Purpose

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Originally Posted by comishguy67

Ya know....i think someone actually built Rapture in LBP. :P

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I am SnipySev, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the hearts of his level? 'No!' says the level spammer, 'It belongs to whoever publishes the same level most times.' 'No!' says the copier, 'It belongs to the people who copy your level.' 'No!' says the one that engages in H4H, 'It belongs to those who also give you hearts in return.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... LBP, a planet where the MM picked would not fear the advertisement spammer, where the top creator would not be bound by petty thermo space, where the crowned would not be constrained by the H4H'er! And with the hearts on your level, LBP can be your game too...


NOT.

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Originally Posted by comishguy67

Good ol' Macnme, I had a feeling you would be the first to respond! LOL :love:

But I have to respectfully disagree with some of your points. :frightened:

First off, I don't believe purpose is the result of the "human condition". nor because of our egos.

Does a rock have a "purpose" or it it simply the result of geology?
The rock and us are made of the same material - have the same origin. We are simply the result of the natural processes of the universe - just because we can perceive the universe, doesn't mean we have any greater purpose in it that the rock. We "think" we have a greater purpose in this universe than a rock - but actually we have the same (ie; none, both us & the rock are here by random chance)

In fact, I believe the concept of purpose comes from our ability to perceive cause and effect.

For example, life on earth is possible because of a series of virtually perfect cosmic events.

Therefore, I can say that the purpose of the Sun is to sustain life on earth...or be really hot and shiny. :p

On a universal time-scale - which is the time scales that suns are measured in - the sun is like a spark that shines for a moment and is then extinguished. the "purpose" of the sun - if you can say that an inanimate object has a purpose - is to burn briefly and then go out.

Since we are called "life"forms, the purpose of life's existence is to simply...live, in anyway possible.

But it is not guaranteed that life-forms will go on living - if anything, the purpose of a life-form is to die, decay and return to the dust that it was created from. The one certain thing about life, is that it will end.

Eh...I wish I knew how to explain this better...

Also, this "meaning" we attach to things, is the brains way of interpreting the variety of things we perceive around us.

And that perception is frequently dead wrong. Someone doing a rain dance - after many many days of doing a rain dance, might perceive that it was the rain dance that caused the rain, rather than it being natural meteorological event. Humans perception of events is often completely wrong - as our ego's re-interpret things to make them relevant to ourselves.

And I'm not sure what you meant by "fairness", could you elaborate? :)
"Fairness" - like "meaning" and "purpose", is a human concepts that are not applicable to the universe at large. For instance - a meteorite isn't going to stop itself from hitting earth and wiping out all life just because it's "unfair";

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Life - Don't Talk to me about Life! :p
http://www.hairthief.com/marvin.jpg

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Originally Posted by DizzyZebra

Seriously, where have you been living the last decade? >_> I am not the greenest person alive, but the effects of global warming have been a fairly constant subject in the media that is hard to miss.

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Global warming's a load of crap made up by people to make money. We may have sped up the process, but over 4 billion years the planet's gone into deep freeze to cooker a huge amount of times. In fact, once there was too little Co2, and the planet froze pole to pole. before the dinosaurs became extinct, the world began to heat rapidly. Global warming is a natural thing, not a bad thing.

In short, in my eyes it's a big smoke screen made by the media to block out the **** they're supporting like facebook and Politicians, and also used to bolster sales of ****, useless wastes of Space like the Toyota Prius, when it does just as much damge. Hydrogen fuel is the way to go, my friend.

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Originally Posted by Macnme

Life - Don't Talk to me about Life! :p
http://www.hairthief.com/marvin.jpg

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How did you get that picture of me?

Hakuna matata.

Actually - there's a new revisionist theory on the "Snowball Earth" theory;

That in fact, the world was never "frozen pole to pole" - but in fact the earth axis tipped to such a degree (probably due to a meteorite impact) that the current poles were shifted to the equator, and the equator became the new north/south pole. This would explain the presence of glaciers on the equatorial line.

It illustrates even more how we are just a giant billiard ball spinning around randomly in space.

