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Ace
02-09-2009, 04:23 PM
Just had a forum game I made locked.

Basically, for anyone who doesn't visit that section, it was a game where posters basically make up joke ideas for threads, like "Pictures of your back button" or "Favourite 3 letter word".

Just a bit of light hearted fun.

Unfortunately, it was closed on the decision that "It belongs in spam can" (Funnily enough, the decision seems to have made by the creator of the spam can).
Does this mean all forum games belong in spam can? Then why have a whole subforum for them?


To be honest, even though I've not been here long, I've noticed the moderation seems to far too heavy handed and uneven. Why is a thread about bad thread ideas any less worthy of its own topic than (sorry to drag this one in, but I need an example) "Throw an LBP item at the next user"?

I'm not sore at the thread being locked itself, I don't have any real attachment to the thing, but it's the whole vagueness about what is and isn't thread worthy, and how topics can and are closed on a whim without any forewarning, that gets me.


So yeah, this doubles up as a goodbye thread. I've not been here long enough or posted that much for anyone to really care, I'd imagine. The thread locking alone isn't the reason, there's a few things I'm not too impressed by, such as the rep system which seems to breed a sort of elitism (anyone can vote someone down just out of spite, because they know they can hide behind some degree of anomnity).
Then there's the banning of established users because the disagree with a point. I read about the whole SuperPhillip thing, and while I don't agree with how he reacted, he had a point to make, and that should have been looked into, rather than just telling him it's just the rules and he broke them.
There's the whole thing about "respecting the staff". Respect works both ways, as I'm pretty sure I read someone bring up here before, and I don't feel why the staff should deserve my respect more than any other members, just because they happen to have the power to lock and delete topics.

I lurked a while before I even joined, and I didn't agree with some of the goings on, but registered anyway to be part of a LittleBigPlanet community.
Turns out this wasn't the right one, and I'm certain there's other people, new members or lurkers, who feel the same way.
I'm seriously doubting that this community will grow too much bigger than it is. There might be a lot of registrations, but I really don't think you'll see many more regulars.


I've got a feeling this topic will inevitably be classed as flamebait and locked, but I just want to give you some pointers and allow for a bit of civilised discussion about the site before I go, so please show some respect and keep it open for at least a little while.

CCubbage
02-09-2009, 05:55 PM
Well, I for one am going to miss your input. I've enjoyed the info you've posted on my threads.

Comatoes
02-09-2009, 06:11 PM
I'm sure the Spam Can will miss you.

In all seriousness, this thread, in the way it's presented, isn't warranted. I am not kissing anyone's ***, either. This is a general viewpoint I have after being on a lot of forums in my life. If you have a problem with a mod's call on a certain situation, then you should PM that mod with your problem. If that problem cannot be resolved in the private conversation with that mod and you believe the mod is still being "unfair" or whatever the situation may be then you should bring the issue to the attention of an admin.

You're overreacting to something that is not a big deal and in closing, I will say that I have lurked on every single LBP site on the net; this is the best one out there, not just because of user activity but because of the professionalism of the staff. They are involved, have contests, and the mod staff are active so problems are dealt with quickly and by the book.

If you have a problem, then maybe you should suggest the book be rewritten instead of just leaving like a baby. Although I will not, I'm sure there are people here that will miss your presence... as CCubbage has proven, already.

Have a nice day and good luck in whatever you decide to do.

LFF
02-09-2009, 06:46 PM
Hi, just posting on behalf of my bro.

The thread being closed isn't why he left, he was pretty much ready to go anyway. The thread being closed is what tipped him into making this thread.

Yeah, he could contact the staff by PM, but how many people do you think do and have done that, and haven't got anywhere with it?


instead of just leaving like a baby

Hmm, yeah. Leaving is so babyish. Not as much as namecalling though :)

Comatoes
02-09-2009, 07:02 PM
The thread being closed isn't why he left, he was pretty much ready to go anyway. The thread being closed is what tipped him into making this thread.

Yeah, he could contact the staff by PM, but how many people do you think do and have done that, and haven't got anywhere with it?

