Swastika in LBP2? D:

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11-03-2010
Tap Dat App

Swastika in LBP2? D:

First off, I'd like to say that it took a lot of courage for me to post this. I am afraid it could damage my reputation in the LBP Community and even I honestly don't think that this really is what I'm observing it to be, but I thought the Community should still be alerted of this observation. I don't mean to startup any controversy or rumors, but I am a Reform Jewish American and although I'm not directly offended, I am still...a little bit concerned.

I was looking at LBP2 stuff and was going through some fan site kits, when I noticed what appears to be a Gear in a Windmill but of which seems to scarily resemble a Swastika, the symbol that was used by the German Nazi Party. The "New Life" Sticker is Pictured Below in Full Resolution:

http://i51.tinypic.com/34pf8ko.png

Here it is again, with the controversial part highlighted for those who can't seem to find it. Again, not trying to start-up drama, this may have just been a result of over-examining it:

http://i56.tinypic.com/mkc3mv.png

I understand LittleBigPlanet is a game for people of all types & ages, and I love that about it. So obviously, no one would think that they did this on purpose...unless it somehow slipped in? I HONESTLY doubt that this was intentional in anyway, but I really felt like this should just be pointed out. Please do not flame me. Thank You for Your Support & Understanding Towards Me Feeling Alarmed.
11-03-2010
Silverleon

Quote:

Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period and throughout the Iron Age and Classical Antiquity. It remains widely used in Eastern religions, specifically in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism

Quote:

a mark made on persons and things to denote good luck.

Why do people keep thinking it means evil or asomething wrong anyways...
Just because the NAZI used it doesn't mean its a bad symbol in itself.

In short, its not a 'bad sign' or that means anything 'evil.'

Its a good luck sign, and that's all it should be seen as. :)

(Seriously people, you keep giving too much credit to Nazis for a lot of stuff...)
11-03-2010
Plasmavore

This is the Nazi Swastika:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._clean.svg.png

While this is a picture of the actual Swastika, a symbol the Nazi's used for their symbol (above). It was originally a sign meaning peace:
http://www.1uptravel.com/flag/images/r/rel-kr-b.gif

As you can see, the LBP Swastika resembles the second picture more than the first (in terms of the direction of the lines). Although it is pretty obvious to see the inspiration for the picture.. But you have to think about when in time the Neon Propaganda levels are set. In a time where this symbol was seen everywhere. I'm sure they did not mean to harm anyone, it's Mm! :)

Sorry if I somehow offended anyone. This kind of stuff is always a little controversial.
11-03-2010
Morgana25

While I see what your getting at I don't think it's some sinister plot to put Nazi symbols into the game.

What I think it is, is a symbol that resembles the swastika in a few ways but has been altered sufficiently to not represent that symbol.

The whole New Life themed stuff seems to pull a lot of style from old propaganda posters from the cold war imo. The group mentality of strength through common work, that sort of vibe. It's not unlike stuff from the former Soviet Union.

I think you have to take this as a reference to our history that they're using to imply what kind of world that particular area is. Sort of like in V for Vendetta. The government in that film had logos that were hinting at Nazi war propaganda films and that tells the viewer a little more about the nature of the government without spelling it out in words. It's what logos are meant to do.

So ya, I wouldn't sweat it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverleon

Why do people keep thinking it means evil or asomething wrong anyways...
Just because the NAZI used it doesn't mean its a bad symbol in itself.

The symbol itself isn't evil - it's what it was used to represent that is. It's got a lot of meaning for those who were affected by the evil that was Hitler's final solution. So ya, you have to be a little sensitive to people's feelings about it.
11-03-2010
Tap Dat App

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plasmavore

This is the Nazi Swastika:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._clean.svg.png

While this is a picture of the actual Swastika, a symbol the Nazi's used for their symbol (above). It was originally a sign meaning peace:
http://www.1uptravel.com/flag/images/r/rel-kr-b.gif

As you can see, the LBP Swastika resembles the second picture more than the first (in terms of the direction of the lines). Although it is pretty obvious to see the inspiration for the picture.. But you have to think about when in time the Neon Propaganda levels are set. In a time where this symbol was seen everywhere. I'm sure they did not mean to harm anyone, it's Mm! :)

Sorry if I somehow offended anyone. This kind of stuff is always a little controversial.

Some great points there and I do understand that it is set in a specific time period but LBP History doesn't have to have anything to do with Real World History...especially in the case where someone could possibly become offended.
11-03-2010
Plasmavore

Well.. Since the LittleBigPlanet is made up of peoples dreams and thoughts - The Nazis etc would have been what people were thinking about at that time, isn't it?

