Changing the criteria of the Create Trophy. (ending H4H)

Ok, I get the feeling that this topic has been discussed to death on these boards. But I couldn't resist finding out people's opinions on this.



I've been playing levels from LBPC over the last few months.
What's really blown my mind is the difference in quality between these levels, and the stuff you find by browsing in-game.


Yeah... It doesn't come as news to anyone that LBP is poor at exposing good content. The best levels frequently disappear under a sea of rubbish.

This fact is so well-accepted, entire levels have been created around the idea. :cry::hero::cry:


But does anyone else think that a huge portion of this problem is a direct result of the Create Trophy? I certainly think so.
In fact, I think the way the Create Trophy is arranged now practically guarantees bad levels filling MM's servers!

Here's why:

• The demand of 30 creator hearts requires the creation of at least two well-liked levels; Or 1 very successful one. For the average trophy-obsessed gamer, the time investment implied by this is unacceptable! They will cheat. (Remember, trophy addicts need their trophies ASAP, so that they can move on to the next game before their friends.)
  
  
• The emphasis on creator hearts encourages people to publish lots of levels - rather than invest the time on a single good one.
  
  
• By making the Trophy contingent on LBP's rating system, it guarantees "corruption" will occur: favours for friends, hearts-for-hearts. All this behavior harms LBP's rating system- and our ability to sort good levels from bad.

Seeing as MM can't remove trophies from the game, could they change the Create Trophy criteria to alleviate the problem? :confused:
I think they could.


At this point, it's worth pointing out that the Create Trophy is always going to be flawed- For the simple reason that you can't measure "creativity". Unless MM starts awarding trophies by hand, it will always be possible to cheat the trophy requirements.
With this in mind, here's my hastily-conceived idea for new criteria:

To obtain the Create Trophy, players must publish one level in which the thermometer is full.

I know what you're thinking: that's absurdly easy. It's also completely trivial to cheat. And I agree.
I still think it's better.

• Cheating players would simply fill a level with junk, and publish it to win a trophy. But what's easier for LBP's rating system to deal with: a junk level with zero hearts and the "rubbish" tag, or a junk level wth a hundred H4H'd hearts?
  
  
• By focusing on one level and a single thermometer, players are encouraged to take time over a single creation. In the race to the top of the thermo, newbie players may discover that they actually want to make something good; they actually want to be creative. This is where creative motivation really comes from anyway.
  
  
• By removing any dependance on LBP's ranking system (hearts, stars, etc), it removes "favour for a friend" behaviour and H4H - Improving LBP's ability to rank levels in order of actual quality.
  
  
  
• Oh noes!! What about all those players who'll leave LBP, now the Create Trophy is so easy to get?! MM wants to keep those users!
  To this I raise another question: what about all the casual players who left LBP as a result of seeing only poor levels online?
  Thousands of players must believe that Cool Pages represents the best LBP's community is capable of.

Improving LBP's ranking system would benefit everyone: casual players would be able to find AAA-quality content without searching through specialist online forums. Hardcore creators would feel better rewarded for their effort.


I think my trophy suggestion is far from optimal... I'm sure people here have got better ideas.


So, what do you folks think?
If you were MM, would you leave the Create Trophy as it is?


[SPOILER]apologies for the excessive length of this post... :blush:[/SPOILER]

Good ideas. i too think that changing the criteria of the trophy may work, but as you said, someone is jsut going to post a level full of junk, which could potentially be even worse than H4H. I see your point that 'baffers' (Thanks for the word Sackcast! :) ) will be encouraged to be creative, but still, there will be some left over. I also think that the Play Create and Share trophies should be the hardest to get (aside from platinum) and I think that your suggested criteria could be a little easy. Of course, I have no suggestions as of yet, but if I do I'll edit this post. Thanks for the interesting read Tig!

