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aer0blue
02-19-2009, 12:20 AM
The Prinnies (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g314/KortneyxGaara/Disgaea/Prinny-March.gif) have been hard at work helping me put this together, but it's finally done! After many bugs, mishaps, and everything else you can think of, "Boss Rush!!" has finally been published.

This is a community project/contest put together by our own LBPC creators. It consists of a single level, housing a series of bosses, one right after the other. Race flags have been placed to allow players to reach a high score.

Every boss (except mine) had been scored by 5 judges (these ranging from casual to hardcore players), the highest scoring one earning the title "Final Boss". Which leads me to...

Congratulations, NinjaMicWZ! :)

So go ahead and give it a shot! Do remember that each boss is property of their respective owner (don't you dare give me all the credit...!)! Stay tuned for the next installment in this "series"... The next one will have a better structure, more participants (from what I see so far), a higher thermometer limit, and some other nifty features I won't reveal just yet. ;] It'll be much more polished, trust me.

Click here (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7556) for the original thread, but keep discussion in this one.

King_Tubb
02-19-2009, 01:15 AM
Woohoo!!! Its finally here!

Ill give it a go....first thing tomorrow morning...cause im tired.

If theres a round two, im definitely in.

mrjoeyman
02-19-2009, 01:19 AM
Well as one who has been following this thread from the start, I am glad to see it finally come to fruition. I can't wait to try it out to see the bosses and I want to be the first to congratulate Ninja on his great, (but kind of expected from me at least :) ) accomplishment! I am hoping to be able to take part in the sequel as I learn how to create a boss of my own from the info gleaned in this and similar spawned theads around the site. So congratulations Ninja.

Jaeyden
02-19-2009, 01:51 AM
Suuuuweeett! Heading to try er out right now!

Whalio Cappuccino
02-19-2009, 02:25 AM
Huge Problem!!!

After boss 1, the checkpoints seem to be whacked out.

Boss 2 - Only the 1st and 4th Checkpoint seem to work.

Boss 3 - Only the 1st and 4th, and sometimes the 1st doesn't even work!

Boss 4 - I CAN'T GET TO IT BECAUSE I SUCK WITH ONLY 2 CHECKPOINTS!!


In other news: This level is great.

aer0blue
02-19-2009, 02:27 AM
I'll check it out, Whaaaale.

EDIT: It's an odd bug. Sometimes the checkpoints activate if you jump in front of them, or run back and forth. I'm trying to fix it, maybe spacing them apart a bit more. I even deleted the old ones and replaced them. If all fails, I'll add infinite-life checkpoints.

Whalio Cappuccino
02-19-2009, 02:51 AM
So was it just me or are the checkpoints actually retarded?

aer0blue
02-19-2009, 02:56 AM
My apologies, everyone. :(

Spacing seems to work. It fixed the problem. Weird though, Gilgamesh's checkpoints are all cluttered together and they presented no problems whatsoever.

I'll republish soon.

EDIT: Alright, I republished it. Works fine now. :]

Whalio Cappuccino
02-19-2009, 03:01 AM
Time to wreck. :)

aer0blue
02-19-2009, 03:18 AM
Oh yeah, high-five Whaaaaale, baby! We rocked it.

We challenge another duo to beat our high score. Go on, just try it. Even if you do, we'll take you down right after, anyway.

:)

Whalio Cappuccino
02-19-2009, 03:20 AM
True. Very true. And I might just add, that I was wearing a Waldo costume while we was doing it.

Next time, if there is a next time, it shall be serious.

And the last boss DOES NOT dissapoint, God we lost about all our points on that bad boy.

dawesbr
02-19-2009, 08:21 AM
God, the third, mega-plasma-ball boss is HARD! Unless I'm missing something - at times it is literally impossible - left, you die, right, you die, up, you die, stand still, you die.

I'd love to be in the next submissions!

RickTheRipper
02-19-2009, 08:50 AM
this was very cool, i loved it. kudos to all of you.

the only thing i didn't like was the dark matter at the 3rd boss. i just hate dark matter (when its visible)

uzman
02-19-2009, 09:04 AM
i've never heard of this Boss Rush before... I'm very interested in it. I hope my next boss level get selected for the next installment.:hero:

EDIT - i just tried it. It was frustratingly difficult. I got the lowest score but at least i'm #4 on the high scores. I guess very few people finish that...

Coxy224
02-19-2009, 09:22 AM
I was going to enter this....but I couldn't make a boss :P
Can't wait to see what everyone else has made though! :)

Gilgamesh
02-19-2009, 11:09 AM
Whoa sneaky! I was busy playing GTA4 so I hadn't seen that you'd published this. I'm definitely going to be playing this tonight.

Also, congrats NinjaMicWZ! I'll be sure to take down your boss, mark my words! :p

ThommyTheThird
02-19-2009, 11:44 AM
As long as it doesn't lag, i can kick yo butt Aer0 :P I just need to find Yarbone online and we will smack your score. Anyway, off to be the nr.1 on my own. Had loads of practice with Ninja's entry so...

