Yuuen - its a tree thing

Hello LBPC =)

Thought Id give this level showcase thing a go ;p Im sure you can remember what it was like starting out yourself, its probably much the same now only the H4H and copy pasta spam has gone pretty much to pandemic status o.O; (and I refuse to jump on that train, ever!)

This is a straight up plat-former with a couple of little puzzles and its my first attempt at putting in a storyline (which Im not sure I liked doing - Im clearly not a salesperson!), not a huge fan of overly intrusive story lines or cut-scenes, so Ive made a concious effort to keep them short and sweet (10-12 secs). From your average gamer and up, the difficulty should be no problem. As much as Id love to make a tough level (and Im sure I will someday), Id rather keep it open and friendly to the masses as I start out in LBP.

If you do come across any issues/bugs please let me know! Ive only had my bf test the levels robustness and hes not the best player (probably making him a good test subject actually!) Otherwise, hope you enjoy!

http://lbp.me/v/3cqz5g

EDIT (adding some screenies)

http://i9.lbp.me/img/ft/b390df80f73b...112db43f4b.jpg
http://ia.lbp.me/img/ft/97af0b55abcf...dcc85825fd.jpg
http://ie.lbp.me/img/ft/83e6b772694c...a05ae49109.jpg


**EDIT** (adding vid clip)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78gsZMrcVWw

I played this level. I got stuck in the first puzzle. Could not complete it. Maybe it was me. I'll try this level again.

Cool, ty. I'll check out some of yours :)

I know I didn't opt for F4F, but I generally do check out anyone who plays my stuff anyway. Prefer not to have anyone feel obliged to do so. (the up side to being a small fish, it's easy to do :p)

Heyas Massey,

i gave your level a run, but i figured it might be a bit more helpful to expand on the Feedback here.

To tell the truth, i didn't get very far at all (which is why i didn't rate the level yet), just up to the first puzzle in the tree, but let's take a look a what we've got.

So first, there's the swimming/thing-killing section. Now your tree sprite character says along the lines of "The water's getting dirty and all the plants are dying," and you do right by giving us a camera swing over that way so we know that's where we're heading. But we jump in the water and where from here? Well there're those bug/floaty things, and they have brains on 'em so i know they're killable...but say you're a conservative player (like me) and want to run from a fight? Well you collect the point bubbles, jump back out of the water and run around looking for the next step until you figure "Hey, i'd better kill those guys." This isn't too bad, since there's not much else you can do i this area...but you could nudge a bit by tossing something like "Hrmm...i wonder if those bugs have something to do with it," at the end of the sprite's cut scene. Now it's clear to the player those are targets, not hazards, and they'll act accordingly, and the stage moves just that much quicker.

The bigger issue is the first puzzle section. You've got two buttons wired (i guess) to the same timer and a little-rolling-thing emitter. You've got a block of dissolve material with a timer (and no indication that the player is supposed to be grabbing it). You've got two, three visible switches, and maybe one more hidden behind a branch (i think. i was grabbing something, but i couldn't see what it was).
So, what happens here? i hit the button, some rolly things roll out into a spike pit, and a timer starts going down slowly. As yet, there's nothing else, so i run on, pull the first switch i see, and nothing happens. So i run on and pull the next switch i see (it's kinda hidden behind some metal work) and nothing happens. Then a wooden wall section with two wooden bits hanging off of it falls apart a bit, and then drops down a bit. And i still don't know what is connected with what, what switch does what thing, or just what you want me to do. Later on i notice that a panel comes out over one of the spike pits if i wait after hitting the red buttons, and i figure i need to get the other two panels covered too, but there doesn't seem to be anything to accomplish that.

So what can we do here? You don't need to give the player the answer to every puzzle, of course, but you do need to indicate (especially if there's more than one moving piece) what each part does, and where each part is. The second bit can be accomplished with a quick pan over the section with a short camera pause by each necessary switch. The first, by either having the switch effect on-screen or cut to immediately when the switch is pulled. Or if there is some timed element to the action, run a sound that indicates that (an easy one is the ticking clock sound, but there are others like the descending sound in the SF sounds).
If you need more than one switch triggered at the same time before the bit is solved (like switch A and B pulled before platform C will drop down), have a sub-effect occur. Something like having a green light come on over each correct one when triggered (or a happy sound, or any number of small indicators that pulling this switch was a good idea), until enough bits are triggered to finish the puzzle.

