Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowcrazy
Alex mentioned in atleast one gamescom vid that you could publish a level that is just a bunch of links to levels you think are cool so collab should be possible too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShamgarBlade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowcrazy
Alex mentioned in atleast one gamescom vid that you could publish a level that is just a bunch of links to levels you think are cool so collab should be possible too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShamgarBlade
I'm pretty sure you can, *mewQuote:
Originally Posted by Shadowcrazy
but i can't promise it.
Except... Won't more money only really come from more players??? So 20 (or actually 40 now, so there is an increase) slots per player seems like it makes sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerZero
Anyways, I think Sony always ran the servers. After all LBP was their product, not MMs
This thread doesn't seem to make sense.
" Do you think counting levels instead of games could stifle creativity? "
So... You're asking for a slot per series... ? This would change everything, and even if the current system could be improved, it's not that bad, and as Rtm said, everyone managed to get by :)
I think it's practical to have "levels within levels and be considered a game rather than a singular level.
Say i was to make a music level, then capture the song and put it as a prize bubble in another music level. I would have two music levels in one level. It's generally the same concept. Only difference it's not really "official", and I don''t think it should be a big deal for MM to do something like that.
If they are marketing the idea of making "games" then they really need to give us the tools to truly do that, and I think that involves allowing a series of levels counting as one level or "game". It seems to be the best choice.
I don't understand the first part of what you're saying, but in response to the latter part: anything this missing "tool" can do, you can already do, it just takes up more of you publishing slots. So it's not a missing tool at all. What if Square had refuses to publish Final Fantasy VII because the Playstation didn't "give them the tools" to put 3 CD's worth of game data on a single CD?
IMHO, if there is one tool missing to truly allow you to make games, it's persistence (storing data between levels or play sessions).
But don't you put the level link IN THE OTHER LEVEL? So why do you half to publish every part of the game when you can just publish the game with the level links inside?
Erm... so that people can PLAY it? A level has to be published on the server for others to access it, you can't link players to levels that only exist on your moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jord-bord
@Rogar
I'm not sure if your responding to me but I'll assume you are.
The "tool" I am referring to is the tool to make a collaboration of levels into one single level, rather than making each level of a series individual.
The example I gave explains how we CAN already do something like that, even in LBP1.
To further elaborate on the concept, I'll use another example.
Say you wanted to create a series and you made the first part of the series (one level) that filled up the whole thermo. Then you were to make the second part of your series and then capture that entire level and put it in a prize bubble and put it in the FIRST part of the level. (it's possible).
You would have two complete levels in ONE level. You don't have to take up two slots of the 20 publishable levels you have, just ONE. It's almost the exact same concept. Only difference would be that instead of using prize bubbles, you would use a special tool that allowed you to collaborate each level of your series into just one level or "game".
MM's whole marketing scheme for LBP2 is to make GAMES not a SERIES OF LEVELS! LBP1 has levels and LBP2 has GAMES!
I think it's practical and really shouldn't be much of a hassle for MM.
You definitely will not use all 20 slots. Really, you won't.
Even if you do anyway, you could just make another account and use the cheat to bypass all the tutorials.
Oh, I see what you mean now! Does that really work? Huge prizes would add to the thermo, wouldn't they? Unless file size on the server is not limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
Still, that does not make it a tool necessary for games. It's merely a tool to help you fit more games in your 20 publishing slots.
That's a very dangerous thing to say when you haven't looked at the source code. Maybe their architecture makes it really easy, or maybe it would require a total rewrite. The latter seems quite likely, as multiple levels in one level goes completely against the current concept of levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
See, that's just it. It's not a "game" if it allows no more than what levels on LBP1 does. Somehow you got the idea that "levels" in LBP2 = games just because you can link levels together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
That's like if I bought a DVD then super charged it and called it a blu-ray because you add more on it and do more with it than a regular DVD. It's still a DVD...
Well...that's probably a bad example...but here's my point.
I remember reading something that MM said during an interview. They wanted the community to create games on it's own merit. Like they would be a good as retail games basically. So I think the most sensible way to achieve that goal is to give us, the community, the tools to make that possible. Games nowadays, whether they be platformers, shooters, RPGs, they all have one thing in common, they give us 10 to 60 hours of content in ONE DISC! (and yes even xbox's crappy DVDs still give a wealth of content.)
