Quotes. They're nice ways to refer to people. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Incinerator22
I know. I don't like it either, but apperantly our "research" tells us that rep is a factor in a site's positivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajdaj03
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Quotes. They're nice ways to refer to people. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Incinerator22
I know. I don't like it either, but apperantly our "research" tells us that rep is a factor in a site's positivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajdaj03
I think removing negative rep would help the situation. That way, no one will get angry trying to find who negatively repped them. Also, it if a post is bad enough to warrant the use of negative rep, then it probably should be reported. So there is no real use for the negative rep button. The "Thanks" button should be kept though, it's very useful and saves unnecessary posts that were created for the sole purpose of saying "Thanks!".
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpanther
How about only displaying the rep bars on the user profile?
Without negative rep, someone can be really rude and really helpful at separate times and still have very high rep.
and with rep people will bad rep me for my opinion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incinerator22
Both very good points. However, I stand by what I said. If someone is rude, then they can be reported and if they continue the behavior, they will be banned. No need for negative rep.Quote:
Originally Posted by HydraulicWaRiOr
Removing negative rep will also relieve the issue of negatively repping someone just because you disagree. In my opinion, someone shouldn't be negatively repped just because that person did not agree with them, that's not the intent of the negative rep. Negative rep just isn't necessary and is wide open to be abused.
What is the point of rep? [honest question]
To show who's helpful and respectable? This is already often untrue. If negative rep is removed, it will be more untrue.
Anyway, I'm logging off for tonight. Peace.
Totally agree with Tim on this one.
His first post was bang on.
I think removing negative rep would be the best idea. There are some people who go around negative repping people for no good reason. So people try to get revenge on others and this just goes in a circle of people giving negative rep when none of them deserved it.
Incinerator, don't be taking this as an attack on you, but you made the best points so far, so I'm obviously gonna respond to you :p You also came at it from a particular angle namely, "what good does the rep system do?". I'm gonna come from a slightly different viewpoint of asking the quesiton "What would removing the rep system achieve?"...
I think that a few little green pixels on someone's profile are far less of an issue for negativity than the general "looking down on the n00bs" that occurs naturally. I've seen plenty of lints trolled off these forums by overzealous members because they said the wrong thing in one of their early posts. Mentioning bomb survivals, crowns, h4h is generally enough to get a gang of other members jumping on them with the abuse. They just didn't quite get the feel of the site straight away and within hours there is a page of abuse and trolling following them. This happens regularly, and there are a number of members I could name who consistently troll the newbies. It's like they are looking for an excuse to attack someone. That's the sort of thing that will make the biggest difference to whether someone new feels uncomfortable or not, the way in which they are treated on the site by any other member.Quote:
Originally Posted by Incinerator22
Do people really think like this? That they can't be bothered to help others because there is no reward involved? Sadly, they probably do. But then this is another way that the rep system works. If you believe that people are more likely to help each other if there is rep in it for them, then having rep is clearly a good thing. And there are enough of us around who can answer newbie questions and are willing to do so that the newbie questions still get answered. So no one actually loses out from this.Quote:
And if you go to a new member on the help thread who doesn't know what reputation is, and you choose to spend your free-time helping him, you can expect that you won't get any reputation.
If people aren't capable of thinking for themselves and actually analysing the topic, or the points being made, then they will always lean to whichever side of the argument seems more popular, regardless of what means they have to measure such popularity. Admittedly, the thanks under posts is an easy indicator of this, more so than the number of posts for and against. But the visible thanks also indicates so many other things. What kind of viewpoints people have, what things interest them, or that they care about, what kind of sense of humour they have. You can actually learn a fair amount about what makes other members tick from the psots that they thank - try it as a basic exercise in psychology, it's really quite interesting.Quote:
The amount of thanks under any post can sway someone's opinion to defend the winning side of an argument rather than the losing side.
