Low(est) Thermo Set-Reset

This object showcase serves two purposes. One, to show off the new set-reset switch that I just came up with; two, to rub it in rtm's face. :p

***See below for an even lower thermo/better solution!***
:blush:

Anyways, I have been able to make a set-reset using only two pieces of material. I had to take advantage of the fact that two opposing pistons of equal speed and strength will remain at rest (there's a bit more to it, but it works here), as well as the fact that two pistons whose sum strength exceeds 10 will overpower a strength 10 winch.

For those who learn with pictures:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6456/aphoto46.jpg

This is the default setup for the gate, which is FALSE. Notice that there is a grab switch on the DM which is attached to the top piston, strength 7. This is effectively forcing the top piston to continuously push outward.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2200/aphoto47.jpg

This is the configuration after the left grab-switch has been activated. This is known as the "Set" portion of the Set-Reset. Notice that the green magnetic key is now giving a TRUE output. The strong winch is responsible for this action.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3353/aphoto48.jpg

This is the configuration after the right grab switch has been activated. This is known as the "Reset" portion. Notice that the output is again FALSE. The piston in the middle is responsible for this action, which is also strength 7.

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The idea here is that the two strength 7 pistons are pushing opposite of one another, and therefore remain stationary. When the winch contracts, with a strength of 10, it disturbs the balance to the two offset pistons, thereby pulling the cardboard to the left.

When the piston attached to the right grab switch is activated, it inverts, thereby working with the other piston, pushing the block back to the right. When this happens, the pistons together have an effective strength of 14, thereby taking precedence over the winch (which means that the device favors the reset in the event that both inputs are triggered at once).

Neat, eh? Questions... just ask.

:)

Edit: I think I may have just sorted out a way to do it without the DM grab switch.

hm, never thought that you could add the strength of pistons and winches to make an overpowering sum

Turns out you don't need to. I was being silly... :rolleyes:

Here is what I deem the lowest thermo method possible:

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3715/aphoto49.jpg

I just ripped the winch and the grab switch from design and it still works. The basic idea is the same. Note, though, that because the pistons have equal and opposite strength, the block is essentially floating there - so it won't work vertically! A potential way around this is to just use pink floaty for the material, or to just keep it horizontal.

My argument for the lowest thermo set-reset possible is that we need at least one moving part (check), and we need at least 2 connectors (check). I can't think of a way to do it with a single connector.

Nice work!
Dont know how much thermo you'll save by using this method :) but its very cool!

A question: how reliable is the two piston setup? I have my doubts about it.. hmm will have to check it out later when i get home:D

BTW:
How would you construct a Toggle/Reset switch.
Which would have two inputs.
Input 1: toggle between TRUE and FALSE
Input 2: reset to FALSE if TRUE.

I've been able to construct one of these but the logic was quite chunky and i want one that is more like "one-piece".. like the one rtm talks about in his Implied logic blog.

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Originally Posted by Littlebigdude805

hm, never thought that you could add the strength of pistons and winches to make an overpowering sum

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamland

A question: how reliable is the two piston setup? I have my doubts about it.. hmm will have to check it out later when i get home:D.

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Exceptionally so. I've been doing experimentation with summation of forces on piston/winch combinations for months. Never encountered any issues. Note that the device in the second post is a stripped down version of my sackperson tracker from the logic pack (which similarly works on a principle of summation of forces) it simply has the breaking piston removed as you don't need to stop it in a middle position. @littleBigDude, I cover a fair amount of this summation of forces stuff in my Logic Blog and the Logic Pack also has a few examples of such techniques.

edit- actually, you can occasionally get creeping motions with 0-strength pistons (which is what this becomes at rest) when they get jammed at the end of their motion. Though I think that is more and issue when used with winches. I'll have to try and remember what causes that effect.


Funny, as soon as I saw your OP, I was going to post the solution you came to in the end. Great minds eh? Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is.

As for lowest thermo.... well I'm not convinced you're saving anything overall vs the one in the logic pack, and the OP is actually distinctly higher thermo than various other designs. But I'll let you off, seeing as you redeemed yourself while I was asleep :p

edit- though in context of a network, the one in your second post will probs actually turn out to be best, now I think about it.

edit-edit: bah, I need to stop posting before coffee. The two pistons method is indeed the lowest thermo going, I uh, imagined an extra component that doesn't exist, is why I got confused. It can't do vertical motion or be attached to a moving object, but I do believe I'll be adding this one to my list of techniques...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamland

How would you construct a Toggle/Reset switch.
Which would have two inputs.
Input 1: toggle between TRUE and FALSE
Input 2: reset to FALSE if TRUE.

I've been able to construct one of these but the logic was quite chunky and i want one that is more like "one-piece".. like the one rtm talks about in his Implied logic blog.

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Have I shown you the flipper based toggle? It can be modified with an extra winch to force a reset if desired. I will get on that later today and post a picture.

Now, my next task is to figure out how rtm made that 'single moving part' toggle...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rtm223

Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is.

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Wait, which thing? The set-reset that just flops around? Haha, I love that thing! You don't like it...?