Maybe a few... maybe a hundred... maybe a couple thousand? Where are you getting your sources? Have you conducted a survey finding out what people's experiences were with dealing with staff privately? I don't think so...

This is just laziness on the user's behalf and posting threads like this are just those users seeking attention; not satisfied with simply leaving with dignity; no, they must stir the bucket before they take their final bow so that they are remembered for a few days.

Big deal.

Anyway, I'm not going to perpetuate your stab at me about the baby comment. I know you're just defending your brother but I will say this: There are a lot worse things I could have said... it's an E-rated forum, after all.

- - - - -

On that note, that's another reason I'm saying this... there are probably a lot of young people on here that haven't really been around forums long enough to know that issues such as this are a complete waste of time and starting a whole thread about it is even more redundant.

I challenge Ace and anyone else that has a problem with the staff to ACTUALLY contact them with their problems instead of starting a thread everytime something doesn't go their way... if you don't the issue resolved on the mod level AND you don't get it resolved on the Admin level, then maybe it's time to start a thread like this but, again, I doubt anyone has gone that far.

Of course, I don't have a reliable source either as I haven't conducted a survey getting feedback on people's experiences with staff but I can pretty much safely say that most users are quick to complain in a public thread instead of resolving something peacefully and in a sophisticated manner in a PM.

:):):):):):):):):):)

LFF
02-09-2009, 07:06 PM
I've contacted the staff about the closure of one of my topics. They were entirely useless in helping me.

The superphillip incident, he contacted them, he did act a bit out of hand, but while you say we shouldn't post these sort of things in here, the staff told him the exact opposite.

:):):):):):):):):):)

CCubbage
02-09-2009, 07:10 PM
Well, as I mentioned above - I'll miss your brother. I found his posts to be intelligent and well-thought-out.

I've been here for about 2 months and, in general, have found the mods and admin to be very helpful and I haven't really noticed a problem with elitism. In fact, a lot of the well-known members here are anti-clique.

I thought I was completely unknown until I got a message on my Splat Invaders game from Aer0blue that said "Hey Cub - great game!".

Of note, I USED to think there was an issue when I first got here, but realised very quickly it was me being paranoid. The key is not taking anything too serious and trying to be helpful to others.

Ace
02-09-2009, 07:30 PM
Well, I for one am going to miss your input. I've enjoyed the info you've posted on my threads.

Thanks! I'm glad I could be of some help.


I'm sure the Spam Can will miss you.

Very classy. I never even posted in that thread.


...instead of starting a thread everytime something doesn't go their way

By every time, you mean once. And as it happens, I haven't contacted staff directly myself, but I know people who have and have got nowhere with it. Maybe a blunt "Because it needed to be locked" or "That's the rules".
Plus there was the SuperPhillip fiasco which I mentioned earlier.


This is just laziness on the user's behalf and posting threads like this are just those users seeking attention

This thread is not about any sort of attention grabbing. If you can't see past that, please just ignore the username next to the post.

It's less attention seeking, I've not even been here long enough to really bother how many people know me, and more bringing things into the open.
Bringing up complaints seems to be a major taboo here, and any threads that do are closed. With, what was supposed to be my last post until I came back to this thread out of curiosity, I was just trying to place down what I don't agree with about the site, and how I think it could be improved.


On that note, that's another reason I'm saying this... there are probably a lot of young people on here that haven't really been around forums long enough to know that issues such as this are a complete waste of time and starting a whole thread about it is even more redundant.

Please don't be so patronising.


There are a lot worse things I could have said... it's an E-rated forum, after all.

I'm sorry you don't agree, and we can both make snarky remarks at each other until the cows come home, but that does nothing to resolve anything.

By all means, we can agree to disagree, but for the sake of everyone's dignity, don't resort to namecalling.



It's hardly that I want to kick the hornet's nest, it's that I see some potential here, and it's a place I wouldn't mind hanging around longer.
Maybe this just isn't the sort of atmosphere I tend to go for in a forum, but I'd have to agree that at the minute this is currently probably the best LBP Board, even if I can't really feel myself getting attached.