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Originally Posted by Macnme

Actually - there's a new revisionist theory on the "Snowball Earth" theory;

That in fact, the world was never "frozen pole to pole" - but in fact the earth axis tipped to such a degree (probably due to a meteorite impact) that the current poles were shifted to the equator, and the equator became the new north/south pole. This would explain the presence of glaciers on the equatorial line.

It illustrates even more how we are just a giant billiard ball spinning around randomly in space.

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Still, there is proof that the Earth was warming before the Dinosaurs became extinct, so it's definitely true that the earth is in a cycle.

But that is very interesting!

Exactly. The environment is constantly changing... we have just evolved during a "stable period".
The earth will do far more environmental damage to itself with things like volcanoes and earthquakes, and the solar system will do even more damage to earth than it can to itself... than mankind could hope to do in his entire evolutionary time-period on the planet - even if we tried really hard to do as much damage as possible. It's a case of mankinds ego re-interpreting events so that He is the central figure in the story. :rolleyes:


"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."
Douglas Adams

Does a rock have a "purpose" or it it simply the result of geology?
The rock and us are made of the same material - have the same origin. We are simply the result of the natural processes of the universe - just because we can perceive the universe, doesn't mean we have any greater purpose in it that the rock. We "think" we have a greater purpose in this universe than a rock - but actually we have the same (ie; none, both us & the rock are here by random chance)

Ok, I think you misinterpret what I mean by "purpose".

My view of purpose is "what you exist for". I have a saying (that I actually just right now made up XD): If you came into existence for a reason, then there is a reason for your existence.

If a singularity that got too hot and exploded caused my existence, then "one" of my purposes is to exist as the singularity does.

The purpose of the rock is to simply exist as a rock. It can't do anything more than drift along in space aimlessly.

But a human being can obviously do more. It can build space ships, create atomic bombs, etc. We definitely can effect the universe more than a rock could. So therefore, we DO have more 'purpose' WITHIN THE UNIVERSE than a rock. :p

On a universal time-scale - which is the time scales that suns are measured in - the sun is like a spark that shines for a moment and is then extinguished. the "purpose" of the sun - if you can say that an inanimate object has a purpose - is to burn briefly and then go out.

Correct :p.

But it is not guaranteed that life-forms will go on living - if anything, the purpose of a life-form is to die, decay and return to the dust that it was created from. The one certain thing about life, is that it will end.

True, but a human has a purpose in life as he/she does in death. If something is dead, then as the rock it will have less purpose within the universe than a live being because it can't do as much as the living within the Universe.

And that perception is frequently dead wrong. Someone doing a rain dance - after many many days of doing a rain dance, might perceive that it was the rain dance that caused the rain, rather than it being natural meteorological event. Humans perception of events is often completely wrong - as our ego's re-interpret things to make them relevant to ourselves.

And maybe depression and lack of self-confidence causes you to believe that you are nothing more than a purposeless piece of exist that was created by a random series of cosmological events? :p

That person doing the rain dance does the same things that you do. Perceives something and interprets it based on the things he has experienced and knowledge he has gained from living in what ever reality he lives in. I doubt it has anything to do with the "ego". Well...yeah for some...yeah it does. XD

"Fairness" - like "meaning" and "purpose", is a human concepts that are not applicable to the universe at large. For instance - a meteorite isn't going to stop itself from hitting earth and wiping out all life just because it's "unfair";

Ah I see, I agree. :p

I did see an interesting thing on an old Through the Wormhole yesterday, countering your "random events" idea. The theory, however implausible as it sounds, states that we are a computer simulation. That's all we are. We aren't real, tangible things, we aren't random in any way, we are just products of a complex simulation. All the natural disasters - or any other events for that matter - could, in theory, be scripted events put into the simulation by the "programmer" who runs the whole operation we live within. It's all just a complex Sims/SimCity simulation. Strange isn't it?

Honestly, I don't believe this theory, but it gives us something to ponder.

As for the question on purpose; here is my view. We are all humans, and we all are here to live. You make your own purpose. It may not be some big "ultimate purpose" that some may desire, but in the end, we make our own purposes to live. If you want to cure a disease in your lifetime, make that your purpose to live. If you want to live in a box, go for it. That can be your purpose.

