Infinite Lives Checkpoint, Yes or No?

I noticed that a lot of levels and people prefer using infinite lives checkpoints in their levels, but I think this takes away from gameplay of a level. I think that having a limited number of lives can add suspense and an uneasy feeling as you try to complete obstacles in levels, and relief comes after you complete a challenge.

Infinite lives seem to add calmness in a level, of which it can make the level boring and unexciting, and add the feeling that you didn't achieve much when you complete an obstacle.

Opinions?

Have a go at the high scores on the "OH NO! THE PRINCESS" series, or my level, if you think that adding infinate lives takes away the challenge! And if you really want a sense on tension then go for the ace - I aced world 1 of "OH No!" and I tell you now that acing a difficult level is anything but boring, regardless of the number of lives available :p


At the end of the day, if you're going to die 3 times at a certain stage what difference does it make how many lives you've got? The only difference it makes is that less skilled players are effectively barred from enjoying the level.

I think the question as it's presented is a bit too general.

What is the challenge of the level? Is it getting a high score or getting through it, for example? (Is it even a level with a challenge?)

Assuming we're talking about a level with a basic story where you go from A to B and end with a boss fight?

The balance here is that you don't want the player to fail, ideally. That's not fun for them. That being said, you definitely want them feel like they are in danger at many points, and infinite lives can easily spoil that.

I'd actually be partial to using infinite checkpoints for most of the level up until you reach the "dramatic part", and at that point forcing them into a limited number of lives. Or, of course, just make sure the game plays it smart enough with points so that they get invested in their score ... dying then still being something to fear.

If they fail at the boss? So be it, many will most likely be more than willing to give it another shot if they liked the level. If they died in the middle from accidentally falling in the gas pit too much though - that will probably leave them with a negative play experience.

I'd say that they both have their place, but infinite live checkpoints are definitely a good addition to the game.

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Originally Posted by rtm223

Have a go at the high scores on the "OH NO! THE PRINCESS" series, or my level, if you think that adding infinate lives takes away the challenge! And if you really want a sense on tension then go for the ace - I aced world 1 of "OH No!" and I tell you now that acing a difficult level is anything but boring, regardless of the number of lives available :p

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Yes, but not everyone tries to ace every level they play, having limited lives sort of forces the player into fun, suspenseful experience.

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Originally Posted by rtm223

At the end of the day, if you're going to die 3 times at a certain stage what difference does it make how many lives you've got? The only difference it makes is that less skilled players are effectively barred from enjoying the level.

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This is why you make obstacles that appear difficult, but overall, are plainly easy. Something that is too easy can be boring.

Like any othe featur and tool, it can be used greatly and used badly.

I don't mind infinite life checkpoints if your goal was to make an easy level and that you wanted it accessible for everyone. However, infinite checkpoints must not compensable for cheap hard sections. It musn't compensate for bad design either. I'm seen too much of that.

Personally I'm not a fan of infinite checkpoints. I will put them somewhere extremely hard and then again, it totally depends the context.
Thing is, there should be difficulty levels in this game and THERE ARE players that want a challenge. It's all about knowing what your audience is. I personally can't care less if a player that isn't skilled enough dies in my hard level. I warn people of the difficulty level in the title and description so they need to learn to read first. Secondo, there's also that little quality that is called "perseverance" and that thing called "practice". I DO want people to get better and go further in the level by replaying it. I don't want an unskilled player to go through my hard level because there's infinite checkpoints, I want him to succeedingly complete the level because he's skilled.

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It really depends on the level. In the Sacky Potter one that I've almost finished, all the checkpoints are infinite. This is because the level is more about the story, and there are only 2 sections where there's really any danger. I wouldn't describe it as a 'challenging' level. I would rather everyone can complete the level on their first playthrough rather than running out of lives near the end and possibly not bothering to have another go.

If, however, you're making a level with difficult obstacles and lots of enemies and stuff, then maybe not using them is better. That siren you hear when you're on your last life really puts the pressure on, and makes everything a lot more exciting.

But then you have levels like the OH NO series, which are very difficult but wouldn't be the same without infite lives. It works perfectly, because the drawback of dying isn't that you will run out of lives, but that you will have to go back and do that section again and again until you get past it. I think we all know how difficult the Bunker wheel was when we all first tried it, and how annoying it was to have to redo the whole of the rest of the level to get back to that point only to run out of lives again. It would have been much better if you could keep trying until you succeed.

