Save on Thermo/Add infinite detail

bare in mind that the quality isn't perfect but used in the right way it can make your levels look stupidly detailed without using hardly any thermo! interested?

make anything you want: a full scene, an intricate set piece. fill the thermo if you want and then take a picture of it. take that picture and place it on a sticker panel. set the sticker panel to the brightness you want and place it wherever you want. you can make complex backdrops to put into one of the many 50 layers, you can make a back wall for your spooky levels. i've found that if you make it slightly smaller you get a clearer result. this is so diverse. try using it with Comphermc's infinite level trick!!!

to keep the parallax perspective put the sticker panel pic on a real material such as cardboard.

if you are really patient you can draw around individual creations with the slice and dice and then add detail to your backdrops or walls bit by bit.

edit: i've found that you can cut out better by using another sticker panel in which ever shape is closest to whatever edge you want to cut out of course

edit: I've done some more experimenting with this and it's not advisable to try and capture all of what you've designed at once because it loses quality. put your grid on and capture it in segments. just use the slice and dice tool here. for less symmetrical material designs use markers along the top and down one side (set at a distance from the main design to make it easy to capture the pic) and use these as markers for your slice and dice tool

this does mean using more thermo in the long run, but you can still use as many assets as possible and take a tiny bit of the thermo up compared to if you really used them. i found that a large grid of about 4 by 4 is fine for the backgrounds but a large grid of 2 by 2 or possibly 3 by 3 for the foregrounds. you can go larger, that''s up to you. try not to up-scale anything it loses detail. downscaling is fine though providing you don't go stupidly tiny. it's also handy for altering the size of some material designs such as stone for stone walls.

No I honestly did not think about this, I havent been around here in a while, but this is going to help me out a bunch, thanks man! :D

Surprised i didnt think of this before lol

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Originally Posted by Rpg Maker

No I honestly did not think about this, I havent been around here in a while, but this is going to help me out a bunch, thanks man! :D

Surprised i didnt think of this before lol

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i contributed!! i would suggest making whatever you make in pause mode and out of sight of the ground. i make the background blue because it makes it easier to see when i'm cutting around stuff with the slice and dice tool. actually it's easier to use another sticker to cut out. i've just filled my thermo up to a quarter making a detailed mosaic and the results are incredible. when shrunk to a reasonable size it takes a lot of scrutiny to tell it's just a pic!!! and my thermo is now EMPTY!

I've seen some people using the paint tool and this idea making some really interesting art. I'd say a lot of people aren't thinking about it like you are though. It takes a while to get out of a habit and try a new technique.

I haven't really tested this yet but it does seem that colour stays pretty true when taking a photo of sticker panel, meaning easier old style custom stickers

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Originally Posted by Mr_Fusion

I've seen some people using the paint tool and this idea making some really interesting art. I'd say a lot of people aren't thinking about it like you are though. It takes a while to get out of a habit and try a new technique.

I haven't really tested this yet but it does seem that colour stays pretty true when taking a photo of sticker panel, meaning easier old style custom stickers

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the only problem i've encountered is that the lighting no longer effects what you've created in the same way for obvious reasons. i just made a simple temple decoration, cut around it with other sticker shapes and placed it in a candle lit room to see how it looked. it looked pretty close to the original. the only thing i had to do was take into consideration the lighting and simply adjusted it on the stickers that were closest to the light source. i suppose you could make the whole level with this but i think it's best used for those details that always take up stupid amounts of therm. this has big potential though. you can now make the most complex backdrop you like, it doesn't matter if that backdrop takes up nearly all the thermo, once you take a pic of it the thermo empties... when you hide some of them 'in' the real material it adds so much depth. your eye simply can't see that there are stickers amongst the trees to make the leaves look thicker.

This would definetly help alot in a level I am making now... The only bad thing is that it seems like it would be hard to line up everything. I also agree with GribbleGrunger's newest post, which is one of the big problems. I will still have to use this, its free thrmo space after all and more detail is never a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by bikerider12

This would definetly help alot in a level I am making now... The only bad thing is that it seems like it would be hard to line up everything. I also agree with GribbleGrunger's newest post, which is one of the big problems. I will still have to use this, its free thrmo space after all and more detail is never a bad thing.

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are you referring to the light source problem? if you are i've found a sort of work around for that. if you set your scene up as you want it to look with light sources there and then take the pic, the decorations then have the right shadows. moving light sources such as candles are still a problem though. you don't have to set the whole scene up with this, just a mock up to get the light sourced pic.

lining up is a slight problem with some materials, but with others the symmetry lends itself to the slice and dice pretty well. for the less symmetrical materials try putting markers along the top and one side and use these for lining the slice and dice up with. providing you don't alter the size of the material when you sticker it in place, this is very simply done.

once you've got your detail you can also then add the real stuff to it to make it more 3D. the eye is then fooled into believing it's all real just like in my tree example.

While this technique is certainly inventive, it doesn't address the issue of shifting parallax and perspective that makes 3D backgrounds so versatile. I agree that this may work in some situations, but you can't beat a fully rendered 3D background that adjusts to the player's perspective as they move.

I would say this would be most advantageous when you have a cardboard cut-out type background rather than, say, gigantic stone pillars or some other three dimensional object that spans one or more thick layers.

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Originally Posted by schm0

While this technique is certainly inventive, it doesn't address the issue of shifting parallax and perspective that makes 3D backgrounds so versatile. I agree that this may work in some situations, but you can't beat a fully rendered 3D background that adjusts to the player's perspective as they move.

I would say this would be most advantageous when you have a cardboard cut-out type background rather than, say, gigantic stone pillars or some other three dimensional object that spans one or more thick layers.

