16 Hearts, 3-stars, Tricky, Beautiful, Puzzle.

NinjaMicWZ
02-08-2009, 09:21 PM
I was looking forward to this because I saw your project thread, and you obviously had a clear direction of what you wanted to do visually and conceptually. You certainly achieved a good look here, with the simple colors and the use of wood and the very solid look. I like the wood materials in general, and this is a good use of them. One thing I liked was the ornate shaping of the metal on the foreground. The first area is my favorite part... one thing there though, is that it's extremely difficult and almost impossible to get back up to the checkpoint and get back onto the blocks so you can go to the second area after you've hit the switch to lower the wall. The rod-connected blocks are raised, and the top of the red staircase just isn't high enough. I would slide the blue/red/brown staircase over a square and add one more layer so that it exactly meets with the checkpoint platform.

The other areas are headscratching, at least when you're trying to find the secrets... I only lit up one light (the middle one) but I did activate and open several other secret areas. This level is extremely small and short, but you can spend at least an hour in it trying to plan and analyze how to go about it effectively.

I had to restart about 10 times at the start, before I slowed down a little to make sure I avoided going down there. When I went back later to try and see if I had opened something up, or how I could... again, I had to restart, which made me have to redo all the other carefully aligned, sequential block puzzles again.

The second area with the electric, area feels a little cramped to me. If there was anyway you could open it up a little, like raise the top area where the wheel is and make the piston grab elevator longer... and push the whole red-light brown-white area over about 10 feet just to give the player some walking room. It would feel better to me and give the level a slightly bigger scope. If there's anywhere else you think you could spread the level's wings a little, I would recommend doing so... as thoughtful and as rewarding as the puzzle is I think some regular platforming and walking would add heaps of playability to it wherever it could fit in. It's probably ALOT of work though, because of how connected all your mechanics are, and how much of it is built around a moving and layered jigsaw design so I don't expect it to become something different than it is.

At one point I somehow broke the exclamation point block and had to restart... I had the yellow block up in it's designated yellow-light zone that time, I would have been stuck and unable to go back up to the next level. The red block was on top of the raised red light, the blue block can't come back out, and the lower "secret area" was open so I could jump up to where the blue/red dissolve material was to jump over and push the red-light block back off.

I really like your simple and selective sticker use too... it gives it a really interesting and artistic look. It's wall art, and I like how the bird cage chirps - that was a nice touch.

Overall, a nice looking level with alot of potential and I like how it's packed to the brim with a focus on secrets and head scratching box-puzzles... wish I could figure out the other two lol

GruntosUK
02-08-2009, 09:55 PM
I'm just playing your level now, here is what I found :-)

+ Looks very good, nice use of materials, excellent use of stickers. Its very mad looking
+ I like the blocks at the start that you move up to get access to the higher level, simple, but well thoughtout.

- It seems difficulty to jump back up the steps at the beginning if you fall, the orangy step needs raising a bit, it took me about 10 attempts to get up there. The second try I had, I could'nt get back up at all. In fact, everytime I fell down there I couldnt bothered to fight to get back up so just popped Sackboy instead. Especially fustrating when you have to restart through popping yourself.
- You can push the exclamation mark block into the small hole and then cant get it out again. I thought this might have trigged a secret, in the end I had to restart

I just could'nt figure out what to do. I jumped up on the ! block, and then hit a dead end, I backtracked to the start, just could'nt figure it out. PM a hint and I'll retry.

Very cool looking puzzling level though. I just want to get that bit further :-)

NinjaMicWZ
02-08-2009, 10:07 PM
I pushed it into the hole on both sides the first two times once I finally got out of the first room...

just go up by jumping on top of it

I would just make the exclamation block bigger so that it can't fit in the holes... unless it has to be a small enough size to fit between the red-blue light pedestal that raises when the red-light block is on top. I noticed it fits super snug when if the block goes down in there - thought that might have opened something up.

A thin piece of glass underneath the box wouldn't hurt either so that it slides - that would also bump the grab piece up to a better eyelevel for sackboy, and the player would have less chance of flipping the exclamation block over to where it can't be grabbed and moved anymore. That happened one time to me, and again, I restarted.

ThommyTheThird
02-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Thanks everyone for the great feedback, and i will try to improve some parts of the level as you mentioned.

EDIT: Sorry about the stairs in the beginning, i tried to see if i could jump up, and it worked the first time around, so i didn't really think about it being impossible. Sorry :(

Btw: i had the exclamation block bigger, but it was too heavy to push, you had to tap X retardedly fast, and i'm sure i'm one of the few that could (or even cares to) do so. I will see if i can make glass underneath it without it getting ugly.

I'm really sorry, but due to reasons i'm not going to say, there's not all too much i can do about that certain area being a bit cramped :( I'll do my best to find a solution though.

Also, funny to see how you got the middle secret first :P I was expecting the first one to be rather easy, but hell, glad it turns out harder than it seemed to me.

NinjaMicWZ
02-09-2009, 01:48 PM
I know to push and hit X... alot of players don't though :/ I have a level I haven't finished where I'm pretty sure that's going to be a problem too.

Yeah, I don't expect it to be expanded in that area... especially after finding some of the secrets there. I know how hard it is to construct something like that in the first place, let alone tear it apart and try to rebuild it in a different way. It was just my thoughts.