To me it depends on multiplayer. if you have 4 people and even 1 of them is a noob, or even a slight lag you are basically screwed in some levels with limited lives.

Yes, Oh Yes, Definitely Yes. Always. I never use anything else now. I can't see the point in making a great/long level if you're just going to make it too difficult to get to the end by only giving limited lives. It's especially frustrating when it happens near the end too. If a creator does that to me I certainly ain't playing the level again.

its hard to get it right but this thread has given me an idea

I like to use infinite life checkpoints for a single, shallow reason. Basically, if there is a section of your level that is remotely hard, and you don't have an infinite life checkpoint there, you run the risk of getting low ratings from people who don't understand the concept of "challenge". That, and sometimes parts just take more than 4 or 8 tries to complete, restarting it because you died could take away from the experience, it depends on the level.

I always use infinite lives checkpoints. The way I see it is this: Your obstacle/monster/whatever is still difficult whether you have to restart the level to see it again or not. The differences? One way you have to do the whole level again, get a suspenseful feeling, and low ratings, the other way you get to retry one section until you get it and get decent ratings depending on your level. There are way too many drawbacks to finite lives to get me to use them.

I use them. I find it odd at times when people complain that it makes the level easier or that it takes away from the challenge. Infinite lives won't make a fire pit any easier to jump over. All it does is save players from going back to the start of your level. Forcing players to start again after losing 3 lives or whatever is an archaic relic from the arcade era when players were paying per play.

I personally use them because I pepper my levels with jokes etc that don't exactly stand up to repeat plays and many of them are cut-secenes which grate on repeat viewings. I also think as players play through your level, they get bored if you have them repeating sections too often. Many players simply can't be bothered playing all the way through a level again just because they got stuck on a bit near the end. I'm one of them.

It will help players get through the level in one attempt, but if you're worried about that, then you're a little too concerned about play counts tbh. Poor players will not be able to complete a hard level because of infinite lives.

The difficulty should come from the level and the obstacles itself, not from how many attempts you give the player. They do have infinite attempts as it is anyway, given that they can restart as many times as they want.

I think that this article from Cracked pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

Some boss fights have infinate checkpoints, and thats a bit :/ to me.

I've always had the mindset of pretty much what Matt just said. Just because you have infinite lives it doesn't make the level any easier, it just means that lesser players have a better chance of completing it. However, I've never used them freely because of the stigma that's attached to them. Saying that, it seems from this thread that opinions are actually starting to come around and realise that it doesn't actually make it any easier, it just helping the level become playable for everyone.

In the case of OH NO!!! series I think this is a great example where they're not just helpful for the 'noobs'. I'd say I'm pretty good at this game, and I bet even I at some point would have used up the allotted 8 lives from a double checkpoint. Those levels manage to create platforming that is really tough, but never frustrating and it's all down to you to work out the timings. That series just wouldn't be the same without them.

However the post about using them on bosses is a very very good one that I don't think a lot people realise. A lot of bosses now a days centre around shooting something while having to dodge some form of danger. By having infinite lives here it does take all the challenge out of it because you don't have to worry or even consider timings and dodging. You can just jump out and pull off as many shots as possible before getting hit yourself...and then do the same over and over again until the boss is beaten.

Now there's lots of room for argument here about trying to ace levels and making your own challenge out of it, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of the community doesn't think like that, and the challenge sometimes has to be forced on them. It's just about finding the right balance between ensuring the challenge of a boss is there, but also ensuring that it's still fair and the majority will complete it. Even the OH NO series struggles with this, as if you've already died a few times and don't care about getting a top score, a lot of people will just use the gung-ho tactic and not really care about getting hit or spiked.

You also loose points when you die, so having and infinite life checkpoint still has some challenge otherwise you would loose all your points.

Personally, I use them, they allow people to play through and enjoy the whole level. And if the player is trying to get a high score, then they will try not to die anyway.

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Originally Posted by Matt 82

Forcing players to start again after losing 3 lives or whatever is an archaic relic from the arcade era when players were paying per play.

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I don't think its an "archaic relic from the arcade era". It's a matter of perception here really. In your logic, a LBP is only a suite of challenges back to back. Infinite checkpoints is the only way to go because you don't want to next challenge to affect what you completed before the last checkpiont. It's fine but you can also see the whole level as a challenge. No matter how you spin it, taking challenges in a level one by one with infinite lives is demanding less concentration and skill than doing all the challenges in row.

