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View Full Version : Project: Fluid 360° (Advanced 3D Movement) |Create TRUE 3D Platformers|



Shadenmonk
11-24-2014, 07:00 AM
Project: Fluid 360°Movement
The time for true 3D platformers is almost upon us...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/U%2B21D3.svg/15px-U%2B21D3.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U%2B21D3.svg)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/U%2B21D3.svg/15px-U%2B21D3.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U%2B21D3.svg)
http://i.giflike.com/0hKy80J.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/U%2B21D3.svg/15px-U%2B21D3.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U%2B21D3.svg)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/U%2B21D3.svg/15px-U%2B21D3.svg.png
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U%2B21D3.svg)~>> Version 2.0.1: Here (https://lbp.me/v/qty-25g/trailer?p=1&l=12) <<~
Need 2 more Beta Testers for future updates
Please private message me if interested.

What is it?

Fluid 360° is a project that I am creating which aims to to add a little more depth to the way sackpeeps can platform. With Fluid 360 you are able move between layers naturally instead of jumping between them, meaning you can Create true 3D platformers!
Features, lots of them! (Version 2.0.1)
This project contains various amount of other features rather than just the means to naturally walk between layers. It also contains additional platforming mechanics. (NO DLC Needed!)


Navigation


Highly organized logic to make sure you can configure the settings to your liking.
Notes are available throughout the microchip to help you change settings.
Artistic microchips to give you something pretty to look at. ; )
Nearly every feature of Fluid 360 can be toggled ON/OFF at your leisure giving you ultimate control.
Color-Coated microchips to ensure you find your way to specific settings (and so you don't mess up logic that shouldn't be altered).


Components


Standard Double Jump
Easily leap out of water like an elegant graceful dolphin
Grab onto ledges and hoist yourself up
Push/Pull object naturally between layers
Compatibility with all Power-Ups
FLUIDITY

Coming soon
*Items not listed in order of importance*

- Fluid 360 with Toggle, Oddsock, and Swoop
- Advanced Climbing (Ladders, Monkey Bars, Ropes)
- Gradual velocity decrease when jumping between layers
- Permanent character rotation


Version 2.0 Updates
- Rebuilding the logic from the ground up (organization/efficiency purposes).
- Overhaul of rotation animations for smoother turning.
- Fluid 360 has been moved to a broadcasting chip! (No sackbot needed).
- The Broadcasting chip allows use of all power-ups!
- Compatibility with all (excluding Creatinator and jetpack) power-ups to fix animations and balance of mechanics.
- Fix layer switching bug while grabbing objects with Grabinators.
- Option to disable double jump on/off while using Boost Boots.
- Disable double jump after Hook Hat has been used.
- Sackboy's movement speed has been increased to match his running animation.
- Controller configuration for swimming is changing for a more suitable control.
- Sackboy will now auto-detach from ledge grab when jump is activated.
- Fixing double jump timing after Climbing.
- In/out hanging grab-spots will now be included within the chip (Swing in 3D)!
- Naturally move grabbable object between layers.


Version 2.0.1 Updates
- Fixed a bug that prevented 3D movement of objects picked up by grabinators.



Version 2.0.1 Preview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR1v1O1B1dI&list=PLucPIC4KTRQvzid1Xfg29dtf Bufb4eODf
~>> Version 2.0.1: Here (https://lbp.me/v/qty-25g/trailer?p=1&l=12) <<~
Questions and comments are greatly appreciated. Any features that I have missed that would be a good addition or need to change, please feel free to suggest some.

poorjack
11-24-2014, 07:37 AM
I created a few chips like this for my current level, deciding what kind of movement is best. We still arent there I don't think. The biggest problem is that sackboy still locks to layers, no matter how smooth his transition is, so Super Mario 64 style 3D platforming is still not possible -smoothly- your's shows very smooth movement, but as you have no doubt notice, sackboy phases half way through thin layers behind him, and if you want push to be on, you better forget about it.

Sigh. I'm sorry for coming in here and farting up your thread. Maybe you will find some magic work around. But the layer locking is literally cancer on LBP3 for 3D platforming.

Your animation is very good though. 10/10

Maybe we can get someone from Sumo to read this and just put in a layer locking toggle. If it's even possible.

SteveBigGuns
11-24-2014, 12:33 PM
There is a work around. Characters revert back to being locked to the layers when an in/out mover input signal is not active. Apply 2 more advanced movers. One with a battery of 1% and another with a battery of -1%. No more unwanted layer shifting.

poorjack
11-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Once again, SteveBigGuns is the best of us.

Sorry if I am a morose person in general. I guess I just need to be more optimistic, and think, what would Steve do?

Shadenmonk
11-24-2014, 01:56 PM
There is a work around. Characters revert back to being locked to the layers when an in/out mover input signal is not active. Apply 2 more advanced movers. One with a battery of 1% and another with a battery of -1%. No more unwanted layer shifting.