ThommyTheThird
02-09-2009, 02:04 PM
Yeah, i know you tried to improve my level, but i'm sad to think it's unlikely to happen :(

Did fix the part in the beginning though but i'm not sure if it's a good looking solution, and made the exclamation block bigger.

Btw, if you didn't give up on the secrets yet, Good luck!

Dante95
02-09-2009, 04:44 PM
I tried your level! It had a cool grapich, but it was a little "complicate". I found some secrets, but for example the "!" box was hard to move, expecially in the right way (--->). The HUD idea was cool, and i liked many platform zones.
Overall, you had a innovative idea with this level, but it's to slow and hard, you can get bored if you can't do some zones or for some bugs (like the "!" box).
If you improve it, the level can be very appreciated :D

JackBurton25
02-09-2009, 11:39 PM
Hi,

Thanks for your feedback on Left Behind P.2!

I managed to finish your level, but I think I only found one secret. I will try it again later to see if I can find the other two secrets before posting my full comments.

:)

ThommyTheThird
02-10-2009, 03:42 PM
Nice, i see you want to play the entire level, before giving criticism :) It does give you a good look on the level. And i also think you might be the first player to get all 3 secrets :P

P.S.: I also saw some1 in LBP posting a comment that he will write feedback on lbpc, but i forgot his name :(

Glad you can appreciate my efforts.

Pinchanzee
02-10-2009, 04:36 PM
First off, the first thing that caught me about this level was it's visuals.
It was completely stunning! The background detail was unbelievable, kudos to you :)

Here's some pros and cons!

pros


Once again, astounding visuals, the colour coding of the layers also came in pretty useful!

Your piston idea at the beginning was sweet! I'd've preffered for it to be a wee bit more complex (maybe it was for the secret, god knows) but it did the job brilliantly!

Secrets were hidden brilliantly.. spent ages trying to find the first, but gave up xD

Defo, replay material! It's gonna be interesting trying to get the secrets..


Overall a brilliant level, which deserves WAY more credit that it's getting!
I'd recomment putting in a recommended age in the description.. That's what I plan to do on my puzzly levels, it saves young 'uns wasting there time solving the puzzles when they're not really into that kind of thing :) 10+ 12+?

cons


(kinda because of the fact that I couldn't be on for long) I couldn't finish the level... I Dragged the exclamation mark box over to the left.. thinking it was a secret key to the thing just right of the HUD. Turns out it didn't fit to well and got completely jammed, ruining any chances of me completing the level.

I came to a point in the starting room where I couldn't climb up just because of a tiny wee bit of height, a little piston tweaking should fix that (i think i done the two switches first then went back and did the first switch again)

Your pistons blocks at the beginning got annoying at times. I loved them and the idea of them, but jumping back and forward got really repetitive with trying to stop your jump right on time before shooting of the edge.. I'd suggest making them a wee bit longer, it's things like that that pull your start rating from 5 to 4.

I'd've liked to have seen more clues for the secrets.. Sure you may have implimented a few but remember, just because you see them, doesn't mean everybody else will. I think very few people will find the secrets unless you give them a little lee-way


I'm sorry I couldn't give full feedback, I'll try to finish the level some other time! But overall, a beautiful, modern, complex level which has clearly had a lot of work put into it.
Great job :)

EDIT: the person you mention in the above post was me ^_^

ThommyTheThird
02-10-2009, 04:42 PM
ooh yeah, sorry, didn't recognize you as your LBPC name is different from your PSN :P

Yeah, i'll try to give a bit more hints, but then again.. the small secrets shouldn't be too hard, because there aren't that many Objects, but hey.. i'll see what i can do.

If i feel like it, and if i can think of ways to do so, i might even add a few more :O I really liked making the secrets.

Then again, did you mean i could give hints for the smaller secrets, or the bigger ones?

(P.S. seems like everyone likes to ram the !-block into the holes, i'll see what i can do. I myself am really cautious with these kind of things, since i know a lot of creators don't think of these things... Turns out i'm one of those creators myself.)

ThommyTheThird
02-11-2009, 03:34 PM
Alright, i now fixed the !-block thing, and added a slight hint.. Yet i feel that i can't think of more hints.. The only help i could give is spoil it, but i'm not going to.

NinjaMicWZ
02-11-2009, 05:09 PM
Hey, man. I just played through it again a bunch of times. The small changes you made are great, especially in the first area - the veiny connectivity of your ornate iron work pattern is sweet.

AND I found out the other secret areas. BUT the middle LED secret won't activate anymore. I'm not sure why but when I put the ! where it's supposed to go it won't activate the "HUD" block. It just stays down and never opens up the lower area. The sound event would trigger, and the secondary secret on top would work... but it just wouldn't activate. Maybe I did something in the wrong order?

I would have gotten all three lights and seen whatever the final secret room is if it wasn't for that. Also, in my attempts to try and get it to kick into gear, I managed to break the blue/red LED piston-box in the middle a bunch of times to where it wouldn't extend anymore or had the eclamation box lodged in the hole (it used to slide down in there perfectly) - I also broke the sliding slab up top that is activated by the final 2 way switch. It extends, and then if you pull the switch again, it retracts only half way and will never extend out again so the level can't be finished.

