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Shiwayari
08-20-2008, 06:39 PM
So I just found this site and when I saw this section, I just had to make a level concept. I plan to make this level, when the game comes out, but there will probably a lot of changes, because I'm not 100% sure what can be done and what can't. I didn't give much thought to detail and focused more on the main idea, so I didn't add any enemies or spawn points. I still tried to make it "playable" (no dead ends) though. If you notice something I overlooked, feel free to tell me.
Now heres the actual level (Someone got a better name than "the wheel" =?):
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9132/lbpleveleu8.jpg
So thats the whole level, probably looks confusing (hope it isn't too "quick drawn" ^^). The basic idea is, you start from the left and have a giant wheel in front of you, which is devided into different rooms. To access these rooms you have to use the lever in front of the wheel to rotate it. Now because it can rotate, everything that is not fixed in one place will just fly around the room when the wheel is rotated. For that theres mechanisms indicated with a red *. These only activate, if the sackboy is in the room that mechanism is in (e.g. using sensors) , preventing non-fixed things to fall around. I didn't really give much thought to how they will be moved though.

As it is round and only one room is not rotated, I'll post images of the different rooms, so you don't have to rotate your monitor ^^ :
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5934/lbplevelp1xs4.jpg
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4303/lbplevelp2rx0.jpg
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6596/lbplevelp3ls3.jpg
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7479/lbplevelp4su4.jpg
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/858/lbplevelp5jf3.jpg
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/5066/lbplevelp6cm2.jpg

Before you read the Walkthrough, maybe you could try to "get through the level" on your own and tell me if it's not to easy/hard.

And a Walkthrough:
Room1:
-Get up through random platform elements and get the green key.
-Use the crane to remove the black block beneath it, which is stuck in another movable block, preventing it from being pushed.
Room2:
-Get up to the green door using the strings with grabable spheres and the moving platforms.
-Push the sphere down to where the poison fog is.
Room1:
-Push the block in front of you to make the sphere roll down to where the red switch is.
Room3:
-Go up the now moving platform and push the black block down the fog.
Room4:
-Get through another part of random platforming to the spring, which is now being held down by the heavy black block.
-Go down to the lower part of the room and push the long block in front of the sphere.
Room5:
-Push the long block from Room4 into the little hole at the bottom (sackboy is too big to fit into there), setting free the balloon with a block attached to it.
-Go up (actually theres supossed to be a platform in front of the wheel which i forgot to draw) and use the spring to jump onto the block that is attached to the balloon.
-Jump to the right and pull the block with the balloon out of the hole its stuck in to make it fly into the corner.
-Go down and carfully jump through the fog to get the blue key.
Room6:
-Wait for the balloon, which is now stuck in the belt and circling around, and jump onto the platform to make it over the poison fog.
-Open the blue door, go up, and defeat the boss. Activate the red switch to make a huge platform in front of the wheel go up and down.
-Leave this room

-Jump onto the huge platform going up and down and jump over the platforms, that are hanging down, to reach the finish.


Personally I love this kind of "labyrinthlike", "rotating areas" and "everything you do will affect something elsewhere" stuff, and I'll probably make more levels with this idea once the game comes out.
Anyways, if theres still questions please ask.

So.. how do you like the level and the general idea?

Noonian
08-20-2008, 06:47 PM
I remember how excited i was when I saw MM's version of the "Wheel"...

and I'm glad you are putting this together...

I like very hard levels...so I look forward to cursing this wheel...:p

DrunkMiffy
08-20-2008, 07:01 PM
Dude, that loooks sooooo complicated.

Nice idea though, I hope it works :)

Marino
08-20-2008, 07:18 PM
Nice to see the Spoiler Tag feature put into good use! :p

Nice level, I won't spoil it for myself, I want to try to figure it out for myself. :)

StrikerBack
08-20-2008, 08:07 PM
That's a very awesome creation! :)

Darth_Spartan
08-20-2008, 08:13 PM
OH this looks like some fun, wheel levels are always fun. Is going to be a timed level. It would be cool it it was.