I see where you are coming from and what you are getting at, but no. We already have a trophy for building a level with more than 30% thermometer, why add one for 100%? I have seen hundreds of absolutely fantastic levels that didn't utilize the entire thermometer. I could make a level with a single emitter than fills the thermometer!

A gold trophy is supposed to be hard to get, and rewarding when obtained. At least this way, H4Hers actually have to work a little bit for it (albeit not as much as they should have to). And with that trophy, you are actually punishing creators who are successful because of their fantastic levels.

I think we should have a special option to report comments or users for H4Hing, and if Media Molecule feels the same way, they can make it impossible for the player to receive that trophy, or remove it from them for having it. If a comment/user/level gets X amount of H4H Griefs, it should be automatically sent to MediaMolecule, and from there it only takes them a second or two to see if it is in actuality H4H-related.

Cool ideas, How many H4Hers get the trophy from it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by springs86

Cool ideas, How many H4Hers get the trophy from it?

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All of them. ;)

No.

Play trophy, create trophy, share trophy.

Its the motto.
Hence gold.

There meant to be hard.

If you have a problem with H4H you have a few options.

Be a H4Her.

Ignore it.

I find the anti H4Hers really annoying now, seriousely no ones going to stop it -.-

hmm, thanks for the comments guys. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BSprague

I think we should have a special option to report comments or users for H4Hing, and if Media Molecule feels the same way, they can make it impossible for the player to receive that trophy, or remove it from them for having it. If a comment/user/level gets X amount of H4H Griefs, it should be automatically sent to MediaMolecule, and from there it only takes them a second or two to see if it is in actuality H4H-related.

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This seems like a very good idea.

However, it would create lots more admin for MM. And as with everything community-related, it would probably be open to some kind of abuse. ("You didn't heart me so I'm putting H4H griefs on your profile!" - that kind of rubbish.)



As for keeping the Create trophy as a genuine reward for creators....


How many creators here honestly care about trophies?
How many of you unlocked the trophy months ago, but continue to create anyway?

I think that for many dedicated creators, the reward is in seeing people enjoy their levels, and getting positive feedback. Plus, there's always MM-awarded Crowns as a proper reward mechanism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam9001

Ignore it.

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Is that really a good enough answer to the problems of LBP's ranking system?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tig-W

("You didn't heart me so I'm putting H4H griefs on your profile!" - that kind of rubbish.)

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In my previous post, I said after it gets X amount of griefs, Media Molecule look at it, not it immediately take action. It only takes a second or two to look at the "flagged" material and see if it is in fact offending. If people were doing it to spite others, Media Molecule would see it isn't H4H-related and move on. Yes, it is a little bit more work, but we already have the Good Grief system in place, so it is really just adding to it. I could see it working. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam9001

No.

There meant to be hard.

If you have a problem with H4H you have a few options.

Be a H4Her.

Ignore it.

I find the anti H4Hers really annoying now, seriousely no ones going to stop it -.-

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How will becoming a h4her solve someones problems with h4hers?

and on topic i dont think we should change the trophy requirements i like the additional greifing system idea for reporting h4h, i still support the idea of censoring the word h4h just to show distaste in the concept

Create trophy: A level you have made has been to highest rated page 1

Now thats a trophy worth getting

Or

Change the censored words to:
H4H
H_4_H
H 4 H
Heart 4 Heart
Heart_4_Heart
Heart4heart

Quote:

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Originally Posted by springs86

Create trophy: A level you have made has been to highest rated page 1

Now thats a trophy worth getting

Or

Change the censored words to:
H4H
H_4_H
H 4 H
Heart 4 Heart
Heart_4_Heart
Heart4heart

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Have you seen half of the levels on that page? They clearly do not deserve to be there (mainly prize levels), while some fantastic levels are stuck with four stars. That isn't saying all levels on the Highest Rated page are bad, there are some great ones on there, just not all of them. ;)

Changing the sensors would work for about a day, before they made up a new buzz word for it.