You may never reach the goal that has given your life purpose, but if you try to reach your goal within your lifetime, you can't say you never tried.

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Originally Posted by Macnme

Exactly. The environment is constantly changing... we have just evolved during a "stable period".
The earth will do far more environmental damage to itself with things like volcanoes and earthquakes, and the solar system will do even more damage to earth than it can to itself... than mankind could hope to do in his entire evolutionary time-period on the planet - even if we tried really hard to do as much damage as possible. It's a case of mankinds ego re-interpreting events so that He is the central figure in the story. :rolleyes:

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Firstly that quote is awesome.

As for what I bolded, that is exactly my point. people say we are so advanced, when we're not, we still want to be better than each other. I want Ireland to be the dominator of the world, but we can't have it every way unfortunately.

One thing I do think we've wrecked is the unique-ness of people. The UN, as good as it may be, is actively wrecking cultures all over the world in an effort to merge them, I firmly believe in a hundred year's time, people will look back and say 'we are so boring, we have nothing amazing like that'. So, in a way, this human purpose business is actively wrecking people's identities.

Well, I looked at the evidence and I thought Global Warming is most likely happening. And probably sped up by humans. =/ Yes, there are people making money out of it, there always are. Looking at this point we probably are not causing as much increase in temperature as the hype suggests, but there will be consequences, big or not. Meh, the rest I can't be sure of. >_>

To be honest, being friendly to the environment confuses me. On one hand, over time it is constantly changing, species come and species go. Species take over and become dominant, tipping the balance and wiping out the others. For sentimental reasons many people want to save the species we are killing off right now due to our population explosion. But I think what we would actually need to sacrifice to 'save' all the other animals just isn't going to happen. There is no way humans could give up enough to make their survival possible. We just wouldn't want to. Instead of having animals at zoos or in national parks, people would have to be the ones with the allocated amount of space. Its the only relative solution and its hardly likely.

On the other hand, we depend on the environment. We need the balance, we need the recourses and we need the food. So if we let the other forms of life go, so do we. Bleak.

Okay I think I got of the topic of purpose. However it could be simply survival...?

As certain species disappear, other species evolve to fill the evolutionary niche that is now vacant.

Human beings evolution has been one of constantly adapting to environmental changes - and it is these adaptions that have shaped us into the animal we are today.

The panda has gone down an evolutionary dead end - They were originally a carnivorous bear that evolved to take advantage of the plentyful supply of bamboo... and require HUGE areas of virgin Bamboo forest, just to sustain themselves.
Unfortunately for them, there is no longer the amount of bamboo forest left to sustain them as a species - but we are willing to pour billions down the drain in order to try - just because we think they're cute.

I mean, the Human Louse is also in danger of extinction - but do we care? - No, we think that having the occasional itch is reason enough to kill off an entire species. (because they aren't "cute" and they annoy us).

My point is (I have a point now?!); If someone was to say "Let's obliterate 97% of all life on earth!" - they'd be either shouted down or committed to a mental asylum.
But it was just such a mass extinction event, roughly 65 million years ago, that gave our shrew-like ancestor space to evolve into Homo Sapien.

Humans are right now involved in their own mass extinction event - in a few years (relatively speaking) we'll have reduced biodiversity by around 90%.
Who knows what will evolve to fill these evolutionary niches?

KILL THE PANDAS I SAY! :p (we could spend the conservation money on animals that are actually worth saving instead)

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Originally Posted by Macnme

As certain species disappear, other species evolve to fill the evolutionary niche that is now vacant.

Human beings evolution has been one of constantly adapting to environmental changes - and it is these adaptions that have shaped us into the animal we are today.

The panda has gone down an evolutionary dead end - They were originally a carnivorous bear that evolved to take advantage of the plentyful supply of bamboo... and require HUGE areas of virgin Bamboo forest, just to sustain themselves.
Unfortunately for them, there is no longer the amount of bamboo forest left to sustain them as a species - but we are willing to pour billions down the drain in order to try - just because we think they're cute.

I mean, the Human Louse is also in danger of extinction - but do we care? - No, we think that having the occasional itch is reason enough to kill off an entire species. (because they aren't "cute" and they annoy us).