Awesome Steve, thanks mate. I'll add that momentarily.


Once again, SteveBigGuns is the best of us.

Sorry if I am a morose person in general. I guess I just need to be more optimistic, and think, what would Steve do?

It's fine mate. Although despite the layer locking this is a neat feature to have to add bit of diversity to gameplay provided someone wanted to. :)

Sehven
11-24-2014, 04:13 PM
The biggest problem is that sackboy still locks to layers, no matter how smooth his transition is, so Super Mario 64 style 3D platforming is still not possible-

Since all platforms are going to exist in layers, I would actually consider it a good thing to have sackboy lock into layers when not actively transitioning. In fact, I would probably add logic to force it if it wasn't there by default but I would try to keep it subtle and natural looking if possible. Maybe, instead, I'd add logic to make sackboy center into a layer when jumping into a platform's detection area to make it easier to "stick" a landing in 3d.

I haven't played with this kind of 3d movement yet (it wouldn't fit with my current project), but I would think that you could link a timer to an advanced in/out mover set to positional and wire sackboy's thumbstick into it. That way, it's constantly piping a value for where in the layer sackboy is supposed to be. You'd have to build logic to detect impediments; otherwise, the timer would continue to fill while sackboy is stuck on a wall and he would instantly zip to the location determined by the timer as soon as he got past the wall. Assuming this works (as I said, I haven't tested it on a sackboy) and that the blocking issue can be resolved, this technique could have some advantages. For example, you could teleport sackboy and have him arrive in the exact layer position he was in before teleporting (though that could probably also be accomplished by detecting sackboy's layer position prior to teleporting and then outputting that position to an in/out mover after teleportation).

SEWO97
11-24-2014, 05:46 PM
Ledge shimmy...?

XX_sonicfan_XX
11-24-2014, 05:49 PM
I thought this was going to be a project of a ball of water floating around, doing 360's.

I dunno, maybe have a mario style jump. One jump is normal, second jump is a bit higher, and third jump is a frontflip thats the highest.
Thats asking for a lot, wow...

Shadenmonk
11-25-2014, 11:58 PM
The first version has now been release. go check it out! :)


Since all platforms are going to exist in layers, I would actually consider it a good thing to have sackboy lock into layers when not actively transitioning. In fact, I would probably add logic to force it if it wasn't there by default but I would try to keep it subtle and natural looking if possible. Maybe, instead, I'd add logic to make sackboy center into a layer when jumping into a platform's detection area to make it easier to "stick" a landing in 3d.

I haven't played with this kind of 3d movement yet (it wouldn't fit with my current project), but I would think that you could link a timer to an advanced in/out mover set to positional and wire sackboy's thumbstick into it. That way, it's constantly piping a value for where in the layer sackboy is supposed to be. You'd have to build logic to detect impediments; otherwise, the timer would continue to fill while sackboy is stuck on a wall and he would instantly zip to the location determined by the timer as soon as he got past the wall. Assuming this works (as I said, I haven't tested it on a sackboy) and that the blocking issue can be resolved, this technique could have some advantages. For example, you could teleport sackboy and have him arrive in the exact layer position he was in before teleporting (though that could probably also be accomplished by detecting sackboy's layer position prior to teleporting and then outputting that position to an in/out mover after teleportation).

Contrary to your thinking, it's actually more accurate without the layer locking I find. With layer locking you'll either end in the layer you want or a layer off. 50-50 chance.


Ledge shimmy...?

Ledge shimmy will be similar to vertical ledge grabbing...so YES!


I thought this was going to be a project of a ball of water floating around, doing 360's.

I dunno, maybe have a mario style jump. One jump is normal, second jump is a bit higher, and third jump is a frontflip thats the highest.
Thats asking for a lot, wow...

I could do that but with this project I want to get basic platforming mechanics included in the logic pack. Highly specialized logic of such will not be supported in this project unfortunately due to time.

Sehven
11-26-2014, 12:04 AM
Contrary to your thinking, it's actually more accurate without the layer locking I find. With layer locking you'll either end in the layer you want or a layer off. 50-50 chance.

Interesting. I haven't done any experiments with it yet, but I would have assumed that the 50/50 chance would only happen if you were right in the middle of the layer. I would have thought that if you were 75% in the front layer and 25% in the back, you'd lock into the front layer. Is that not correct? Because that's how I'd want it to be: I wouldn't want it so that you're almost completely off a ledge and still able to stand on it because you're 5% in the same layer it's in.

Shadenmonk
11-26-2014, 12:26 AM
Interesting. I haven't done any experiments with it yet, but I would have assumed that the 50/50 chance would only happen if you were right in the middle of the layer. I would have thought that if you were 75% in the front layer and 25% in the back, you'd lock into the front layer. Is that not correct? Because that's how I'd want it to be: I wouldn't want it so that you're almost completely off a ledge and still able to stand on it because you're 5% in the same layer it's in.