Quote:

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Changing the sensors would work for about a day, before they made up a new buzz word for it.

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Very true.


I don't think there's any "automated" system that could stop H4H.

The only thing that might work is BSprague's idea of a H4H-report button.


(alternatively, you could remove the motivating force behind H4H altogether. ;))

Again, there's no real way to stop people making bad levels for trophy. A full thermometer, you say? That's not hard. Just start making incredibly odd shapes and copy them over and over.

The only way to ensure that people don't ruin LBP by trophy whoring is making some kind of MM Seal of Approval. Media Molecule would have to recognize one of your levels with this mark and that would unlock the Create Trophy. Tons of people would complain about this, though. With millions of levels on LBP, there will be tons of GREAT levels that would be overlooked. If a creator gets the MM seal of approval (like hearting a creator), then they would be able to give other levels it, but even THEN people WOULD abuse it.

I think they should get rid of trophies. The only people who care about trophies are the people ruining the game, but I understand that MM want all the sales they can get, even if it's from the trophy whoring crowd.

Personally, I'd be happier if they gave me something in-game to show off to my friends besides costumes. I played RE5 a lot just to show off my infinite ammo RPG.

Getting rid of all trophies based on hearts would completely get rid of H4H. Except the few who do it just for bragging rights.

That's the best option in my opinion. I know they aren't going to just get rid of a trophy, but if it was never there in the first place H4H would barely be a problem.

You need to play and finish the level before rating it and hearting it. This is first and foremost.
I had my level played 20 times in 10 minutes without being finished once (it's impossible to finish my level in 10 minutes) and the rating was brought to 1.
This kills the level and the works.

If there's an H4H just don't play it and don't bother about it, H4Hers are a lesser problem for me.

Of course the phenomenon is created by bad trophy design. Media Molecule really didn't think through their stuff here.

Sadly i've never ever seen a game changing a trophy. I wonder if it's even possible. Trophies are something external to the game even if triggered by the game. I suppose they limit the possible mess up by having a guideline to not ever modify a trophy. This is really the type of thing we will be stuck with.

.

hmm, some very interesting thoughts here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awesomemans

Again, there's no real way to stop people making bad levels for trophy. A full thermometer, you say? That's not hard. Just start making incredibly odd shapes and copy them over and over.

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Yep, I agree people would do that.

But as I said before, I actually think that would be better than what's happening right now. What's worse: 1 trash level which goes unnoticed by the community, or 100 "play my level" and H4H spam messages?


I'm vaguely optimistic that Sony could patch the trophy. I've seen Valve do similar things on their Steam platform to solve problems like this. Although I guess there's no reason to think the systems are in any way similar. :/



I think the biggest flaw in my suggestion is as plasmavore said... It would make it really, really easy to win a Gold trophy.
But IMO, one nonsensical trophy would be a fair price to pay to stop the online spam which plagues LBP.

I never really cared for trophies - probably based on the fact my data was copied from another user so I couldn't unlock them :p
I worked out that I would have every trophy MINUS the mgs ones and create, thus no platinum. But I'm alright with that, besides the fact that my account will never really unlock the trophy I wouldn't want it just because basicaly I told someone to go get it for me. It'd lead to sleepless nights and guilt whenever I turned on the PS3. People may think " Just because I'm not gifted at creating levels means I will never get the satisfaction of fully completing the game." Well that's partially how I feel but if I were to get the trophy I'd want it to be because I created a jaw-dropping level. But unfortunately not everyone is as 'sincere' as me ;) so there will always be people h4hing for the pleasure of completing the game, all I can say is I'm glad I'm not one of them...

one possible plan for wanting to make a good map but get the trophy: just make a level, make sure it's perfect, then way up in the sky where no players can see anything, just make loads of dark matter. it's a win-win situation, you get the trophy, players get a good map.

The themometer can't be full last time I checked :rolleyes:

If it was changed to 'full thermometer' it would have to be 95-99% or something.