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TheMorta
07-17-2014, 10:20 PM
Someone already posted a similar thread, but it was more focused on what should be expanded upon than what should be added.

Now I know that some of this might be a little up in the air considering there's not much time until the game launches, but there's a considerable number of musicians that learned on LBP and continue to use it. The best option for Sumo right now in terms of the Music Sequencer is to make it a bit more realistic to prepare people for real music production. That being said, I'm not talking a complete overhaul. Here are a few points that I think will greatly increase the Music Sequencer's functionality while still keeping it simple enough for most all users to be able to utilize. (At least a little bit. ;) )

1. More effects.
Reverb and Delay were cool in LBP2, but more effects means more possibilities. Just experimenting with phasers in real synthesis gives me an insane result on certain synths. Phasers, Flanger, and simple lowpass, highpass, and bandpass filters would be wonderful. However so many options wouldn't be convenient to select and modify within each instrument's tweaking. Which is why I also propose the following:

2. A track system.
Basically, make each horizontal row a "track," which routes to a master "track." (Much like a mixer if you've ever used one.) Each horizontal space on the sequencer becomes its own track, which you can process with effects, lower the volume of, pan left to right, etc. The advantages of this is that it allows you to add multiple effects, and group-effects, to multiple instruments at once.

3. A simple digital synthesizer.
If you don't understand this bit, I don't blame you. But the folks at Sumo should. In LBP2, us musicians were doing some crazy crap that we didn't know we were doing, simply because Mm renamed a lot of things to be more simplified and practical. I trust Sumo can do the same with a synthesizer if they (pleasepleaseplease) add one.
Not too complex, two or three oscillators, a filter and maybe even an envelope if it isn't too difficult with the Dualshock controller. This would allow for an INSANE amount of things to be done in a simple video game, and really prepare LBP musicians for what lies ahead if they pursue music in real life, even just a little bit.

4. EQ
This is a bit of a long-shot, however it would be insanely useful, (as it's a necessity in real music production) and would be easily done using the PS4 and PS3 controllers.
EQ is Equalization, the process of adjusting the frequencies of your sounds. Basically, if a track system was in place, and that track was mainly your melody, you could put an EQ on that track and then modify the frequencies of your melody.
Now why would you want to do that?
Well it's simple.
We all noticed that when a song in LBP2 had too much stuff going on at once, certain aspects of the song would be drowned out, and disappear. That's because of the natural way in which frequencies react when they clash. They destroy each other. So if you place the power of equalization in the hands of LBP players, you give them the power to give each sound its own frequency "domain" in the song, allowing every single instrument to have its own presence and existence in the song, no matter how cluttered it becomes.

Now I know that all probably sounded like either useless mumbo-jumbo or absolutely insane ideas that Sumo would never even think of adding. But on the off-chance that they DO add a few of these aspects to LBP3's Music Sequencer, LBP musicians would not only be prepared to use a real piece of music software, but have an idea of where to start and what it all means. And I really think that's what Sumo needs to do with LBP3, because the talent that I've seen in LBP2's music community shouldn't go to waste with another lackluster and limiting music sequencer like LBP2. It was a great start, but it's time for something bigger and better. :) Thanks for reading! I hope I didn't bore you to death. Those are my ideas for LBP3 and its music sequencer!

Ciao!

YungDaVinci
07-17-2014, 10:48 PM
Oh man, I was just about to post something like this!
I'm all for this idea.

TheMorta
07-17-2014, 10:56 PM
Oh man, I was just about to post something like this!
I'm all for this idea.

Yeeee! :D I'm glad someone understand what I'm going for here! I've been using Ableton Live for over a year now and only now do I truly understand how limiting LBP2 was. But if Sumo adds these features, it could really be awesome. It MIGHT even want to make me make a gallery or something. ;p

Kaboosh99
07-18-2014, 05:01 AM
I'm not really a huge fan of this thought. LBP is more a game for people who want to have fun with their ideas, not music producers who understand phase cancellation and additive synthesis and stuff. If I wanted to go crazy with envelopes and synths and such, I'd go and load up FL Studio, not a video game.

I have a friend who introduced me to the world of music production, and most of the time he prefers messing about with music on LBP2 rather than a big expensive DAW. Simply because he can focus on his ideas more than mixing sounds together. All the stuff he'd have to worry about in a 'real' mix just don't matter in LBP, and that's something that probably appeals to a lot of people besides him.