ThommyTheThird
02-19-2009, 11:55 AM
Boom! Beat bridget's score by 10.000 first try. ANd i found the first boss the hardest :O im such a noob. SRRY BRIDGET!

EDIT: Boom! Just added 2.000 points again ;)
EDIT2: Srry.. my score is now: 77262

King_Tubb
02-19-2009, 02:54 PM
Bridget's boss was almost too impossible. I found myself becoming easily frustrated. when i finally beat it (i had to back-track through the level for more checkpoints), i stickered the wall white and wrote "F U stupid Boss". It wasnt even fun. It has too much health its more tedious than fun.

The final boss was awesome! Props to Ninja. Except for one MAJOR flaw. It got stuck on the back wall and i was unable to reach its final weakpoint under its guns. I wouldve replayed but Bridget's Boss was soooooo stupid that i didnt bother.

Gilgamesh
02-19-2009, 03:22 PM
Bridget's boss was almost too impossible. I found myself becoming easily frustrated. when i finally beat it (i had to back-track through the level for more checkpoints), i stickered the wall white and wrote "F U stupid Boss". It wasnt even fun. It has too much health its more tedious than fun.

The final boss was awesome! Props to Ninja. Except for one MAJOR flaw. It got stuck on the back wall and i was unable to reach its final weakpoint under its guns. I wouldve replayed but Bridget's Boss was soooooo stupid that i didnt bother.

Ouch, harsh. :p

I get the distinct impression my boss is the easiest of the bunch. I didn't want to make a boss that was too complicated for the thermometer limit, and neither did I want to make it too tedious/long to fight.

I probably ended up making it too easy though... I knew I should have put in air-to-sack laser-guided missiles. :p

ThommyTheThird
02-19-2009, 03:45 PM
Really? I found briget's boss the best one of em all. And to be honest i found Gilgamesh's boss pretty hard :O It's just so hard to hit that tiny block without getting hit... I love bridget's boss ;)

Marklin80
02-19-2009, 04:22 PM
I agree that bridgets boss was way to hard but it had a lot of cool features, like the charging of the "impossible to survive death to all attack" and the plasma balls following the walls, it's not a bad boss, it just needs a lot of balancing and tweaking (and a lot of visual improvements) so that it gets playable...
Ninjas boss got stuck at the wall for me too... This seriously needs to be fixed, it's very enervating when you have managed to get that far (After restarting at bridgets boss at least once) and meet a boss that gets stuck after just a few seconds...

ThommyTheThird
02-19-2009, 04:26 PM
Bridget's boss isn't that hard... there's an easy pattern in the "Death to all" attack, and you just have to pay attention and dodge bullets ;)

Coxy224
02-19-2009, 05:52 PM
Meh, I died more than enough times on Bridgets boss but it was still awesome!
Loved the whole level, they were all good bosses.

NinjaMicWZ
02-19-2009, 05:55 PM
It's supposed to get stuck on the wall so that you can kill it. It stays back shooting explosives after you destroy it's 3 front switches, otherwise it moves every 40 seconds. To get underneath, you jump through the plasma when it's down and fire one shot underneath.

Please invetsigate things fully before condemning them. The boss has been published for at least a month by itself and has plenty of names on the scoreboard.

Marklin80
02-19-2009, 06:20 PM
It's supposed to get stuck on the wall so that you can kill it. It stays back shooting explosives after you destroy it's 3 front switches, otherwise it moves every 40 seconds. To get underneath, you jump through the plasma when it's down and fire one shot underneath.

Please invetsigate things fully before condemning them. The boss has been published for at least a month by itself and has plenty of names on the scoreboard.

Ok, i newer realized that it had pauses in the plasma shooting, sorry for that :blush:. I spent almost two double checkpoints on frantically trying to find some way to defeat him after the bombs, so i wouldn't say that i didn't try to investigate it fully, maybe it's a little unclear as tommythethird seemed to have the same problem, or we were both very unlucky (or inattentive :blush:).

NinjaMicWZ
02-19-2009, 07:11 PM
I just played through it with Leonidas 2123... he popped the paint meter underneath before it finished advancing, and I tested it out - you can still jump through the plasma when the front of the boss is pointed straight down and and shooting into the floor. It emits a sackboy and a half's space away from the tip so you just hop right through and try not to run into the spiked wheel, shoot up and pop the one shot.

It is unclear, but it is by no means broken or flawed.

We got 2nd place though :/, and I finally got to see all the other bosses - they rock, and each one had a crazy design. The first one reminded me of Johnny 5 from short circuit, and I like how it was three bosses in one and how each plane made the fight different, it really reminded me of something from the NES. Pringer O (dood!) was a pretty cool design - I thought for a minute that it was a flying paintinator 2x only boss - and it would make a great addition to SEMINAL GEMINI and Kikaiwa :D Bridget's boss is a monster! We only had 1 checkpoint left on that, and the way the "charge" attack was set up was genius.

aer0blue
02-19-2009, 09:11 PM
"Pringer O" was just a simple boss I had laying around in a level once, so I put that it for fun. It's pretty easy, but I like the idea of punishing players if they hit the shields. d: I'll make something cooler next time around.