That's more or less how it would be calculated.

You actually don't levitate when 5% off of the layer. Everything looks very natural. I know exactly what you mean and I wouldn't want that weird levitation either. I published the level though, try it first hand and tell me what you think.

Sehven
11-26-2014, 08:27 PM
I published the level though, try it first hand and tell me what you think.

Queued! I'm very interested in this technique. It doesn't fit with my first level project but I want to try my hand at 3d level design for my next project.

Shadenmonk
11-26-2014, 09:02 PM
You won't be disappointed, my friend. :)

Sehven
11-26-2014, 11:37 PM
Very nice! I hope you don't mind a bit of critique?

Sackboy's speed didn't seem to match his animation: meaning it looked like his feet were moving faster than he was. Like he was running on ice or something. It was subtle but it was there.

I think some layer locking may need to be implemented. When I tried to jump in front of the 3D circle to get the prize bubble, I got hung up on the edge of the circle. Perfectly reasonable collision except that the angle the player is viewing from makes it difficult to tell that they're going to get stuck like that so some sort of a helpful nudge into the correct layer. Not necessarily a full layer lock, but, in normal gameplay, when sackboy comes across an obstacle like that, he just sort of automatically layer shifts to get around it. Some sort of detection and in/out mover logic to duplicate that functionality in 3d would be helpful and would make gameplay feel much nicer.

I didn't like that up/down on the left stick went from in/out to up/down as soon as I hit the water. Wouldn't it be possible to keep the left stick mapped to in/out and map the right stick to up/down in the water so that things stay consistent?

Not so much a criticism as a wish: rig up a method so that sackboy can grab and push/pull objects from in front or behind, not just the sides. You'll have to fake it of course since sackboy can't really grab front/back. Something with a rotation tweaker and some animation effects. I haven't played with animation tweaks much yet so I don't know how possible this is.

Devious_Oatmeal
11-27-2014, 12:28 AM
Very nice! I hope you don't mind a bit of critique?

Sackboy's speed didn't seem to match his animation: meaning it looked like his feet were moving faster than he was. Like he was running on ice or something. It was subtle but it was there.

I think some layer locking may need to be implemented. When I tried to jump in front of the 3D circle to get the prize bubble, I got hung up on the edge of the circle. Perfectly reasonable collision except that the angle the player is viewing from makes it difficult to tell that they're going to get stuck like that so some sort of a helpful nudge into the correct layer. Not necessarily a full layer lock, but, in normal gameplay, when sackboy comes across an obstacle like that, he just sort of automatically layer shifts to get around it. Some sort of detection and in/out mover logic to duplicate that functionality in 3d would be helpful and would make gameplay feel much nicer.

I didn't like that up/down on the left stick went from in/out to up/down as soon as I hit the water. Wouldn't it be possible to keep the left stick mapped to in/out and map the right stick to up/down in the water so that things stay consistent?

Not so much a criticism as a wish: rig up a method so that sackboy can grab and push/pull objects from in front or behind, not just the sides. You'll have to fake it of course since sackboy can't really grab front/back. Something with a rotation tweaker and some animation effects. I haven't played with animation tweaks much yet so I don't know how possible this is.

Noticed this stuff as well. Except that the 3D hitting was more of bad placement of the 3D sign.

I think a go-around hit mechanic would be a bit more difficult to make than one would think. From the sides, it'd be simpler, but going back and forth may be a bit harder. I don't think it's necessary and I'd say the feel of the 2D style for LBP having that collision go-around may be why it feels like it might feel better.

The swimming was definitely something I did not like. The method of pressing ⬛ to go down, and X to go up tends to work the best. at least from my experience when playing games with a swimming mechanic.

When I grabbed the ledge, I had to let go and re-grab it really quickly in order for the character to actually be able to jump back up.

Sackboy is also really slow.

Sehven
11-27-2014, 02:37 AM
When I grabbed the ledge, I had to let go and re-grab it really quickly in order for the character to actually be able to jump back up.

Yes, I'd forgotten to mention that along with the fact that you have to jump and let go at the same time. It'd be nice if that was all programmed into one move: you're hanging from a ledge and you press X and sackboy deftly moves up without the player needing to let go of R1. It's a little trickier but you can wire a sequencer into the controllinator to force certain movements and you can temporarily disable the link between the player's R1 button and the one controlling the bot to force them to let go at the right time.

Shadenmonk
11-27-2014, 02:43 AM
Very nice! I hope you don't mind a bit of critique?

Sackboy's speed didn't seem to match his animation: meaning it looked like his feet were moving faster than he was. Like he was running on ice or something. It was subtle but it was there.