I guess I kinda get why you'd want all the advanced stuff in LBP3, but honestly I'd rather have it nice and simple.

yugnar
07-18-2014, 05:22 AM
I like your ideas TheMorta :) I've never played much with electronic music and synthesizers but I've been playing... Uhm... Real (like material and touchable) instruments (again, not that I don't consider electronic music not to be real music) for over a decade :arg: and I love composing, and I believe that LBP musicians should be given soooooo much more tools in LBP3 than what they have today. Specially when I tried to create music in LBP I just found the number of instruments too... Limited. 8)

Anyway, as I was saying I don't understand much of equalizers and stuff but the way you explained it made me actually learn a thing or two. Thanks for that! All of what you're saying makes a lot of sense. Now let's hope Sumo listens and adds a couple of these suggestions to the game :D

Ali_Star
07-18-2014, 11:56 AM
I guess I kinda get why you'd want all the advanced stuff in LBP3, but honestly I'd rather have it nice and simple.

I kind of agree with this. Adding more complication could put further distance between the "elite" music creators, and the more average music creators. I'm a fairly average music creator, I've used a few of my own music in my levels, but I've got plenty more that I haven't published because I just think.... why bother? Nobody is gonna use my music in their levels when there's much better stuff out there.

yugnar
07-18-2014, 01:24 PM
While I understand and agree to some point to the logic of the simplicity of the tools in music sequencers, if we thought this:


I kind of agree with this. Adding more complication could put further distance between the "elite" music creators, and the more average music creators. I'm a fairly average music creator, I've used a few of my own music in my levels, but I've got plenty more that I haven't published because I just think.... why bother? Nobody is gonna use my music in their levels when there's much better stuff out there.

It might be true, but what's the whole point of creating? I mean, if you don't bother creating a level because there are better creators than you out there then we're missing the whole point of doing it! You create 1) For the fun of doing it, and 2)You will definitely get better with practice, getting the grip of new tools as you go.

The same would apply to music. You will most likely not create a Mozart's Eine Kleine Natchmusik in your first try, you will most likely not create stuff with the quality that buddydestruction galleries' bring; but if you put your heart into it you will end leraning the ropes of whatever tool comes into play. I'm not saying them to make them ultra complicated and not user friendly, but I believe the higher the number of tools we get, the better.

TheMorta
07-18-2014, 03:19 PM
Guys, you all had to learn microchip logic. If you didn't realize, that's real logic that real engineers use to craft real microchips. Is this really that complicated? And as I said, re-naming a few things will make it a lot easier to understand. Don't simply say it's too hard to learn without at least trying.

Ali_Star
07-18-2014, 04:20 PM
It might be true, but what's the whole point of creating? I mean, if you don't bother creating a level because there are better creators than you out there then we're missing the whole point of doing it! You create 1) For the fun of doing it, and 2)You will definitely get better with practice, getting the grip of new tools as you go.


Well, personally I only create when I have an idea which might be unique (to LBP at least). I would never try to create a standard platformer or survival level etc, but I see your point.

Kaboosh99
07-19-2014, 01:18 AM
Guys, you all had to learn microchip logic. If you didn't realize, that's real logic that real engineers use to craft real microchips.
Well yeah, but LBP2's logic system is so much simpler than what you get in real life. LBP is a game for everyone after all. Not the best comparison.


Is this really that complicated? And as I said, re-naming a few things will make it a lot easier to understand.
If you put something like a parametric EQ in LBP without explaining why and how you'd use it, nobody without a lot of production experience would bother going through all their sounds to fix them all up. Same with having a synth, same with having a stereo enhancer. Who would sit through a long tutorial about all this stuff on LBP? People just wanna go and experiment with weird effects.


Don't simply say it's too hard to learn without at least trying.
It took me almost a year to figure out what everything in Harmor does. Learning usually isn't hard, it's just time consuming. I doubt a lot of people on LBP are willing to devote so much time to learning music production when they could be playing levels or creating platformers. If people want to learn music production, wouldn't they be better off playing with some DAW demos? They're free and all.. ;)

TheMorta
07-19-2014, 02:50 PM
Well yeah, but LBP2's logic system is so much simpler than what you get in real life. LBP is a game for everyone after all. Not the best comparison.