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yeah it's really for adding detail than building whole levels, but there's nothing stopping you from stickering on cardboard in all the different layers which gives you that parallax perspective. you can make a stone pillar in real material and then completely cover it with jewels and other decorations. if you then sticker the pic to cardboard you get exactly the same effect because the base is a real material

I am already using snapshots of objects and eyetoy snaps on sticker panel to create depth in surfaces that have none. For instance, a picture of a sculpted relief on top of plain concrete; I set the sticker panel to reduced brightness, plenty of transparency and a color that works nice with the shade of the concrete. If the camera is not up close, it passes for real 3D.

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Originally Posted by Antikris

I am already using snapshots of objects and eyetoy snaps on sticker panel to create depth in surfaces that have none. For instance, a picture of a sculpted relief on top of plain concrete; I set the sticker panel to reduced brightness, plenty of transparency and a color that works nice with the shade of the concrete. If the camera is not up close, it passes for real 3D.

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Cool, i haven't had a chance try it out yet, I mainly wanted some more pretty environments for battles and now i can it seems; That thermo is a killer. I did notice a lot of the old turnbased games never really had full 3D environments too, i guess it all comes down to visual tricks in the end. Im not sure how this method of using stickers for enviornments will respond to rapid changes in lighting though...

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Originally Posted by Rpg Maker

Cool, i haven't had a chance try it out yet, I mainly wanted some more pretty environments for battles and now i can it seems; That thermo is a killer. I did notice a lot of the old turnbased games never really had full 3D environments too, i guess it all comes down to visual tricks in the end. Im not sure how this method of using stickers for enviornments will respond to rapid changes in lighting though...

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well that's the only real drawback. i've found that you can stick some on thin layers and give the impression that the decoration is casting a slight shadow but in actual fact it's the thin layer. in environments where the light source is stable you can recreate the lighting effect elsewhere and then take the pic. once that's done place it in the real level. it's a bit more work but it means being able to use dozens and dozens of decorations with no more cost to the thermo than one decoration, and that's fantastic.

i'm currently working on another idea for cutting down even more thermo with this method. i don't know how practical it is but i'm trying it anyway. this is how i goes: you make a huge area with no detail just plain material. you then copy that for a template. on this template you then put all your sticker panel trickery. once that's done you them delete the template bit by bit until you are left only with your pic decoration hanging there. you then capture that, you then place an emitter and have it emit over the original build of that section of your level. you could also do this with real decorations. link it to a player sensor with a reasonable detection radius so that it emits before you enter that section. set it up so that the textures you captured are destroyed once you have passed that level and move onto the next detection area for the next set of emitted sticker trickery.

sticker panels are the biggest innovation to hit LBP2 in my opinion. you can also use this for normal decorations too.

You guys are talking about making backdrops, but how do you make something that big without completely losing resolution. I can take a pic of a massive structure, but can't scale the pic to that size without it looking like a blurry mess. How are you guts getting around that issue?

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Originally Posted by CYMBOL

You guys are talking about making backdrops, but how do you make something that big without completely losing resolution. I can take a pic of a massive structure, but can't scale the pic to that size without it looking like a blurry mess. How are you guts getting around that issue?

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you have to take in sections and then join the pics later. a grid of 2 by 2 or 3 by 3 on large is best. it's a bit of a mess around but as long as you don't alter the size it's not that difficult to line the pics up. once you've lined them up you can force them into the back layers and they look like the real thing.this is really only a method to enable you to use dozens of decorations with the cost to thermo of one. distant objects are smaller anyway, so by making them smaller and placing them in layers not as far back as you would if you used the real thing, it gives the impression they are set back further anyway. it's best to make the backdrop out of basic material and then add the sticker panel decorations.

Have you got any example pics of this is the works? A before an after to compare.

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Originally Posted by LittleBigDes

Have you got any example pics of this is the works? A before an after to compare.

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unfortunately not and i'm actually working on a level at the moment that doesn't use this technique. i've made a wall with about 5 different materials and a few stickers and then took a picture, shrunk it and placed the sticker on plain stone material to see what it looked like and it looked great. i also created some temple decorations using about 10 different stickers and decorations and that looked great too. like i said though, it is a bit finicky but for anyone who wants to add another layer of detail that merges in with their current design it's a God send. backdrops are harder though and i haven't really had time to experiment because i'm determined to finish my level and actually publish something :)

i wouldn't know how to put a picture of it up here anyway... perhaps if someone could explain, if i get time i'll put the picture of my wall and temple decoration up. but only if i get time!

these two videos show roughly what i mean. i would have personally taken what he made, stamped it into some material and then taken that material and stamped it onto some sticker material (which is a technique i discovered today) that way the pic would fit the sticker material without the need to cut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz99L...f=results_main

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zLoU...f=results_main

This seems like a cool trick, any other ideas on how to save thermo? that seems to be a big problem for me, i simply resort to level links so far :l

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Originally Posted by Tyranny68

This seems like a cool trick, any other ideas on how to save thermo? that seems to be a big problem for me, i simply resort to level links so far :l

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yeah actually. remember these are only experiments and i've no need to use them myself yet. i've recently experimented with texture loading on the fly. you use cardboard or any other plain material and build your back layers out of it or any layer that you player isn't going to interact with (you may still need a physics based structure beneath for layer changing, but there's nothing stopping you from enirely getting rid of the initial structure entirely if it doesn't effect gameplay) you then create your pictures on sticker panels (remember don't try to take the whole image, break it down into separate panels otherwise the quality is terrible). once you have a part of your level looking as you want with the sticker panels in place, hide everything else and capture the sticker panels for that area. now you can destroy the stickers of an area you past through and emit the stickers of an area you are going into.