I've just changed this as a few individuals have mentioned it as well. Sackboys speed has increase a bit to match the animation.


I think some layer locking may need to be implemented. When I tried to jump in front of the 3D circle to get the prize bubble, I got hung up on the edge of the circle. Perfectly reasonable collision except that the angle the player is viewing from makes it difficult to tell that they're going to get stuck like that so some sort of a helpful nudge into the correct layer. Not necessarily a full layer lock, but, in normal gameplay, when sackboy comes across an obstacle like that, he just sort of automatically layer shifts to get around it. Some sort of detection and in/out mover logic to duplicate that functionality in 3d would be helpful and would make gameplay feel much nicer.


That would be very difficult to implement as It would be a very situational logic that would require external logic to work properly. Also the factor of whether to push sackboy front/back when triggered. If you have a simple idea of how to do it I would love to hear it.


I didn't like that up/down on the left stick went from in/out to up/down as soon as I hit the water. Wouldn't it be possible to keep the left stick mapped to in/out and map the right stick to up/down in the water so that things stay consistent?

Pro:Yes that is possible. That probably would be less of a transition between the land and water. I'll test it out.

Con:It's just felt very awkward for me when I configured it that way the first time. Having to deal with two sticks for swimming on one layer seemed a bit tedious if one wanted to make a underwater section in a level that was focused on dodging obstacles on one to a few layers.


Not so much a criticism as a wish: rig up a method so that sackboy can grab and push/pull objects from in front or behind, not just the sides. You'll have to fake it of course since sackboy can't really grab front/back. Something with a rotation tweaker and some animation effects. I haven't played with animation tweaks much yet so I don't know how possible this is.

hmmm...that would totally be possible. The only tricky part would be allowing only one object to be pulled/push when multiple grabbable object are around sackboy. The only problems that I have found with the animations so far is when you try to override sackboys grab/climbing animation with something else.


Yes, I'd forgotten to mention that along with the fact that you have to jump and let go at the same time. It'd be nice if that was all programmed into one move: you're hanging from a ledge and you press X and sackboy deftly moves up without the player needing to let go of R1. It's a little trickier but you can wire a sequencer into the controllinator to force certain movements and you can temporarily disable the link between the player's R1 button and the one controlling the bot to force them to let go at the right time.

Noted. The ledge grab as of right now is just a state sensor to reset double jump after release. I'll change the grab spots to [not grabbable] when grab spot = [Grabbed + X is pressed]

Thanks for the critique mate! Really wanted to mold this into something suitable for everyone.

Sehven
11-27-2014, 02:56 AM
That would be very difficult to implement as It would be a very situational logic that would require external logic to work properly. Also the factor of whether to push sackboy front/back when triggered. If you have a simple idea of how to do it I would love to hear it.


Simplest way that comes to mind would be a zone sensor apparatus around sackboy. Zones on left/right with impact sensors. Impact detected in left zone AND thumbstick left detected AND left speed 0 = temporarily disable the in/out mover and let LBP's built in layer transitioning take over. If it works, it would be the most natural because you're taking advantage of the game's default behavior. If that doesn't work, I'm sure something could but, as you say, it may be difficult.



Con:It's just felt very awkward for me when I configured it that way the first time. Having to deal with two sticks for swimming on one layer seemed a bit tedious if one wanted to make a underwater section in a level that was focused on dodging obstacles on one to a few layers.

Yeah, that does sound awkward. What about oatmeal's suggestion of X/O for up/down in water. Lots of 3d platformers use that mechanic so it wouldn't feel terribly awkward.


Thanks for the critique mate! Really wanted to mold this into something suitable for everyone.

That would be ideal. With one method that works nearly flawlessly and the community generally agrees upon, it would make picking up and playing any 3d level easier since they'd all feel consistent with one another. Here's hoping your method is perfected and adopted by the community.

[edit] Ooh, I just had an idea! Climable material in 3 dimensions. Use a wall jump tweaker with zero speed and sackboy will just stick to the side of it and can move up/down as if he's climbing. He'll just slide instead of climb but maybe that can be fixed with an animation tweak? It would also require temporarily disabling the in/out mover. Maybe make the wall-slide out of several small pieces and set the wall slide tweaker to be activated only if a player holding R1 is touching it. If those conditions are met, it sends a signal back to the player bot deactivating the Lstick up/down from affecting the in/out mover so they can climb up/down.

Shadenmonk
11-27-2014, 03:12 AM
The swimming was definitely something I did not like. The method of pressing ⬛ to go down, and X to go up tends to work the best. at least from my experience when playing games with a swimming mechanic.

Interesting. Kingdom Hearts has a system like that that tends to work pretty well. I'll test that. that would also do well since hold X at the waters surface gives you a good boost to get back onto land.


When I grabbed the ledge, I had to let go and re-grab it really quickly in order for the character to actually be able to jump back up.

