X9c - The beginning: Mr. Mathers

Happy 2012 Sackthings ^^/ :)

I've been cooking this level for many months (on and off!), and have finally finished the first instalment! I wanted to try make a sackbot level and more importantly one that supports 2P co-op (as I've seen so few). It has to be said that some amount of problems reared their ugly head when dealing with 2 sackbots at once (in co-op), but these were also my most enjoyable LBP experiences to date, trial and error logic creating at its finest!

I can see why most stick to 1P, not only the extra thermo and fewer complications, but having to pay greater attention to frame lag really tested me. It's fair to say I could have made a more special 1P level, but since it was my main goal to get a co-op sackbot level done, thats what I did!

There is a menu with tuts on the abilities. Heres a few snaps and a little video.

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...6c996d59a2.jpg

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...7119144566.jpg

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...3ffe31bbac.jpg

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...95acd5d140.jpg

(Direct Vid link for mobile users)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un7yzm3AFUo

Thanks for stopping by :love:

http://lbp.me/v/82wef4

The layout of the menu is very clean, but actually started me on the wrong foot. I didn't like having to load in and the alms immediate having to load another stage without warning. Anyway I replayed the level and looked at the other options first.

It is obvious that you have put a lot of effort and care into the menu and I like how professional it looks. Wasn't a fan of watching a tutorial video though... didn't see the point of that... I would have preferred to have actually been able to do that small test room.

Loading into the main stage opens pretty impressively and has a good atmosphere, but you are instantly greeted with a set of stairs that fills me with dread. The camera angle of the staircase, while building on your desired atmosphere, actually obscures your character and makes it difficult to perform the first few jumps.


Getting to the top of the stairs and seeing the points is good
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...3ffe31bbac.jpg

Using this image as an example I saw the points up there and tried to jump up to them, and died in the smoke, and was re-spawned all the way back at the van. I had to walk all the way back, I tried again, and died in the smoke. This is the first occurrence of points and the game is teaching me that the reward for taking such a risk is not worth it. The penalty for failure is far to great.

So I ignored them and tried to double jump the gap, as it is the first gap you are able to jump I am as the player unsure about exactly how far I can jump and the angle makes it even more difficult to judge.

I then died trying to jump the gap, and died again on the same gap, the camera shifts as you are jumping and you are tilting away from the safe zone you are trying to jump toward it does make it a little off-putting.

Having to walk all the way from the van each time is quite frustrating, I eventually realised that I needed to use the float power, but was reluctant to use it to try for the points as I did not want to die again, as the first time I need to use it is so far away from a spawn point and with nothing else really to experiment on your initial stage design isn't really encouraging me to experiment with my powers. As the penalty for failure is too great.

I really liked the design of the stage, but I think that you need to have more prompting about when to use powers and more spawn points place before potential hazards where a power is to be used for the first time. It lowers the risk/reward stakes and encourages me to test the boundaries of the game world and my powers, before any real danger is to appear.

Hey, thanks for the feedback, let me see what I can do! :)

May ask for a lil more info as Im not clear on some of the points (if you wouldnt mind :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr_Fusion

The layout of the menu is very clean, but actually started me on the wrong foot. I didn't like having to load in and the alms immediate having to load another stage without warning. Anyway I replayed the level and looked at the other options first.

---

Im not sure the issue on this one?
http://i8.lbp.me/img/ft/d18e3a5e6625...081092fe05.jpg
This is the menu, if you click start - the actual level will start. (Is the fact they are level linked what you didnt like?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr_Fusion

It is obvious that you have put a lot of effort and care into the menu and I like how professional it looks. Wasn't a fan of watching a tutorial video though... didn't see the point of that... I would have preferred to have actually been able to do that small test room.

---

My goodness, wish Id have known people would be as happy with that option! The circuit for the instructor grinds the editor almost to a halt and can crash the machine. It would have been much easier to throw you in a room and let you jump about and say thats your training!