Now, if you've got a secret area, then there's no need to do all of that (as long as the player can at least see with a quick eye a hint that something's there) since you don't want everyone to find it, but if this is something that must be solved to progress, a few little indications of what's going on and how each puzzle piece effects the environment will go a long way to saving both you and the player a lot of frustration.

Sorry if this is a bit too verbose or touch to follow, all my language skills seem to go out the window when i'm typing. If there's anything here that doesn't make sense (of if there's a stupid miss on my own part...i've had more than my share of those), let me know.

Good day and great creating! And thanks for giving my stage a look over, too!

Well thats some review for the first quarter of the level!!

Thanks for the input, Ill see if I can give a bit of a response...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waffleking23

So first, there's the swimming/thing-killing section. Now your tree sprite character says along the lines of "The water's getting dirty and all the plants are dying," and you do right by giving us a camera swing over that way so we know that's where we're heading. But we jump in the water and where from here? Well there're those bug/floaty things, and they have brains on 'em so i know they're killable...but say you're a conservative player (like me) and want to run from a fight? Well you collect the point bubbles, jump back out of the water and run around looking for the next step until you figure "Hey, i'd better kill those guys." This isn't too bad, since there's not much else you can do i this area...but you could nudge a bit by tossing something like "Hrmm...i wonder if those bugs have something to do with it," at the end of the sprite's cut scene. Now it's clear to the player those are targets, not hazards, and they'll act accordingly, and the stage moves just that much quicker.

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Well, the elder says the waters are tainted with evil and that we must take action! *points* and queue camera zooming in on the water, theres not much room to run around on the grass and the water area is sectioned off so you cant actually swim that far away. TBH, that really seemed like enough of a hint to go over and deal with them ^_^ Id feel I was patronising the player if I point blank said "kill them ... or lets have a staring competition, your call"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waffleking23

The bigger issue is the first puzzle section. You've got two buttons wired (i guess) to the same timer and a little-rolling-thing emitter. You've got a block of dissolve material with a timer (and no indication that the player is supposed to be grabbing it). You've got two, three visible switches, and maybe one more hidden behind a branch (i think. i was grabbing something, but i couldn't see what it was).
So, what happens here? i hit the button, some rolly things roll out into a spike pit, and a timer starts going down slowly. As yet, there's nothing else, so i run on, pull the first switch i see, and nothing happens. So i run on and pull the next switch i see (it's kinda hidden behind some metal work) and nothing happens. Then a wooden wall section with two wooden bits hanging off of it falls apart a bit, and then drops down a bit. And i still don't know what is connected with what, what switch does what thing, or just what you want me to do. Later on i notice that a panel comes out over one of the spike pits if i wait after hitting the red buttons, and i figure i need to get the other two panels covered too, but there doesn't seem to be anything to accomplish that.

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Yes, after entering the tree the player is left in the dark, possibly too much so - I guess this is the part where one persons easy isnt another persons. Ill give some insight without giving the whole thing away.

The grabbable material just as you drop in was an afterthought which I didnt get to pull off what I originally wanted to do with it, I instead left it there as part of a trigger to destroy the first area of the level as there was evident lag if u leave it there. I could have just used a large player sensor to ensure everyone had left that area first (I actually do have it as a secondary requirement anyway) but figured that might draw a straggler in if he saw his sack buddy below playing with grabbable stuffs ;p Since there is a checkpoint visible on the other side I figured its something a player would try fairly quickly and the timer on it is left visible to ensure attention is drawn to it (I could put the R1 sticker there or leave the grab sensor visible, I personally hate when other creators leave *R1* spammed across the screen when its a likely action unless of course its really not something you would think to do - but again, each player is different I guess). Its not really an important element to the game so should anyone else object I can just remove it - its not important.

