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View Full Version : Do jumppads and wall jumping hurt creativity?



clarkdef
10-21-2014, 12:55 AM
Hello all, jump pads, wall slide material etc do these elements hurt creativity. Well I actually feel they do, often if there is heavy use of both my mind will just switch off, what are everyones elses opinions?

xxMATEOSxx
10-21-2014, 05:13 AM
I think they actually help creativity. Think of the person who had these great ideas for say, a water level, but didn't like fake water effects of old. Then one day, Bam! Real (fake) water. Sure, people can just spam the same mechanics with those tools, but it is still worth having them.

The more accessible stuff like this is, the more options the average player has to make something creative. I know for me, I'm a lot happier with the stuff I can create in LBP2 with it's simpler premade tools and such, than I was with my LBP1, even if I haven't published much.

The people who are never going to make anything original would be that way regardless, but for the average person, I think they help more than hurt.

Devious_Oatmeal
10-21-2014, 05:20 AM
Hurt creativity? No. Not at all.

There are many ways to creatively use these in levels, they are just a tool.

The problem I believe you are referring to is when a tool is used too much, and used in its simplest form.


What I mean is, when a level doesn't explore the possibilities of these tools and simply uses them to 'reach a ledge'; they seem as if they are just tacked on. Instead of using the tool simplistically, a better alternative would be a fun way to transition the player from point A to B, even if it is just a ledge.

The tool isn't the problem, it's how it's used.

clarkdef
10-21-2014, 07:46 AM
Yes how it's used very true. but say you had to get to the top of a ledge and you were making a fruit themed level, you could either throw a bounce pad down or you could have squishy fruit that bounces you up, one is obviously more creative than the other?

Or say you needed to (in real life) hammer a nail into the wall, you could either use a tool like a hammer or.... You could tie a well shaped rock onto a stick, again one is more creative than the other.

I just played a Halloween level which could of used pumpkins in a creative way, apart from a few creative tries ended up being mostly bounce pads, otherwise the level was well made, and visually appealing.

Devious_Oatmeal
10-21-2014, 08:10 AM
Yes how it's used very true. but say you had to get to the top of a ledge and you were making a fruit themed level, you could either throw a bounce pad down or you could have squishy fruit that bounces you up, one is obviously more creative than the other?

Or say you needed to (in real life) hammer a nail into the wall, you could either use a tool like a hammer or.... You could tie a well shaped rock onto a stick, again one is more creative than the other.

I just played a Halloween level which could of used pumpkins in a creative way, apart from a few creative tries ended up being mostly bounce pads, otherwise the level was well made, and visually appealing.

That is creator choice.

I do get what you mean though. Because the option of using the jump pad/wall jump is there, people decide to go the 'prepared tool' route, which in turn means they do not try to be more creative in getting the player from point A to B by other means.

The thing is though, that if you say that, then the idea with using bounciness would also have to be argued against, as well as any other way to get the player from point A to B.

Let me explain. Let's say the bounce pads did not exist, and we have the players just use bounciness to replace it. Now everywhere you would ever see a bounce pad, there's a material with bounciness in its place.

Now the bounciness materials are as common and poorly used as the bounce pads in some of today's levels. Now, the same argument would have to be about the bounciness materials.

Another example, is if someone made a bounce-pad themselves. Not one that looked like the bounce pads we have now, but one that would be similar to the idea of the 'bounce pad'. Now they copy that, distribute it, and now that item is being used everywhere.

My point being, it's a tool. A hammer is a tool, and a rock on a stick is a tool. If the rock on a stick was more common, you would be saying the hammer is the more creative choice.


Personally, I wouldn't say the pre-made tools hurt creativity. It's the lack of exploration and experimentation of new and fun developments in level building that hurts creativity. If anything, the pre-made tools are there to get a creator started; like the pre-made tools are a rock before they start using those newer and more creative ways of level creating, the hammers.

clarkdef
10-21-2014, 08:41 AM
Yes you get what I am trying to say! I actually meant fruit that compresses, not the bounce material. kinda like the moles in LBP1 that have bouncy tummies. There's an old creator that goes by the name of BIOA or was it BOIA... Anyway look him up, his old LBP1 levels always made me go wow that's smart!

People mostly go the path of less resistance, if there's a convenient way to do something they'll do it.

Also I think there is a way to nail a nail into a wall that is more creative than a rock on a stick, maybe someone could tell us haha.

Rabid-Coot
10-21-2014, 08:56 AM
I am not particularly creative so I'll take any pre-built solution that works and motivates me to carry on over extra faffing around that'll just make be chuck the whole thing.