I'm not sure if this post really flows well or is even readable, I'm just typing as it comes to me, but I really feel members need more of a voice here without having to resort to private messages. I think there would be some benefit from being more open in the long run.


Anyway, I'm going to bow out for real now. I'm not sure if I'll post again, but I'll try to come back from time to time.

Don Vhalt
02-09-2009, 07:37 PM
Superphillip deserve to be banned.

Mark D. Stroyer
02-09-2009, 07:38 PM
Let me clarify, here:

Here at the LBPC forums, we don't like spam. Particularly entire threads of it. What I saw was you, in the Forum Games section, making up, not just one instance, but numerous threads, most of which came down to complete spam.

The forum games does have some relatively mindless games in it, with ye olde Number War being a good example of it. But even so, there's an actual mechanic and game in there, and it's actually a forum game, despite its simplistic manner. Take a look at the entire Forum Games thread, and you'll see numerous good examples of a forum game.

Now, you had a "Worst Ideas for a Thread" thread. Which was fine by me, even if possibly undeserving of actually being there. However, then things from within that thread, dedicated to "bad ideas" become embodied within the Forum Games itself...I've got a problem, there. I see it as a cheap attempt at a joke, spam at that, and lock it. At which point it is created...again. Which makes me begin to think that you don't get the whole idea, here.

Take a look at this (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=144261&postcount=2). "Pointless threads" are pointless. Allow me to provide an example: I could make a forum game entitled "make a story by banging your head on the keyboard three times". And it would be spam.

Why were the threads locked? Because they were, quite frankly, nothing but spam. Spam is nothing that's useful or constructive. And so we get rid of it when it's in a place where usefulness and constructiveness is desired. And we open up a place where that random energy can be directed, to keep it all within its own context. A la the Spam Can.

We'd really rather you didn't go away, as you've been helpful, as noted by others. But we'd really rather you didn't make blatant spam, either.

Also, the staff is also a lot more open to policy discussion than you might think. (Well, I am, at least.) But the problem is that all too often, policy discussion gets interwoven with drama.

LFF
02-09-2009, 07:45 PM
Let me clarify, here:

Here at the LBPC forums, we don't like spam. Particularly entire threads of it. What I saw was you, in the Forum Games section, making up, not just one instance, but numerous threads, most of which came down to complete spam.

Can I just point out, that was me, not my bro, the OP.

He just posted one topic which imo wasn't really too spammy but w/e.

Mark D. Stroyer
02-09-2009, 07:50 PM
Yeah, I know. I just got the feeling that he was also influenced by those being locked, as well.

Comatoes
02-09-2009, 08:37 PM
Also, the staff is also a lot more open to policy discussion than you might think. (Well, I am, at least.) But the problem is that all too often, policy discussion gets interwoven with drama.

Exactly. I am no saint in this matter, either... as it looks like I couldn't resist the urge to get slightly hostile in this discussion because I've seen this happen, time and time, again.

I was in the wrong and I typed the words "like a baby" which was taken as me calling you "a baby," when all I'm saying is that it's a little childish to leave over such circumstances and in the way you've chosen to leave. "Here's my opinion, I'm right, you're wrong and just to prove it, I'm leaving so I won't have to hear your side of things."

Also, I was wrong in the "Spam Can will miss you" comment as I got you confused with your brother and I'm sure you can see the honesty in that mistake. Again, I will reiterate that it was just a joke as I indicated in the following sentence when I said "In all seriousness..."

Yet, again, I was wrong in making you believe I was being patronizing when I was referring to the younger demographic of this site. I meant nothing by it and I'm surprised you took offense to it since, there's nothing wrong with being young, in the first place.

- - - - -

Anyway, back to the topic at hand... it looks like Mark D. Stroyer has made his stance completely clear and he did it in a calm/sophisticated manner. So, I will end my reply with this final question: Why couldn't this have been solved in a private message? It seems like you could have come to the same end result, without having to leave.