The 2 buttons are indeed linked to an emitter which will spawn an item needed to seal off the pits (the reason for doing that will become very obvious as you progress), the timer shown beside the spawn point was just to let the player know they dont last forever (you get a minute, which is more than double what you require and yes I considered having a tick tock sound player, but that would drive me mad after a minute since its not a mad dash to the finish and its part of the suspense!), theres 2 types of pits and 2 emitters ^_^ I figured 1 of 2 outcomes would happen 1> player bashes buttons, watches item roll into pit and sees it close, bashes some more and begins to realise some work and some dont.... continues to bash til it works (can only emit 2 of each kind, they refresh on continued button pressing) OR 2> a player would go examine the pits to see if there are any clues (the answer is yes, there are 3 characteristics - 1 being fairly obvious) and if I say any more on this there wont be another dot to join!

Theres no secret area, so no need to think your missing something or jump all over the place. There are 3 pull-able switches in the next area, I could give a clip to show what they do, reason I didnt is because the actions of 2 out of 3 are actually visible on screen as your doing it. There is 1 switch hidden, which has a light to draw your attention - but it could be clearer, I will make that stronger, it wasnt meant to be a great hunt for switches or anything. (Ill increase the light around that switch tomorrow, bed time for me now!)

And theres no major puzzles beyond that point, there is 1 section which I dont explain what 1 of the switches do, could maybe review that, I just dont see it as being any problem solving at all if I clip every switch - your kinda going through the motions at that stage ^^


Thanks for the feedback!

(EDIT: 1 last thought, if a sackbot meanie is running at you, leave your conservative side on hold and SHOOT XD - theres no negotiating with them!)

*nods* i dig what you mean about not wanting to lead players by the nose, it's just that presentation of things has a huge impact with how people will interact with that thing.
For example, were this a space -themed stage, say the spike pits look like terminals (with the spike hazard replaced with electricity, f'rex), and the rolling bits like batteries...a player'll see right away that one should be going into the other and react accordingly.

The puzzle itself hasn't really changed, but the experience runs much more smoothly (this is not, mind you, saying to make a space stage). The thing isn't so much, is this hard or not, as it is is there a logical consistency that a player will pick up on. i could make a puzzle where a player has to trade fried eggs to a judge for a lightbulb which they will put into a frog's mouth to open a door. If there's no indicator that's what they're supposed to be doing (f're'x, this stage is in Silent Hill), even if everything's on screen, and the puzzle is mechanically simple, there's no way they'll figure out what too do (except for randomly doing stuff til it works). One way to get that logical consistency is to present things thematically (as with the space puzzle), another is by keeping things moving on-screen (which, if things are buggy, can be it's own problem), and another is with sound/light/camera indicators.

Puzzle frustration can (of course) be on the player side as well, you can't plan for every ability or skill level (nor, necessarily, should you...if your intent is to make a real brain teaser or hell-difficulty platformer, then of course low to mid range ability players will get left in the dust, and that's as it should be).

If it seems i'm overly pendantic, bear in mind that i am a teacher, so it's part of my nature [sheepish smiley goes here]

Anyhow, i'll give this one another go tonight and see how it goes.

Good day and great creating.

whaaat? you never told me about this! I plan to play it tommorow. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LBNinja

whaaat? you never told me about this! I plan to play it tommorow. :D

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Well, now you know :p

Also made that switch more visible
http://ib.lbp.me/img/ft/c0bc1ced7a95...73c1baa308.jpg

2 things happened, I created with a different light than is present in play mode and the score bubbles are the last thing I put in the level, so the switch you can just about make out in the background in the middle was a lot more obvious at the start, I've removed the bubble that sat in Front of it and increased the lightening around it. It was only meant to be slightly obscured from view and easily found, on my test runs after adding bubbles I obviously know the level so intimately I went into auto pilot not realising how hidden it had become!

Hope this clears that up.

EDIT:
that pic is dated, area has been reworked to make things clearer

I played this level, considering you only started out I don't think it's bad, the main problem I had was getting lost!!

At times I couldn't figure out what to do and just wandered round for ages, so I would be a good idea to maybe add some directions like arrows and hints and stuff cause the puzzles are a little complex to figure out without any help!!