It's all about the theming... ;)
11-03-2010
TheAffected

To be honest, it looks like a windmill to me.

Maybe you're just over thinking it.
11-03-2010
dxdydz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tap Dat App

First off, I'd like to say that it took a lot of courage for me to post this. I am afraid it could damage my reputation in the LBP Community and even I honestly don't think that this really is what I'm observing it to be, but I thought the Community should still be alerted of this observation. I don't mean to startup any controversy or rumors, but I am a Reform Jewish American and although I'm not directly offended, I am still...a little bit concerned.

I was looking at LBP2 stuff and was going through some fan site kits, when I noticed what appears to be a Gear in a Windmill but of which seems to scarily resemble a Swastika, the symbol that was used by the German Nazi Party. The "New Life" Sticker is Pictured Below in Full Resolution:

http://i51.tinypic.com/34pf8ko.png

Here it is again, with the controversial part highlighted for those who can't seem to find it. Again, not trying to start-up drama, this may have just been a result of over-examining it:

http://i56.tinypic.com/mkc3mv.png

I understand LittleBigPlanet is a game for people of all types & ages, and I love that about it. So obviously, no one would think that they did this on purpose...unless it somehow slipped in? I HONESTLY doubt that this was intentional in anyway, but I really felt like this should just be pointed out. Please do not flame me. Thank You for Your Support & Understanding Towards Me Feeling Alarmed.

And sometimes a cigar's just a cigar, Freud.
11-03-2010
jwwphotos

Wow... I never made the connection and have seen that image a few times. To be honest, when I first saw the picture it reminded me more of an old Norelco electric razor blade (see below pic) until it was pointed in this thread. I doubt what you are concerned about was what they were going for since they want to sell LBP2 to all countries.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Wuu187KBL.jpg
11-03-2010
napero7

The swastika is a pretty simple symbol, you can find it in many places if you really search for it. You should be able to tell when it's intended and not, in this case it's not, if you can even call that a swastika... it totally looks like a windmill to me. The ends are barely bent, a swastika has 90° angles...
11-03-2010
Holguin86

I don't think it looks like a swastika, especially as it has a hole in the middle. I think it looks more like a stylised windmill. Even if you interpret it as a swastika, the context in which it's used is so far remote of Nazi propoganda it's clear that it is not directly printed to offend or relate to the Nazi regime.

I'd hate for this sticker to be removed because of this - the message as a whole is very positive, and it's one of my favourite stickers in the game. It saddened me that the first LBP was compromised because of fears of offence about lyrics to an LBP1 song - I wouldn't want LBP2 to go down the same route.
11-04-2010
Cauan-XV

It is not Swastika... this seems far from the Swastika.
11-04-2010
Syroc

All the world loved Swastika before WWII
11-04-2010
rtm223

Beyond the discussion of whether or not a symbol of any kind should be considered offensive by it's very existance (to which I have to side with the view that context, usage and intent are the things that should define the appropriateness of a symbol).... I'm not seeing a swastika there.

Yes, I can see the shape you are pointing out, but honestly, I think the perceived link with the swastika could well be a manifestation of the viewers' imaginations - remember that while much art uses symbolism and metaphor to convey it's message in subtle ways, it's far from unheard of that audiences project meaning where there is none....

On the side, I love that image, and I do hope that oversensitivity and overactive imaginations don't make it into something ugly that has to be removed :(
11-05-2010
thor

Looks like a pinwheel to me

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/q...e/Pinwheel.jpg http://www.runnerduck.com/images/kc_pinwheel.jpg

In any case, the swastika is a very natural geometric figure. It is composed of only 6 orthogonal lines in a rotationally symmetric pattern. Many drawings will contain it even though it is not obvious. You can draw it without even realising because it's so simple and basic. It's ridiculous that anyone should complain if it's a coincidental occurance.
11-05-2010
v0rtex

While I understand the power of imagery and how painful the swastika can be for some, I think it is a stretch to even project it onto this image. As others have noted, this branching, pinwheel effect is a natural, organic result of many designs and structures. Frankly, my first impression when I look at that windmill structure in the image is a recollection of the old 45 RPM vinyl record inserts (despite the difference in the number of branches):

http://www.sleevetown.com/images/45insert.jpg
(Many here will be too young to even know what these little widgets are for, but for the rest of you... :) )
11-05-2010
coasterfreak1235

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syroc

All the world loved Swastika before WWII

Syroc's honorable age of 105 does come useful here ;)

I, along with the others, don't think that the pic is something to worry about.

