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  1. L1N3R1D3R's Avatar
    I know this is a very late post, but this can be used to make a vertical sponge grab chain in LBP1!
  2. toast's Avatar
    i have no clue what this means.. o.o
    but i sure am going to play around with a few of these logics xD
  3. killerbrainbow's Avatar
    this makes no sence O.O
  4. pivottt's Avatar
    Gaaaaaah 8(ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ)

    This is... Greaaaat! Mmm, i'll look back at my divider (which I didn't build), cause I'm not sure it's accurate. Is yours 100% accurate ? No, cause it uses timers. Right ? I hate the fact that timers aren't precise...
  5. arronleach's Avatar
    im making a new film and it will probaly get to cool levels so just incase im telling everybody to play it i know that your thinking its noobish anyway it will be published in 2 days called the 5 most random youtube videos
  6. hillie's Avatar
    Oh yes, I had forgotten about that type of motion. you mean the type that gets slows to a smooth stop as it reaches it's destination?

    I see your point about the sinewave movement. although if the enemies lifespan is limited (lol) it might not be a big deal.

    The triangle, etc. waves though are accurate to where it wouldn't pose a problem right?
  7. rtm223's Avatar
    Well, sackbots don't really go with top-down stuff too well

    For generating SHM in more flexible scenarios, I would probably consider some form of feedback loop, based upon the fact that acceleration is proportional to distance - so have a tag sensor feeding into a mover / follower using distance to generate a strength scale signal, working on the assumption that "strength" = force (which I've never properly tested), and f=ma, where m is fixed.


    The problems with all such things, is that it's very difficult to get any kind of assurance that your system won't drift over time. If you generate a sine wave in an analogue signal and use that as a speed input (given that differentiation of velocity to give distance with sine gives a cos function) then it's hard to ensure there is no slight DC bias, that will cause you center position to drift one way or another. In the method I describe, this kind of drift shouldn't occur because you have a reference point in the world, but it's more than likely the amplitude of your position from the reference point may drift.

    Both effects come from the fact that you a) it's pretty hard to generate a sine wave accurately and b) you can't generate target positions from it without using some kind of fuzzy maths that relies on the previous position to generate a new position and thus errors can be compounded over time.
    Updated 03-23-2011 at 11:54 PM by rtm223
  8. hillie's Avatar
    simple harmonic motion?

    I can think of a few situations where bolts/pistons/etc. may be limiting, such as Sackbot logic. If you want to do a certain pattern until the player is sensed. I have only used the "patrol" behavior in the tutorial for behaviors so I haven't really used it but it seems like it's possible that you might want a sackbot to do more than just that. especially in top-down situations?

    How does the logic for waveforms compare to having a piston/bolt with hologram etc. when it comes to the thermo?
  9. rtm223's Avatar
    Generating periodic waveforms in analogue systems isn't that useful in lbp. If you want shm in the physics of the game then pistons, bolts and rotators are far better for creating such motion as they do it inherently anyway.
  10. hillie's Avatar
    waveforms not useful for gameplay? dude. Sine wave motion is one of the classic ways that was used for all kinds of things in games, still is probably. It can be used for enemy movement patterns. I'm pretty sure it's how they make the waves go up and down in the game (LBP2). Lots of usefulness there. so thanks for posting this!

    Also moving enemies/objects in circles (using 2 sine waves).
  11. rtm223's Avatar
    Oh my gawd, I have to think back a fair way for this one... It's all about the electronics in LBP2 now

    You've got your switches set to on/off, when they should be directional - what you are after is for the winch to pull in when the switch is "on".

    The backwards setting for the winch simply inverts it. So normally, when you activate a switch set to directional the winch would extend. Turn the switch off and it would retract. For this device you would want to it to retract when activated, so backwards is the way to go

    Let me know if that helps
  12. MacMog's Avatar
    I tried to build the set/clear device in LBP and cannot get it to work. At best I can get it to pull to the right, but not the left. If I set the Backwards option or the strength settings to certain values, the winch pulls so forcefully that the glass block flies apart. Any idea what I did wrong? :(

    The setup:
    [LIST][*] a 4 high rectangle of dark matter with a 2 high notch cut out of the center, magnetic switch on the right, similar to the screenshot[*] a piece of glass with a magnetic key attached (square to start, replaced with a circle in case the square’s corners screwed up the physics somehow)[*] two winches, both set with max length longer than the box, min length 2 (in case 0 pulled the glass block into the box), timing set to 0.1, left strength at 5 and right strength at 10 (bias towards set), flipper motion off, backwards off (seems to break more if set to on)[*] two 2-way switches, both set to on/off, each attached to one winch and a light to confirm on/off[/LIST]

    Side note: what does the Backwards option for the winch mean? I haven’t found a good explanation here or on the wiki. If you understand, please explain and consider adding it to the wiki.
  13. Firemac's Avatar
    The more I work on this, the more I believe the real problem is with the tags(and nothing to do with analog signals) I'm using to send my number readings.