I don't think it affected his behaviour at all in any sense and why would it? He was gonna be an agressive, inconsiderate troll regardless of the circumstances. He is a pretty extreme example, so it's understandable that the minor incentive of rep wouldn't affect him. However, this example goes against your belief that the amount of rep that someone has represents nothing, in this case, it absolutely represented how much of an idiot he was. He was subsequently banned from the site for persistent bad behaviour.Quote:
The main argument for keeping repuatation seems to be that it motivates good behaviour. Again, I'll use an older member as an example to avoid a flame war. What about Vidi-Vici? He joked about his rep. He had three red bars and called himself the king of bad rep. It didn't affect his behaviour at all because he knew it was meaningless.
Again, at the other end of the spectrum, the max rep members help people anyway, so again, the reputation is a good indicator of people's contributions to the site. Yes, it's generally linked to how long you've been here, but that still indicates overall, historic, contributions. And it's perfectly possible to gain rep very quickly if you are a strong contributor to the site, both in terms of ingame and social contributions (Aya, for example).Quote:
Quite a few of our most helpful members have maximum reputation but their consistency in helping others show that reputation has never been their motivation for being who they are.
So in terms of your belief that reputation indicates nothing, I think that is slightly misplaced. Of course it's not completely accurate, but that's not important. It does give an indication of someone's overall contributions to the site. You may think that is elitist, which is a fair point, but all social systems have forms of elitism, that occur naturally, especially on the internet. No matter where you go, being new in an established community will feel a little bit awkward. I had a case of something similar over at LBL, where someone basically posted that there was no point in me posting my solution(s) to a problem, when they could just wait for mnniska to get there! This is just what happens, because they didn't know who I was, I was just another newbie. The same sort of thing happens here, with better known members and would continue to happen, with or without the reputation system. Same thing happens with any skilled / famous creator, they get bumped to an elite bracket regardless of how much they contribute to LBPC.
You won't get away from elitism, no matter how hard you try, it's going to happen. But at least the rep system is relatively fair, anyone can build their rep over time, if they actually think that it matters, and naturally those people who contribute most will gain rep quicker. Is that such a bad thing.
-------------------------------------
So, do I think that the rep system is important? Not really. Do I think that we need it? No.
But it does serve a number of purposes, it does give a vague indication of each member's contributions to the site, it allows for various social niceties and give quite a lot of insight into the way other members think - which is very important in social relations.
However, regardless of how any of us feels about the reputation system, let's just take a step back and think about the purpose of this thread. It stems from the consideration thread and is being proposed as a means of fixing up some of the negativity on the site. Removing the rep system will not suddenly improve everyone's attitudes towards each other. No one is suddenly gonna become a nicer person because the rep system has gone. We won't lose concepts of elitism, we won't prevent new members from feeling nervous in the community, those members who don't like to help others if they don't get a reward for it will continue to not help others, and those members who help, just because, will continue to do so, discussions will largely be won by those who can gather the most support (or who can shout loudest). Removing the reputation system will improve nothing in terms of the general attitudes and behaviours of people on the site.
We all like to jump on a "quick fix" when problems arise, we all like to point the finger of blame, because it's easier than taking responsibility for issues ourselves. The way people behave towards each other is what will make a difference here. You want new members to feel more welcome? Post in their intro threads, respond to their posts in the same way you would anyone else's, if they screw up on netiquette then politely explain it to them, rather than posting a string of "fail" and "facepalm.jpg" and "spam" and "you suck" messages at them.
If people wanna see the rep system gone, then fine, we don't need it and it's not a cornerstone of the community. But don't kid yourselves that it's gonna turn this community into a perfect little utopia or that anything is actually going to change because of it.
I'm not even going to read through idiotic responses, but I will add what I wrote to CyberSora:
...I don't really feel like spending two hours writing back a scathing reply to idiots who want the rep system removed, but I just want to say this: people really need to grow a pair. Honestly, if you get a bad rep, it's because you're an a**. If the rep system is abused against you, guess what! Your REAL friends will know the type of person you are, and that's all that matters. Your starting post talks about the immaturity of those who abuse the system, but I'd rather have hundreds of them than one idiot who would remove the system just because they can't win at it. It's forums socialism - no one wins, no one loses, and doing anything well is pointless because you never get recognized.