So I see a level as either a bunch of seperated challenges or the level being the challenge as a whole. Giving limited lives permit you to create a "fail state" when see you level as "one big challenge" just like each you can fail all the seperate challenges between infinite live checkpoints. And this is totally legit and not archaic at all.

It is possible though to make a level that is as much "seperate challenges" than "one big challenge". It's actually been my goal with Crazy Train. The level can be completed in parts, you know, dying normally and restarting at the last checkpoint but when you turn on the "bubble mode", the goal becomes "having the longest streak of bubble score you can". At that moment the level in its whole becomes the challenge.

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Ranger Zero hit the nail on the head.

And if i could just add my 2 cents.

It really depends on the flow of the level.
Everything in life has a flow, and if the flow is disturbed... then it fails.

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An Infinite check point marks experimentation. You're free to try out all the craziest things you want because you have no fear of dying.

A Non-infinite check point marks concentration. You will take your next step very cautiously because you do not have much lives left.
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It all depends on the flow of the level. If you want the player to just keep on trying and just keep on running and moving and jumping and keep the flow going, then an infinite check point is the way to go.
But if you want the player to stop and think, and actually plan out his approach then a non-infinite check point is the way to go.

For Example:

I'm working on a Run'gun style of level, and I'm not using infinite check points in it. The reason is because I want the player to think about how he can dodge the bullets and try and stay alive.
In the "OH NO! THE PRINCESS" series you must be able to time your jump well and actually try a number of times to progress through the level.
However if you're using the paintantor, all you have to do is spam the paints to progress. So it doesn't matter if you just keep on running into the plasma ball as long as you can get a bit of paint on the target.
If a player just continuously runs into the plasma ball it would just ruin the level, making it frustrating and boring. So by adding in a non-infinite check point, it tells the player
"Hmmm... I don't have much lives yet, maybe i should try a different tactic"

I've had messages left on my comments asking why I did'nt use infinite life checkpoints, I don't know if I have been rating lower by these people because I did'nt use them??

I use them now, like Matt82 said above, I like to people to see the level I've made in one go really. I add in secrets to try and make the player replay to push my play count up.

I'm a huge fan of the infinite lives checkpoint, personally. People seem to rate levels higher if they can complete it and aren't as afraid of dying. ^_^

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Originally Posted by xkappax

I'm a huge fan of the infinite lives checkpoint, personally. People seem to rate levels higher if they can complete it and aren't as afraid of dying. ^_^

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Yeah I like people to see what I've spent the last few weeks creating, and hopefully rate it accordingly if they've seen it from start to finish.

I know that personally, i get REALLY frustrated if I've invested 10 minutes on a level and I die RIGHT before the end. I don't rate the level low, but that doesn't mean someone else might NOT rate it low if they have a similar experience.

Hmmmm, when it comes down to your level design decisions coming down to "how will it affect my ratings", that's a little sad really, but I do understand.

I think Jagrevi has made the best points so far, that balance is what it's about. It really depends on the purpose of the level.

@Warlord Evil, I have no idea where you are coming from on this. You say that you think infinate life checkpoints detract from the challenge, but then you go on to say:

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Originally Posted by warlord_evil

This is why you make obstacles that appear difficult, but overall, are plainly easy. Something that is too easy can be boring.

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Making obstacles that are "plainly easy" detracts from the challenge too!!

And this:

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Originally Posted by warlord_evil

Yes, but not everyone tries to ace every level they play, having limited lives sort of forces the player into fun, suspenseful experience.

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When you say you feel that the infinate lives checkpoint takes away some of the challenge, surely this is from a player's perspective. Not every player wants to be forced into a feeling of suspense - in fact most players in this game probably don't - so you're pretty much arguing against yourself here. Those that do want that suspense can make it suspenseful for themselves by attempting an ace - or at least trying to die the fewest times on really hard levels. IMO it's only suspenseful if you have 1 life left (or tell yourself you must not lose a life).

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Originally Posted by Matt 82

Poor players will not be able to complete a hard level because of infinite lives.

The difficulty should come from the level and the obstacles itself, not from how many attempts you give the player. They do have infinite attempts as it is anyway, given that they can restart as many times as they want.

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This is a very good point. As players can restart, all it adds is tedium and the chances are people won't opt for tedium and repetition if it is forced upon them. Subterranean Setbacks is intended to be an epic sprawling journey where you really should be fighting every step of the way to progress. For those of you that haven't played it, it takes me 10 mins to get through it at a full sprint - that's not hunting secret bubbles and barely dying. It took some people between 30 mins to an hour to get through - because it's that punishing. No one would choose to restart that ordeal, but many of them chose to push on, comforted by the infinate checkpoints. Many people also couldn't complete it, or found it too difficult and tedious as it is. There is enough challenge in the design of the level itself make the use of finite life checkpoints simply cheap.