Noted, easy fix.


Sackboy is also really slow.

Fixed.

Thanks for the critique.


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Simplest way that comes to mind would be a zone sensor apparatus around sackboy. Zones on left/right with impact sensors. Impact detected in left zone AND thumbstick left detected AND left speed 0 = temporarily disable the in/out mover and let LBP's built in layer transitioning take over. If it works, it would be the most natural because you're taking advantage of the game's default behavior. If that doesn't work, I'm sure something could but, as you say, it may be difficult.

Sounds like it would work. But not that simple.
You'll have the situation of deciding when the logic should be activated. if you're impacting a wall or an object that shouldn't layer-lock you, you'll need external logic. I'd say it'd be possible with management. But the aim of this project is to keep external management to a strict minimum, or at least until I mold the foundation to a perfected state.




Yeah, that does sound awkward. What about oatmeal's suggestion of X/O for up/down in water. Lots of 3d platformers use that mechanic so it wouldn't feel terribly awkward.
Yeah, i'll have to take oatmeal's suggestion into account.



That would be ideal. With one method that works nearly flawlessly and the community generally agrees upon, it would make picking up and playing any 3d level easier since they'd all feel consistent with one another. Here's hoping your method is perfected and adopted by the community.

Thanks for the support, Sehven, appreciate it.

LJRobey
11-28-2014, 12:32 AM
Really needed this! Definitely queuing and will give feedback once tested! :)

magnumninja
11-28-2014, 03:44 PM
Looks pretty good I'll Try it later after I get home from work today.

Shadenmonk
11-29-2014, 10:47 PM
Might have to put this project on a 3 day delay. My data got corrupted, Yet again!!! But this time I lost everything....

Devious_Oatmeal
11-30-2014, 01:17 AM
Might have to put this project on a 3 day delay. My data got corrupted, Yet again!!! But this time I lost everything....

Hmm... Well since it was published, maybe you can retrieve the published one. Not sure if it deletes the level though if your data gets corrupted.

Shadenmonk
11-30-2014, 02:57 AM
Hmm... Well since it was published, maybe you can retrieve the published one. Not sure if it deletes the level though if your data gets corrupted.

Well actually Oatmeal. I scrapped my old logic and spent nearly 7 hours building the logic from the ground up, which got deleted with the profile. The new logic was more fluid animations with more responsive controls.

I just speed ran the story mode in 4hrs so I got most of my stuff back. I'll have to start over again tomorrow :/

Devious_Oatmeal
11-30-2014, 10:25 AM
Well actually Oatmeal. I scrapped my old logic and spent nearly 7 hours building the logic from the ground up, which got deleted with the profile. The new logic was more fluid animations with more responsive controls.

I just speed ran the story mode in 4hrs so I got most of my stuff back. I'll have to start over again tomorrow :/

Oh man, that sucks dude. Maybe, while this game has its bugs, either backing up profiles or constantly publishing the level to your earth may serve as an additional back-up.

Sehven
12-01-2014, 04:29 PM
Well actually Oatmeal. I scrapped my old logic and spent nearly 7 hours building the logic from the ground up, which got deleted with the profile. The new logic was more fluid animations with more responsive controls.

I just speed ran the story mode in 4hrs so I got most of my stuff back. I'll have to start over again tomorrow :/

Ouch! Good luck.

Btw, you can export your save data from the PS4 system menu (copy to usb storage). I highly recommend keeping a backup of your profile and updating at least once a week or whenever you hit a major milestone you don't want to repeat. I also recommend keeping two backups: you never know for sure that your profile didn't corrupt on your way out of LBP so you don't want to overwrite your previous working backup with a new corrupted one.

[edit] Check this out: http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?93418-Advanced-ladders That would fit really well into your 3d movement, though it requires logic done on the level rather than just on the bot so it couldn't be included in your giveaway bot.

Shadenmonk
12-02-2014, 02:35 AM
Ouch! Good luck.

Btw, you can export your save data from the PS4 system menu (copy to usb storage). I highly recommend keeping a backup of your profile and updating at least once a week or whenever you hit a major milestone you don't want to repeat. I also recommend keeping two backups: you never know for sure that your profile didn't corrupt on your way out of LBP so you don't want to overwrite your previous working backup with a new corrupted one.

Game actually crashed and corrupted data for the 4th time as of today. *facepalm*
My luck I guess. I did have my progress saved on my Earth this time though, Just have to go through the story mode for a 4th time :(


[edit] Check this out: http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?93418-Advanced-ladders That would fit really well into your 3d movement, though it requires logic done on the level rather than just on the bot so it couldn't be included in your giveaway bot.

That would be prefect for this pack as a future feature. I would just need to build the logic so that you would need minimal external logic. All you need is to take a piece of hologram, size it, and tack on a Key Tag to get it to work. I'll add that under coming soon.