If you put something like a parametric EQ in LBP without explaining why and how you'd use it, nobody without a lot of production experience would bother going through all their sounds to fix them all up. Same with having a synth, same with having a stereo enhancer. Who would sit through a long tutorial about all this stuff on LBP? People just wanna go and experiment with weird effects.


It took me almost a year to figure out what everything in Harmor does. Learning usually isn't hard, it's just time consuming. I doubt a lot of people on LBP are willing to devote so much time to learning music production when they could be playing levels or creating platformers. If people want to learn music production, wouldn't they be better off playing with some DAW demos? They're free and all.. ;)


1. Logic in LBP2 was the same thing as it is in real life. Sure we didn't have to physically put it together but that's the easy part. We had to do all the thinking, which is the same in music. And people still pulled it off.

2. You quoted to my point of simplifying with a response assuming that it wouldn't be simplified. That's my point. If they'd put a Parametric EQ, (which I'm not even asking for. A simple 3-node EQ would be fine by me) they'd explain what it is, and rename aspects to make it much easier to understand. That's the point I'm making.

3. As I said in my original, many music creators in LBP plan on getting into real music. So what better option for Sumo to take than to make the music sequencer a little more realistic to give people at least a remotely similar experience, (but a lot easier to understand) to a real program. And I've learned Massive, Sylenth, Harmor, and Spire all between spring of last year and now. I'm not saying you're slow or that I'm superman, I'm just saying that it's possible to learn extremely complex things such as these, so if Sumo were to add a MUCH more dumbed down version, with some simple aspects from DAWs but not at all entirely professional yet, (just giving players a taste of a real program) it would prepare many of the players for what they'll be using in the future, and it really won't be that hard to get used to. (If they simplify it properly as I've said.)

craigmond
07-19-2014, 09:26 PM
Even if more complex tools were added, I don't see the fundamentals we already have being lost or harder to work. So those wanting to delve into the deeper end will be able to with all the new additions while the others who want it to remain simple shouldn't need to re-learn anything or feel like it's too complicated, as it would be the same just with additions and slight changes.

But I totally agree that it should be kept simple and not too complex. I love the idea of more complex tools, but the basics should remain as they are. It's already been said that many music makers in LBP may want to go on and make music in the future, but you certainly don't want to be putting off the beginners who are looking for a 'foot in' in that area, or, for that matter, those who aren't too serious about it but just enjoy the simplicity of the LBP music sequencer in making music.

TheMorta
07-19-2014, 09:32 PM
Even if more complex tools were added, I don't see the fundamentals we already have being lost or harder to work. So those wanting to delve into the deeper end will be able to with all the new additions while the others who want it to remain simple shouldn't need to re-learn anything or feel like it's too complicated, as it would be the same just with additions and slight changes.

But I totally agree that it should be kept simple and not too complex. I love the idea of more complex tools, but the basics should remain as they are. It's already been said that many music makers in LBP may want to go on and make music in the future, but you certainly don't want to be putting off the beginners who are looking for a 'foot in' in that area, or, for that matter, those who aren't too serious about it but just enjoy the simplicity of the LBP music sequencer in making music.


Music sequencer and advanced music sequencer? xD

Kaboosh99
07-19-2014, 10:46 PM
Even if you did simplify things I don't think a lot of people new to the game would have the patience to learn it. LBP doesn't really take itself very seriously.

Although if the developers thought things through a lot and did a really good job of simplifying things without straying too far from the LBP 'feel', I'd be fine with that.


And I've learned Massive, Sylenth, Harmor, and Spire all between spring of last year and now. I'm not saying you're slow or that I'm superman...
It took me a while to get through literally every single parameter in Harmor. I actually learnt Sytrus and Massive (which I barely use now) as well in the same period of time, but I'd learn something new every time I opened Harmor. Gotta protect muh pride.

craigmond
07-19-2014, 11:51 PM
Music sequencer and advanced music sequencer? xD

Yeah, I think it should become more advanced and be improved upon. But I don't think it should change the way it is right now, the advancements should be more like tools rather than integrated features you'll need to know if you want to make good music. If you catch my drift?

Also, more reverb options would be great

gdn001
07-20-2014, 01:24 AM
Has anyone suggested the possibility to add one or more vocal tracks from microphone input?

YungDaVinci
07-20-2014, 04:20 AM
Has anyone suggested the possibility to add one or more vocal tracks from microphone input?