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Originally Posted by snowyjoe

An Infinite check point marks experimentation. You're free to try out all the craziest things you want because you have no fear of dying.

A Non-infinite check point marks concentration. You will take your next step very cautiously because you do not have much lives left.

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Whilst I can see the logic here, I'm gonna point to "OH NO!!", if you attempt that as just a throwing yourself into it over and over again, you really won't get through it in a hurry. You very much need to concentrate on your timing to get through - concentration is key, regardless of the number of lives you have. But then you do go on to hint towards this, and your paintenator point is a very good one, if you can wear down paintswitches with a "war of attrition" type approach, then it pretty much makes the obstacle pointless. But then the player still has choice about how to approach it on their own terms, which as a player I appreciate from a creator - it means they've actually handed me a tiny bit of flexibility, and appreciate that sometimes I'm playing hungover, rather than saying "this is how you will play my level and I demand you have fun on my terms" (exaggerated for emphasis :p)

Just to throw something else into the mix, checkpoints have far more impact upon a level that merely adding challenge. In setbacks there are a few places where 2-3 checkpoints are right near each other, with no real danger inbetween... Why? To remove tedium - after the third CP there is a nasty challenge, so why should I return the player to checkpoint 1 and have to walk a fair way before reaching thhe point of death again. To me this is like the tedium of restarting the level - someone mentioned the bunker as a perfect example. Nothing before the wheel is particularly challenging, but that wheel really steps it up a notch and replaying that level for the ace was very, very tedious.

As has been said, it very much depends on the level - I certainly think that any hard levels, with well designed, challenging, skills-based and fair challenges will benefit from inifinate lives. As will your basic fun-for-everone, no real challenge, levels. IMO it's in that hazy middle ground that the question "does an infinate checkpoint remove the challenge" needs to be asked. But then you also need to ask, "will a finite checkpoint simply add cheapness to my level?"

I'll paraphrase what Mistervista said a while back on the topic...

"If I spend weeks or months working away at a level, it's not fair to myself if someone plays my level, runs out of lives in the middle, and exits to his or her pod. By adding infinite life checkpoints, it prevents players from getting frustrated and quitting before they finish the level."

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Originally Posted by BSprague

I like to use infinite life checkpoints for a single, shallow reason. Basically, if there is a section of your level that is remotely hard, and you don't have an infinite life checkpoint there, you run the risk of getting low ratings from people who don't understand the concept of "challenge". That, and sometimes parts just take more than 4 or 8 tries to complete, restarting it because you died could take away from the experience, it depends on the level.

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Couldn't agree more. I only place them in spots where people may get frustrated from dying too many times during a difficult area, especially if it's deep into the level and they won't want to go all the way through again to re-try that specific area and finish the level.

Noobs that think things that are are hard should be rated 1 star... are wrong. It only matters in one thing... replayability. When they fail they will eather
1: Play it till they beat it, thus giving you a lot of plays
2: Rate it 1 star because it was too hard.

I absolutely refuse to put infinite life checkpoints unless I know I will need the same checkpoint a lot (like in Sticker Museum). Like you said, it kinda takes a factor away from the levels.

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Originally Posted by chezhead

Noobs that think things that are are hard should be rated 1 star... are wrong. It only matters in one thing... replayability. When they fail they will eather
1: Play it till they beat it, thus giving you a lot of plays
2: Rate it 1 star because it was too hard.

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It doesn't matter if they are wrong, they still rated your level a completely undeserved 1 star. This does have a permanent impact on this level that you have to deal with because of people with no conception of difficulty who have some type of attention deficit disorder.*

*I don't mean to offend anyone with ADD on this forums, it just seems like immature people with ADD would be the ones to rate levels based on the fact they weren't able to complete them. Everyone here is much more competent than that. :)

I'll admit that sometimes I get a little ADD when I play and refuse to take things slowly. It just allows me to be a little more relaxed [contradiction, much?]. It's during these times that I gladly welcome infinite checkpoints.

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Originally Posted by rtm223

Hmmmm, when it comes down to your level design decisions coming down to "how will it affect my ratings", that's a little sad really, but I do understand.