Another restart-worthy thing is that the yellow-light block can be pushed into the right tunnel towards the red-light blocks and is almot impossible to dislodge which prevents you from getting back to the top. I DID dislodge it, but I know most people won't be able to. Maybe just make the ceiling a centimeter lower and too narrow for the yellow-light block to be pushed through.

Also, the red-light block - if you push it right towards the blue-light you are screwed. Just put something there to prevent it from pushing towards the right...

I still need to activate all 3 lights and clear the level with whatever score I get, but I have this level hearted and have spent ALOT of time in it, and I greatly enjoy it. The gameplay is awesome, the structure and the looks are impeccable, and it's very deep and rewarding. I'm starting to think that these more puzzle-oriented levels are my favorites in LBP.

ThommyTheThird
02-11-2009, 05:40 PM
Alright, wow that's a whole lot of bugs you found :P I'm both disappointed and glad though XD

I'll try to fix most of these, and i have absolutely NO idea why the 2nd light wouldn't work... i'll test/fix some of those things now.

I have no idea how to fix the red/light LED elevator thing. Since.. well..There's not really a way to prevent the player from pushing the Red box down again.

EDIT: Fixed the yellow problem, and the red light problem. Easy fixes.

Also, nice find on the 3rd HUD-light. You actually looked for it :P I figured most people would never even think about going there.

EDIT: The 2nd secret seems fixed now. Apperenately the HUD block got stuck, so i now used non-grid to make it a TINY bit smaller, and it seems to run smoothly now.

Pinchanzee
02-11-2009, 06:49 PM
Alright, i now fixed the !-block thing, and added a slight hint.. Yet i feel that i can't think of more hints.. The only help i could give is spoil it, but i'm not going to.

I don't think you're gonna stop people trying it...
I recomend you make a safety cover for the little hole.
Have a mag key so when it comes close to it (sackboy pushing it towards its doom) a screen comes horizontally blocking the hole.
But if you do this, you should make a little speech bubble to explain why it's been done.. otherwise people will think it's something to get around to get a secret!

ThommyTheThird
02-11-2009, 07:16 PM
Have a mag key so when it comes close to it (sackboy pushing it towards its doom) a screen comes horizontally blocking the hole.

I did indeed fix it like this, and same thing for the problem that NinjaMicWZ said, (pushing the red block to the right) since it was the first thing that came to my mind. Since it's both a visual sign saying, "Other way, nubby" and actually blocking you from going further.

The problem now though, is that you can put the !-block on the blue pedestal, and then knock the red block down, causing them both to lower, thus dragging the !-block down. Jamming the pedestals in the progress. I'm thought of making the lower piston a permanent switch, but then there was no way to ever get the red block on it's pedestal, if it's been knocked down.

I really appreciate it that you all put so much effort into breaking my game :P I didn't know i had so many bugs still in it. Ironically, with more rebels like you, LBP is a safer place :D

NinjaMicWZ
02-11-2009, 07:19 PM
Alright, wow that's a whole lot of bugs you found :P I'm both disappointed and glad though XD

I'll try to fix most of these, and i have absolutely NO idea why the 2nd light wouldn't work... i'll test/fix some of those things now.

I have no idea how to fix the red/light LED elevator thing. Since.. well..There's not really a way to prevent the player from pushing the Red box down again.

EDIT: Fixed the yellow problem, and the red light problem. Easy fixes.

Also, nice find on the 3rd HUD-light. You actually looked for it :P I figured most people would never even think about going there.

EDIT: The 2nd secret seems fixed now. Apperenately the HUD block got stuck, so i now used non-grid to make it a TINY bit smaller, and it seems to run smoothly now.

Yeah, your use of stickers is really genius in this level. The eyes have it. They're functional and flagrant heh

mrsupercomputer
02-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Okay, my brain is fried after trying to figure out all the puzzles, but in a good way! I really enjoyed the look of the level and the idea of a small space with many different puzzles elements intertwined. It kind of made me think of those stuck in a room flash games that you can play online. Unfortunately, I wasn't very good here it seems. I moved the purple and yellow light into there designated spots, but that was about all my tiny brain could figure out!

Pros:
Look - My favorite part is the first section with the wood blocks and drawings on the wall, with the iron sprawling out and over the side. Very nice.

Clever puzzles - Like I said, you hurt my brain, but in a good way!

Cons:
I had to restart the level several times because of simple mistakes. A block was pushed off, a block fell of a lift etc.

As Ninja pointed out, the second area with the lighting is pretty tight quarters and I found movement a bit frustrating at times.

Overall, I think this is a pretty ingenious idea that will continue to improve as you tweak it. I'm going to rest my brain, but I'll be sure to give it another go in the future.

kobrakai15
02-12-2009, 07:40 PM
I like my levels challenging, this definately challenges meh poor little brain!

Pros: - Puzzlage, decent ones at that. It actually makes you think, and that's a rare thing for a level. LBP needs more levels with this premise in mind.
-Presentation, the stickers are nice to look at, the design of the look doesn't look cluttered, but not empty, which is a good balance.