- - - - -

@LFF:
:):):):):):):):):):):):)
:):):):):):):):):):):):)
:):):):):):):):):):):):)
:):):):):):):):):):):):) :p

Hamsalad
02-09-2009, 08:44 PM
I didn't get to see you much Ace because I spend most my days in the spam can but i'll miss you. And also comatoes your right maybe he should've left it to the attention to the mods but its also kind of his fair well.

and also i think maybe you should take your own advice and let the mods handle this one as it already has been. I just don't think you were being very kind and respectful for some one leaving on what he thought was a valid reason

Comatoes
02-09-2009, 09:05 PM
Sure. Here's my public apology to Ace, LFF, and anyone that's been put off by my activity in this thread: I'm sorry.

Whalio Cappuccino
02-09-2009, 09:31 PM
Sure. Here's my public apology to Ace, LFF, and anyone that's been put off by my activity in this thread: I'm sorry.

Hmm, I'm not going to get into this but Hamsalad, Comatoes did a perfectly right thing, the mods are there, but that doesn't mean we can't help does it? Plus, Comatoes put in his own two cents, which I don't see anything wrong with. Anything I'm not going to get into this, Ace does have a valid point, and I'm glad the mods didn't just close this immediately.

I have been here for a while now, and I must admit the moderation is a bit heavy, but it has to be in my opinion. When I had first joined, I don't remember the exact number but it was nowhere near the amount of members we have now, putting it simply; The more members there is, the higher chance there is of having rules broken, or things getting out of hand.

Therefore, I would find it necessary to have a higher amount of mods, and moderation.

One last thing to mention, the Mods are humans too (except aer0blue, he's a robot, but whatever.) They do make mistakes believe it or not.

CCubbage
02-09-2009, 10:49 PM
If someone has had a bad experience it's best to wish them well and give them a good send off - especially someone who has given many good insightful posts in this forum such as Ace. Yes today they may be upset, but if you leave them with a good experience there's a chance they'll be back.

ConfusedCartman
02-09-2009, 10:51 PM
I'd provide my opinion, but Mark did a fantastic job of summing it up, so I'll leave it at that. I'm sorry you don't like it here, but I wish you luck in finding another community that suits your interests.

I'll leave this thread open for further discussion, but please keep opinions civil. :)

Hamsalad
02-09-2009, 11:01 PM
whaaale, i didn't mean to say his opinion is wrong at all; i would never say that but. I just didn't think it was put very nicely I guess now that I think about it thats my opinion. But i tend to be more kind. I would agree if he said he's leaving just give him a peaceful good bye.

IMO there is a difference in just giving your opinion and just being mean or starting a fight when not needed. Maybe there is a thin line there.

[Edit]: Also I agree helping the mods out especially if their not on in the right direction is great go for BUT... I don't really need to keep saying it but I think it couldve been put much nicer and didn't need to be put in a hurtful or disrespectful way.

I was also just trying to help by maintaining respect amongst eachother whether your leaving or not.

aer0blue
02-10-2009, 01:23 AM
There might be a lot of registrations, but I really don't think you'll see many more regulars.

Funny, I often see plenty of regulars logged on and contributing, even ones from way back.

Whalio Cappuccino
02-10-2009, 01:29 AM
Yeah, I wasn't saying it was wrong for him to be mean, I didn't see him being mean though, I also do hope Ace finds a good community since this one didn't suit him, or maybe he'll change his mind and come back, whatever floats his boat.

That's all I really need to say, sorry if I came off as being mean and saying "Screw Ace, he left, he doesn't deserve being here."

Didn't mean that at all.

qrtda235566
02-10-2009, 03:30 AM
I made a thread about "if you had a fish made out of paper, would it be on lined paper or graph paper?" and it got locked! Totally unfair. So wait, does this mean EVERYTHING belongs in the Spam Can?!?

Elbee23
02-10-2009, 07:25 AM
Hmmm... hmmm...

I can see a few issues here, and it's a big complicated mess to sum it all up. I mentioned this in the moderator forums, but I'll modify it and copy it back here:


Hmmm... well, I still think it's a case of him not meaning harm but causing it anyway, like a person waving a baseball bat about in the house for fun, and then breaking a television. The aim was not to break the TV but to just have fun mucking about, but the damage was done anyway. To further increase the analogy, let's say the owners of the house warned the people not to swing the bat before they broke something, yet they continued to do so anyway... well, normally with such an analogy, the person gets into a lot of trouble with the damage being done...