I sent you a private message earlier today. check that.

Shadenmonk
12-06-2014, 12:32 AM
Version 2.0 is out! Queue it up!

I just want to give a big thanks to everyone that has given me feedback on this project. It's not perfect yet but it's slowly getting there with your alls help. Big thanks to the Devious_Oatmeal and Sehven for helping me test the movement before I released it.

Sorry about the delay of version 2.0 until 8:00pm :/

Sehven
12-08-2014, 05:57 PM
Sorry I haven't checked in for a few days. I did play the update the day it came out and it's looking pretty nice. I still find it somewhat difficult to stick landings on the further back platforms, but I think that's an inherent difficulty in 3d platformers. It might be nice to have an "assist" that guides players in when they're just one layer off, but that might actually annoy players in some circumstances. Maybe I'm just not very good at 3d platforming.

I forget, had the swimming been updated? Seems to me I still struggled a bit with it. I might have to play it again and see how it goes.

Also, I totally swiped your double jump tech for one of my levels. Well, sort of: I borrowed a few ideas from it to update and improve my existing double-jump tech.

[edit] Just saw a help thread here: http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?93676-A-couple-of-questions that gave me an idea: ramps that you can walk up and down on in 3d (yes, the topic was about top-down, but I like the idea of using it in 3d as well). You can dephsicalize a slide so it won't make sackboy slide at all, but it also won't have any collision, so there would need to be some sort of logic that translates the in-layer position to a height from the ground as well. What do you think?

koltonaugust
12-09-2014, 02:12 AM
I'm not near my PS3 but from the video, it looks awesome!

Rovelius
12-09-2014, 09:54 PM
I wonder if there's a way to add deadzone to the joystick... bit too sensitive to my old joysticks' liking.

eyepet2002
12-12-2014, 05:46 PM
You know, it'd be better if TRIANGLE was to go down. SQUARE and CIRCLE are already mapped to the POPIT and SACKPOCKET. You could also invert the 2 buttons. Also, when L2 or R2 are held, can it disable the inputs for that stick like in non 3D movement?

Devious_Oatmeal
12-13-2014, 07:02 AM
You know, it'd be better if TRIANGLE was to go down. SQUARE and CIRCLE are already mapped to the POPIT and SACKPOCKET. You could also invert the 2 buttons. Also, when L2 or R2 are held, can it disable the inputs for that stick like in non 3D movement?

Triangle is actually already mapped out to the Organizatron and your Quests.

You just need to hold down triangle, whiiiich, in order to dive with the system you just mentioned, you would have to hold down triangle.

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[edit] Just saw a help thread here: http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?93676-A-couple-of-questions that gave me an idea: ramps that you can walk up and down on in 3d (yes, the topic was about top-down, but I like the idea of using it in 3d as well). You can dephsicalize a slide so it won't make sackboy slide at all, but it also won't have any collision, so there would need to be some sort of logic that translates the in-layer position to a height from the ground as well. What do you think?

We really need a way to sense where in the layers the player/tag is. I tried using the output of the Advanced In/Out mover to be used with the perfect solution to make the slope walk look good, but I can only get a 0 or 100 readout. Hopefully, this is just a glitch on the In/Out Mover.

Sehven
12-14-2014, 06:41 AM
We really need a way to sense where in the layers the player/tag is. I tried using the output of the Advanced In/Out mover to be used with the perfect solution to make the slope walk look good, but I can only get a 0 or 100 readout. Hopefully, this is just a glitch on the In/Out Mover.

What about the input? I've barely touched the advanced in/out but the one time I used it was to glitch a thin layer object partially into a thick layer: by feeding a specific percentage signal into the in/out mover, I was able to place it in a specific place. Is that what's happening here, and, if so, can that same signal be used to tell where exactly on the ramp the player is?

Devious_Oatmeal
12-14-2014, 10:04 AM
I was going to have the layer sensor to make the slope by having a piece of flat, unsloped material, then, the sensor would sense (Through translation of logic) how far the player is from the top of the slope. Connect that sensor to a piston that moves in accordance to that sensor, and it lifts as Sackboy gets closer to the edge of the ramp that is highest. So as he moves, the flat plane lifts, thus giving a seamless transition from up and down.


I actually combined it with a follower to move between layers at max speed to always be on-track with Sackboy (You can also limit this movement to specific layers via material and impact), which I figured would effect the In-out mover to where its output would read where it was in the layers, depending on which layers you told it to sense. It doesn't.

Shadenmonk
12-14-2014, 05:13 PM
Sorry about going ghost guys. I've been pretty busy lately and have had minimal time to work on this. A few buddies and I are working on progression towards a game for iOS at the moment. So that's chaining all my time down.