Cons: -it's easy to pull some blocks into wrong places, i got one caught under that small lift and couldn't get it out. Possibly restrict some blocks from some areas?
-some awkward platforming bits, not too bad but maybe make some bits less annoying to ease tension?

I've not played all the way through it, still on it now, but I'll edit this post when I'm done.

JackBurton25
02-13-2009, 01:04 PM
Hi ThommyTheThird,

My comments after several plays :

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

+ Unique concept. A small environment with plenty of puzzle that require thinking.

+ I like the simple and clean look.

+ Challenging!

+ You made some tweaking since I first played and it's a lot better. Now you can't push the (!) block to hole in the right for example.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- The place where you have to climb after pushing the (!) block. I don't know if it's the camera angle, but it took me 5 minutes to figure how to climb. Others players joined me one time. They just just left the game after trying for to climb up that part for 2-3 minutes...

- After you finished climbing, you have to suicide yourself? I'm asking because I did not found any other way to go grab the sponge attached to a piston. There's an electrified object that seems to dissapear only when you jump near it...

- Then, you grab the sponge and go up. Now this is the part I think is a bit frustrating. There's two electrified things (one near the ceiling and the other on the floor) and you have to do a timed jump. I spent many lives there.

- When I finally jump over the two electric things, I keep falling down on the box with the switch and have to re-do the jump of the death again...

- It's easy to get the wrong thing at the wrong place. I got stuck plenty of times trying different things. Like Ninja said : "yellow-light block can be pushed into the right tunnel towards the red-light blocks and is almot impossible to dislodge which prevents you from getting back to the top." I also got stuck under the elevator 2 or 3 times. Last time, I pushed the box at the top(where you have abig "PUSH" on the background) near the right edge of the platform, then grabbed it. The piston catapulted me on the other side and the box got stuck somewhere on a higher platform , preventing me from finishing the level.

- I know, others mentionned it, but I would like to have a bit more hints for the secrets.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'll be back since it seems the level is getting better everytime I play it.

ThommyTheThird
02-13-2009, 01:48 PM
Alright.. Here's a big hint. You CAN ace the level, you do NOT have to suicide in order to remove the electrified object. There's a sticker, with a hand pointing towards a tiny piece of sponge.

This happens on the back layer, but you can take a run towards it from the middle layer. (right after you climb up that chessboard-looking part.)

You can then hold R1 in mid-air and you then safely grab the sponge. The dissolvable electrified object disappears if you hang there for a tiny amount of time.

Also, jackburton. Could you try to explain the first negative comment you mentioned? I'm really sorry, but i do not really understand what you meant there.

EDIT: never mind, i figured out what you meant. But.. did you feel relieved when you got up there? :D I'm really sorry, but i'm afraid i'll leave that as it is. You'll just have to experiment to get out, as there's only 1 pattern you can follow in order to get out.

EDIT: Hmm, i'm wondering what to do with the electrified thingies, in the top tunnel. The part where you died loads of times. And as i wrote, i figured it out. I'm moving the entrance to that switch, to the left side. So you jump off of the piston sponge. ;) This gives me a bit of space, to spread those electric hazards, making it a bit easier.

And also, i have a moral dillema about the "Pushing blocks too hard, making the secret impossible"-things. I think it's part of the actual secret, that you do everything in moderation, and think about the consequences. Don't get me wrong, i don't want to punish you, or call you a noob, it's just that for example, the yellow-light box, needs to be gently pushed if you want to be able to get the secret.

Also, i'll move the piston under the "PUSH" thing a bit further back.

About the hints, do i need to make hints for the 3 big secrets? Or the smaller ones aswell?

JackBurton25
02-13-2009, 02:22 PM
I have no problem getting up now that I know the pattern. ;) I just wanted you to know that some people will think it's "broken" and just leave the level.

For the "Pushing blocks too hard, making the secret impossible", I have no problem with that either, that's the main reason for my unique concept comment. I admit that I prefer to be able to solve puzzles without having to restart a level, but since the level is small, it's less annoying.

Maybe you should add to your description something that specify that if you make the wrong move, there's a good chance that you won't be able to get all the secrets... "Think before you act" for example.

:)

ThommyTheThird
02-13-2009, 02:39 PM
Alright, i'm now fixing the bugs you mentioned, and making some parts (for example the "all secrets unlocked room" and the scoreboard.. since they looked lame.

I think it will be a better touch, and a major improvement if you looked at it in the old version.

EDIT: Awesome, i fixed them, and the way you recieve your points when you gathered all 3 secrets is now at least 37x as awesome. If you got the time, please check it out ;)

Serpit
02-14-2009, 03:31 PM
First, let me thank you again for the review. Naturally, Iíll return the favor ;-)

While my level was story- and puzzle-driven, yours was 100% puzzling action, or at least it should have been. The level immediately gives you this feeling, as if youíre in some kind of box and thereís nothing you can do but solve the puzzles thrown at you. I like that.

Visually, the most impressive thing was the use of stickers. All the little drawing you made combining completely unrelated stickers was wonderful and creative, and the fact that some of them even acted as hints for the puzzles only added to that. Iíve been debating ith my brother if you made that one beast (wolf or something? Forgot) yourself or not, because it looked so awesome. Did you?