There were a number of ways I could have done this (and the reason there is also a quick guide to tell you what you need to know, (ie, this thing -)
http://ie.lbp.me/img/ft/e1ec8b9f2cbe...96f4dbf7a4.jpg

I opted for a semi interactive video tutorial as just letting you jump around - for some - it may not occur that there are multiple uses of the abilities. For example, some may not take the hint that sprint will allow you jump further distances
http://i6.lbp.me/img/ft/3f60033f110b...741a6b9de7.jpg

But if it's not your thing, thats why I put in the get out early function (message 3 "hold L1 & R1 to return to the menu").

As for simply trying out the abilities yourself, there is nothing that can kill you in the opening area of the actual level, so you're free to jump around to your hearts content! The fire escape isnt particularly exciting, but its aim was to get you into the habit of using your abilities from the start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr_Fusion

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...3ffe31bbac.jpg

Using this image as an example I saw the points up there and tried to jump up to them, and died in the smoke, and was re-spawned all the way back at the van. I had to walk all the way back, I tried again, and died in the smoke. This is the first occurrence of points and the game is teaching me that the reward for taking such a risk is not worth it. The penalty for failure is far to great.

---

I actually didnt anticipate problems with the smoke :boo: Sorry about that. They are static, single layer and quite thin. You can stand anywhere on the small protruding vents fine and jump straight up (obviously if you tap into the direction of the smoke below and land in it, you will die)
http://i3.lbp.me/img/ft/483134337207...d97f8ba223.jpg
(Cant make me out very well, but Im on the edge of the vent, over the side with the smoke coming out)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr_Fusion

So I ignored them and tried to double jump the gap, as it is the first gap you are able to jump I am as the player unsure about exactly how far I can jump and the angle makes it even more difficult to judge.

I then died trying to jump the gap, and died again on the same gap, the camera shifts as you are jumping and you are tilting away from the safe zone you are trying to jump toward it does make it a little off-putting.

Having to walk all the way from the van each time is quite frustrating, I eventually realised that I needed to use the float power, but was reluctant to use it to try for the points as I did not want to die again, as the first time I need to use it is so far away from a spawn point and with nothing else really to experiment on your initial stage design isn't really encouraging me to experiment with my powers. As the penalty for failure is too great.

---

Your abilities (combined) can clear a distance of more than twice that of the gap and since there is nothing on either the front or back layer (on either side) to kill you, there is ample room to let loose (which is also why I did a funny camera angle, to an otherwise boring area - although it doesnt actually change to obscure any view until you have cleared the gap).

But, thats no fun having to go back to the fire escape over and over, I will place a checkpoint up top :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr_Fusion

I really liked the design of the stage, but I think that you need to have more prompting about when to use powers and more spawn points place before potential hazards where a power is to be used for the first time. It lowers the risk/reward stakes and encourages me to test the boundaries of the game world and my powers, before any real danger is to appear.

---

This is one of many reasons I'll never be a big creator ;p I really, really dont like giving out prompts unless something is genuinely hidden. If theres a long jump, use sprint. Gotta jump high? Use the gravity slow. Thats what the tutorials are for and stressed in the level info you have to use your abilities. As for actually sticking in a prompt to tell you when to use them after all that, is a step too far for me.

Thank you again for the input. :star:



EDIT:
http://ib.lbp.me/img/ft/7abf68f33a99...2d46ad57b5.jpg
Huzzah! A checkpoint =)

No problems, also its really interesting to see justification about a creator's choices.

For clarity, the comment about the menu is; you load in and most people will naturally hit 'start' and this will result in you loading into the next stage straight away... also meaning that they skip your tutorial.

Keep in mind that you did build the bot and it's powers so you are much more likely to know to sprint, double jump and then use the gravity effect.

As a fresh player it never occurred to me to do this... the idea of hand holding I do agree with you about, and I regret using the word 'prompting' what i really mean is if I you forced players to use a power or combination of them in a 'safer' environment to progress then you will naturally be teaching them about the gameplay mechanics that you are intimately familiar with.