My point is (I have a point now?!); If someone was to say "Let's obliterate 97% of all life on earth!" - they'd be either shouted down or committed to a mental asylum.
But it was just such a mass extinction event, roughly 65 million years ago, that gave our shrew-like ancestor space to evolve into Homo Sapien.

Humans are right now involved in their own mass extinction event - in a few years (relatively speaking) we'll have reduced biodiversity by around 90%.
Who knows what will evolve to fill these evolutionary niches?

KILL THE PANDAS I SAY! :p (we could spend the conservation money on animals that are actually worth saving instead)

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Don't forget 'the big one'. the city in MotorStorm Apocalypse is not that far fetched, That fault along the pacific ring is very close to San Francisco and other important US cities, now THAT would be trouble.

On a related/unrelated note!

The Return of Captain Planet?!

[spoiler]

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Originally Posted by Macnme

The earth will do far more environmental damage to itself with things like volcanoes and earthquakes, and the solar system will do even more damage to earth than it can to itself... than mankind could hope to do in his entire evolutionary time-period on the planet - even if we tried really hard to do as much damage as possible. It's a case of mankinds ego re-interpreting events so that He is the central figure in the story. :rolleyes:

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Son I am dissapoint.[/spoiler]

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Originally Posted by Macnme

KILL THE PANDAS I SAY!

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We need a Panda Season.

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Originally Posted by Bremnen

[spoiler]

Son I am dissapoint.[/spoiler]



We need a Panda Season.

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Open season should do. :p

I find it very hard to believe that we're all some random mess. There are too many variables and ways for things to go wrong. Our bodies themselves are examples of this. Our insides are kept at a stable 98.6 by various bodily processes 24/7/365. I don't know if you've ever tried keeping something at the exact same temperature day in, and day out, but it is very, very hard, and requires a lot of concentration. Even with machinary, there is no way to match the effeciency of the human body.

Also, there is literally a kill switch at the end of the DNA for all living cells. Why would microscopic cells write a suicide button into their own blueprint, then still continue to try and live if there wasn't some purpose for their lives.

And if you believe in the Big Bang theory, how could any form of life be contained in a little ball containing EVERYTHING. Even if there was some sort of life held in there, it would quickly have been extenguished by the massive change in conditions when the previously mentioned explosion occured.

Anyways, don't take my ramblings as a personal attack if you believe in any of that. I don't have anything against any of you. It's the ideologies that I question. I'm not saying I know everything, nor do I believe I'm better than any of you. I found grace, and you can too. In the meantime, I pray that you will all find your purpose, and I will now exit this conversation before I accidently start a flame war. Those are not beneficial for anyone.

RagTagPwner you have a poor knowledge of the topics you just brought up so I just want to say a few things so you have a slightly better understanding of things.

The human body does not stay at a constant temperature it varies. The body is in a constant state of changing many complex systems to try and maintain a temperature as well as many other factors, but there are constant fluctuations. In fact the human body is not efficient at regulating its temperature and still tries to use methods that do not work anymore; such as goosebumps which were suited to when we had much more hair and so could insulate ourselves from cold by making them stand up and creating an air layer.

I don't know what you mean by a killswitch but I think you might be referring to the telomeres on the end of chromosomes that decay everytime a cell divides and eventually a cell reaches 'old age' (senescence) when it cannot divide any further due to a lack of these telomeres (Hayflicks limit). In multicellular organisms I believe this is used as a forced way to kill cells to stop them mutating and becoming cancerous. Your body regularly does apoptosis where it deliberately causes a cell to kill itself for the benefit of the organism as a whole. So if you have a cancerous cell it will be told to kill itself and then you won't have cancer anymore.

In the big bang there was no life in the ball of energy, the ball for starters is infinitely small and a single cell of bacteria is vastly greater in size than that. Life is instead believed (by some) to have been formed by complex molecules forming millions and millions of years after the big bang joining and creating basic organic molecules. Indeed there are molecules in your body that are formed in the natural world without need for life.

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Originally Posted by Shermzor

Indeed there are molecules in your body that are formed in the natural world without need for life.

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Just reminded me of the Neil deGrasse Tyson quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil deGrasse Tyson

Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us.

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