:p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by comphermc

Have I shown you the flipper based toggle? It can be modified with an extra winch to force a reset if desired. I will get on that later today and post a picture.

Now, my next task is to figure out how rtm made that 'single moving part' toggle...

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No you haven't! don't keep these cool stuff from me:D

Isn't the emitter toggle a "single moving part" toggle? since it emits a dm...
Probably not but technically it is:D

I consider anything emitted to be moving (moving into existence from nothingness???).

:p

No, but he did it with winches and pistons and a single piece of DM. I'm not sure, but the flipper one may be lower thermo anyways...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by comphermc

I consider anything emitted to be moving (moving into existence from nothingness???).

:p

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LOL..

yeah i figured out that you didnt mean an emitting toggle.. :) just had to put it out there;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by comphermc

I consider anything emitted to be moving (moving into existence from nothingness???).

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You might do, but the thermo doesn't. And whose opinion do you think I care more about? Hmmm? :p

Quote:

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No, but he did it with winches and pistons and a single piece of DM. I'm not sure, but the flipper one may be lower thermo anyways...

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I think the two are almost identical individually, but the emitter one has the issue of not playing nicely with implied logic, at least, not until after the first emission.


Anyways, I sent you that toggle ages ago, is just flipper winches. It's a scary switch that one :(

But with this solution the reset input doesn't have a priority over the set - what I'm trying to say is that if both inputs are 1 nothing happens

I can make it go lower. Delete one corner from each rectangle you have because the shape with the lowest thermo is a triangle. (o^_^)b

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shadowheaven

But with this solution the reset input doesn't have a priority over the set - what I'm trying to say is that if both inputs are 1 nothing happens

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Good point there, this could very well be a consideration. Honestly though, I normally find that the specifics of the inputs mean that it's rarely an issue. At least this is predictable - whichever input was previously activated will take precedence.

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Originally Posted by Kinetik07

I can make it go lower. Delete one corner from each rectangle you have because the shape with the lowest thermo is a triangle. (o^_^)b

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I've had the thermo overheat by deleting veteces from rectangles, so I'm highly dubious about that :( The complex shapes thermo is still very much a mystery!

Nice. It would be an almost unnoticable smidge lower thermo if you used dissolve for the cardboard piece too... DM is a requisite material, and if a grab is present, it might as well be dissolve, and chances are everything in the logic for a level will be dissolve too, so 1 less material used will make it lower thermo when put into use... but obviously the thing is fantastic anyway, and anybody using it for advanced purposes would just change the material if they were trying to milk their thermo to the last possible drop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamland

BTW:
How would you construct a Toggle/Reset switch.
Which would have two inputs.
Input 1: toggle between TRUE and FALSE
Input 2: reset to FALSE if TRUE.

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Like this:

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6752/aphoto51.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9506/aphoto52.jpg

As promised, it has a one-shot toggle element, but a forced reset triggered by a second input (the right grab switch). The idea here is an exploit of the minimum latency of switches, at .05 seconds. The flipper piston (the one on the top), plays "hand-off" with the other block. Try it out, it's quite tricky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rtm223

Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is.

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You mean, this?

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5773/aphoto53.jpg

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7348/aphoto54r.jpg

Yeah, I made some modifications and it is no longer all over the place. It actually works very well, and is just as low on the thermo as the above solution. Advantage: you can have one winch again take precedence over the other. The drawback? Reliability may be a concern, but the new design appears rock solid. I know... "It's not griddy enough."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shadowheaven

But with this solution the reset input doesn't have a priority over the set - what I'm trying to say is that if both inputs are 1 nothing happens

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By adding an additional winch, of course. Remember +1 winch < +1 material block, so it's still an improvement. Like so:

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/8206/aphoto50.jpg

Now the additional winch works with the piston that pulls to the left, but doesn't affect the way it functions otherwise. I even made the block dissolve to appease Ninja, even though the benefits are likely minimal (see Thermo Guide, heading Materials).

So... let me get this straight... a switch on a flipper piston set to 0,1 sec ignores everything while flipping, but not while going back into place? Basically like if it teleported?

Um... sorta?

The idea is that when the it flips out, the other piston extends... While it is extending, the flipper one starts contracting again. Since they are moving quickly opposite of one another, they move too quickly for the switch to register. This is because the game only "refreshes" every .05 seconds.

:)

It looks cool...

But does it play Minesweeper?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KernelM

It looks cool...

But does it play Minesweeper?

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Only on Beginner. Intermediate and Expert coming soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by comphermc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rtm223

Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is.

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You mean, this?

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5773/aphoto53.jpg

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7348/aphoto54r.jpg

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Honestly, if you'd sent me that, I wouldn't have gone with abomination! Honestly, if it were glass, I'd say that it would be perfectly stable. It isn't griddy enough, but I'm sure we can live with that ;)

Quote:

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By adding an additional winch, of course. Remember +1 winch < +1 material block, so it's still an improvement. Like

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Don't you just love it when the anwser involves a winch? Although, I have no idea what the bolded part is supposed to mean. You're basically up to the same component count as the piston-supported SR here (one piece of DM off), and lose the imagined stability of a feedback loop. Is a neat little design though, no doubt about it.