And to those who are having a hard time with the bosses... Well... They're bosses. Not baddies.

;)

BR2 will be more "balanced", though. So no worries. I'll make a thread for it during this week or the next.

Zommy
02-19-2009, 09:17 PM
sounds fun i wanna try this out

Whalio Cappuccino
02-19-2009, 09:49 PM
Honestly, Bridget's boss is hard. But not impossible, every single attack has a pattern, even that yellow charge up death one. All you have to do is move to the left, right, left, right, left, right, very quickly. And on occasion you'll have a pink paintball flying towards you ( by the way, how did you get it so the paintball goes down then turns towards you, that's awesome )

But all the attacks are possible, you can possibly ace the boss, me and aer0 were in a rush to get the #1 score so we didn't care about our lives. We just wrecked.

Jaeyden
02-19-2009, 10:10 PM
Great job on all the bosses you guys! Took a bunch of photos and uploaded them. That level was really fun, can't wait to see the next installment.

Vanemiera
02-19-2009, 11:27 PM
Can i join the creator group for the "sequel"?

Whalio Cappuccino
02-19-2009, 11:37 PM
Anyone can create a boss, it's not so much a group, it's more of a contest. Anyone can join, anyone can win.

Gilgamesh
02-20-2009, 01:11 AM
Wow, Bridget and NinjaMicWZ's bosses are hardcore. I never got the chance to be killed by the "charge" attack because I always died before. I almost feel bad about having scaled back the difficulty on my boss from its original settings because I thought it was too tough. :p

I somehow expected there to be more bosses though, hopefully Boss Rush 2 will deliver. :)

Bridget
02-20-2009, 06:50 AM
Honestly, Bridget's boss is hard. But not impossible, every single attack has a pattern, even that yellow charge up death one. All you have to do is move to the left, right, left, right, left, right, very quickly. And on occasion you'll have a pink paintball flying towards you ( by the way, how did you get it so the paintball goes down then turns towards you, that's awesome )

But all the attacks are possible, you can possibly ace the boss, me and aer0 were in a rush to get the #1 score so we didn't care about our lives. We just wrecked.

Yes, every attack that the thing does is carefully patterned. Even if it looks rather random..... which was the idea. As with Rave, my oversized doom bot, the attack patterns are partially designed to scare the player into making mistakes.

A couple of hints:

Firstly, pay attention to the purple balls! They seem like the least threatening attack, but they're probably the most dangerous. They key to avoiding them PROPERLY, and thus avoiding other bolts at the same time, is to position yourself properly before jumping over them. Specifically, so you dont jump into a green or blue bolt as you do so. Pay attention to the movement of the boss so you can time this with the green shots.

The green shots are not very dangerous so long as you're watching the movement of the boss itself. They have a specific timing, so keeping that in mind, plus keeping it's movement in mind, will allow you to see where they are going to be flying, and make avoiding them that much easier.

The blue shots are just there to add chaos to the other 2 attacks. They're very simple and just fall like rain.... merely be aware of when they've appeared on screen, and you can deal with them. Dont jump into them, lol.

And finally; the yellow doomsplosion is nowhere near as bad as it looks. Designed entirely to scare the player. I've fought this thing myself about a zillion times already, in the course of testing it, and I dont think I've even once been killed by that attack (yet the others will mash me a decent amount). there is a pattern there, and there's a definite way to deal with it. But that's all I'll say for that one, lol.

Honeslty Im happy with the way the thing came out. It's properly difficult and entirely fair (despite that it may not seem so to some), and drives people crazy. Therefore, my work here is done. Lol. Seriously though, I COULD have made the thing alot harder, like Rave. I just didnt. :p



Honestly, Bridget's boss is hard. But not impossible, every single attack has a pattern, even that yellow charge up death one. All you have to do is move to the left, right, left, right, left, right, very quickly. And on occasion you'll have a pink paintball flying towards you ( by the way, how did you get it so the paintball goes down then turns towards you, that's awesome )

But all the attacks are possible, you can possibly ace the boss, me and aer0 were in a rush to get the #1 score so we didn't care about our lives. We just wrecked.

As for the purple balls, each purple ball the boss fires to the left and right have a switch key on them; they hit the wall, where there's a switch and emitter, and while that shot vanishes, the emitter fires another one down (which has a different key on it), and so on with the floor. It was a pain to do; originally it'd hit the wall, and then like 5 oddly spaced shots would happen, instead of one purple turning into ONE purple like it's supposed to do. Alot of potential uses for this trick.


Also, Ninja, I wanted to say that yours had a really cool look to it. I thought that was pretty neat, most bosses that I've seen so far online tend to look a bit dopey and just animate in my general direction (which fortunately none of the ones in here do). So that was pretty cool. I like shooting down bombs with the paint gun, haha. Except for the part where I miss and explode due to trying to look cool.


Honestly I think this whole thing came out pretty well. I wish we woulda had more people participating though.... 5 of them does seem a tad on the low side. I liked aer0's original idea of a whole lot of them with branching pathways. Hopefully we'll be able to get more people joining in for BR2, so that can be done.