No. I've been thinking about though, and I don't think people would be focused on making music with vocals for a level (besides "hey"s in trap music, although they could just add it to the beatbox kit.)

craigmond
07-20-2014, 06:18 PM
No. I've been thinking about though, and I don't think people would be focused on making music with vocals for a level (besides "hey"s in trap music, although they could just add it to the beatbox kit.)

Although, it might not necessarily be to accompany a level. There are songs I make where I'll have lyrics and even add a 'vocal track' using the instruments provided, it'd be nice to have the option of an actual vocal option I think.

yugnar
07-20-2014, 06:28 PM
I'd love to see an improvement in the way we can record voice acting, in LBP2 it sounds too... I dunno, cheesy I guess... And with the mic recording there could be an important improvement in recording's quality.

TheMorta
07-21-2014, 04:41 PM
Guys no matter how you do it, it'll sound bad in a track. I don't think any of you have truly thrown a vocal acapella on top of a song and with no EQ, saturation or compression + parallel FX chains made it sound good and fit well in the mix-down. That's why I suggested everything I did to begin with. If you guys are open to vocal tracks, you're going to need to be open to at least EQ and a track system.

And if they DO legitimately support vocals, (which I doubt they will but eh we can hope) they need to support drivers for USB microphones like Blue's Yeti and Snowball, and Behringer's C1-U. That way we can actually plug in a microphone, (not Sony's awful communications device) and do proper voice-overs, vocals, and what have you.

koltonaugust
07-22-2014, 05:36 AM
Did anyone suggest putting all the features mentioned earlier that are complicated under a tab called 'advanced settings?' I think that would please both parties. Those who want to use it can and those who don't want to don't have to. I'm sure some people would be curious as to try the features out and learn a thing or two, but they won't feel forced.

Kaboosh99
07-22-2014, 09:22 AM
Guys no matter how you do it, it'll sound bad in a track. I don't think any of you have truly thrown a vocal acapella on top of a song and with no EQ, saturation or compression + parallel FX chains made it sound good and fit well in the mix-down. That's why I suggested everything I did to begin with. If you guys are open to vocal tracks, you're going to need to be open to at least EQ and a track system.
I'm starting to get the impression that you think you're better than us, calm down.

Improved magic mouth recordings would be a really welcome change. Being able to have more than one running at once would be neat!

runner21
07-26-2014, 09:37 PM
I agree LBP3 could use an advanced sequencer, along with the standard one. There's no reason to limit one's creativity, so more options the better!

TheMorta
07-26-2014, 09:49 PM
I'm starting to get the impression that you think you're better than us, calm down.

Improved magic mouth recordings would be a really welcome change. Being able to have more than one running at once would be neat!

Why I'm so sorry, Kaboosh. Let me just stow away my knowledge...
Look, I know that I'm not God. I recognize that I have a ton to learn. But generally I know more than most anyone in the LBP community about music. I'm currently tutoring artists like SUPERSONICpsiii, Genasidal, reddog_bar, and possibly iChaosClay if he gets a DAW. They're several of the most respected artists in LBP's electronic music community. So I'm sorry if I'm coming across as condescending, I'm just stating the fact that in order for improved magic mouths to work, you need a decent EQ at least. Or else, no matter who you are, it will sound bad. End of story. :p

yugnar
07-26-2014, 10:11 PM
I had forgotten about this thread lol. Anyway. As cool as this features would be for people who know how to use them and those willing to learn complex stuff... I believe creators can exist without it. I mean, last time I played Buddydestruction's gallery I was blown away. Oh man! The music he managed to create without anything else but the current music sequencer is mind blowing! Actually I tried playing one of your galleries Morta but it froze my PS3 everytime I tried to load it :p

That being said, as I previously stated I'd love to see some new instruments (especially less electroniq-esque sounds), and simple features and new tweaks. I'd love to see the reverb and sustain sound work better, for instance.

TheMorta
07-27-2014, 06:19 AM
I had forgotten about this thread lol. Anyway. As cool as this features would be for people who know how to use them and those willing to learn complex stuff... I believe creators can exist without it. I mean, last time I played Buddydestruction's gallery I was blown away. Oh man! The music he managed to create without anything else but the current music sequencer is mind blowing! Actually I tried playing one of your galleries Morta but it froze my PS3 everytime I tried to load it :p

That being said, as I previously stated I'd love to see some new instruments (especially less electroniq-esque sounds), and simple features and new tweaks. I'd love to see the reverb and sustain sound work better, for instance.

