Heaven's Howitzer

Hi I'm new on LBPCentral and I'd like to have some help with my tank. The problem is that it doesn't stop boucing which causes the canon and everything else to not function properly (cannonballs exploding inside cannon and many other nice things...:mad:)

If I can finish this tank, I plan to make a level with a story and I got some nice ideas for it (for now it's a secret!;)) but if the tank doesn't work, the level won't work either! :(

So just search me (Bibeau) or my level ([CAN] Heaven's Howitzer) on LBP, try my tank and leave comments (or a post in this forum) if you have any suggestions.

Here's the controls for the tank:

[SPOILER]

• Black pads - Used to open/close doors (like the top hatch);
• Yellow pad - Shoot the .50cal;
• Green arrows - Drive the tank forward/backwards;
• Blue pad - Activate/deactivate shields;
• Orange (brown?) pad - Shoot missiles;
• Orange (brown?) arrows - Aim missiles up/down;
• Red pad - Fire cannon;
• Red arrows - Aim cannon up/down;

To enter the tank, either use the jetpack to enter from the top (right besides the .50cal) or enter the normal way: grab the black pad to open bottom hatch. The black pad is located on the 2nd plane, right behind the rear wheels. If you grabbed it right, you should see a hatch opening in the middle of the tank.

If you want to exit that way, just grab the black pad on the bottom hatch.
[/SPOILER]

Thanks!

Tank mainly inspired from r22zg's tank, by the way.

Sorry. I wish i could help but i'm not a tank aficionado yet. I could suggest some stuff though.

-MAYBE the tank is too light?
-MAYBE your using too much of a spring underneath?
-level all the switches so when one or two players are in game, they don't have to run back just to get to the front.
-have you tried changing the tread material?

I like how you used your emitters! The force field? How'd you produce that? I've been trying to make a force field for a while.

Thanks for the reply!

I already tried to make my tank heavier (it's currently made of wood, the lightest unbreakable material I guess) with metal and stone, but it's just making it worst.

Also there's absolutely no springs on my tank. The wheels are connected directly to the chassis with motor bolts.

I don't understand what you're saying about the switches. You're talking about the front plane or the front of the tank? As you may noticed, I got a bit of a cale problem: too much stuff in too confined space. That's what it gives to not make plans before building things...:rolleyes:

For the Shields it's simple: I made shield objects (of course :)) from the blue VR material (from the MGS Pack) and electrified them. Then, I just set the emitter to no velocity (linear nor angular), fastest spawn speed (0,1s), shortest object lifespan (0,1s), max spawns to infinity and max objects at the same time at 1. So that way, each 0,1 second, a new object is spawn, forcing the old one to disappear (that's why there's a lot of blue smoke when moving the tank/cannon with the shields on)

Hope it helped you understand Shield basics (and for the record, that's my first shield attempt and I didn't know how to make them before this:idea:)

By the way, did you have a "physics issue" with the cannon, bending and moving down on it's own?

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Originally Posted by bibz

Thanks for the reply!

I already tried to make my tank heavier (it's currently made of wood, the lightest unbreakable material I guess) with metal and stone, but it's just making it worst.

Also there's absolutely no springs on my tank. The wheels are connected directly to the chassis with motor bolts.

I don't understand what you're saying about the switches. You're talking about the front plane or the front of the tank? As you may noticed, I got a bit of a cale problem: too much stuff in too confined space. That's what it gives to not make plans before building things...:rolleyes:

For the Shields it's simple: I made shield objects (of course :)) from the blue VR material (from the MGS Pack) and electrified them. Then, I just set the emitter to no velocity (linear nor angular), fastest spawn speed (0,1s), shortest object lifespan (0,1s), max spawns to infinity and max objects at the same time at 1. So that way, each 0,1 second, a new object is spawn, forcing the old one to disappear (that's why there's a lot of blue smoke when moving the tank/cannon with the shields on)

Hope it helped you understand Shield basics (and for the record, that's my first shield attempt and I didn't know how to make them before this:idea:)

By the way, did you have a "physics issue" with the cannon, bending and moving down on it's own?

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Here's something for the switches.
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8897/tankdiagram.jpg


I made this item i call "The Law" to destroy unwanted objects lying about. That was before i learned how to several objects with the popit. Now I use this object to test the strength of another object. It's basically an infinite bombardment of bombs. And I don't think the force field. worked very well on that. I'll try the shield on all planes.

About the cannon, it does go up and down. When i have it go down and let go of the switch, it goes up.

The cannon does weird things. I think it's because the two parts (the motor and "recoil" ones) are just too tight together and the stiff piston doesn't like it...