Linque
08-20-2008, 08:22 PM
I really like the idea, I hope you don't mind me throwing in some thoughts.

The main thing that comes to mind is that you have a clear order that you need to finish the rooms with, but if I understood it correctly, you can freely rotate the wheel from the get-go. This might confuse players as to where to go at any point. There's a few ways around it in my opinion:

1) Have clear indications as to which section the player should go at any point. However, this kind of nullifies the point of having the possibility of turning the wheel with the lever, as you still have to progress linearily.

2a) Have the wheel turn automatically at fixed intervals. For example, when you reach the first (green) key, a timed trigger would be activated, and the player would have X seconds to get out of this section quickly or the wheel would turn with the sackboy inside, potentially killing the sackboy(?).
2b) Instead of having to enter and exit a section, there could be a timer trigger each time you enter a section, and you'd have to reach a certain point in each section in the allotted time. For example, instead of having a green key in the first section, you could have an entrance to section 2 in that point. If sackboy doesn't reach said section in time, the room would be filled with poison fog and death could be imminent.

3) My preferred choice would be to keep the rotation lever in place, but have another lever in each of the 6 rooms. Each lever could open one lock/door/obstacle to the finish line. This way you could enter whichever room at whichever point, so the level wouldn't be as linear as it is now. In addition to this lever system, you could have the key / lock system or the puzzles where you have to enter the rooms in a specific order (ball/poison gas), but these puzzles could just lead to secret bonuses (fluff, etc?), that allow players to get a higher score / gold medal.


These are just ideas that I'm throwing around. Feel free to disregard them if you don't like them. :)

Code1337
08-20-2008, 08:26 PM
That looks really awesome... and hard. I can't wait to play it. Are you going to place any enemies in there besides the big boss?

Shiwayari
08-20-2008, 09:36 PM
@Linque

First, if I get what you mean, I actually intended that it is not clear what to do next at every moment. So you have to kinda go through, observe and see what should be done next for yourself.

1)Well as stated above and by you, this would defeat the purpose of the level.
2a)I don't know how this would stop confusion, but I like the time idea. Though it should not be like a race and still give the player some time to think what to do. Too little time + complex mechanisms = frustrating I guess.
2b)This would also eliminate the "observe and think about what to do next" aspect, as the player would always be where he should.
3)I think it is too liniar too, but one reason for that is that I drew a sketch of that level in like 30mins after having the "wheel idea". Most of the platforming stuff is also completely random "thought up in 1min stuff". Will probably give it more thought when actually creating the level. Now I really like the not too liniar and bonus puzzles stuff, but theres one problem.
The less liniar it gets, the less space there is for one particular mechanism/puzzle and the harder it gets to make complex stuff. But as I don't know how big such a level can be, it could be a problem or not. Maybe even multiple wheels are possible.

Anyway, nice ideas, keep 'em coming.

@Code
I definitely want to have some enemies in there, but I think it'll be hard to make enemies that are not stuck on the wall (e.g. like the pitfall crocodile in one of the vids), as they would also fly around when rotating the wheel.
But I will give it some thought when creating it, as I will to the rest of the level.

As I made this level in about 30min (drawing not included xD), I wonder what will come out of planning out a level for a whole day. That will have to wait till the game is out though, as I don't want to sit in front of a piece of paper with a ****ty drawing on it the whole day ^^.

I think I'm going to make a few levels based on this idea with different difficulties, reaching from easy (maybe Linques idea 1) would be good here) to really hard like "first go through the whole level and observe, then think about how to get through" and having mechanisms that block each other, if activated wrong (with a reset of course).

So.. more feedback & ideas please ^^

stuffstufflbp
08-20-2008, 09:38 PM
looks complicated and very cool. Hopefully you create this I would be in line first LOL
GO MM!!!!! :cool:

Sackboy
08-20-2008, 09:42 PM
can't wait to try it out. looks promising:p

Linque
08-20-2008, 11:54 PM
Alright, sounds good.