Ahahahah yeah, it had 50 tracks and most were exceedingly detailed. XD I was so tired of the sequencer's limitations, I pushed it to its boundaries. Buddy's gallery is pretty amazing, yeah. But compare it technically to released music and even it is lacking.

Breezy-The-Pro
07-28-2014, 06:21 PM
Someone already posted a similar thread, but it was more focused on what should be expanded upon than what should be added.

Now I know that some of this might be a little up in the air considering there's not much time until the game launches, but there's a considerable number of musicians that learned on LBP and continue to use it. The best option for Sumo right now in terms of the Music Sequencer is to make it a bit more realistic to prepare people for real music production. That being said, I'm not talking a complete overhaul. Here are a few points that I think will greatly increase the Music Sequencer's functionality while still keeping it simple enough for most all users to be able to utilize. (At least a little bit. ;) )

1. More effects.
Reverb and Delay were cool in LBP2, but more effects means more possibilities. Just experimenting with phasers in real synthesis gives me an insane result on certain synths. Phasers, Flanger, and simple lowpass, highpass, and bandpass filters would be wonderful. However so many options wouldn't be convenient to select and modify within each instrument's tweaking. Which is why I also propose the following:

2. A track system.
Basically, make each horizontal row a "track," which routes to a master "track." (Much like a mixer if you've ever used one.) Each horizontal space on the sequencer becomes its own track, which you can process with effects, lower the volume of, pan left to right, etc. The advantages of this is that it allows you to add multiple effects, and group-effects, to multiple instruments at once.

3. A simple digital synthesizer.
If you don't understand this bit, I don't blame you. But the folks at Sumo should. In LBP2, us musicians were doing some crazy crap that we didn't know we were doing, simply because Mm renamed a lot of things to be more simplified and practical. I trust Sumo can do the same with a synthesizer if they (pleasepleaseplease) add one.
Not too complex, two or three oscillators, a filter and maybe even an envelope if it isn't too difficult with the Dualshock controller. This would allow for an INSANE amount of things to be done in a simple video game, and really prepare LBP musicians for what lies ahead if they pursue music in real life, even just a little bit.

4. EQ
This is a bit of a long-shot, however it would be insanely useful, (as it's a necessity in real music production) and would be easily done using the PS4 and PS3 controllers.
EQ is Equalization, the process of adjusting the frequencies of your sounds. Basically, if a track system was in place, and that track was mainly your melody, you could put an EQ on that track and then modify the frequencies of your melody.
Now why would you want to do that?
Well it's simple.
We all noticed that when a song in LBP2 had too much stuff going on at once, certain aspects of the song would be drowned out, and disappear. That's because of the natural way in which frequencies react when they clash. They destroy each other. So if you place the power of equalization in the hands of LBP players, you give them the power to give each sound its own frequency "domain" in the song, allowing every single instrument to have its own presence and existence in the song, no matter how cluttered it becomes.

Now I know that all probably sounded like either useless mumbo-jumbo or absolutely insane ideas that Sumo would never even think of adding. But on the off-chance that they DO add a few of these aspects to LBP3's Music Sequencer, LBP musicians would not only be prepared to use a real piece of music software, but have an idea of where to start and what it all means. And I really think that's what Sumo needs to do with LBP3, because the talent that I've seen in LBP2's music community shouldn't go to waste with another lackluster and limiting music sequencer like LBP2. It was a great start, but it's time for something bigger and better. :) Thanks for reading! I hope I didn't bore you to death. Those are my ideas for LBP3 and its music sequencer!

Ciao!

I just wanted a kazoo instrument, but all of your points are viable. :star:

wally-217
07-28-2014, 11:07 PM
I think LBP3 will expand upon all aspects of the game, including music production. I don't remember playing/seeing any in-game tutorials for music sequencing, so a tutorial for each aspect would be nice for those who don't have outside experience (I have no idea what chromic or pentagonic (?) is or what difference using different keys makes, other than the fact it sounds different). The sequencer shouldn't just be there for music producers but to inspire younger audiences and open up new possibilities for them.

I'd expect an EQ and possibly some vocal samples to use from various genres at the minimum.

RenoTonakai
08-01-2014, 07:08 PM
I'd also like to have new music sequencers, like a guitar sequencer, pixel/chiptune sequencers and improved/other/new sequencers, like the piano, because I can't find myself using the current piano sequencer, since it only sounds like a western piano to me tbh..