MMMMMM A level inspired by VVVVVV

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Originally Posted by Alphagaia

Glad to help!

Are the checkpoints that intense on your level?

How about using a emitter for your checkpoints? Give it a follower status on a invisible hologram and make it follow a tag which will turn on the second a player hits a checkpoint. Set the range and speed of the follower really high so it will move to your new checkpoint in an instant. This way u can emit your gravity device thingy using only one emitter, which probably is your problem?
Add a checkpoint every two screens or so.

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yeah i have an emitter on every checkpoint, (though the level is kindof intense it its size in general) but I think you're onto something that may allow me to squeeze more in. I'm familiar with your technique as I had to do that with the hud. Though If you remember my level what do you think of adding these checkpoint spots?
1 - Green Zone: right after you drop past the first Big (thats 3 obstacles from the previous checkpoint and 3 before the next)
2 - Purple Zone: right before the bucket: mostly because the bucket is long and potentially difficult, but there are three obstacles before and one hard one after
3 - Sewer: right after the pushing bit

I dont think I need any in red, if people can't pass the red zone they wont finish the level xD
I've got them every 2nd room in the final area already
Should I add one in yellow by the tesla towers? people can always go up without danger and trigger the earlier yellow one.
Adding one mid orange might be a trick, but I could try if people think there should be one...

Add checkpoints consistent: like I said place one every two screens, even on the easy bits. A mistake should not force a player to redo long bits of level even if its easy.

Do you want to try out my level too? It's in my signature.

Ok thanks to Alphagaia I found a way to squeeze 10 more checkpoints in the level, I placed them at potential points of frustration, sorry none in orange though, as their may be a trick to making the scroll work right...

I also fixed the jump so that it only works on depression, so now you wont accidentally flip if you're holding down X

and I fixed the suicide issue, now when you suicide, the machine goes with you.

Very nice, I played it and liked it much more!

-the X press work perfectly now. Very good! The added checkpoints work like a charm too! Still think you might need one at the start to help noob players though...

-One more thing though, maybe you could add a movie camera which shows where you need to go after you unlocked a new pathway? I was stuck after opening the first big diamond blokade and wondered if some other blokade opened up as well, just like the first.

-is it possible to hold the R2 button so I dont have to push 25 times to unlock a big blokade? Or better yet, make it vanish with one pres of the button? It would speed up gameplay a lot.

-sometimes, the map is in the way a little bit. Could you move it down a little or make it a little bit more transparent when the player is close. I also recomment upping the speed of its follower, to make the transision during screens better.

-also, the bucket is very slow, maybe speed it up a bit of let it go left or right with R2? Ofcourse it will also need a trigger so its always on the side the player is should the player die.

-just above the bucket, the speed text sometimes give a unfair death since I have to jump up blind not knowing where the text is because its not on screen. Maybe move it to the right some more so its never in the way of the blind jump?

Upgraded my like to a heart. Did not have time today to finish the level, but I will try it some more!

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Originally Posted by Alphagaia

Very nice, I played it and liked it much more!

-the X press work perfectly now. Very good! The added checkpoints work like a charm too! Still think you might need one at the start to help noob players though...

-One more thing though, maybe you could add a movie camera which shows where you need to go after you unlocked a new pathway? I was stuck after opening the first big diamond blokade and wondered if some other blokade opened up as well, just like the first.

-is it possible to hold the R2 button so I dont have to push 25 times to unlock a big blokade? Or better yet, make it vanish with one pres of the button? It would speed up gameplay a lot.

-sometimes, the map is in the way a little bit. Could you move it down a little or make it a little bit more transparent when the player is close. I also recomment upping the speed of its follower, to make the transision during screens better.

-also, the bucket is very slow, maybe speed it up a bit of let it go left or right with R2? Ofcourse it will also need a trigger so its always on the side the player is should the player die.

-just above the bucket, the speed text sometimes give a unfair death since I have to jump up blind not knowing where the text is because its not on screen. Maybe move it to the right some more so its never in the way of the blind jump?

Upgraded my like to a heart. Did not have time today to finish the level, but I will try it some more!

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Unfortunately I can't make the minimap any smaller, that's something I've tried before. Though convenient for when I've had to make modifications to it, since i know where to stop reshrinking it at. I tried moving it down some, but it doesn't really change anything without making it uncomfortable. and besides a few spots where it crosses the exit hole a bit, I think there's only really one spot where it gets in the way, and I've tried to make it a little nicer by moving the hole over a bit.

The R2 Gate thing doesn't work for a couple of reasons, both technical and gameplay wise, so I think I'm gonna leave it for now as it's not really deterring play but just pauses a bit.