Sehven
12-16-2014, 05:41 PM
I was going to have the layer sensor to make the slope by having a piece of flat, unsloped material, then, the sensor would sense (Through translation of logic) how far the player is from the top of the slope. Connect that sensor to a piston that moves in accordance to that sensor, and it lifts as Sackboy gets closer to the edge of the ramp that is highest. So as he moves, the flat plane lifts, thus giving a seamless transition from up and down.


I actually combined it with a follower to move between layers at max speed to always be on-track with Sackboy (You can also limit this movement to specific layers via material and impact), which I figured would effect the In-out mover to where its output would read where it was in the layers, depending on which layers you told it to sense. It doesn't.

I didn't really follow all of that but it sounds like that could be problematic in multiplayer. What about platforms set to only collide with sackboy and set to follow underneath him. They would stay beneath the floor and would track fast enough that he couldn't land on it in midair. Then, when a ramp is encountered, a mover would lift it based on its position within the layer. You'd have to standardize your ramps for it to work: there'd be a tag that indicates that a ramp is one layer thick and one block high and another to indicate a two layer ramp or a two-high ramp or whatever, but I think it could work. Combine it with some logic to tag individual players and each player can have their own platform that won't affect others. You should then be able to build ramps. If you wanna' get really fancy, you could skip the slides and use the sub-layer trick to build stairs.

julesyjules
12-16-2014, 06:47 PM
I didn't really follow all of that

I don't know if it's an end of year thing but this is how I currently feel about 95% of threads explaining or describing the new logic. I played this level and Stevie Guns 3D giveaway, open the microchip prizes and just stare blankly. I'm not an idiot but I'm starting to feel like the geeks have inherited the (LittleBig) earth.

This works well by the way, smoother than when I played it a week or so ago.

zupaton
12-16-2014, 07:51 PM
I feel like this staring to my circuitry creations every couple of minutes. Sometimes, even if I am sure something isn't complete, I just unpause, cross fingers and test hoping it will darn work. lol
New tools and new options mean more choices to make, more options to solve a problem or create a contraption and exponentially more problems to solve until you get used to them, let alone to remember.

Devious_Oatmeal
12-16-2014, 09:11 PM
I didn't really follow all of that but it sounds like that could be problematic in multiplayer. What about platforms set to only collide with sackboy and set to follow underneath him. They would stay beneath the floor and would track fast enough that he couldn't land on it in midair. Then, when a ramp is encountered, a mover would lift it based on its position within the layer. You'd have to standardize your ramps for it to work: there'd be a tag that indicates that a ramp is one layer thick and one block high and another to indicate a two layer ramp or a two-high ramp or whatever, but I think it could work. Combine it with some logic to tag individual players and each player can have their own platform that won't affect others. You should then be able to build ramps. If you wanna' get really fancy, you could skip the slides and use the sub-layer trick to build stairs.

Oh yeah. xDD

I always forget about multiplayer accessibility. I am more of a 1-player only kind of level maker myself.

But quite right. Just adding the separate tags for each player should fix the multiplayer issue. Either you do your following platform, or have four 'separate' ramps for each player- per ramp, but the rising platforms only collide with just the 1 player. Although, a following platform sounds like it would save on logic and thermo.

But the biggest issue is simply that we lack any way to track a player's position between layers.


I have a question for someone who has a 3D movement chip thing already made. Have you already tried going up a slope of one of the Basic Shapes? Even the slopes facing the player? Did he go up them, or was it like there was an invisible wall?

zupaton
12-17-2014, 12:13 PM
I have a question for someone who has a 3D movement chip thing already made. Have you already tried going up a slope of one of the Basic Shapes? Even the slopes facing the player? Did he go up them, or was it like there was an invisible wall?

I really have to stop looking at forums. Although I have one such, not too advanced thing, I never thought of getting it up a slope and now you mention it I feel the need that I have to check it. lol
At the moment, being a bit dumb, I can't figure out what kind of slopes you mean especially taken in consideration the "Basic Shapes?" mention. If by basic you mean those that are normal material left or right facing, you know the kind of what we always created since LBP1, obviously It goes no sweat and everything else will go.

But if you mean the newly introduced dephysialised sliding slopes that facing towards the screen, located on "Getting around" category, although to my surprise could get up easily there are some minor problems like when going down or trying to jump off them and some major ones such as the collision with sack does not checked in the actual slope but on its absolute rectangular shape. This along with its tendency to glitch making the sack err.. sucked in quite a lot, It makes me feel like any further investigation won't worth it.

Sehven
12-17-2014, 02:23 PM
I really have to stop looking at forums. Although I have one such, not too advanced thing, I never thought of getting it up a slope and now you mention it I feel the need that I have to check it. lol
At the moment, being a bit dumb, I can't figure out what kind of slopes you mean especially taken in consideration the "Basic Shapes?" mention. If by basic you mean those that are normal material left or right facing, you know the kind of what we always created since LBP1, obviously It goes no sweat and everything else will go.