All in all though, whole thing seems good quality, so that's what counts.

Has anyone made any videos of this yet? If nobody has done that yet, I can do it myself, if you want. It seems worth taking a video of the entire stage to post up.


EDIT: Oh bloody hell! I just realized I left visible dark matter in there. Agh, I hate when I forget to fix that. I coulda at least covered it in stickers or something.


Also, I seem to have taken the #1 score for single-player. 83,772. I nearly aced this. I really nearly did. And then MY OWN STUPID MACHINE shot me exactly ONCE. Why do my own machines hate me so much?

Whalio Cappuccino
02-20-2009, 07:14 AM
As for the purple balls, each purple ball the boss fires to the left and right have a switch key on them; they hit the wall, where there's a switch and emitter, and while that shot vanishes, the emitter fires another one down (which has a different key on it), and so on with the floor. It was a pain to do; originally it'd hit the wall, and then like 5 oddly spaced shots would happen, instead of one purple turning into ONE purple like it's supposed to do. Alot of potential uses for this trick.

Ah I see, you've done it almost so perfectly that it seems that it's the same ball, just changing direction, but I probably wasn't paying close attention, kind of hard to focus on the purple paintball when you have to dodge 4 dozen other paintballs lol.

Marklin80
02-20-2009, 07:32 AM
Yes, every attack that the thing does is carefully patterned. Even if it looks rather random..... which was the idea. As with Rave, my oversized doom bot, the attack patterns are partially designed to scare the player into making mistakes.

Maybe you should make all the plasma bolts fly slower, this would still scare the player into making mistakes and he will get time to both dodge, shoot, aim and keep track of all the plasma bolts at the same time. I think your boss is a classic example of over testing, the creator needs to test his level so much that he begins to learn all the patterns and can therefore the really hard parts of the level seem much easier etc, when you then also need to fine tune the boss after how hard it is then this is a pretty devastating combination. If you have some experience of the boss then it's probably pretty easy to defeat, but for the casual player who tries the level only one or two times these patterns get to intricate to learn. Therefore i suggest that if possible you should try to slow the speed of the bolts down.:)

Bridget
02-20-2009, 08:06 AM
Maybe you should make all the plasma bolts fly slower, this would still scare the player into making mistakes and he will get time to both dodge, shoot, aim and keep track of all the plasma bolts at the same time. I think your boss is a classic example of over testing, the creator needs to test his level so much that he begins to learn all the patterns and can therefore the really hard parts of the level seem much easier etc, when you then also need to fine tune the boss after how hard it is then this is a pretty devastating combination. If you have some experience of the boss then it's probably pretty easy to defeat, but for the casual player who tries the level only one or two times these patterns get to intricate to learn. Therefore i suggest that if possible you should try to slow the speed of the bolts down.:)


That was all pretty much on purpose, really. I'd considered the speed before finishing the thing.

It's part of how I make stuff like this.... I do not skimp on the difficulty at all.

The real danger isnt the speed of the bolts. The danger, is getting into a position where you cannot escape. The true key to defeating this thing is to pay attention to everything it does. The green ones might seem to move a little fast, for example, but if you've got an eye on it's movements and timing, it's not too hard to see where those green shots are going to be, and you can avoid getting trapped by them. The purple ones are slow, and the blue ones take long enough to fall. As for the yellow, be sure and stand as far away as possible. Best hint I can give there. Yellow really is actually the easiest to deal with, because it cant trap you, it just isnt gonna seem so.

Also: Dont dodge and fire at the same time. I suggest waiting to fire until the thing starts charging, when there's nothing coming at you and you can safely throw paint at it.

The overall difficulty though, is exactly where I wanted it.

I mean, going into a level like this, players should generally know what kind of difficulty theyr'e gonna be up against. It IS a level fulla just bosses, after all, and also a level that definitely encourages scoring high (and thus a bit of practice). Definitely meant to be played more than once, which seems to be the case for most "boss levels", including my own.

Besides; making difficult stuff is what I do, when it comes to game design of any type. Blame it on the shmup genre :p

Though, this is also why I rather liked aer0's original idea of lots of bosses, but branching pathways. That way they could be grouped by difficulty and such; which I'd sorta assumed would happen when I built mine, but that ended up not being the case, with not enough entrants. Hopefully that can happen in BR2.



Also, to Ninja:

Is your boss supposed to get stuck on the BACK wall? It looks like it's meant to get caught on the FRONT wall so you can zoom underneath that front part and pop that last spot, but the times I've fought it before, it sorta gets caught somehow on the back wall of the arena.... can sorta see it trying to move forward, but it just wont do it. In order to kill it I actually had to leap between the orange shots (dont ask me how I did this) to get under there and finish it.

I'd forgotten to mention that earlier, but playing the level again now reminded me. That's the only problem I saw though.

dawesbr
02-20-2009, 08:12 AM
It's supposed to get stuck on the wall so that you can kill it. It stays back shooting explosives after you destroy it's 3 front switches, otherwise it moves every 40 seconds. To get underneath, you jump through the plasma when it's down and fire one shot underneath.