So when I hear the word "game", I vision each "level" (game) in LBP2 to be comparable to a retail game and guess what? I haven't picked up one retail game that consisted of only 1 level! Whether it's an arcade game or a progressive game like an RPG.
So, as far as I'm concerned, LBP2 doesn't have games, just levels like LBP1...
How is it that different? The only difference between the current concept and my theoretical one is that levels that are linked within a level don't count as a level by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
Plus MM hired programming gods imo and I reading remember somewhere they said there really isn't much fixation in LBP2. They said they wanted everything in LBP2 to be flexible and prone to change.
It doesn't "seem" hard but as you say I don't know the source code so I can't really make any just judgments.
I think if maybe there are server issues than MM can limit the amount of levels linked to say 10.
I really hope they at least try to do something like this. It would probably make a lot of creators happy.
In this marketing scheme, 'games' mostly means something other than a platformer.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
Look at it logically and what you're arguing makes no sense. You feel that you should be able to fit multiple, thermo filled, long story levels into a single level slot because they follow on and it counts as a 'game'. And then there's people like me who plan on making small minigames and survival challenges, each taking up very little thermo and level space, and each using one level slot. I'd class each of those minigames as a seperate 'game', so how can it possibly be fair for me to only publish 20 small levels yet you can get away with publishing 100 long levels?!?
EDIT:
*facepalm*Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
I think you seriously need to rethink your vision of what a 'game' is.
It's not what I think, it's what MM said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclearfish
http://playstationlifestyle.net/2010...eir-own-merit/
That's what I base my definition of "games" on...
Now to argue your first point:
First off, what you said about some creators making "20 level long" levels and others making small mini-games type levels in no way confides in your point.
I've played plenty of levels that took me over 50 minutes to complete on LBP1...and I've played levels that took me 10 seconds to complete...I played beefy story-based levels...and small mini-games. Why do you think there should be this "equality" law? Some people like to make really long levels and some people don't. Do you think one should be limited because of the other?
The concept I'm trying to promote is that a "series of levels" shouldn't be considered games....simple as that... If MM wants people to make "games" on their own merit they need to give them much more than the tools they have on LBP1...because then it's pretty much LBP 1.5.
I don't see why MM needs to make things "fair". Is it fair that I can't make levels as good as steve biggs? No...they should just cater to everyone's needs. :)
EDIT: If someone wants to make an epic 100 hour game, then by god let him do it! If someone wants to make a simple game of checkers, then by god let him do it! Somehow, it seems like your saying "if all I wanna do is make mini-games, then everyone should only be able to make mini-games.
And yes, games does mean more than plat formers...hopefully much more...
I think you're missing my point. It simply makes NO sense for a minigame to take up the same amount of server space as 20 hour multi-level 'game'. If anything, the creators who make standalone minigames should be the ones to get more space to publish more levels.Quote:
First off, what you said about some creators making "20 level long" levels and others making small mini-games type levels in no way confides in your point. I've played plenty of levels that took me over 50 minutes to complete on LBP1...and I've played levels that took me 10 seconds to complete...I played beefy story-based levels...and small mini-games. Why do you think there should be this "equality" law anyway? Some people like to make really long levels and some people don't. Do you think one should be limited because of the other?
And yes, obviously I think there should be equality. Why shouldn't there be? Everybody gets 20 levels slots, and in each of those levels they can fit in as much as the thermo and level space allows. If your 'game' won't fit in a single level, you make it and publish it as multiple levels and link them together. Everyone gets the same space, everyone chooses how they want to use it. Simples.
And why should 20 full levels not be enough to make a 'game'? You have to make a decision. You EITHER use all your level slots on one epic level series (or 'game'), OR you use them for individual levels (or, more likely, a mixture).Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
And anways, that comment from Mark isn't really relevant. Nowhere does he say that a 'game' has to be several hours long. All he says is he hopes someone will make something so good that websites might review it for its own merit.