Besides, New Life Factory theme has a much more 'soviet' feel in terms of... everything :D
11-05-2010
Sehven

Given the context: this is meant as a propaganda poster from an evil government portraying itself as the good guys; and the general resemblance, I would say that it was indeed intentional. Obviously Mm isn't about to put a swastika in their game, but they wanted a symbol that would represent the general idea (like what one guy say about Norsefire's symbol in "V for Vendetta.") I saw a similar approach in the comic book "Danger Girl" where the evil empire's symbol was a bent hammer against a red background.

As for the actual swastika, I'm of two minds on the issue. On one hand, it's just a symbol that's been around basically forever and has been used by various religions or other organizations and doesn't categorically represent evil (at least I don't think it does--for all I know it could have originally been an evil symbol that others picked up later, but whatever). On the other hand, the most prominent use of the swastika was by the Nazi party which is widely considered to be one of the most evil groups in recorded history, and it's the first thing most people think of when they see a swastika. I also believe the skinheads use the symbol to this day. In that way, it has become a symbol of hatred and atrocities in many people's minds and displaying it can be seen as extremely offensive. So whether you agree that a symbol can be defined as evil, is it more important for one group to be able to freely display it than it is for them to be considerate of the group who are hurt or offended by it? I don't think it is.

Having said that, I don't believe there's a problem with using symbols that vaguely resemble the Nazi swastika (such as the one in the lbp2 artwork) to convey the idea that this bright sunshiney government is not what they claim to be. I think this thread is a case of making a mountain of a molehill.
11-05-2010
Rabid-Coot

Fiction is full of things like this, they're designed to set the tone of the piece as something like that of the real life event but without using the actual symbol and all the bad press it attracts.
11-06-2010
Ayneh

There's no swastika in the image.

The first game got delayed because of a quote from the Quran present in one of the songs. Everyone is looking to be offended. It's childish.
11-06-2010
Rustbukkit

Hitler... ruining religious symbols and moustaches one war at a time.

It's a pinwheel.... next topic please?
11-06-2010
dragonember

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sehven

Given the context: this is meant as a propaganda poster from an evil government portraying itself as the good guys; and the general resemblance, I would say that it was indeed intentional. Obviously Mm isn't about to put a swastika in their game, but they wanted a symbol that would represent the general idea (like what one guy say about Norsefire's symbol in "V for Vendetta.") I saw a similar approach in the comic book "Danger Girl" where the evil empire's symbol was a bent hammer against a red background.

As for the actual swastika, I'm of two minds on the issue. On one hand, it's just a symbol that's been around basically forever and has been used by various religions or other organizations and doesn't categorically represent evil (at least I don't think it does--for all I know it could have originally been an evil symbol that others picked up later, but whatever). On the other hand, the most prominent use of the swastika was by the Nazi party which is widely considered to be one of the most evil groups in recorded history, and it's the first thing most people think of when they see a swastika. I also believe the skinheads use the symbol to this day. In that way, it has become a symbol of hatred and atrocities in many people's minds and displaying it can be seen as extremely offensive. So whether you agree that a symbol can be defined as evil, is it more important for one group to be able to freely display it than it is for them to be considerate of the group who are hurt or offended by it? I don't think it is.

Having said that, I don't believe there's a problem with using symbols that vaguely resemble the Nazi swastika (such as the one in the lbp2 artwork) to convey the idea that this bright sunshiney government is not what they claim to be. I think this thread is a case of making a mountain of a molehill.

I could not have said it better. The Nazi party used it to make it look like they were the "good guys". Very well put, Sehven!
11-06-2010
Tap Dat App

I also thought I should post this image from a promotional poster of the Sonic Costume DLC in LittleBigPlanet. Note Media Molecule said "Charlie Chaplin (in The Great Dictator)"...which is a bit politically correct. They very blatantly therefore meant Hitler, but figured just the name could cause controversy. This is the closest bit of stuff I could find related to this situation in the world of LittleBigPlanet.

http://www.littlebigplanet.com/image...ches_lbp_3.jpg
11-07-2010
Rustbukkit

Yep... that movie is a direct satire on Hitler, so they are definitely acknowledging him. Weird! Even weirder in that poster is the mention of Ron Jeremy... considering the games intended audience and all.
11-07-2010
tomodon246

The 'swastika' quite similar to the japanese kanji symbol meaning temple, or o-te-ra.

More of a reverse swastika, and that one's turned on its side.

Everyone was surprised in Japanese class too.