Now, getting to the gameplay aspect, the level was hard, but with the excepion of one obstacle pretty easy to get through if you didnít look for the secrets. I waited so long with my review because just finishing it obviously doesnít give you the entire experience. Sadly, I failed pretty miserably at finding the secrets <_<

I got the one where you put the yellow lit block on the designated spot and get a lot of score bubbles, but despite the applause that apparently wasnít a big secret, because no HUD light activates. The only one of those I found is the one labeled 010. There were a lot of spots which I couldnít figure out Ė Like what the little hole with the two blue lights was for, where to put the cloth block you get from that one switch, or how to get past some walls that were apparently made of dissolve. Thereís also all those score bubbles above your starting place which I couldnít reach.

Getting to the bad points though, the level was frustrating -_- The most annoying thing in the whole stage was that one electric obstacle. I figured out that the hand sticker pointed to a grabbable ceiling, but the jump was still ridiculously hard, especially because you ahd to do it multiple times if you tried to get to some secret areas. I only figured out a method to get past it easier on my last attempt, but that would only work after the lighter electric thing behind it is dissolved first, and this initial jump is deadly already. I think that for a level that focuses on puzzles, having such a stupidly hard obstacle only detracts from the experience.

Another problem was that the level basically urged you to try out everything to solve the puzzles, but some of the time that resulted in having to restart the stage. Pulling the !-Block in one of the holes made it useless, and one time I got the idea to put it at itís designated spot, then remove the purple lit block from above to let the !-block sink into the ground, but it got stuck, and so I broke the level XD

I think removing the frustrating platforming elements or at least tweaking them to be easier would do a lot for your level, especially because most of the puzzles were so ingenious. Overall, I enjoyed it precisely BECAUSE it hurt my brain, but the constant need to restart hurt it.

Looking forward to your next level ;-)

ThommyTheThird
02-14-2009, 04:25 PM
Alright, thanks for the feedback!

Sadly, i did not make the wolf myself, and it's one, already made, sticker. I think it's in the "Realistic" section, but i'm not sure.

Also, since it's one of the small secrets, the little blue cloth square, can be pushed into the tiny section with the blue lights at the bottom. And it opens that door you've seen loads of times, with the visible bubbles behind it ;)
(Next to the piston sponge thing)

I'm glad you were mostly positive though ;D

Serpit
02-15-2009, 10:45 AM
Alright, thanks for the feedback!

Sadly, i did not make the wolf myself, and it's one, already made, sticker. I think it's in the "Realistic" section, but i'm not sure.

Also, since it's one of the small secrets, the little blue cloth square, can be pushed into the tiny section with the blue lights at the bottom. And it opens that door you've seen loads of times, with the visible bubbles behind it ;)
(Next to the piston sponge thing)

D


Huh, can't find the wolf, so I guess I just don't have it yet.

I actually pushed the blue cloth square in the hole you mentioned, but I had no idea that actually did something and pulled it out again. It's just really confusing because the hole ahs two blue lights - like the wheel up above - and the cloth square has none. You shoula t least add some kind of accomplishment sound if you push the cloth square into the hole.

ThommyTheThird
02-15-2009, 10:53 AM
Oh ok.. I thought it would be quite obvious, since it opens that door with the score bubbles clearly in view. And since that's the only way up, i thought it would be quite logical :P

But i'll add a sound.

Serpit
02-15-2009, 10:55 AM
Oh ok.. I thought it would be quite obvious, since it opens that door with the score bubbles clearly in view. And since that's the only way up, i thought it would be quite logical :P

But i'll add a sound.

Haha, maybe I'm just stupid and didn't see it. >_<
I'll probably try the levle again later today.

Trindall
02-16-2009, 09:03 PM
I have been able to play around on your level for quite a bit now and wanted to leave you some feedback on it.

As this level is all about the puzzles I will start off on the design and look of the level. I enjoyed the stark look of the level as well as the strong use of cubes and straight lines. It is a very consistent theme throughout and the color added in bring emphasis and accentuates the puzzles involved. You have very creative stickering on the walls that make up great murals and designs and help add to the theme of the level.

As I played the level over the last four days I saw that you were also working on improvement to the artwork, the lighting and it is feels like a much better level now because of the work. It is looking good and I like the use of the colored lights. The spartan color palette, art design and decoration help to highlight the puzzles involved but arenít the main attraction.

The puzzles themselves seem to fall into two categories, one shot and multi-staged. The one shot puzzles are mostly straightforward and consist of matching objects and colors and are paid off with immediate access to a cache of score bubbles. In hindsight there is always a theme or a clue that points to the action that solves the puzzle though it took many playthroughs to see some of the connections.

The second puzzle type require a sequence of events to unlock the reward and there are three of them advertised from the start, though I wouldnít put it past the ThommyTheThird from putting in more. I found two of the three and after a few hours searching I only have suspicions on where the third is located but everything I have tried hasnít opened up that segment of the level.

As there is some secret that is unlocked by successfully finding all three major secret zones there is a lot of incentive to crack all of the puzzles. However due to the rather obscure nature of some of the puzzles this can be a frustrating task to complete. This is what separates this level from almost all of the other puzzle based levels in LBP. This level really is just about the puzzles rather than a jumped up level with a few puzzles in it. The level is similar in spirit to the GROW series of flash games crossed with a Japanese puzzle box, himitsu baku for those into puzzles.