For the switches, that's what I thought, but there's not enough room (tank is not wide enough) to have the directionnal controls on both sides of the player. The switches are also already on the front plane. The only problem is the platform for the .50cal: it needs to have a certain minimal height or the piston will not work properly, which uses a lot of potential good space in the tank... :(

I don't know what is your point with your "The Law" object, but if you what you say is my shield is not on all planes, it is. The part of the shield that's on the cannon is 1 plane wide and on the back plane. The other part of the shield is 2 planes wide and occupies the front and middle planes.

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Originally Posted by bibz

The cannon does weird things. I think it's because the two parts (the motor and "recoil" ones) are just too tight together and the stiff piston doesn't like it...

For the switches, that's what I thought, but there's not enough room (tank is not wide enough) to have the directionnal controls on both sides of the player. The switches are also already on the front plane. The only problem is the platform for the .50cal: it needs to have a certain minimal height or the piston will not work properly, which uses a lot of potential good space in the tank... :(

I don't know what is your point with your "The Law" object, but if you what you say is my shield is not on all planes, it is. The part of the shield that's on the cannon is 1 plane wide and on the back plane. The other part of the shield is 2 planes wide and occupies the front and middle planes.

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what happens when you unstiff your piston?

I thought all your left and right switches are already at the right? I'm just saying you shouldn't elevate the middle room.

About "The Law," i'm still experimenting on how to make the force field invincible and cannot be penetrated between respawns of the field.

I'll try to lower the middle room if possible, maybe it'll help a little.

I don't know what it will do to unstiff the piston. It wil probably be better that way.

For the force field, I think it's just a matter of checking if your Law fires projectiles at higher frequency than the spawning frequency of your shield. If the shield spawns faster, it shouldn't let projectiles past it.

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Originally Posted by bibz

I'll try to lower the middle room if possible, maybe it'll help a little.

I don't know what it will do to unstiff the piston. It wil probably be better that way.

For the force field, I think it's just a matter of checking if your Law fires projectiles at higher frequency than the spawning frequency of your shield. If the shield spawns faster, it shouldn't let projectiles past it.

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I didn't play LBP today. Probably tomorrow.

Yeah it's been what, 2-3 days since I published my level and I didn't played LBP since then. Midterm exams... Yay...:mad:

Anyone else got some tips?

Hey I finally got some time to correct and remake my tank. You should go check it out!

Hiya! One of the first things I wanted to do when I got LBP was make a tank... From your description I'm not really sure what was going wrong... If you've fixed your problems I'd be curious to know what you changed. When I get home I want to check out your level and see what you've done.

rz22g's tank really does set the standard, doesn't it? It's a little cluttered for my tastes but it really is a nice machine and packs a lot of functionality.

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Hiya! One of the first things I wanted to do when I got LBP was make a tank...

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Yay, finally someone to speek tanks with! :idea:

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From your description I'm not really sure what was going wrong...

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Well, now the description (of the level, if that's what you're talking about) changed yesterday to something more simple.

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If you've fixed your problems I'd be curious to know what you changed.

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I think the main problem to fix (if you saw the older version, you'll know what I'm talking about) was to make the tank stop bouncing like crazy (it doesn't have any suspension at all, although it acted as if). What I did to solve the problem was to simply use a set of treads I made for testing instead of making new ones. I also changed the "options" on the tank (the .50 cal, the Canon and the shields remained, but I changed the missile launcher for a drone deployer) and redone the Canon (now it looks more like a cool railgun than an ugly lollipop :-P) so it shouldn't sag anymore. Now the treads are also made of metal and the rest of the tank is made from white wood (no stickers added), just to make it light and undestructible. I could do another version with cardboard to make the tank destroyable, but I think I'll finish the level first, so people can play it.

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When I get home I want to check out your level and see what you've done.

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If you want to find me easily, just search by username (search text "@Bibeau", without quote marks) or search by level name. I chose somewhat unique names, so I'm easy to find.

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rz22g's tank really does set the standard, doesn't it? It's a little cluttered for my tastes but it really is a nice machine and packs a lot of functionality.

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Yup, rz22g made some really clever controls and I added some logical gates I saw on multiple tutorial levels about logic to make some grab switches toggle between On and Off with each grab. Compared to rz22's tank, mine is somewhat smaller and it's got 2 "floors": one for main controls and stuff, and on top of it there's the controls for the cannon and access to the .50cal. Although I don't have multiple ammunition like rz22g's tank, I plan to add it later when I've done more of the main level. Also, since it's supposed to be Heaven's tank, it's all white, appart for the colored pads and the front window.

So when you'll have had a look at my tank, post some comments (here on the forums, on the level itself or both:P) so I can improve it, thanks!

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Originally Posted by bibz

Yay, finally someone to speek tanks with! :idea:
Well, now the description (of the level, if that's what you're talking about) changed yesterday to something more simple.

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Well, I meant from the thread here - I hadn't played the level until just now.