Now, I'm going to go back to playing Doodle Jump on my iPhone for a bit. But, oh wait... I suppose that doesn't count as a 'game' because it's only 59p and only has one level. Bugger.
LOL as far as I'm concerned, you and I have two different definitions of games.
What you said: It simply makes NO sense for a minigame to take up the same amount of server space as 20 hour multi-level 'game'
Why doesn't it make sense? Again look at steve biggs levels, or any of those "scary story-based levels and then look at some noobs level that consist of nothing but a badly crafted line of dark matter. Do they not take up the same amount of server space? Are you saying(or saying I'm saying) that just because a game is simple it shouldn't be considered a game?
What you said: Now, I'm going to go back to playing Doodle Jump on my iPhone for a bit. But, oh wait... I suppose that doesn't count as a 'game' because it's only 59p and only has one level. Bugger.
Whoa whoa whoa! Now your confusing me. Where did I say a game HAD to be 20 hours long in order to be considered a game? I said that IF MM wanted creators to make a game that could be reviewed by professional critics, then they have to give us better tools than what is available. I'm really bad at getting my point across aren't I?
Indeed, but it fits perfectly to demonstrate my point. :p Whether a movie is released on VHS, DVD or Bluray, it is still a movie. Whether a game is released on floppy disk (or 10), DVD, via the internet, or published in one LBP2 slot or 20, it is still a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
I see you have a very narrow definition of game, one that is very different from what I think Mm's idea of a game is. I've read the article you linked to, but to me that doesn't say they actually want people to be able to build a full retail game in LBP2, let alone any game imaginable. It is clearly meant as an ideal, something you strive for in the design of LBP2 and its tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
Anyway, if someone is mad enough to want to make an epic 100 hour game, persistence will be their first and foremost problem, because no one is going to sit through 100 hours in one go. And even then, space is not a problem, because they can just make more accounts to publish the rest of the levels on.
What I'm saying is that we should all be given the same space (one publish slot, one thermo and an empty to level to build in) to use however we want. If I want to only make a small minigame, fine, that's my decision. But what you're suggesting is basically a way to 'cheat' the system and squeeze multiple levels into a single publish slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
Well...Quote:
What you said: Now, I'm going to go back to playing Doodle Jump on my iPhone for a bit. But, oh wait... I suppose that doesn't count as a 'game' because it's only 59p and only has one level. Bugger.
Whoa whoa whoa! Now your confusing me. Where did I say a game HAD to be 20 hours long in order to be considered a game?
I know you didn't exactly say it has to be 20 hours to be considered a game, but I'll let that quote speak for itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
Again, I say that we already have good enough tools. Surely, SURELY 20 level slots is enough? Yes, you may only be able to make one big 'game', but as I said in my last post, you have to choose which you'd rather make: one big game, or 20 smaller ones.Quote:
I said that IF MM wanted creators to make a game that could be reviewed by professional critics, then they have to give us better tools than what is available.
Besides, critics review all kinds of games, even small free ones.
I see I'm very bad at getting my point across...
Actually, this is different from my metaphor. To my perception, your point was that a series of levels was a game. My point was that in LBP2, there shouldn't be levels, only games. When I said it was a bad metaphor, I meant it was hard to grasp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
Ok...maybe it is just an ideal...but what do professional critics review? Retail games and Digital games right? So I was under the impression that MM would give creators the tools to do that. I thought they would put that little dream into effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
Well, not cheat perse, but instead of creators publishing "levels", they could publish "games" that consist of levels. I think that's pretty much what I was trying to say the whole time heh...My point in one sentence :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nuclearfish
Well...since I'm being double teamed by you and Rogar, I think this will be my last post :\
Well, I know what you're trying to say. But it's just not a good solution. I'm happy with the current system, but I suppose that could be improved too.Quote:
Originally Posted by comishguy67
My ideal solution would be to have no 'publish slots' as such, but an overall file size limit, such as 20mb. A full level may take up 1mb, but something a lot smaller may only take up 200kb. As long as you have room you can publish as many levels as you like.
I know that doesn't really solve the epic hours long 'game' problem, as you could still only publish 20 full levels, but it would be better for people like myself who prefer to make smaller levels or games.