A safer environment can have death but the penalty for trial and error shouldn't discourage experimentation. A spawn point near something dangerous is a perfect example. Experimentation without huge consequences will teach a player without prompts.

I think that one edition will mean a player is more likely to fling themselves off of an edge and try some button combinations, and won't be upset about having another go.

I will check your level out again, and hopefully I will get further and not feel so noobish if I die.

Well I really do appreciate all feedback so no worries :)

I understand now what you are getting at about the menu and I agree some will have that reaction. Unfortunately you can't cater for every persons mannerisms etc. There is already a 1.2 sec timer which disables controls when going to the menu ( so if you click on "guide", press O to return to menu, you will notice you can't move or click anything for a moment). Make it any more and it will irritate people and some don't want to waste a moment in the menu at all. Can't please everyone!

Also you are quite right about the sackbots abilities. I do know them very intimately coma I actually created that about 6 months ago. And the impact on the game dynamics are changed dramatically juggling between the abilities, I hope to exploit this better in later chapters. Look at the end of the vid when I'm on the trash pushers, should died so many times but thanks to the 2 hit rule of the flames I could get my second jump and managed to survive. Also using the gravity slow ability really mixes it up since it reacts to current trajectory and velocity, this can be a lot of fun!

(Hopefully you can follow above, driving ATM and Siri isn't customised for the Irish tongue yet!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Masseyf

(Hopefully you can follow above, driving ATM and Siri isn't customised for the Irish tongue yet!)

---

Lol, that is so funny to me for more reasons than I can say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr_Fusion

Lol, that is so funny to me for more reasons than I can say.

---

Lol, well say some, I'm intrigued!

Hopefully you didn't play my level for a certain few hours yesterday, I majorly broke it without realising. (nearly entire level is on emit/destroy, turns out while tweaking a section I captured it while some objects were emitted inside the emitted object and therefore didn't correctly disappear which screwed up that part >_<; - that'll teach me to replay every time I make changes I guess :/)

In my defence, rough edges and bugs are mostly caught by myself, as my "friends" testing and feedback leaves something to be desired:
https://p.twimg.com/AioA6ulCQAAEdVm.jpg:large
(EDIT: In case you think there is some context your missing out on, or that this was part of a conversation - nope, that's it)

Well, days later I found out what that bug was he mentioned - was actually just he played it during the time I had the segment captured with emitted items inside it staying eternal...!

Anyway, Ive done a number of things since.

I changed the menu, replacing 'start' with 'exit' and putting as the last option (I think the few that did play it hit start, went into game realised they didnt know what was going on and went back to the menu - at least that what I can gather from their play history). Added some sound effects and adjusted timer in tutorial section. Removed level link. (Also considered adding a test area you could just jump around in. Theres little thermo left, so it would be terribly basic and Im considering adding another ability so Id be doing over the whole thing again at a later time. For the time being, Ive added a tip from the drivers intro speech)

On the level itself, Ive gone back over it (a lot!) and made many adjustments.

Level has been made easier in general, with more slack on timers and trimmed lethal sections (pushers towards the end now have double the safe area to land on).

Cameras - the static ones at the early part of the level have had there zone and angles adjusted (less sloppy in 2P). Quite a bit of work on the bot cam on the 2nd section - it was following P1 with a tag for when I wanted to zoom in or out depending on what was called for, Ive added some logic to help 2P mode, it will now detect if your partner is falling behind and pan and zoom out to help it be a little more dynamic.

Refined the sacks logic, was able to trim away a little fat, making it more responsive/predictable and the less clutter means Ive gotten rid of the frame lag! (Wasnt much there, but very pleased adjustments achieved that - hate frame lag!)

Few hints have been put in.

A couple of (unlikely) scenarios where by you could find yourself stuck (2P) have been worked around (ie, P1 dropping to go on to next section while P2 person is waiting to respawn back at a checkpoint - typically that doesnt happen as the priority is to follow the alive player until near a checkpoint, but on the slim chance a death happens while under certain conditions(/radii) meant this could happen - it will no longer happen.)