Please invetsigate things fully before condemning them. The boss has been published for at least a month by itself and has plenty of names on the scoreboard.


I just played through it with Leonidas 2123... he popped the paint meter underneath before it finished advancing, and I tested it out - you can still jump through the plasma when the front of the boss is pointed straight down and and shooting into the floor. It emits a sackboy and a half's space away from the tip so you just hop right through and try not to run into the spiked wheel, shoot up and pop the one shot.

It is unclear, but it is by no means broken or flawed.



Earlier in topic.

Bridget
02-20-2009, 08:16 AM
Well, that explains that....


But what that front thing for? The paint spot to the left, with the little hole you can go into?

dawesbr
02-20-2009, 08:33 AM
I'm going to have to leave that up to someone else, thanks to me not making his boss due to your one!

Wyth
02-20-2009, 08:51 AM
Whoa, this is truly a cool level. Double cool due to it being a community level. It's truly hard though.

The bosses are great although they might be better if they were a bit more decorated (except te final one, looks great) but the play areas are fairly simple, might do with a bit more polish left and right.

Great job aero and the other creators how made the bosses.

mrjoeyman
02-20-2009, 09:22 AM
Maybe you should make all the plasma bolts fly slower, this would still scare the player into making mistakes and he will get time to both dodge, shoot, aim and keep track of all the plasma bolts at the same time. I think your boss is a classic example of over testing, the creator needs to test his level so much that he begins to learn all the patterns and can therefore the really hard parts of the level seem much easier etc, when you then also need to fine tune the boss after how hard it is then this is a pretty devastating combination. If you have some experience of the boss then it's probably pretty easy to defeat, but for the casual player who tries the level only one or two times these patterns get to intricate to learn. Therefore i suggest that if possible you should try to slow the speed of the bolts down.:)


Hate to be a wuss, but I have to agree with Marklin80. As in my own level where I can make it through nearly every time, lots of folks complain that its too hard. But I know that with many battles we can learn how to spank ole sparky just like Bridget does. :)

Bridget
02-20-2009, 09:47 AM
I'm going to have to leave that up to someone else, thanks to me not making his boss due to your one!


You're welcome :P


Keep practicing, you'll beat it.

And then onto Ninja's, which is also pretty hard, lol. Particularly if you dash under it and crash into the spiky wheel like I do.

aer0blue
02-20-2009, 10:01 AM
Hm, I always found Gilgamesh's boss pretty hard for some reason... Can never seem to hit the darn weakpoints when I want to. >_<


I somehow expected there to be more bosses though, hopefully Boss Rush 2 will deliver. :)

Well, that's up to the creators. I have the feeling there will be more bosses in BR2 though, and not just because we might get more people participating...

;)

dawesbr
02-20-2009, 10:11 AM
Please open the new topic! I want to know the restrictions so that I can start building!

Gilgamesh
02-20-2009, 10:22 AM
Hm, I always found Gilgamesh's boss pretty hard for some reason... Can never seem to hit the darn weakpoints when I want to. >_<



Well, that's up to the creators. I have the feeling there will be more bosses in BR2 though, and not just because we might get more people participating...

;)

I see what you did there. >_>

The boss can be tricky, because it's always aiming at you and moving towards you. Staying in place is probably the worst thing to do with my boss, although nowhere near as much as with Bridget's or Ninja's.

Before I forget, props to both for making their bosses multi-phase. I'm going to try to make my boss as awesome as theirs for the next one.

Yes... merge the two toughest bosses together in one... :idea:

ThommyTheThird
02-20-2009, 11:26 AM
Sigh bridget, why did you have to beat my score.. :P
Anyway, really looking forward to BR2 ;)

aer0blue
02-20-2009, 07:22 PM
Well, a BR2 thread has been made. Check it out here (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=151249).

NinjaMicWZ
02-20-2009, 07:45 PM
The box in the left corner is for coward's and slow shooters, Bridget. It's there so that you can pop it open and run in for cover if you fail to hit the 3 switches on the front in time, or if it takes you a little while to kill them. If you don't hit the 3 switches the boss will keep advancing and retreating, but even in the event that a player isn't able to shoot the 3 switches in one turn, or a few... they can still avoid getting killed by hiding in the corner from the plasma shots and the spikes. I have it set up so that a scream sound is triggered while hiding in there.

I originally tried to set it up so that if you got killed by the spikes as it rolled over you, the scream would activate... but I couldn't get it to work without sometimes triggering even if the player didn't die.


Maybe you should make all the plasma bolts fly slower, this would still scare the player into making mistakes and he will get time to both dodge, shoot, aim and keep track of all the plasma bolts at the same time. I think your boss is a classic example of over testing, the creator needs to test his level so much that he begins to learn all the patterns and can therefore the really hard parts of the level seem much easier etc, when you then also need to fine tune the boss after how hard it is then this is a pretty devastating combination. If you have some experience of the boss then it's probably pretty easy to defeat, but for the casual player who tries the level only one or two times these patterns get to intricate to learn. Therefore i suggest that if possible you should try to slow the speed of the bolts down.:)

That's how bosses on NES platformers, and shmup games in general are. You will not beat them on the first play, or probably even on the 10th play. You will have to concentrate and focus until your eyes burst, and look at each failed attempt as practice. Then when you've finally conquered the boss... you realize he has a 2nd form that is even worse, and you have twice as much practice left to do.