...thanks again for alerting me to this debate - like the real government about to turn to socialism, I can only hope that common sense will prevail.
To Everyone Else: You know what to do... let it go. I'm on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBulletBill
I don't care a lot about rep, but it is convenient in some cases. I can only remember so many names (or rather, avatars, I get confused when people change them :p ), for the rest the rep system gives me some sort of context. For example, if someone posts something... questionable, low rep tells me they're probably trolling, so I can just ignore it.
So keep the rep, but don't worry too much about it. :)
I don't think what rtm223 wrote can be improved upon. It said EXACTLY what my feelings were about rep in the consideration thread. I have very rarely seen it abused... the end result seems to pretty sum up how useful/negative a person is... and it is definately a way to even gauge how your actions are affecting others.
An additional note - when I first came to this site about a year and a half ago, I THOUGHT I was experiencing elitism. Hardly anyone would look at level threads I posted, and I felt looked-down-upon.
But, I made a remarkable discovery (although it should have been obvious).... you only get out of it what you put into it. I tried being helpful to other creators and give them useful feedback, and suddenly they start doing the same to you. Next thing you know, you have friends and it's a lot of fun. I don't really believe there is a problem with elitism on this site any more.... at least, I don't see it. I've had people give messages on my showcase threads that said seemed almost sheepish in asking me to give feedback on THEIR level, and I was surprised - I felt they should EXPECT me to give them feedback, not have to ask for it.
Aw... must... resist... temptation...Quote:
Originally Posted by comphermc
... Anyway... neg rep probably should go no matter what methinks, but, uh... yeah >->
@BlueBulletBill
Your "rants" never seize to amaze me. :)
Yes, the members can just see the real friend in you, but if that's the case, why do you need a rep system. You said it yourself; your friends know who you are, so why should some colored bars tell you who you are?
I know you're saying that removing a wonderful system like this is a bad idea, but do you really feel like you're talking for everyone? This is why I posted the poll, so members both new and old can finally decide if all this is worth it. We had fights, we had arguments, and we had rep attacks (including myself), and now people are fed up with the negativity that still lurks around the site. So we're deciding not only to remove the system because of bad behavior, but because do we really care about it's meaning enough to keep going on with it?
Personally, I think you're right about people who have bad rep should just suck it up, but then what about rep victims? Do they judge contests and participate in activities? No, because new members don't know if they're really victims, or just plain out jerks. And so what you say, well this is a person we're talking about. Can you honestly say that you won’t be disappointed or even a bit sad to see some red bars on you? I know I'll be sad, because those little red bars are a big sign of rejection from the other members, and this feeling can leave a person feel like an outcast. So maybe we need to remove the system completely, or maybe just remove negative rep. I don't know, but it's something I think we should reflect on more often.
Peace
I vote negative rep should be removed, because people can abuse it, and if you actually do something that bad, moderators should get involved.
I've been thinking about this, and here's what I've got in mind: I would like to integrate the Thanks button and rep more closely. I was thinking of doing away with the ability of adding rep manually altogether, so that the only way to affect someone's rep was through the Thanks button. This would make rep a thoroughly positive system - since rep could only be used to "reward" others, there would be much less tension surrounding the system. It would also simplify things - since there would be only one way to affect someone's rep, the system would be much more streamlined.
Let me know what you guys think about this - I'm considering putting the changes into effect soon (within the next week or so), so I'd like to get a feel for what your thoughts are on this before I make a final decision. (And, yes, I have read over the previous replies, so I have a rather good grasp on how each of you will respond, but I'd like to see what you think now that you know what's been going on in my head specifically.)
Well, this is going to be interesting. :)