It's not bad other than that!! the story is intriguing and the characters are awesome especially the mother? I'm not sure about the rest
Shows real promise can't wait for the next parts to come

nice level, much variation and good gameplay i like it. tommorow i am gonna play your other levels.
But do you also want to play my level? I wanna hear your opinion :http://lbp.me/v/337bfc

@kipkorn played ur level and left feedback.

Thanks all for the feedback and a special thanks to MH4wheel who really gave me a huge amount of feedback which exposed some surprise loop holes :o

The loop holes have been sealed! Some renovations and tweaks made, fairly happy with it now. Although no further clues added for the puzzles, I don't feel they need them, they really aren't that hard ^^

Played through this again and still died all four times at the horrible gas bit!! Apart from that though it was quite fun, although I did notice one thing which you may have set to be like that or not but all the eh red guys at the start spit out horrible gas at the same time now as I said it may be a deliberate thing but in my opinion it's more natural for them to do it at seperate times! Also the way they spit the gas in the first place was awesome and the last thing I expected! I thought they were just plasma-fied or something lol

Well, first off, I really enjoyed the entire level. I liked the idea, enemies, objective, puzzles, and so forth.

I did get stuck on the first puzzle though. Eventually realized that the balls were coloured, and then after another while, realized spikes were colour coded as well :p. After that, it was great.

Along with the bug I commented on, there is a potential issue when you activate the switch inside the box (where you push a button to raise the 'gate'). If you stay in there to collect all the points, the gate will close again. Luckily I managed to wedge myself below it and get through, but it might mean a suicide for someone not so lucky.

Also, perhaps limit the number of enemies that emit. They were well made, but fighting them got a little repetitive. Also, another potential issue is that the enemies 'spawn camp' you. I never had this happen, but it seems plausible.

Good visuals, great originality, and a level that I honestly enjoyed. Overall, great work.

Played this level again and progressed further then I did recently. Glad to see the major problems fixed in this level as I really wanted to complete it. I got up to the part where you swing and avoid the gas clouds. A bit tricky for me and because of limited lives, my game was over. Maybe you should put infinite checkpoints at the more trickier areas for the novices (like me). Just a thought.

Other than that...so far, you have a decent level here. Visuals were nicely done and the level had a nice story behind it. There are some tricky parts in this level, but the challenge is still balanced well. At the first point where you have to shoot the platforms down with the paint gun while fighting those meany demons. Everytime I died, I got respawned a little too far back. That part was a little annoying. Just a minor issue due to my lack of expertise as a player.

Overall, this was a well designed level. I will try to complete it another time.

Thank you for creating and sharing this level.

Thanks again all, happy to hear it's getting mostly a good response and thanks to the feedback bug fixes and general improvements have been made.

@jordanmcc - gas cloud area has been slightly adjusted, speed is reduced a notch and the spawn area is slightly more over head to reduce the chance of starting off with momentum which of course too much will lead to a likely death. I've decided to keep it as a double life check point. As for the lil pink mobs in the water, they do both plasma and gas with a 4 sec window to kill them (can actually kill them while they are doing either of the other offensive actions if ur careful!), redistributed them and changed them to not all be in sync, your right it is more natural, something I meant to do and forgot.

@sstagg1 - thank you for spotting that bug and well spotted! Automated the checkpoint to prevent that from happening now. The other potential issues aren't actually a problem. There is a sensor in the room so you cannot get trapped in. None of the enemy spawns were infinite, (numbers have since been lowered further, but increased if there are more players) and spawn camping isn't an issue either as mobs will die upon your death if they are near the checkpoint.

@garak101 - glad you progressed. I'd like to keep the current checkpoint setup as is. As above the gas cloud obstacle has been slightly adjusted, the trick is to time ur grapple to grab directly above you to start with little/no momentum which is now easier to do as I've extended the spawn point to accommodate this. I'd perhaps consider another checkpoint closer to the ledge shooting area, seems excessive tho, since there are no obstacles just a straight 5 sec run back. Plus the frame rate lag is already annoying there, I'd have loved to decorate that area more but for that very reason I've left it alone.