We're used to thinking that no level should require hours, days or weeks of investment because of the fast food and single serving mentality of the player base... everything is so accessible, and why should anybody bother mastering one level when they can play a couple hundred others? I think, that if you really want to create a timeless level that the same people will be playing for months - not just new people, but repeat plays - then challenge and a potential or mastery and reward for performance are needed, not just production value, overall quality, and fun. This is the same reason that a great obstacle course and race level is so replayed... because you never have fully conquered it just by getting to the scoreboard.

You have never fully conquered Contra on NES until you beat it without using the Konami code... and even then, can you beat it without dying? That's what makes that game memorable and timeless on top of it's co-op fun, because few people have and can officially hang up the belt and say they truly beat it.

I played this level with Leonidas2123, and he was dodging and weaving around the bullets, shooting and aiming at the same time - it's not impossible, or overwhelming just because some players don't have the required skillset and manual dexterity and aren't willing to improve their own skills. You can't expect a mountain to shrink and become flat ground, you either learn to climb it, or you turn around and go home.

This isn't meant to attack you, it's just my general philosophy on LBP and design... more to do with the idea that levels are rarely built to last, and that catering to the patience of the mass audience is not always the right idea. You should first make levels and creations that you would want to play... and if people like it, great, if not - oh well. Chances are you will get someone who puts as much time into playing and mastering it as you did creating it, and that one person is worth far more than the thousand people who will play your level only once and may rate it badly wether it's easy or not.

dawesbr
02-20-2009, 09:31 PM
You can't expect a mountain to shrink and become flat ground, you either learn to climb it, or you turn around and go home.

Here, here, jolly good show!

In other words, I totally agree. And I have a great idea for a tough boss for next round.

Matt 82
02-20-2009, 10:08 PM
It`s very good, but the second boss was really easy. At one point it started shooting me, then it just stopped and I was free to walk around it picking off the brain points at my lesiure. Felt like I`d done something wrong.

The last one can be a little unclear at times as to what you`re supposed to be doing, however with a boss as complicated as that one it just comes with the territory.

All very well made bosses and an excellent challenge. Well done everyone involved. I suck at making bosses so won`t be attempting to join in the next one, but I will be playing it!

CCubbage
02-20-2009, 11:27 PM
Yeah, this was a lot of fun! I liked the way each stage was such a unique challenge - 1st one was cool, but gave me a false of security, on the 2nd one (Aeroblue's), it took me a minute before I realized I was messing myself up by shooting all over.... Bridget's about gave me a heart attack... and Ninja's was just flat out awesome!

aer0blue
02-21-2009, 01:41 AM
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention.

Ninja, Bridget, Gilg... The judges did submit comments and critique on your bosses. If you would like to have a read as feedback, simply PM me. I'll reply them there.

Bridget
02-21-2009, 06:09 AM
Look up above for quote.



A thanks to you, Ninja, for that well thought out post. Didnt quote it directly here so that this post wouldnt STRETCH the page, haha. Since I tend to ramble.

I, obviously, agree completely, lol.

Being that Im drawing my inspiration from the shmup genre, all of those ideas are going to apply to everything I make. Heck, with this one, I actually HELD BACK quite a bit to keep it from irritating people too much, since it wasnt just a level of my own where I could go berserk if I wanted to.

Sometimes it amazes me as to how things have gotten since the NES days, or the "golden age" of arcades. NES games and such were HARD. And generally, quite unforgiving. When you were beaten, that was it: Game over. You were done. Unless you had a continue code, you HAD to go ALL the way back to the start. And so on and so forth.

But not so these days. So many games give you the option to save or load at ANY time, or dont even count the number of lives you have.... just pushing you back slightly each time you go down.... and there have even been a few where you CANT die, simply because "it might frustrate people!". Or things like regenerating health, or AI buddies that clobber enemies for you. Games have gotten too dang easy, in my opinion. And I, personally, just lose interest in the easy ones. People just dont want to TRY, which always strikes me as sad. Heck, even worse are the ones that will play something, continue like, 35 times before the end, and then think they'd "beaten" the game. Aaaaagh.

But that's not the way I do things. I like to point out one specific boss, from my favorite shmup, Mushihime. The "ultimate" boss, who can not even be REACHED unless you go through the entire game without continuing (a horribly difficult feat, believe me). I got the game, and then a couple of months later I was able to reach that boss. But..... I didnt beat it until a YEAR later. A freaking YEAR. It was that insanely hard (and I wasnt as skilled at that as I am now). Most players would have given up after half a DAY. But I kept at it, and kept practicing.... the process of which also made me better at other things, not just that one game. But the point is, I kept TRYING. Many people these days, they just dont.