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I don't think anyones saying that quite so literally, it's more a case of trying to design your level so more people can potentially enjoy it.

I always use unlimited check points since they were introduced, my levels are just too flippin' long to have players re-starting.

infinite life may take away from the suspense but sometimes thats what creators need to make people feel more endulged in there levels and really pay attention to detail and craftsmanship. Also if theres one of the most hated things in the world its RESTARTING, people hate have to restart a level just because they accidently fell into some gas or didnt see a danger because of the lighting, infinite life gives freedom to the clumsy :p. Also with infinite lives you can make all the booby traps and sneak attacks and suprises you want cause the player doesnt get mad at the fact you just took a 1/4 or 1/8 of there lives just cause you wanted a chuckle. Now they will laugh with you :P

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Originally Posted by Littlebigdude805

Also with infinite lives you can make all the booby traps and sneak attacks and suprises you want cause the player doesnt get mad

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I wouldn't count on that. Unless you are playing "The Unfair Platformer", cheap deaths are generally frowned upon.

they also help a lot in mp. I die a lot more in levels when playing with others because of lag and because they'll swing a sponge out of reach or whatever.

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Originally Posted by chezhead

Noobs that think things that are are hard should be rated 1 star... are wrong. It only matters in one thing... replayability. When they fail they will eather
1: Play it till they beat it, thus giving you a lot of plays
2: Rate it 1 star because it was too hard.

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I usually go for:
3: Rate it fairly and skip onto another level to spend my time on. Of course, if I thought my death was unfair, it would affect my rating.

Funny, I never thought of using limited lives to get more plays. Which is worse, I wonder: using unlimited lives so people get throught it just to get you level more stars, or using limited lives so people will have to restart, just to get your level more plays. I guess we can lay that argument to rest here. There are good and bad motivations on both sides, just make sure you base your decision on the right reasons.

I guess it all comes down to majority vs minority.

The majority of the LBP community wants to see what you have created, where as a minority want to be challenged by the creator.
Of-course I'm generalizing alot here.

Yes or no, I vote yes.

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Originally Posted by snowyjoe

I guess it all comes down to majority vs minority.

The majority of the LBP community wants to see what you have created, where as a minority want to be challenged by the creator.
Of-course I'm generalizing alot here.

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No. It's about what the creator is looking for. What people like in majority is irrelevant because the creator ultimately express himself. So it's about what you aim for. I suppose if you aim to please and get more plays you should then use infinite checkpoints no matter what. But as I explained earlier, you can have also alot of reasons for wanting limited lives. It depends what you aim.

Pleasing to the majority doesn't equal "i'm making a better level". Also, using infinite or finite checkpoint also don't mean the level will be better.

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For myself, it depends. When I am playing with my fiance, who tries with every fiber of her being but still can't learn to jump when she sees a pit of fire, I want the infinate lives so that I can see the end of the level even if it does take 20 minutes to get there.

On my own though I would almost rather normal 4 life check points and the occasional 8 life checkpoint in really hard spots.

It would be really cool if there was some way to choose when you started the level. Like hit a switch at the beginning of the game that would lower infinate or normal checkpoints. Something tells me that would kill the thermo though.

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Originally Posted by pm317b

For myself, it depends. When I am playing with my fiance, who tries with every fiber of her being but still can't learn to jump when she sees a pit of fire, I want the infinate lives so that I can see the end of the level even if it does take 20 minutes to get there.

On my own though I would almost rather normal 4 life check points and the occasional 8 life checkpoint in really hard spots.

It would be really cool if there was some way to choose when you started the level. Like hit a switch at the beginning of the game that would lower infinate or normal checkpoints. Something tells me that would kill the thermo though.

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This is totally doable and easy to do. It's actually a good idea too. Kind of a difficulty setting at the beginning of the level. I might do this.

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Originally Posted by RangerZero

This is totally doable and easy to do. It's actually a good idea too. Kind of a difficulty setting at the beginning of the level. I might do this.

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Yeah, that's a cinch. On each area that you want checkpoints put 2 emitters - one infinite, one normal. Have a switch at the beginning of the level. Have the off/on position of the switch activate and OR switch that activates on of 2 AND switches via a sensor switch when you continue into the level. This will make one or the other appear.

As I said, I figured it was possible because I have been looking at doing that for a level of mine. At the moment I haven't found a thermo thesible way for doing that.

All the same though, I posted a topic awhile ago about reducing thermo and I am still working on getting that down, so I may not be the best to ak.