    My addition microchip was working, but now it's not, and I haven't even messed with it.

    Have you had issues with using tags before?
  14. Firemac's Avatar
    Yeah sorry for not giving the full details.

    But here's the basic thing I'm doing. I have to take two numbers and subtract/add them via analog signals then have the output reflect the answer on my display.

    My numbers are wired from selectors. These selectors have 10 ports, each port is wired to display the corresponding number using holograms. So from there once it hits the 0 display it cycles the next selector next to it. So it's a basic counter at this point. So from here is where I need to start implementing everything else.

    In order to convert the data from the selector, I have all the ports wired into Microchips that carry the battery information that will represent. Example, if number 4 is lit, the 40% battery will be on. All of these batteries are then wired into an OR gate which will then carry the signal into my Addition or Subtraction microchips.

    That's one in put, the next input is the actual number data that it will get from an outside source. Using tags hooked up to batteries and having a tag sensor set to signal strength, I can wirelessly transmit analog data. So for the sake of my testing, I've been using a tag wired up to a 20% battery. This information then gets wired directly into the chips I mentioned.

    So that's where the data is coming from. Now inside these chips, I have your basic addition/subtraction set ups that I built upon looking at your blogs. The only difference is that I have to perform an equality test to see when the answers are either below or above 0 (for my subtraction chip) and above and below 10 (for my addition chip) This test will not only decide which output gets sent out. (by activating a relayed microchip) but it will also activate a wire that's directly wired into the cycle input of the selector. (this will perform the desired carry as in the case of 9 + 9 = 8, and the 1 will get carried over). The carry situation is more a of a digital situation than it is an analog one. But as for the chosen result from chips, they are then wired into an or gate which is then wired into a positional sequencer which is then wired back into the selector. so if the answer is supposed to be an 8, it'll activate the 80% battery and then light up the 8th selector port.

    So there, that's the basic flow of how, I have to do things. Oh, right, one little piece I forgot to mention. Before any math can happen, it has detect an additional tag before it activates the addition or subtraction microchip. Example, along with the number data it needs to know if it's going to be damage or healing, So if it detects a healing tag it will activate the addition, and subtraction for the damage.

    Alright, so to give you an update on how I've been doing. I've fixed my whole problem with my addition. It was my input speed that was affecting results. If the data from a tag lingers for a moment too long the math was to get performed twice or more causing all sorts of headaches. So to solve the issue, I had to sort of implement your concept of sampling in less than 3 clock ticks. I couldn't really follow your blog on this concept, but the main thing I got out of it was the pulse counter with a timer. I had a pulse counter and a timer set to 0.1 with start count down set up as interval between the tags and the activation of the addition circuit. With my emitter that emits the tags (set at a life time of 0.2 sec) it was able to detect the numbers and perform all math correctly.

    So given that logic, I tried to apply this to my subtraction chip activation, and it doesn't seem to work at all. Instead I get the odd results of it constantly going to 0 back to 8. And just so you know my subtraction processes are correct. I used some batteries and phorts to display to test all possible numbers, and it outputs what i want, so the situation has to be with the input speed. And as to why the same solution doesn't work for both chips, I have no clue.
  15. rtm223's Avatar
    OK, I just read through all of this and I'm still pretty confused what on earth you are trying to do...

    All this talk of carrys etc. is a little vague, I get the impression you're trying to do addition and subtraction with 2 analogue signals? One doing 10s and one doing units? Or something like that? :/
  16. Firemac's Avatar
    Hello, decided to leave a comment again instead of an edit. Okay here's my situation. (i'm sorry, I must seem rather pest worthy at this point.)

    I have sort of solved my problems. I got two timers to slow down the processes just long enough for the addition to occur. But the problem comes from when I need to perform a carry. In other words add one to the next digit over. It's so inconsistent, for whatever reason, it would only decide it's time to do a carry when the problem is 6 + 2 when that occurs it shouldn't be increasing the next digit over at all. Oh this is so frustrating.I solve one problem another comes up.

    I'm very close to dropping my whole HP logic. =/
  17. Firemac's Avatar
    okay, I think I've given you enough edits than you can handle, lol so here's an extra post.

    I've found out the source of my problems. I thought I had figured out how to handle all possible number outcomes on my addition microchip by just adding an AND gate at the end, so it route the correct number to the sequencer, but I just realized that the and Gate only works for me when the answer is over 10. And the OR gate works when it's not. So I have to figure out how to handle both types of answers. Might have to route something from the equality test right back into the chip, hmmmm.

    if you're unsure what I need. Here's an example, 2 + 3 = 5, so I need the analog value of 5 to get routed out of the microchip, but if the math is something like 9 + 2, then the answer is obviously 11, but it's not going to give me that, It'll me the capped 10 and the overflow with 1, I need that 1 to go back.