One word of advice tho: players usually don't like it when they have no clue about what to do next. Trial & Error in platforming levels is usually not a good idea, so generally you don't want to have situations where a player can get lost, stuck or too confused. Getting stuck is ok only if it's really apparent that there's a puzzle in front of them and they need to figure the puzzle out to proceed. Even then, staying stuck for a long time doesn't really add any value to the experience.

I really like your idea, good luck, hope it turns out well! :)

12454522412412
08-21-2008, 12:05 AM
looks good. good luck makeing it...

aer0blue
08-21-2008, 12:08 AM
A little confusing, but seems like a solid idea. I like!

Code1337
08-21-2008, 12:37 AM
@Code
I definitely want to have some enemies in there, but I think it'll be hard to make enemies that are not stuck on the wall (e.g. like the pitfall crocodile in one of the vids), as they would also fly around when rotating the wheel.
But I will give it some thought when creating it, as I will to the rest of the level.

As I made this level in about 30min (drawing not included xD), I wonder what will come out of planning out a level for a whole day. That will have to wait till the game is out though, as I don't want to sit in front of a piece of paper with a ****ty drawing on it the whole day ^^.

I think I'm going to make a few levels based on this idea with different difficulties, reaching from easy (maybe Linques idea 1) would be good here) to really hard like "first go through the whole level and observe, then think about how to get through" and having mechanisms that block each other, if activated wrong (with a reset of course).

So.. more feedback & ideas please ^^
Do you have a theme in mind for this level? Like is it futuristic, foresty, industrial? Or is there a theme for each part of the wheel?

Shiwayari
08-21-2008, 07:46 AM
I didn't think of any themes yet and don't want to without seeing what it actually looks like. It should also fit to the content of the room, so it could be like a ruin thing for this one, if there is something like that. (Kinda reminds me of the Zelda OoT Forest Temple ^^)

muttjones
08-21-2008, 08:27 AM
your level is similar to a dev level on youtube.

Watch this video at about 2:10 -- YouTube - little big planet comic con gameplay

Your level is similar with your sackboy being inside a massive spinning wheel filled with obstacles but yours looks even more complex. Besides there is bound to be many of these types of levels but yours will be the first :)

Looking forward to it!!:D

docpac
08-21-2008, 11:00 AM
I like this idea. The only suggestion I have would be to integrate a two player aspect. For example, your buddy goes into a part of the wheel while you operate the control. The only way for him to flip a switch to help progress through the wheel would be for you to pull the level and move the wheel to another position. This would release any barrier in the way and lock him in. You could have a bunch of rocks or balls or whatnot blocking the lever he/she needs to reach. It could also be a bit fun locking your pals in a massive wheel or "accidentally" sending him/her to their doom! Hehe ;)

Cartoonguy
08-21-2008, 11:40 AM
that video link muttjones posted looks so cool i really want to play that level. The wheel idea looks real fun i wish you the best of luck and look forward to it being posted in the LBP community section when completed.

Shiwayari
08-21-2008, 03:41 PM
The only suggestion I have would be to integrate a two player aspect.
Now that I read that, it's like.. why..the..hell..didn't i think of that? Well thanks for the idea, maybe I actually wouldn't have thought of it until the level was actually made and got feedback xD. I need to make a note to think of that aspect when making levels in my LBP folder, seriously.

Edit:
About the video: Well the similarities are that it is a wheel.. and that it rotates.. and that you have to make you way through.. But the way I see it, it's more of a pure platforming experience where it is also obvious which way to go. What I want to make is a mix of platforming and physics-puzzle that makes the players think a little.

Stix489
09-19-2008, 02:33 AM
I really love this idea man! Cannot wait to play it! =D

Whalio Cappuccino
09-19-2008, 03:12 AM
I like this idea. The only suggestion I have would be to integrate a two player aspect. For example, your buddy goes into a part of the wheel while you operate the control. The only way for him to flip a switch to help progress through the wheel would be for you to pull the level and move the wheel to another position. This would release any barrier in the way and lock him in. You could have a bunch of rocks or balls or whatnot blocking the lever he/she needs to reach. It could also be a bit fun locking your pals in a massive wheel or "accidentally" sending him/her to their doom! Hehe ;)


This reminds me of a game on the computer, its a mini game called "Shift" your a stickman and you move around the level, and some parts you have to "shift' your character ( basically flips the map around ) and he lands on the ceiling which is now the ground. You get what I mean?