As for the bucket, I've fiddled with it and found that speeding it up doesn't work for me, it either makes it too easy (like requiring one flip, or too hard, by making the one flip you have to do too hard.) Plus I'd like to make the player flip 3 times. My problem with the bucket is that it wont always cross that second crystal, I wish the rotator had a timer function rather than a speed so that I could synch it up with the piston.

As for the fasts above the bucket, i've moved them in a bit but now the flip between them is harder. Any other change there now would have me removing them. And given that there is now a checkpoint in the room before and right after, I'm ok with it, players should be able to roll into the room slowly and be fine. In exchange though,I've removed the similar and more unfair rolling death in the top center blue room, you can now safely roll in.

And there are 2 spots I was thinking of adding checkpoints, but I will sit on them until I get more feedback, because I can't add anything without removing something at this point.

thanks again for your feedback.

Hiya finished your level!

Found a big bug right on the first screen of the hidden level, the groundpanel before the checkpoint doesn't trigger when I push X. It wont change gravity.I only managed to get by this by going to the cealing, press x, fall down and hopefully hit the cealing so i could press x again. You might want to fix it.

-little nibble: the 2 enemies can be killed if you shoot back their slime, but it's never mentioned you have to do that. At first I thought I should be able to fit between the enemie and slime to get through.

-also the last boss also shoots slime, at first I though I had to shoot those back instead of hitting the tongue! Maybe make it a different color slime or something?

-last little thing: in the first area its possible to hit the spikes from the side. In almost all the levels you have put blocks there to stop this from happening. Maybe its easier on starting players if you place blocks there too? A friend of mine got killed 4/5 times because of this and its such a easy fix to stop annoying fresh players.

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Originally Posted by Alphagaia

Hiya finished your level!

Found a big bug right on the first screen of the hidden level, the groundpanel before the checkpoint doesn't trigger when I push X. It wont change gravity.I only managed to get by this by going to the cealing, press x, fall down and hopefully hit the cealing so i could press x again. You might want to fix it.

-little nibble: the 2 enemies can be killed if you shoot back their slime, but it's never mentioned you have to do that. At first I thought I should be able to fit between the enemie and slime to get through.

-also the last boss also shoots slime, at first I though I had to shoot those back instead of hitting the tongue! Maybe make it a different color slime or something?

-last little thing: in the first area its possible to hit the spikes from the side. In almost all the levels you have put blocks there to stop this from happening. Maybe its easier on starting players if you place blocks there too? A friend of mine got killed 4/5 times because of this and its such a easy fix to stop annoying fresh players.

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Edit: ok now i see where i didn't tag the flip. thanks after adding the checkpoint, i segmented up the ground there and lost the trigger to flip. thanks

The first survivor you find does hint at how to kill both, but maybe people forget by the time they get there... maybe i'll move it to the later guy. I can't add another sackbot, no space =( ... though I could get rid of one of the two that don't say anything.

I fixed some of the spikes in the first area, i suppose i could give those the same treatment. Don't particularly want to be too generous though, cause if they can't overcome that they probably wont finish... but then again, i don't have the extra checkpoint up there...

Yeah, somebody else mentioned the thinking you could reflect too, maybe i'll change the color of the ones you can reflect

thanks for sticking with it to the end and giving me so much feedback =D

sorry to anybody who got caught in that bug in the sewers in the last 15 or so plays =(

The level sounds very interesting. I've added it to my queue so that I can check it out. However, can you also check out a level me and my crew have put a lot of time into constructing? http://lbp.me/v/y4n7x0

The F4F thread: http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/sho...g-Piece-Part-1

I just played your level. According to one of the reviews left for it, this is based on an already published game, correct? Regardless, I have not played it, and I was amazed by this. I was not able to find the way into the sewers, but what I did play I absolutely loved. I actually felt compelled to find my way through. The gameplay was simple yet amazingly well-executed. At times, it reminded me of a level from the story mode where you controlled a vehicle that operated similarly. Still great job!

Pros:
-Good visuals
-Easy to understand instructions
-Tight controls
-Thought-out gameplay

Cons
-Too difficult for most to find sewers? LOL.

This is a really great concept, and a really great execution but it seems to be hindered by keeping secrets from the player. I quit before the orange section, and found myself generally frustrated trying to escape the yellow section. I started in the green section, bought the tunnel through blue to yellow, but only had the patience to play the first yellow room and the one above it. Trying to get back out the way I came, passed through the yellow room probably six or more times only to die in the blue tunnel area.