There are some environmental hazards to watch out for but the time you spend in this level is all about trying out combinations of actions to see if something moved or revealed will allow a further action to occur. I can talk a bit more about the spirit of the level but I think youíve gotten to point by now.

I still want to go back to find secret number three and that is another thing this level has done right. There is something to come back to after youíve played through it a number of times. (At least until youíve figured out everything the level has to offer.) There a many, many small unlockables, the one-shot puzzles I talked about earlier, so that even if you donít crack the major puzzles there are still more easier, and plentiful puzzles that arenít impossible to put together. (Maybe Ďmany, manyí is too large a number but there are a bunch of these smaller puzzles in the level.)

There are some floor sections that allow you to jump up to a higher spot and some of them donít seem to work well, partly due to some unavoidable problems created by the level design. I donít know why there is one area labeled #1 and another area labeled #10 when I was expecting areas 1, 2 and 3. Does that mean that there are eight other secret areas that Iíve overlooked? And I think there are some clues in some of the stickers that I just canít figure out just yet but the strength and longevity of the puzzling make up for these quibbles.

This a great level that will be a fun treat for those who like puzzling and will be only a moderately enjoyable for those who like puzzles where you put red circle into red hole to open the door and continue. I think that people looking for just about any other type of level will be discouraged easily by the vagueness of some of the puzzles, but then again, this level wasnít made for them.

Good work on this level and after I rest a bit I'm looking forward to another try or two at that last secret.

NinjaMicWZ
02-16-2009, 09:16 PM
You give people great feedback, Trindall. Keep up the good work. I also like how you slyly called out how people consider putting a block in a hole that's right in front of you a puzzle... moving stuff to activate an event does not a puzzle make. If it doesn't require any thought beyond color coordination and face value observation, it by definition, is not puzzling. I don't like when people just use block pushing and mag key events as filler to make an empty environment seem more engaging. This level is like the antithesis to that type of lazy, generic, and thoughtless design crutch.

I told Tommy in a PM, a few days ago, but I figured I'd post here. I finally found all 3 secrets, found as many extras as I could and finished with the #2 score... I'm still 5,000 points short of Thommy though, which means there is much more to this level even beyond the several hours of methodical planning and evaluation I put into it. Easily the deepest level I've played, despite it's relatively small scope and short length.

Serpit
02-17-2009, 02:44 PM
I feel relatively stupid now, as I still can't find more than one major secret >_<

Boogaloo
02-17-2009, 09:11 PM
I like the design of the level - but I'm having difficulty even getting started! I'm using the ! block to get up to the little hole with the point-bubbles, but after that I can't see what to do with it... I know it doesn't fit into the hole, lol.

Edit:

Oh, right. I didn't think that jump could be made.

cornontheCOD
02-18-2009, 07:18 AM
I love the visual style, but I can't get past the ! block in the beginning. I jump up on it, get past the electric thing, jump up the series of cool black and pink lights, then I don't know what to do

graygoose
02-18-2009, 09:49 AM
your level is now in my list.. i will be playing it tomorrow and i will have some feedback then. :)

ThommyTheThird
02-18-2009, 10:27 AM
I believe you will know what to do when you read the other posts in this thread, as others might've hit the same obstacle.

Then again, if not, by all means ask and i will help.

ThommyTheThird
02-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Alright NinjaMicWZ, there's hope for you. Version 1.7 made is easier to beat my score. Still you need a near perfect strategy. And NO i did not just put more score bubbles in there.

Good luck, if you're still trying.

dawesbr
02-18-2009, 07:17 PM
Possibly because I fall under the "younger audiences" denomination, I found this level a challenging, brain-melting feast of seemingly simple, yet frustratingly complex puzzles. The beautiful level design and wonderful stickering hides this level for what it is - the devil incarnate! Not because it is a bad level, but because it's a good one. It achieves its aim - to be a difficult puzzle game full of interwoven secrets and switches - thus forcing me to sit, wide-eyed, staring at the little gap in the ceiling that's just out of reach, with a tantalising "Secret No. 001" on the other side, for over 45 minutes.

The first impressions given are that of a detailed creator. Intiricate patterns line the walls, and even the sticker art-work bird chirps at your Sackboy as you pass by, and these little attentions to detail are the missing element in so many levels out there. The climbing boxes were great, and the HUD was cute. The music fit the minimalistic wood style very well.

But now to the main chunk of the level - the puzzles! I've not reached Secret No. 001 yet, but I know where it is and can see the entrance. The addictivenesss of the level forced me to spend ten minutes jumping on switches, changing the position of the boxes, and even plastering stickers all over the walls in a vain attempt to trigger a sticker switch.

Secret No. 002 was a bit more complicated - I don't even know the trigger, but I think it may have been the ! in the elevator thing? Anywho, there were a couple of problems here. As I have seen has been previously mentioned, the ! can get stuck in the gap next to the HUD, and the level has to be restarted. Anotehr problem is that if the ! is dragged all the way right, to where the platform is eventually raised, the glass seems to stick and it becomes hard to push and pull it.