SuperYuper
09-20-2008, 04:27 AM
I think that is a great idea. The only problem is is how are you going to put a boss in their if it is rotating. Maybe you can make it some giant ball with poisonus gas all around except like a fifth of it or something:confused: Well maybe that is why you put the :confused: over it

muttjones
09-20-2008, 04:39 AM
This reminds me of a game on the computer, its a mini game called "Shift" your a stickman and you move around the level, and some parts you have to "shift' your character ( basically flips the map around ) and he lands on the ceiling which is now the ground. You get what I mean?

i love that game! have you played the second one?

Whalio Cappuccino
09-20-2008, 07:21 AM
i love that game! have you played the second one?

No, is it as fun as the first one? Wanna clue me in on the details of where I can play it? Wink Wink ;)

SuperYuper
09-20-2008, 02:47 PM
where can you play the first level:confused:

muttjones
09-20-2008, 03:57 PM
where can you play the first level:confused:

type in shift on google.:)


No, is it as fun as the first one? Wanna clue me in on the details of where I can play it? Wink Wink ;)

its the same basically but the levels are slightly harder. The start is really annoying. It took me ages to figure it out.

panzer3000
09-21-2008, 03:09 PM
thos will be possible but i dont think that you want to put a boss in if the level is going to be rotating all the time, it will be too hard, unless you want to put the boss at the end

Shiwayari
09-23-2008, 04:24 PM
I think it would also be possible to just "fix" the boss at one place with the help of some mechanisms like I'll do with all the other movable things in the wheel. So he would only be set free if you go near him or pull a switch..

Enter Sackman
09-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Wow, this design looks amazing! Big kudos to you on the sheer thought and design work you've put into this! I'm skeptical as to just how well it will work in the end, but after seeing the amount of effort you've put into these initial plans - I have my faith! :P

Hope it works for you, and can't wait to try out the finished result!

FlowersInHisHair
10-04-2008, 05:14 PM
Your level design looks superb. I'd give it a go! I quite like the idea of it not being obvious as to where I should be or what I should do next, as long as there were interesting areas to stumble into and items to collect along the way. Love the idea of tumbling around in a giant wheel with crazy stuff happening all around.

It might also be fun to design a series of smaller rooms that continually rotate. Waiting for the room to rotate into the correct orientation to pull the switch and then getting the timing right to pull a block and open a door would be an interesting way of adding time pressure to a level without actually having a countdown too!

Perhaps one of the rotating rooms could be "submerged" into an area of poison fog so you had to keep swinging around the top of it to survive and make it through...

cmsj
01-03-2009, 06:46 PM
Good to see that someone else is thinking of the same kind of level as me :)

I've knocked up a couple of really really simple and lame rotating circle levels (I only started playing with Create today). My PSN ID is cmsj

How would you control the rotation though? I didn't think a motor bolt could be controlled in fixed amounts? or would the user be responsible for turning a switch on and off at the right times?

NinjaMicWZ
01-03-2009, 06:57 PM
I know exactly what you're going for, and have just never gotten past the brainstorming because I know how much effort it's going to take.

I made a simple minigame race-wheel called Enter: Vertigo, but there was no manipulation of the wheel, save for a grab switch on the material of the wheel itself that changed directions of it as it constantly spun. The only platforming challenging was had in timing jumps and positioning to continue your stride as the wheel carried on. When I took out the grab switch, it actually became more fun and varied to use hanging to get where you wanted as well.

This would be a million times more complex though...