Devious_Oatmeal
10-21-2014, 09:17 AM
People mostly go the path of less resistance, if there's a convenient way to do something they'll do it.

Which is why I am saying it's simply creator's choice. It doesn't stifle creativity.

Also, there would be the rock (Pre-made tools), a hammer (Simple non-premade tool solution), and then the Slamafijitzer. (Something you'd see out of a Dr. Suess book that slams nails into whatever wall you wish)

I personally like to see people make the Slamafijitzers!

Rabid-Coot
10-21-2014, 12:10 PM
Which is why I am saying it's simply creator's choice. It doesn't stifle creativity.

Also, there would be the rock (Pre-made tools), a hammer (Simple non-premade tool solution), and then the Slamafijitzer. (Something you'd see out of a Dr. Suess book that slams nails into whatever wall you wish)

I personally like to see people make the Slamafijitzers!

Nail gun is the thing you're thinking of.

Devious_Oatmeal
10-21-2014, 05:26 PM
Nail gun is the thing you're thinking of.

I wanted to say nail gun, but it didn't seem crazy enough.

Kyesty
10-26-2014, 07:16 PM
I think the wall slides really added an extra cool touch to the gameplay when they were introduced towards the end of LittleBigPlanet 2. They can be slightly overused in some levels though however that isn't to say they should never be used at all.

Devious_Oatmeal
10-27-2014, 06:54 AM
I think the wall slides really added an extra cool touch to the gameplay when they were introduced towards the end of LittleBigPlanet 2. They can be slightly overused in some levels though however that isn't to say they should never be used at all.

Moderation is the key.

LuisMatheus
10-29-2014, 08:43 PM
Can you get those things without the DC pack? It's been a while since I last played this game.

AcAnimate
10-31-2014, 04:56 PM
Haha, I think you should try my newest level then ''Techbox Woodworks'' it's basically all it is... Jump pads and wall jump... but I don't think it ruins creativity at all... I felt very much creative when making that level.

clarkdef
11-01-2014, 01:10 AM
If you were to compare MMs LBP1 Canyons levels to the typically bounce/wall hop LBP2 level, I would stand back and say the game has gone backwards in fidelity rather than forwards. But yeah you can still be creative, lots of different ways to be creative. Maybe I used the wrong words. I will play your level and let you know what I think!

xxMATEOSxx
11-01-2014, 01:54 AM
So, we're comparing professional level designers to the average joe?

Devious_Oatmeal
11-02-2014, 01:13 AM
So, we're comparing professional level designers to the average joe?

Personally, I hold everyone to that standard for improvement's sake. But ONLY for improvement's sake.



If you were to compare MMs LBP1 Canyons levels to the typically bounce/wall hop LBP2 level, I would stand back and say the game has gone backwards in fidelity rather than forwards. But yeah you can still be creative, lots of different ways to be creative. Maybe I used the wrong words. I will play your level and let you know what I think!

I'd disagree. With the options between so many tools, the levels now have become far more creative. You're pulling a kind of strawman by focusing on the levels with the jump pads and wall jumps. They are levels that use those things in the way you are referring to. Those levels exist, yes, but look at all the levels that don't use them, or use them in creative ways.

Not trying to start an argument or anything, and I sure hope what I typed didn't come off as mean, but hay. Do you personally use the jump pads and wall jumps? If so, then surely the game didn't force you to use them. If not, then there you go! 8D You'd still be creative and have that freedom to be creative, and you chose to do what yuh do.

koltonaugust
11-02-2014, 04:52 AM
Can you get those things without the DC pack? It's been a while since I last played this game.

You can make them with sackbots and microchips. It's much easier to just have the DLC though.

clarkdef
11-04-2014, 08:51 PM
No Oatmeal you are not coming across as mean and I am big enough and ugly enough to take any pushback. I am simply stirring the pot ;) I bet ya a few guys who read this will go back into their levels and now have a slight burden of... Hmmph should I do it like this?

Also as for myself, I do not use them often, but I may oneday. In someway we are both correct.

Devious_Oatmeal
11-05-2014, 07:01 AM
No Oatmeal you are not coming across as mean and I am big enough and ugly enough to take any push-back. I am simply stirring the pot ;) I bet ya a few guys who read this will go back into their levels and now have a slight burden of... Hmmph should I do it like this?

Also as for myself, I do not use them often, but I may one day. In some way we are both correct.

Nope. i is right, u r rong. :mad:


Nobutsrsly.

https://i.imgflip.com/dtl0e.jpg



I don't know if 'correct' is the best term. More like 'there were points made that should be taken into consideration'. Although hopefully, some do read this and see the points and have that moment of questioning their decision on the matter.