The purple-lit, multi-layer platform room was I nice touch, and an original that worked well, except for the second section down on the first column, which was easy to get a bit stuck in. The bit that dissolves afterwards electricuted me once before it dissolved, but that was only the once in around 5 restarts. I loved the blue-block secret (I've found many levels that mean you can use a similar trick to skip huge chunks), the blue ball and yellow ball were good as well (I got the yellow ball stuck at the bottom once ;), and when it was placed, some of the emitted points got stuck in the electric on the left), however there is one, slightly spoiler-y point:

Right of the block with a badge on that covers some points, and right of the blue ball, there is a sectioin of wall on the back layer that looks like brown wood; another 5 minutes spent here grabbing, jumping, and pushing blocks as close as possible to this - is it a secret?!

Secret No. 003 I have not had the slightest hint of - the only thing I can think of is:

Above the "PUSH" sign

and I will try that later. I'm sure there's something I'm midding in the later part with the extending bridge, which, incidentally, can be a trouble to extend, when I keep grabbing the left-over purple block instead of the switch, something which will bring me back, inexorably, to this level. Two last notes:

1. The flipper-thing that shoots you up to where the scoreboard is should be on all layers (it just starts flipping while you stand on the back layer), and should maybe be set to direction when sackboy is on top of it (it can end up set to extended when you come back down)

2. Care to drop even the most slight, thin hint as to getting the first secret? I see the entrance, but not the way in!

In all, this level combines a remarkable visual style with engrossing puzzles and original features. Unfortunately, its complexity is its downfall, and most likely the cause of its 3-star rating. It definitely deserves higher, and once the bugs are removed, I would definitely put this at 5-star. For now, however, it stays at 4.

+Great level design
+Attention to detail
+Intriguing puzzles
+Originality

-A few bugs
-Can be too hard at places
-It's a bit short if you give up on the puzzles (I got nowhere after 30 minutes)

Keep up the good work!

ThommyTheThird
02-19-2009, 10:55 AM
Possibly because
I fall under the "younger audiences" denomination

Younger people use words like "incarnate, and "tantalising"? Since when? XD


plastering stickers all over the walls in a vain attempt to trigger a sticker switch. Yeah, no sticker switches in this level sadly.


Secret No. 002 was a bit more complicated - I don't even know the trigger, but I think it may have been the ! in the elevator thing? Anywho, there were a couple of problems here. As I have seen has been previously mentioned, the ! can get stuck in the gap next to the HUD, and the level has to be restarted. Anotehr problem is that if the ! is dragged all the way right, to where the platform is eventually raised, the glass seems to stick and it becomes hard to push and pull it.
Yeah this is indeed pretty hard to fix though.. If the HUD is risen, then you can't push it to the left. But if it's still down you can still push it in.. Also, the to the right thing might be annoying to fix.. It will take a lot of work but i will see what i can do.


(I got the yellow ball stuck at the bottom once ;), and when it was placed, some of the emitted points got stuck in the electric on the left) Yeah, about the stuck on the electric part. I will keep it this way. It seems unprofessional, and lame.. I know. But it can give you about 1000 extra points... So yeah, go figure out how.

Right of the block with a badge on that covers some points, and right of the blue ball, there is a sectioin of wall on the back layer that looks like brown wood; another 5 minutes spent here grabbing, jumping, and pushing blocks as close as possible to this - is it a secret?!

Nope, just a warning block that expands when you put the purple box to the right too much. Since if you throw it off to the right you screwed up! :D


Secret No. 003 I have not had the slightest hint of - the only thing I can think of is:

Above the "PUSH" sign

and I will try that later. Well, go try it already.


1. The flipper-thing that shoots you up to where the scoreboard is should be on all layers (it just starts flipping while you stand on the back layer), and should maybe be set to direction when sackboy is on top of it (it can end up set to extended when you come back down) Yeah. . If you've noticed, the entrance in the ceiling is only 1 layer big, and it's on the front layer. I will see what i can do here to fix this.


2. Care to drop even the most slight, thin hint as to getting the first secret? I see the entrance, but not the way in! You know the metal..? It mostly covers thin layers.. right?

Thanks for being so positive :)

ThommyTheThird
02-19-2009, 11:41 AM
Alright, i believe i fixed all the problems as of now. Go ahead, and break my game even more, tear every single bit apart, and see if you can find even more bugs.. :(

dawesbr
02-19-2009, 01:31 PM
I have a tennis lesson now, I'll run through it again in a couple of hours ;)

ThommyTheThird
02-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Managed to score 19660. And there's still tiny bits of improvements possible.

Also, if you're with 2 players you can really rack up some points. But it needs to be local, since you need huuuge coordination.

Voltiare
02-19-2009, 10:50 PM
Just played it. 4 out of 5 stars and hearted.

Pros:

- Complexity. It isn't completely easy to figure out and some of the puzzles are clever (The part where you had to choose the correct jumping path).
- Visuals. It isn't the most stunning, but the cool design in the foreground and the stickers were good.

Cons:
- The part where you have to jump over the oddly shaped dissolvable material seems counter intuitive. You have the player jumping into certain doom since the player cannot see any sponge or anything. The only reason I found out was just to go for it and see.
- Short. Was this level that taxing on the thermometer?

RickTheRipper
02-20-2009, 01:58 AM
i like the occasional puzzle level, and since i hadn't played one in a long time, this was a breath of fresh air.

pros:

- the level truly was hard simplicity. i liked that.