Extreme peril and the need to explore seem to make strange bedfellows here. More liberal checkpoints would definitely have made this less frustrating, like if they were built into both ends of the tunnel, for example. In balancing your difficulty vs. accessibility, I think if you want more people to finish the level then you know some compromise is in order. I think more frequent checkpoints are probably the best way to accomplish that. This allows you to keep from having to make huge design changes, and the level becomes less punishing while maintaining its form.

It took me some time to figure out that the HUD was a map. I'd recommend not necessarily labeling it "map" but having an text bubble point it out in the instructions.

Where you exit the spaceship, I smacked the set of spikes on the left and they shifted to the side, like they accidently weren't glued down.

All in all, I think this level plays and feels great. The ball handles well and the hazards are challenging without being insane. It could use some more decoration, but a lot of the time a level like this doesn't have the thermo, and really decorating isn't a core piece of the experience anyway. I think this level is really awesome, but as is it requires a tremendous amount of patience, a requirement that significantly reduces the size of your target audience.

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Originally Posted by Scholarship

I just played your level. According to one of the reviews left for it, this is based on an already published game, correct? Regardless, I have not played it, and I was amazed by this. I was not able to find the way into the sewers, but what I did play I absolutely loved. I actually felt compelled to find my way through. The gameplay was simple yet amazingly well-executed. At times, it reminded me of a level from the story mode where you controlled a vehicle that operated similarly. Still great job!

Pros:
-Good visuals
-Easy to understand instructions
-Tight controls
-Thought-out gameplay

Cons
-Too difficult for most to find sewers? LOL.

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hey, thanks for your feedback, can you tell me what you did do to try and find the sewers? I say secret under the west tower right? so did you go to the bottom of the yellow zone and try hitting R2?

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Originally Posted by discokrakken

This is a really great concept, and a really great execution but it seems to be hindered by keeping secrets from the player. I quit before the orange section, and found myself generally frustrated trying to escape the yellow section. I started in the green section, bought the tunnel through blue to yellow, but only had the patience to play the first yellow room and the one above it. Trying to get back out the way I came, passed through the yellow room probably six or more times only to die in the blue tunnel area.

Extreme peril and the need to explore seem to make strange bedfellows here. More liberal checkpoints would definitely have made this less frustrating, like if they were built into both ends of the tunnel, for example. In balancing your difficulty vs. accessibility, I think if you want more people to finish the level then you know some compromise is in order. I think more frequent checkpoints are probably the best way to accomplish that. This allows you to keep from having to make huge design changes, and the level becomes less punishing while maintaining its form.

It took me some time to figure out that the HUD was a map. I'd recommend not necessarily labeling it "map" but having an text bubble point it out in the instructions.

Where you exit the spaceship, I smacked the set of spikes on the left and they shifted to the side, like they accidently weren't glued down.

All in all, I think this level plays and feels great. The ball handles well and the hazards are challenging without being insane. It could use some more decoration, but a lot of the time a level like this doesn't have the thermo, and really decorating isn't a core piece of the experience anyway. I think this level is really awesome, but as is it requires a tremendous amount of patience, a requirement that significantly reduces the size of your target audience.

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thanks I'll have the captain call out the map. and glue those spikes down.

Unfortunately it took me almost everything I had to get the current checkpoints in, I'll have to start removing things to fit anymore in. I'm not exactly sure if I knew where you got stuck. I presume you passed the dark maze, and then could not pass the zig=zag jumps in the room above or got stuck in the in the top left, where the electric / lightswitch thingy is. I'm assuming you did not realize to press R2 next to the 'lightswitch' and so decided to turn around.

thanks for your feedback.

The problem with your checkpoints is that you use them to spawn your sackboy out of them as well.

This can be avoided and give you the oppurtunity to remove all the usual sackboy checkpoints.

Simply set a controllinator on a invisible hologram as a transmitter. Make it follow your gravi-ball. Set the controllinator on your graviball as a receiver.

When the graviball dies, the hologram with the player should go to a checkpoint.
Make your own checpoint system which turns on when the graviball touches it and turns all others off.

This code is very easy to make and lets you remove all checkpoints thus giving you more thermometer and easily make more checkpoints.

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Also, place a R2 sticker on your blue switches to remind players they can interact with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alphagaia

The problem with your checkpoints is that you use them to spawn your sackboy out of them as well.

This can be avoided and give you the oppurtunity to remove all the usual sackboy checkpoints.

Simply set a controllinator on a invisible hologram as a transmitter. Make it follow your gravi-ball. Set the controllinator on your graviball as a receiver.