I'm sure with your knack for invention and mechanics you could pull this complex structure off very nicely. The whole problem is wrapping your head around the idea that only one switch can be attached to one motor bolt. Maybe a wobble bolt, and quite possibly a reflexivly timed emitter to replace the instance of one existing switch/wobble bolt connection in the center with another one as each new segment of the wheel is conquered - lol, too ridiculous to plan, would be even worse to create.

Good luck :D

Edit: for the name, can I suggest "6 Degrees of Separation"


...or "Enter the 36 Chambers" (Wu-Tang ref for us older people lol)

Walter-Kovacs
01-03-2009, 10:06 PM
I don't know if you have started working on this yet or not, but I have one suggestion that might be helpful for you. Try to not have it all be one giant object.

I made a level in the beta sort of like this, and it was all one object. The problem is that I ran into the "This object is too complex" warning, which makes editing the object after that difficult. In my first real level(Which Way is Up?) the entire level rotates 4 times. I avoided the one giant object problem by splitting the level up into two objects. The first object is just the base that spins, and the second object has the floor that the player walks on. I got the second part to spin with the first by surrounding it with a frame that was part of the first object, so that it had to move with the first without actually being a part of it.

Good Luck

Takelow
01-04-2009, 07:32 AM
Hi Shiwayari!

I don't know if you have started/continue/have finished your project, but it is a long and hard one!!!!
I have done a giant wheel that share a lot of common point with your overal level design. I think that it could be interesting for you to take a look to my level "Attraction: Wheel of Richness" (by Takelow) and, if you want, contact me in PM or VM for a more detailed discussion ;)
And it is not just free promotion for my level, i really think it could be helpful for your construction plane... ;)

Shiwayari
01-04-2009, 04:12 PM
Nice to see this still alive. I'm currently close to finishing my first level (well, besides the switch level), but I can't finish it until the 1.07 object capture bug is fixed. It was planned as a single level, but came out as part 1 of a series and I'm looking into making this wheel idea the next part. I have not started yet though.

I haven't really thought about how to make the wheel turn in fixed intervals, but I already have something similar set up in my level with a piston. I don't think it's going to be much of a problem.
In the beta, I tried to start with this level and had a rough level sketched out and it worked fine even without fixed intervals.

@Walter-Kovacs
I actually heard of this problem for the first time in the Help forum yesterday. I have encountered "too complicated" objects, but not to a point where I couldn't do anything about it..
Though I already made sure to separate from time to time in my current level. Makes it easier for me to work on certain sections. I think I'll make the frame of the wheel one object and use glue inside the rooms.

@Takelow
I'll check your level out. I'm still thinking about what to put into all the rooms, so some inspiration wouldn't do me wrong.


This project is probably going to take quite some time, seeing as I already work on part one since the release day of LBP. And there's not too much time during non-vacation.

Takelow
01-05-2009, 01:50 PM
Don't get me wrong. The common point between my level and your project is only about the concept of a rotating structure in which the player evolute. My level will not help you in term of content of the rooms. ;)

lionhart180
01-05-2009, 08:51 PM
Hehe, I made a level nearly identicle to this about 2 months ago as my first.

It's called gravity well, (not a typo). I didn't know any concepts like one way switches and multi switches, so once you enter the entire level spins indefedably. The wheel is the first 1/4, but there's a few other things I added in. Check it out and you may get some interesting ideas...

But, if you want to see what extant the gravity flip can go to, after masering the switch system, I made probably one of the most complex switch systems (aside froom littlebigcalculator, ho****nn), involving 2 38~40 way switches hooked up to a 2 way switch that operates one giant massive 90 degree flipping maze like level.

After that is a series of other gravity based challenges, and I urge you to try the first section for ideas, and if you are intrigued as to how I did it, I can draw up some pics as to how it works (PS3 is "inaccesable" right now)

The level is called Eviscration. Or just look up my ID and you'll find it, Lionhart180.

Good luck with your wheel level though, there's lots of interesting tricks you can apply.

For example, when its flipped one way have the level turn red and have a deep alarm go in the background. When it goes other way make it turn blue and have a higher pitch alarm go.

I'll most certainly need to try your level though :D