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I think the main problem to fix (if you saw the older version, you'll know what I'm talking about) was to make the tank stop bouncing like crazy (it doesn't have any suspension at all, although it acted as if). What I did to solve the problem was to simply use a set of treads I made for testing instead of making new ones. I also changed the "options" on the tank (the .50 cal, the Canon and the shields remained, but I changed the missile launcher for a drone deployer) and redone the Canon (now it looks more like a cool railgun than an ugly lollipop :-P) so it shouldn't sag anymore. Now the treads are also made of metal and the rest of the tank is made from white wood (no stickers added), just to make it light and undestructible. I could do another version with cardboard to make the tank destroyable, but I think I'll finish the level first, so people can play it.

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My early experiments were with all-metal tanks, using gears as wheels and tank treads with a lot of segments and teeth for the gears... Those did bounce around a lot and break frequently, because of the weight I guess. I haven't seen the old version of your tank so I don't know what was going on there.

I like the main gun (the gun on my tank is kind of similar in design, actually, though it fires differently) and the drone launcher is really nice...

Some info that may help you with your shields:
You can emit dark matter that intersects with other dark matter, or anything that's glued to dark matter and therefore immobile

So, therefore, you could have an emitter that emits a big circle of electric dark matter around your tank - lifetime of 0.2 seconds, frequency of one per 0.1 seconds, and max emitted at once = 2... And have a very stout shield. The only limitation would be that if something not immobile enters the area where the shield is to be emitted, the shield simply won't appear. (Basically, if the shield's already on, this would mean you're driving toward some obstacle which dark matter can't intercept...) You can minimize the effect of this problem by dividing the shield into multiple segments and emitting the individual segments from different emitters (so that if something gets in the way of one of the segments, only that segment will go out...) - and also by making sure that very nearly everything in your level is either glued to the floor or to a bit of dark matter somewhere. And if you didn't want to make the shield of dark matter, just gluing a piece of dark matter to it would likely have the same effect.

Of course, such a shield is still a solid object - if the emitted shield sticks around long enough for you to drive into it or whatever, it can impede your movement. I've actually seen this effect with your shield, too - angle the cannon up and turn on the shield, and it'll start interfering with the tank's movement. Once the tank got kicked up into the air by an explosion while this was happening - did a little wheelie and took several seconds to come down again.

When driving through your level, one of the ways the tank tended to get really screwed up was when a bomb destroyed the trigger to the machine gun - this caused the sound effect for the gun to constantly emit in the area of the tracks, which slowed the tank to a crawl. I guess the fix would be to move the sound effect to a different location (maybe make it a wafer-thin layer and emit it behind something, or between two sandwiched layers.)

The tank seems kind of slow and fragile... If I break that bit of terrain at the beginning and drive off it, the tracks break before I even fall off the part that's still standing. I'm not sure if that's due to the metal tracks, but I'm guessing that's it. Your fenders get in the way of the tank's ability to climb and the weight of the thing doesn't help either, I'm sure...

I feel like the tank's layout is uncluttered but maybe a little too spacious. Something that always bugged me about RZ's tanks was the process of scrambling from one set of controls to another. Your tank interior is easier to navigate than his but there's still a lot of running around. One style of tank control I found online (I forgot who did it) was to put the grab-switches in a circle around the player - the player could then select different functions by holding a direction on the controller while grabbing. I tried it for a while on my tank - it seemed like having all the functions on one ring was too much so on my next version I'm gonna separate the controls into two layers, fire controls on one layer, driving controls and exit on the other... In your case, you could, for instance, put the driving controls closer together, or the two drone controls, so that the different controls could be operated by a single player without having to run around.

In terms of level design, I feel like the tank levels I've seen are all fairly dull... RZ's seem mostly to be tech demos and feature a lot of firing at objects far enough away that you can barely get them on-screen before they chuck bombs at you and break your tank or kill you. I'm trying to find ways around that problem, too - I think making the tank both small and fast will be helpful in that regard. defense is helpful as well, of course...

Thanks for the feedback!

For the shields, I'll update the emitters this weekend (I don't have access to my PS3 'til about saturday), but the pieces of shield emitted are already containing little dots of dark matter. Maybe there's not enough? I'll also try the split the shields into smaller segments to see if it'll work better.

I know that the pads are a lot more vulnerable than the whole tank, but I made the bomb throwers just to test de shields in a worst case scenario. I can see these shields don't work really well and need some time to tweak them a little better, but I'm aware that the tank is fragile in general. Don't forget it's still the first "draft" of the tank, so as I'll get more feedback I'll make adjustments to make a better vehicle.

For the fenders, I was hesitating between mobility and appearance, so I left them as they are, but I was somewhat planning to redesign them.

As you see, there's a lot of little details to adjust to make it work properly.