For the 'charlie chaplin' picture above.... I don't think it's a direct reference to Hitler. More of an accidental one.
Charlie Chaplin's moustache would have been that length in the film.
11-08-2010
Tap Dat App

BREAKING DISCOVERY/NEWS: The Official Image in the Game Has Been Changed! Note that the one I posted was from the Fan Kit, which may need an update. I am in the Beta and was going through some level someone made full of story items they grabbed using a glitch, and one of them had this sticker on it. I wanted to examine it so I took it off the object and blew the sticker up really big to see that the Windmill Gear Piece now looks a lot more square/circle-ish. Since this has probably been this way since at least the v1.01 patch, the sticker probably wasn't changed as a result of this thread, but it's possible they realized this problem early on and changed it, as it is the only noticeable change from the Fan Kit Image.

Like I had said before, it wasn't too big of a deal. But I'm glad it got changed. And it reduces the risk of any controversy or last-minute recalls. :)

Also, I will try to post pictures from the Beta of its new look later.
11-12-2010
Nakatsu Hime

Everyone instantly moans about Hitler, but I bet if there was a Mao Tse-Tung image, you'd get no reactions.
11-28-2010
littlebigmeteor

No offense, but this is kind of rediculous.

I took me a good five minutes of staring at the picture, and when I gave up, scrolled down, and saw where you pointed it out, I was like "Oh... that..?"

It looks nothing like that.
11-28-2010
Astrosimi

Cut the guy some slack. He admitted he might be over-thinking things. Everyone's a little paranoid every once in a while.
11-28-2010
iBubek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tap Dat App

square/circle-ish

Isn't that a contradiction?
11-28-2010
KILLA_TODDZILLA

I don't see a swastika ,it looks more like mac and cheese to me.http://www.sleevetown.com/images/45insert.jpg http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...ocpyUY1cpZ4M8g

On a more serious note, Just because something doesn't disturb you does not mean it's not disturbing. Besides speech, symbols are the way we communicate with each other so when a symbol is created out of hate it means more than just some squiggly lines.

Edit: I completley missed the first page of posts, I thought this "pinwheel" was the offending symbol.
11-28-2010
FreeAim

Well this is just rediculous. No offense, but I think it's just stupid that all the, and I mean ALL the people think that swastika signs point at germans. Sure they used it but so did many other people before and after them. It's not only a GD nazi symbol.
11-28-2010
KILLA_TODDZILLA

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeAim

Well this is just rediculous. No offense, but I think it's just stupid that all the, and I mean ALL the people think that swastika signs point at germans. Sure they used it but so did many other people before and after them. It's not only a GD nazi symbol.

In sehven's defense, he did mention that it was used before the Nazi's took it over. Whatever it was used for before the Nazi's took it over has almost no bearing anymore. It's polluted with Negative thoughts and feelings now and forever.

Edit: Again, I missed the first page somehow.
11-28-2010
Richasackboy

The swastika has had some prior history - however, it has been polluted as far as what it means goes. I thought it was nice that TapDatApp pointed this out: if it were released in the full game, it might cause a delay (like the last time, when the lyrics were removed from Tapha Niang), even though it isn't obviously a swastika, but can be seen as one.

Anyway, I thank you for bringing this to our attention. It appears Mm has already determined that it could cause controversy, and have taken appropriate action. Hurrah!
11-28-2010
Ungreth

Speaking as someone with jewish blood who had many relatives put to death in Nazi death camps, my view is this. The swastika should be frowned upon only where it is used as a contemporary propaganda tool to promote neo-nazism, but is quite acceptable when used in in films, tv, games, etc. to objectively portray that period of history.

I seriously doubt that Mm are trying to start a nazi revival here.
11-28-2010
rtm223

Interesting tangent to this topic (though still almost on topic)...

Swastika banned in user generated content in Black ops.
11-28-2010
KILLA_TODDZILLA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungreth

Speaking as someone with jewish blood who had many relatives put to death in Nazi death camps, my view is this. The swastika should be frowned upon only where it is used as a contemporary propaganda tool to promote neo-nazism, but is quite acceptable when used in in films, tv, games, etc. to objectively portray that period of history.

I seriously doubt that Mm are trying to start a nazi revival here.

I think to prove themselves, Mm should come out with Hanukkah DLC complete with yamika, Menorah, and a hair piece with peyots. :p
11-28-2010
Ungreth

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLA_TODDZILLA

I think to prove themselves, Mm should come out with Hanukkah DLC complete with yamika, Menorah, and a hair piece with peyots. :p

...and hold a community briss where players can have their sackboys ceremonially circumcised?
11-28-2010
Richasackboy

Ummm... Sure. I'm going to go play "Stiff Pistons" now.
11-29-2010
littlebigmeteor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungreth

...and hold a community briss where players can have their sackboys ceremonially circumcised?

I'm not exactly sure how to reply to this..

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