Worst Thread Ideas: The Reiteration is a clone of Worst Thread Ideas, which were both locked for pretty much similar reasons. It sounds to me like the bat was still being swung around, despite being warned and having things explained to them.

The problem was that the threads in question were causing unneccessary posting (spam). It's our job as moderators to try and limit that, that's why we have the Spam Can, so people can let those urges go into one random but controlled place. We don't want to be stopping fun, that's not our job, but it's to try and stop people swinging the bat before they go and break a TV. :(

---

I'll just comment about one more thing from the original post. I was close to SuperPhillip, though I have not met him in real life. I loved his work as a level designer, and loved his questions, feedback and overall sense of humour. I was not a moderator when he was banned.

I was shocked when it happened. Reading through the explanation thread, however, I could see SP acted way out of line. It's one thing to raise an issue or complaint. It's another thing again to insult and swear at people, especially if they are trying to be civil and calm about the matter. That's just not a good thing to do, no matter what the context.

As I've found out from being a moderator, the moderators have a section of the forum where they can discuss different issues that come up, both good and bad. We do bring up problem users, yes, but that's to "stop the bat before it breaks the TV". We do good in there as well, like planning the "Suvrive This!" site contest that is currently running. That's more than just one site members work, a whole team has gone into planning out that and talking about all the issues.

We do listen to the users as well. As a team we have recently relaxed the "double posting" law, which was the main issue of contention that SP had before he went so strange. I responded to someone about the changes in a PM, and I've put it on another thread and in the moderators section to help people know where we are now. Let me just quote that here, I've taken out references to the person who PM'd me and made it a bit more generalised:


We relaxed the double posting laws recently and are no longer automatically penalising users who have double posted. If a significant amount of time has passed and a genuine update has occurred, then you are able to post again without being given a penalty.

That being said, we still do hand out the penalties. If you are just being lazy and repost 2 minutes later with an extra sentence that adds nothing, then we can still as moderators hand out the double posting penalty.

We also have kept the penalty for those that are justing bumping for publicities sake. Take the level showcase thread, for example. If authors just come and bump their thread once a day because it's slipped off the front page and they want to be noticed, rather than responding to a previous post or stating new updates, then that is a good example of when to use the double post infraction.

But if, for example, you wait a day and post with new information about the topic at hand, and don't say "bump bump please reply I'm desperate!!!111!1!!one!" then I don't think people will necessarily frown on such actions.

I hope this helps clarify things for you. Remember as well that though the infraction system itself is automated, the moderators that implement it are human. We COULD give out penalties, or we could just leave a warning which is just a future record but has no immediate penalty, or we could just send a PM. It's kind of up to the moderator as to which one they do. And in almost all circumstances, especially in borderline cases, it gets discussed in the secret moderators forum so we can all see where we stand. Some of the staff are more harsh or lenient than others, but we all have a chance to share our view point.

If a user was to get to the stage where they would be silenced or banned, then that would be definitely discussed by the team. We try and make sure things are fair.

So my point is we do listen to people, and we can be open to change. The staff are a team, and we do discuss the rules and penalties when things are grey. Sometimes it's clear cut when things need to be done quickly, like an advertising bot spamming their goods everywhere gets an immediate ban. But sometimes things are a lot more grey, like making forum games. That's a good chance for the team to discuss and consider various option. :)

---

Ultimately though, it's up to the person as to whether they stay or not. We can't force you to post, and if you don't break the rules, well, we can't/won't necessarily stop you. The rules are there not as anti-fun measures, but to help prevent broken TVs. :)

CCubbage
02-10-2009, 08:08 PM
Well said!

The rules on this forum have made a lot of sense to me since joining. They're in place to make sure everone has a good time - and the problems caused by breaking the rules cause less enjoyment for others - such as needlessly bumping your levels on the showcase thread so that others don't get their levels reviewed or having way too many junk threads in other areas of the forum so that other threads get unnoticed.