When the graviball dies, the hologram with the player should go to a checkpoint.
Make your own checpoint system which turns on when the graviball touches it and turns all others off.

This code is very easy to make and lets you remove all checkpoints thus giving you more thermometer and easily make more checkpoints.

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Also, place a R2 sticker on your blue switches to remind players they can interact with them.

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ohh another good checkpoint advancement. I'll fiddle with that when i get a bit more time.

Good luck, let me know if you need some help: my own level uses this system!

Hi Fei0x..
K, first off, OMG I owe you such a MASSIVE apology, you F4F'd my level a week a go, and I DIDN'T return the favor, I know what it's like when you F4F some body's level, and they don't bother with the courtesy of doing the same ( I've f4f'd about 12, and only had about three return the favor!) So I cant apologies enough!

K, I DID play your level i guess the day after you f4f'd me, but I was tired, and found your level so hard and frustrating, that I gave up.....K, today, went at it with a fresh, open mind...erm, but it didn't make any difference (gee, I'm sorry, out of guilt i persevered for 30 minutes, and took three breaks (because I wanted to throw the controller at my nice shiny new TV) I tried some Zen breathing Techniques, I had a cup of tea, went out and had a ciggerrette...each time coming back to the paused game feeling a bit calmer and happier to continue, to get to another section to find my blood pressure rising, and swearing through gritted teeth. Heheh, I cant tell you how many times I swore, but wonders if there is a Guinness world record for the most amount of profanity's said in one LBP level ......Think I may be a contender for it.

I'm not going to list ALL the issues I had, I feel bad enough giving you negative feed back already with out rubbing yet more salt in.....so let me try and repeat what a lot of others are saying...it's TOO HARD! LOL..K One of the main issues is having to constantly back track to the last save point, and when you die 122 times (YEAH I COUNTED>>>SUE ME!) thats A LOT of frustrating back tracking! Why not have an unlimited lives gate on a FOLLOWER, with the emitter for the vehicle on there, so if you die you respawn at the same place?...Or if not, at LEAST a spawn at EVERY NEW OBSTACLE!!

Sorry that i couldn't put a positive spin on this revirew...considered lieing and saying I loved it, would have been A LOT easier, but I'm afraid I'm not good at that kind of thing.

Sorry mate!

I found the new locations of the checkpoints quite adequate know. there a few bits that could benefit from a extra checkpoint, but the amount of checkpoints doubled during my first and second try of this level which make it much more bearable, but thats me. Yeah, its hard, supposed to be that way judging from the the game this is based on. Maybe next time add a system where you can easily insert a checkpoint each two screens, but as this is now, it should not be to annoying for most people with a bit of skill to complete.

thanks everybody for your input.

At this point I think I'm going to put this level to rest. I think it's seen it's hayday, and even though only a few actually finished it I still have about 50% likes and 25% hearts.
I definitely learned a lot making this level (except how to make an easy level, I still can't do that. haha) I think I will republish one last time with a warning on the difficulty and length in the description.

So I'm unF4Fing for now, but I will be back when the creative itch returns. I'm gonna go work on my pile of shame (other games I want to play)

If you still want to leave feedback here though, it's cool, I'll still read them and keep that in mind for future levels.

Keep being awesome LBPCentral!
laters.
fei0x

Ok, so I have had this level queued and bookmarked since you posted this thread.
Apologies for not playing it sooner.
Here are some things to consider:

Map. I had no idea it was a map on the first playthrough, I assumed it counted your diamonds or something.
Backtracking. The most annoying part of the level, was going through a whole section, only to find it blocked off by those darn candy cane walls. Backtracking was more troublesome than fun.
Dark section. Perhaps add some lights on the R2 waves? (see MM's Marvel level with Daredevil) Fumbling around in the dark is no fun (at least in LBP, har har).
Boss projectiles. They look exactly the same as the other enemies ones, so the player will assume they act the same, and be able to fire them back. Remember to keep all elements consistent as possible.
Visual goals The usual LBP crowd is used to have opening locations revealed to them (visually) as soon as they hit the switch. While I managed to find my way eventually, others may not have the patience required to do so. For this level I would suggest adding a flashing holo border around the target location on the mini map.
Length. This is different for everyone, but imo this level could be split into two easily and no one would complain.

As for the lack of completion, I would wager it's a combination of length, backtracking/getting lost, and not having the goal's location revealed on a silver platter.
It's a above average level, try not to feel discouraged.
Usually levels that require patience don't fare so well with the general LBP population.

The survival version was pretty good too. :)
Well worth playing!