My big boss level "Danmaku Rave" was much of the same. I knew full well alot of players might not like it; because it IS really, REALLY freaking hard. I did get some comments about "Oh, this is way too hard, it's like, CHEAP, I cant possibly win, it's impossible!". Which I'd expected. But then there were the others.... Some people from here, such as Ninja, Neverynnal, and a few others, as well as a few that WERENT from here... many of them said that they tried the thing..... and then just KEPT ON trying it, over and over and over and over, until they finally defeated it. And they always sounded so excited once they said they'd won.

THAT is where I get satisfaction from.... that type of player, the ones that will keep fighting, and never give up.... and then are finally rewarded for their efforts when the enemy finally goes down in a blaze of..... uh...... exploding.

I think that's what the whole "Boss Rush" stage concept here, is really all about. Because those old, hard, nasty-cruel games were the types that always did this, the ones that had just one horrible boss of DOOM after another.... and then when you thought you'd FINALLY won..... nope, not over yet!


Anyway, lol, that's my thoughts on the whole thing, really.

That's why I generally never apologize for the difficulty level of things I make. It's always entirely intentional :P

CCubbage
02-21-2009, 04:39 PM
This is an interesting point. I used to be a game designer "back in the day", and there's definately a culture change. However, I'm not sure it's because gamers have necessarily gotten soft - I think it's more because the games have gotten much more elaborate with content and story lines.

For instance, if Pacman was easy and you could continue on for a long time, people would get bored because there was so little content the ENTIRE game was based around the challenge.

Nowadays, games can have so much story and content that people play them sort of like they watch a movie - yes, they're playing, but they are also working through a story. If the game is incredibly difficult it ticks them off because they WANT to see how it turns out.

I think one of the cool things about your specific games is you remove the story - so it WORKS. The entire satisfaction is destroying the boss.

And by the way, back in those days we had to squeeze as much as we could into those little computer brains (many times 16k RAM was all we had to work with) so we didn't really have a choice. We had to lengthen the experience by making it more difficult.

I personally like both - I love the classics, AND I love the modern story-driven stuff.

King_Tubb
02-21-2009, 04:48 PM
Ok i beat it!

So ignore my second post.

Gilga's boss, i dominated, and same with aer0's.
Bridget, i still believe your boss is fricken ridiculous in difficulty, but thats not the point. This time i beat it faster than i did last time (and only 20 lives lost! lmao). I beat Ninja's boss, even though i had no clue how. I killed the three guns the two bomb stacks and then i ran under the guns right next to the "wheel o spikes" and shot aimlessly for about 10 mintues and it died, so i was like...cool, im done. I got a pretty lame score of i think either 1.9k or 9k i forget. Either way this level would be awesome, if had a clue what i was doing. But thats my fault. Ive already decided to join BR2, but i have a feeling that my boss wont be able to lives up to the epicness of any of these bosses, but hey its worth a shot and itll be fun.

Bridget
02-21-2009, 08:10 PM
This is an interesting point. I used to be a game designer "back in the day", and there's definately a culture change. However, I'm not sure it's because gamers have necessarily gotten soft - I think it's more because the games have gotten much more elaborate with content and story lines.

For instance, if Pacman was easy and you could continue on for a long time, people would get bored because there was so little content the ENTIRE game was based around the challenge.

Nowadays, games can have so much story and content that people play them sort of like they watch a movie - yes, they're playing, but they are also working through a story. If the game is incredibly difficult it ticks them off because they WANT to see how it turns out.

I think one of the cool things about your specific games is you remove the story - so it WORKS. The entire satisfaction is destroying the boss.

And by the way, back in those days we had to squeeze as much as we could into those little computer brains (many times 16k RAM was all we had to work with) so we didn't really have a choice. We had to lengthen the experience by making it more difficult.

I personally like both - I love the classics, AND I love the modern story-driven stuff.

Hmm, that's a good point as well. Im guessing a fair amount of players (particularly of RPGs) look at it in such a way.

I personally dont always have the patience for story-driven games. Even if the story is interesting. PARTICULARLY if the rest of the game is then easy. Because then, not only do I have a game that isnt providing me any challenge, I also have one that's making me WAIT to get to the parts with no challenge. I dont do patience, lol.

Which is kinda annoying, because I actually like RPGs, but alot of recent ones are.... well, dull. It's like, ok, you've got random battles and whatever (I know alot of current RPGs dont use random battles these days, but you know what I mean).... but what's the point of random, non-boss battles if the enemies therein POSE NO THREAT AT ALL? If it's an RPG where I can go into most battles, just hit "attack" over and over (or the equivilent), and have no threat of actually losing, Im gonna get bored. Depends on the game though. What's REALLY nice is when you get an RPG like the Tales games, or some of the SMT ones, that let you actually choose a difficulty setting.

I mean, really, why cant more games just have that option? (and make the "hard" settings actually HARD, mind you)

But yeah, if I want an interesting story, I'll go read a book. But for interesting GAMING, to me, it's gotta be more than just a well-animated, flashy book, haha.


I agree with you also on the point of the development of older games. As a child I learned programming back in the wonderful days of DOS, when computers didnt make any sense to anyone, had no memory, no harddrives, and the most simple commands were cryptic as all heck :) And ASCII games.... ASCII games were big back when I was learning that.