- the level design made me think of that painting with all the staircases going in every direction.

- the use of the 3 planes is always a plus

- the amount of secrets should keep fans coming back for more

- i liked how you used stickers to give hints. i also liked how a yellow "!" appeared letting me know that the block didn't go over there.


cons:

- way too short. i was aching for more at the end. DO WANT

- the part with the finger pointing at the ceiling was kinda hard to see. maybe adding a light or making it (sticker) bigger could make it easier

- i didn't know where the yellow block went. was i even supposed to move it? if it's meant to be moved, maybe i need to look harder. if it's meant to stay up top, add a barricade


overall, i enjoyed myself and can't wait to find the secrets/play the sequel. 4 stars/hearted

ThommyTheThird
02-20-2009, 11:16 AM
Alright, thanks for the feedback guys.

About the thermo issue, i think it's about 60%... And i was thinking about making the level bigger, and adding more secrets :D I had fun making them.

Then again, out of the.. nearly 300 that have played it, only 5 orso managed to find all secrets.

But yeah i'll probably be adding more... Just have to figure out where.

JUst a question towards you, the players: Should i make the "Found all 3 secrets" section, an actual area? To play in, and get more points? Or would that be a change that only 10% of the players could find..?

RickTheRipper
02-20-2009, 11:32 AM
it'd be a good way to reward the people that find all 3, so go for it. but before you do, you might want to make a quick change.

i was able to jump on the 2nd secret area platform w/o using the 1st. so it could be possible to only find 2 and 3 and access whatever is up there. you could raise it just a tiny bit and no ond will get up there.

ThommyTheThird
02-20-2009, 12:44 PM
Heh.. i managed to get up the top with only unlocked secret 2 :)

You're still missing out on a lot of points by not getting secret 1 though ;)

Boogaloo
02-20-2009, 01:14 PM
I can say with absolute certainty that I've played this level more than any other, lol. While the secrets are the main draw, the point multiplying strategy after all the secrets are unlocked is a very nice touch - adding yet more replay value to an already addictive level.

The only minor issues I have with it are:

There are times that you realise that you need to restart the level, for instance when the yellow block falls off of the raised platform. Now that I know in what order to complete the challenges it's not an issue - but as I was getting to grips with it I was restarting through gritted teeth. I don't think you should dumb down the level in anyway - but maybe there should be a way to go back and undo actions, so that you can continue in the same sitting. Like have the blocks emitted with a switch, so that you can just emit another one if something goes wrong.

I would probably take out the electrified dissolving material, it reacts a bit randomly. Either that or make the trigger area more inclusive. I can see why you put it there - but the jump seems impossible until you just go for broke - and the first two times I did it I got electrocuted and thought there was no way through. The third time I tried was in hopeless frustration!

Get rid of the ! sticker next to the first secret - because the level design is so pared down it really stands out, and as one of the key components is the ! block it appears that the secret has to do with moving it. I spent 30 mins moving the ! block into every conceivable position before eventually fluking the solution out of frustration.

I was also able to climb to the bonus points, despite only getting two of the main secrets.

The machine that delivered my bonus points ended up crushing my precious points in its door!!! Aaaargh!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it's a real tragedy that more people won't give this the time it deserves - the fact is that a lot of people don't like being genuinely taxed, a trait that I blame on our consumerist desires for 'instant gratification' *sigh*.

It's a great idea, well executed, and if you want my advice - don't spend too much time altering this version - instead take all of these comments on board and use the experience gained from making this level on creating the all singing, all dancing sequel - which I'm much looking forward to.

Unfortunately Rayvolution has pinched the best title for it; 'Simplexity' (excellent level), but I'm sure you can think of another. I came up with 'Cognition Reflex'.

I was thinking of doing a similar idea (not the same puzzles, obviously), but as this is clearly a signature theme, I'll give you all of the ideas that occurred to me while playing this level for the (inevitable I hope) sequel, to use as you see fit. Nice work, 5* and ♥.

ThommyTheThird
02-20-2009, 01:21 PM
Lies! I spent more time in this level! (Even only on the play-side, just look at my score to proof it.)

Yeah maybe it is better to just make a sequel instead of expanding this one.. Although, i've added one little secret which unlocks loads of points though o.O Dunno if i keep it this way since it might be too obvious...

Should i put the sequel as locked, and make the key available to only those who gotten all 3 secrets? I can see that reducing my play/heart rate though and i don't even have the creator trophy yet :S

Anyway, i'll think about it.

EDIT: About the name thing.. If it really is a sequel, then "Harder Simplicity" would be the best name, but a stand-alone level with the same setting could have a totally different name though...

Heh, a trilogy.. Hard Simplicity --> Harder Simplicity --> Hardest Simplicity :P Nah that's just pushing it..

Boogaloo
02-20-2009, 01:59 PM
Lol - 'Die Hard Simplicity'

dawesbr
02-21-2009, 03:57 PM
Did I mention I played this again? I had no bugs, but I found secret nr 3...just need to get to number 1!

ThommyTheThird
02-22-2009, 04:44 PM
Woot! This level has been Spotlighted! Oh man, i finally feel that all this work has been paid off.