    Hmm there's a good chance I might figure it out before you reply, but don't hold back from posting. =P

    Edit#1: Yup I solved it, and/or gates in sufficient for what I needed, so I had to use the relay technique of putting a node inside a microchip, then I had some equality tests test out when the answers were either below 10 or over 10 to activate the appropriate microchip. Subtraction was a little more tricky, because I had the rare case of two 0 inputs which would of resulted in an erroneous output, but that's all good now.

    I'm just having a different problem now. Due to this extra logic, the math no longer works at 0.1 secs, but when I increase the emitter (that emits the health changing data) to 0.2 secs it does the math process twice, which makes no sense to me. I wish I could raise the time to like 0.15 secs...
    Updated 02-27-2011 at 04:34 PM by Firemac
  18. ShiftyDog's Avatar
    i don't get it because i never worked with analog before. but i know that positive act normal and negative is inverted... just don't know the amount of percentage, but i guess that it something to do with the amount of power of the output?
  19. Firemac's Avatar
    Hmm, well I'm working with selectors as a HP data display, and I ran into a large problem, I need to be able to take off chunks of HP at a time. I've heard of use of timers and so on, but my HP is significantly different, because I need 4 digits and not just 2. But that's besides the point. Once I came across your analog blogs, I was overfilled with joy that I could actually perform some math. But in order to implement the math, I sort of have to handle each digit on its own, which is ok for me. I've actually got the addition down pretty good. It knows when it'll have to carry a 1 into the next digit. I pretty much just add an OR gate to the end and I believe it was the normal output that I wired into an equality test which would then send the signal to the selector that it needs to add 1. So I'm pretty confident with my addition processes, and thanks to phort's analog display I've been able to test my answers.

    So when it comes to subtraction, I short of need to be able to do the same thing just in reverse. If the answer is below 0 it tells the next digit over to subtract 1. I think I may able to figure out what to do with just what you told me, but I will not mind if you go on and tell me your approach to this. =)

    In the near future, I will also have to deal with division and multiplication, but it should just be as simple as a x2 and 1/2 formula.

    Edit: Oh hey there's an editting feature that I did not notice before =P

    Anyway, I'm editting to just update you. I have a huge mess of logic. I have to jump from digital to analog back to digital back to analog then back to digital. It's unfortunately thanks to the fact that I have selectors to do my Hp data. And there's a crap ton of logic going on for just one digit, and I haven't even added subtracting processes yet.

    Edit #2: Okay I've pretty much figured out how to handle the subtraction on my own, aren't you proud of me? I honestly have to thank phort mostly, if I couldn't test what the values were going to be, i would of never been able to construct a subtraction microchip from scratch. I still have to deal with multiplication and division, but luckily I'll most likely not have to deal with with a complex selector display when I implement those two functions.

    Edit#3: Okay I've done some testing for my set up and something goes horribly wrong. Maybe you can help shed some light. I might have to show you some pictures if you don't understand what I'm doing. I'm going to try to tell you in as small amount of words as I can. Okay, for starters I used phort's analog display to check my math. I tracked the values throughout my wires, and the math all seems just fine. The problem comes when it takes the final analog value into the sequencer which then decides what selector port needs to be lit up. Example, if the sequencer gets the value of 20, it'll activate the 20% battery on the sequencer which then activates Selector port#2, which is supposed to my display for the #2. So you get the basic idea yes? Well I've done a test where the selector is going to get added 2. It seems to work at first, but then after a few extra inputs the answer starts to get really really wrong. It'll sometimes it'll act as if I added 3 and not 2, and sometimes when it gets to the point where it should cycle back to port 1 it decides to just reverse direction. Example, it was on port #8 I added 2 and I saw it try to cycle, but after port#10 it decides to go back to selector port#8.

    So I'm really frustrated. A speedy response would be fantastic.


    Edit #4: Ok well you got the gist of what I did, but guess what, I found the source of one of my errors. I failed to check the source of one of the inputs. I had messed up some battery readings and so the wrong input was being well inputted...

    I've just now run into a problem, 9 +2 is getting me a 0 answer, I may need to double check my addition microchip. It's not your normal addition microchip, mainly because I have to attach an OR/AND gate to it to handle which number it needs to carry back to the selector. Hmm, as I type this, I think I know where I went wrong. I anticipated one problem, but didn't think about all possibilities. It's back to the drawing board for me!
    Updated 02-27-2011 at 03:05 AM by Firemac
  20. rtm223's Avatar
    Yeah there tends to be a lot of typos in these things, my proof reading skills are significantly underwhelming

    If you subtract and the answer is lower than zero (i.e. negative), then you simple get a negative answer out of the combiner. So

    50 - 75 = -25.

    The analogue signals will happily hold a negative value, but not all components will work well with it. Some will simply interpret it as the same as +25.

    If you can let me know what kinda data sources you're working and vaguely what you want to achieve with it I can probably be more help
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