Fun times, those..... fun times. :p

CCubbage
02-21-2009, 09:20 PM
Yeah, I was thnking more of games such as Resistance or Bioshock - if you died as often as the classic arcades (in which an average game might be 5 minutes) with no continual save - could you imagine making it through a 15 hour game?

So... I have the classic collection AND the newer games on my shelf. When I need the difficult twitch action, I just pull one of the classic boxes off the shelf or get a game out of the Playstation store.

By the way, Bridget - I found your game nemesis......... FLOWER!!! (Aaaarrrrggg!)

(did we somehow get off topic? Sorry Aer0blue.... back to BOSS RUSH!)

NinjaMicWZ
02-21-2009, 09:36 PM
I think Bioshock, in retropective, suffers as an experience due to it's ease of play... there is nothing lost at all by dying. The PS3 port at least offered up the survival mode, but for all the immensely compelling design, aesthetics, story, beauty, and awesome play mechanics - you just run and gun, and die repeatedly respawning 10 feet from the action and never have to employ any strategy or skill to overcome anything.

I think that was part of it's success, and probably the only reason it's lauded as a great cinematic and narrative experience... because the average person would probably never have gotten to experience the story at all if it weren't made to be so accessible and devoid of challenge, and the typical FPS player with the proper skillset needed to overcome the AI in a less forgiving and more balanced game probably wouldn't appreciate the story or experience. They'd compare it in terms of gameplay and play mechanics to a more action-oriented and polished modern FPS that excells in play. It was a necessity to make it a breeze to play so that it could find it's audience, and is regarded as it should be... but until it provided an optional hard mode that really punishes you - the amazing AI and gameplay was not utilized properly, and anyone who would like both a rewarding challenge AND a rewarding cinematic experience was not catered to. It was stuck in the middle ground as it tried to evolve first person storytelling and role playing, by sacrificing the quality and motivation found in a less memorable and intriguing traditional FPS.

I love the game though, don't get me wrong. Just waxing on the subject.

aer0blue
02-22-2009, 04:35 AM
Testing, 1, 2. What the? I thought I replied to this...??

Anyway, don't go off-topic, guys. Good discussion though. I suggest you take it to the games forums. :)

CCubbage
02-24-2009, 03:51 PM
Are you guys going to do any kind of contest for getting the high score on these "Boss Rush" games? Sounds to me like a natural progression from building them.

Gilgamesh
02-24-2009, 04:14 PM
Are you guys going to do any kind of contest for getting the high score on these "Boss Rush" games? Sounds to me like a natural progression from building them.

I don't know if it would work for Boss Rush 2, considering there are going to be more than one level/path to play on. It would be a bit too difficult to make all paths fair methinks.

Just shoot for the high score to show that you have what it takes. :)

mrjoeyman
02-24-2009, 04:26 PM
Are you guys going to do any kind of contest for getting the high score on these "Boss Rush" games? Sounds to me like a natural progression from building them.


I agree. Seems that overall highest score would be a coveted position and a great motivation to play and win.

ThommyTheThird
03-06-2009, 08:46 PM
Speaking of highscores, reclaimed the nr 1 score on Boss Rush! Wooo, i belong there. Don't take it from me! :D

Bridget
03-12-2009, 07:51 AM
Speaking of highscores, reclaimed the nr 1 score on Boss Rush! Wooo, i belong there. Don't take it from me! :D

.....my score has been outdone?

Hmm, I have to say Im impressed.


Though, I will of course have to try to steal the number 1 spot back from you, hehe :p


Bah, I havent been able to get ON here for like, 6 days, or I may have seen the score list (and numerous other things) a bit sooner.


Still, good job on that one.

uzman
03-12-2009, 12:32 PM
How can i get my creation on Boss Rush?

Gilgamesh
03-12-2009, 12:54 PM
How can i get my creation on Boss Rush?

You go here : http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9034

Better start fast though, there's only a few days left before the next round (assuming there is one).

dawesbr
03-13-2009, 07:18 AM
I finished this with my bro last night. He kept dying, and caused us not to finish in the time limit. I had to kill Ninja's all on my own - My brother didn't take ANY part of him down! I did all the brains and the mortars ON ONE LAST LIFE

ThommyTheThird
03-13-2009, 07:31 AM
.....my score has been outdone?

Hmm, I have to say Im impressed.


Though, I will of course have to try to steal the number 1 spot back from you, hehe :p


Bah, I havent been able to get ON here for like, 6 days, or I may have seen the score list (and numerous other things) a bit sooner.


Still, good job on that one.

Hey, you were the one that took my score away first! :( I was the first one to have quite a big score, and then i saw you and aer0 crush it.. making me mad :D And you're highscores don't like me when i'm mad.

s3xNstilettos
08-25-2009, 07:25 AM
I am having a problem being able to play any of the boss rushes.

First I went to LBPC_BossRush as mentioned in one thread and all of the levels are locked and when I go to access level I don't have the password.

Then I went to aer0blue as you said and they aren't there either.

Could someone tell me how I can play these? Bridget_ recommended them as I like extreme challenges and super bosses, etc, so I am dying to try these out.