But if you mean the newly introduced dephysialised sliding slopes that facing towards the screen, located on "Getting around" category, although to my surprise could get up easily there are some minor problems like when going down or trying to jump off them and some major ones such as the collision with sack does not checked in the actual slope but on its absolute rectangular shape. This along with its tendency to glitch making the sack err.. sucked in quite a lot, It makes me feel like any further investigation won't worth it.

I tried it briefly. It's clear that you can't rely on the actual slide. It would need to be dephysicalized and logic put in place to emulate a ramp instead. I haven't done much but it seems to me there must be a way to detect sackboy's exact position within the layer and and translate that into a height.

zupaton
12-17-2014, 02:48 PM
I am too sure there will be something like say a highly advanced mathematical calculation that I am quite dumb to know or any simple trick that does not worth the hairs I have to pull to find out at the moment. lol
I am quite sure though it can't bring any new element that might add to gameplay. :D

Sehven
12-18-2014, 01:51 AM
Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best. I've tried everything I can think of to calculate Sackboy's position in a layer and no dice. So then I built physical stairs out of thin material and used the sub-layer trick: feeding signals at various strengths into a positional advanced in/out mover. Then I just walked up and down them like it wasn't a thing.

There are some caveats though. They seem to be slippery: Sackboy wants to slide sideways off of the thin layer objects. The walking animation deactivates when he's on them: perhaps it doesn't register as (touching ground) since it's thin layer. Otherwise, Sackboy climbs up and down them with no difficulty even though he really should get stuck since there's nothing pushing him up.

[edit] I just tried it with thick material and the results are both better and worse. Mostly worse. There's still the sliding but sackboy doesn't switch to the falling animation when going up. He seems to get stuck if you try to run rather than walk slowly and even at its best, the rising is very jerky. With the thin layers it was a much smoother rise: it almost animated like he was moving up a ramp (except for his hands and feet freezing in the position he takes when falling). There's still a bit of a pop from height to height if you go slowly enough but it's much less jerky. Also, he doesn't get stuck even if you run full speed up the stairs. Also, the thick stairs do the graphical glitch where the game doesn't recognize that one is in front of the other so the one behind shows through: kinda' like the decorations used to show through Sackboy in LBP2.

I think this is very promising and I suspect the sliding and the animation can be resolved. Unfortunately, sackboy doesn't register as touching the ground which means he can't jump normally while on the stairs. The double jump kicks in instead but if you double jump and land on the stairs, you can't jump off of them.

I suppose next I should try theck and see how that goes.

Sehven
02-18-2015, 05:22 AM
Dunno' if Shadenmonk is still working on this but I've been working on 3D movement with some people over at LittleBigNetwork.com and we found a way to measure Sackboy's exact position within the 16 layer space. I won't go into it here but you can read about it in the help thread where the amazing one-mad-bunny found the solution. (http://www.littlebignetwork.com/index.php?/topic/26411-calculate-exact-position-in-layers/)

What this has done is allow us to create ramps that can be walked up (dephysicalized slide + invisible elevator that moves up/down based on your layer depth), a lock on ability that will keep your Sackboy facing an enemy, and projectiles that will have their in/out speed and right/left speed calculated based on a target's distance in 3D rather than just their 2D distance.

I also added an in/out momentum function so that Sackboy doesn't just stop in/out movement when you deadstick in mid-air. Surprisingly, this made it easier to jump onto platforms: I guess I kept expecting to have momentum and the lack of it was throwing me off. Here's the description I wrote on the other site:

My solution was to use an OR loop. That's where you plug a signal into an OR and plug the OR's output into its other input. It will continue to output the strongest signal it's received forever. Rather than wire the output directly into the input, however, I hooked the output to an AND with a battery set to 90% and set the AND to multiply inputs. Then the output of that goes into the OR. The result is that once the signal to the OR stops, the logic will send 90% of whatever that signal was into it, which will then be multiplied by 90% again until it eventually cycles down to nothing. I also used a positional sequencer to break the loop once it got below a certain percentage because otherwise, it would keep cycling down more and more slowly (100-10%=90; 90-10%=81; and so on: it takes less off on each cycle). This way, if you're going full speed when you let go of the stick, you naturally have more momentum and take longer to slow down. If you're going slower, you have less momentum and it dies down more quickly.

And my latest 3D work is on a sword. Since a blaster handle powerup doesn't rotate with Sackboy, my efforts to build a sword from decos yielded results that looked an awful lot like a cheese knife with a book corner and a stick attached to the handle, and SD was kind enough to give us sword animations for Sackboy's LEFT hand while every. single. costume sword is stuck to his right hand, I finally decided to just use 24 pieces of sticker material with a sword sticker on each at 15 degree increments and create swinging animations the hard way. It's actually working pretty well, though there were some arithmetic complications that took some time to resolve.