In the case of SuperPhillip - I tell my employees "If someone is swearing at you or using lewd language, you do NOT have to listen to that - hang up". I don't think ANYONE has the right to swear or insult the people who are taking their time to create an enjoyable atmosphere for the rest of us.

The forum can be fun and also be organized.

ConfusedCartman
02-10-2009, 08:34 PM
In the case of SuperPhillip - I tell my employees "If someone is swearing at you or using lewd language, you do NOT have to listen to that - hang up". I don't think ANYONE has the right to swear or insult the people who are taking their time to create an enjoyable atmosphere for the rest of us.

Anything I do on this site (new features, behind-the-scenes work, banning, etc) is directed with one personal goal: to make sure as many people as possible are enjoying the site as much as possible. Once someone is rude to me and does so consciously, I no longer care if that person is enjoying themselves. I do not work to make anyone's life more difficult, but I will not spend my time making your life easier if you cannot treat me with a little common decency. In SuperPhillip's case, I went from working to ensure he remained as a member to working to ensure he would not use this site to treat anyone else with the level of disrespect he showed me. I don't expect any more respect than the amount you hold for fellow members, but if you treat me with disrespect and I have not done the same to you, we have a problem. It's as simple as that.

Dimo1138
02-11-2009, 12:27 AM
Well, based solely on my own personal experiences, I have found some of the moderators here to be very helpful, and patient. God knows, my first few weeks here were a little rough. I initially thought the moderation was a bit "heavy-handed", as you put it, but in the end, when looking at the bigger picture, I found them to be very fair, and even a bit forgiving. Don't get me wrong, my message board experience is very limited. This is only the second board I've ever been involved with and the first serious community forum that I've ever participated in, so my opinions may be a bit limited. However, by judging the moderators as people (which, even though you never technically met them, they are people, and most people on the internet are tools) they have been, as I mentioned, helpful and fair, in my humble opinion that is.

RockSauron
02-11-2009, 01:00 AM
Well, I kinda left as well because I don't like LBP as much, but people begged me to stay, but anyway that's beside the point...

My thing is: at another vbulletin site I'm at, we have a forum games forum not count to post count. Now, I know post count is removed from the side, but it's still at the profile page- I dunno, could you just make the forum games forum not count to posts then? Worked ok at the other site...

ConfusedCartman
02-11-2009, 01:01 AM
Well, I kinda left as well because I don't like LBP as much, but people begged me to stay, but anyway that's beside the point...

My thing is: at another vbulletin site I'm at, we have a forum games forum not count to post count. Now, I know post count is removed from the side, but it's still at the profile page- I dunno, could you just make the forum games forum not count to posts then? Worked ok at the other site...
Post count is already disabled in Forum Games. It has been for a while. :)

Killian
02-11-2009, 09:09 PM
Post count is already disabled in Forum Games. It has been for a while. :)

I noticed the "Thanks" button is now disabled as well. Good move.

Madafaku
02-12-2009, 06:38 AM
I didn't get to see you much Ace because I spend most my days in the spam can but i'll miss you. And also comatoes your right maybe he should've left it to the attention to the mods but its also kind of his fair well.

and also i think maybe you should take your own advice and let the mods handle this one as it already has been. I just don't think you were being very kind and respectful for some one leaving on what he thought was a valid reason

Dude your a freaking diplomat!!


Anything I do on this site (new features, behind-the-scenes work, banning, etc) is directed with one personal goal: to make sure as many people as possible are enjoying the site as much as possible. Once someone is rude to me and does so consciously, I no longer care if that person is enjoying themselves. I do not work to make anyone's life more difficult, but I will not spend my time making your life easier if you cannot treat me with a little common decency. In SuperPhillip's case, I went from working to ensure he remained as a member to working to ensure he would not use this site to treat anyone else with the level of disrespect he showed me. I don't expect any more respect than the amount you hold for fellow members, but if you treat me with disrespect and I have not done the same to you, we have a problem. It's as simple as that.

Well said...