For the spacing between controls, maybe I should keep it that way and make this version a multiplayer-oriented tank and make another version from this one for singleplayers (made with a circle-like control scheme). What do you think about that? I also don't know if the game lets you put two layers of grabbable material and make you only grab the pad on your current layer or make you just jump to the front layer when you grab. I the game is "intelligent" enough to permit multi-layer grabbing (if I can call it like that), It'll be easier for me to design a more compact tank.

For the levels, I know they are usually somewhat dull to play, but I plan to add a little story to make it more worth it and also separate the level into multiple sections (tank and platform-like sections) to break the linearity. But for now all that is still in my head and nothing is done yet but the tank.

So that's about it for today's post! :-P

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Originally Posted by bibz

Thanks for the feedback!

For the shields, I'll update the emitters this weekend (I don't have access to my PS3 'til about saturday), but the pieces of shield emitted are already containing little dots of dark matter. Maybe there's not enough? I'll also try the split the shields into smaller segments to see if it'll work better.

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I guess I should have realized this was the case - after all, the emitted shield never appears to move, just gets re-emitted as the tank moves... In that case I guess the thing to do is make sure the shield always clears the tank itself, with margin enough to still allow the tank to move - and make sure everything in the environment is glued down... Giving it a little more space around the cannon barrel is probably the most important bit at present.

The shields do seem pretty effective as they are - you don't want them too effective anyway or the game becomes a bit less interesting.

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As you see, there's a lot of little details to adjust to make it work properly.

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I hear ya. Seems to always be the way of things.

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For the spacing between controls, maybe I should keep it that way and make this version a multiplayer-oriented tank and make another version from this one for singleplayers (made with a circle-like control scheme). What do you think about that? I also don't know if the game lets you put two layers of grabbable material and make you only grab the pad on your current layer or make you just jump to the front layer when you grab. I the game is "intelligent" enough to permit multi-layer grabbing (if I can call it like that), It'll be easier for me to design a more compact tank.

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I know there are some circumstances where grabbing will snap you to the layer of a grabbable item - but I think this is mainly when you're moving. If you're standing still I don't think a grab can move you to another layer.

Alternate layouts for different numbers of players could work... I guess that's the benefit of a tank with lots of controls - there's more for a crew of four to do. :) In any case I think the spacing between controls could be tightened up a lot - meaning the spacing between controls at a given station and the spacing between the different stations. Though obviously you don't want everything packed in too tight, either...

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for now all that is still in my head and nothing is done yet but the tank.

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That's more or less where I'm at as well... It seems like it's always more fun to stress-test the tank than to develop the level it'll roll around in. :) Right now I have this huge hill, and an emitter at the top that drops little rocks in my path - I keep tweaking the tank and then go and make sure it can still climb the hill.

About half the time the rubble gets the better of me and I go tumbling down the hill, probably lose a drive wheel. Maybe a quarter of the time a rock manages to break my tracks... I guess the rest of the time is when I make it to the top, and then have to try to get down the other side without smashing the tank to bits. :) I think it actually is somewhat useful as testing - but in terms of the actual level I'm gonna make I don't think there's gonna be anything quite that demanding.

Nice! Did you publish your level or it's still on your moon? I'd like to give it a try this weekend.:)

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Originally Posted by bibz

Nice! Did you publish your level or it's still on your moon? I'd like to give it a try this weekend.:)

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Not yet. There's a few things about my tank that I want to kind of keep to myself until the level's ready... (I feel kind of lame saying that, actually.) And I kind of don't want my first published level to be an incomplete testing ground type of place - when I publish I want it to be something pretty good.

I wouldn't mind sharing the terrain park itself, though - it's pretty basic, of course, and the downhill portion isn't really finished (it just drops off at the end, making it nearly impossible to get a vehicle down in one piece) but it's fun to test different vehicles on it.

I haven't been able to get much apart from my own tank up the hill - I don't know if that means my tank is better at climbing or if it just means my tank is better at that specific obstacle... (Hopefully the former - 'cause I don't think difficult vehicle operation levels generally make for good play.) The rubble is the big challenge - it tends to collect at certain points of the terrain. When a tank rolls over a bunch of little rocks like that, it'll tend to immobilize the tank until the treads can spit the rocks out.

There's three things about my tank that allow it to cope with that hill - first, the tracks have teeth - I think this helps it to grab the terrain and the rubble, especially at steeper inclines. Second, it runs fast - around speed 16 for a wheel that's about 1.2 sackpersons tall. And third - sometimes I give it a little "sack assist" - jumping and holding to the right while holding on to the "go" switch to help the tank keep contact with the terrain. Even then, climbing the hill while the rubble emitter is running is still time-consuming and prone to failure.

I know alot about tanks and im happy to help, I'v made loads of army vehicles.

My tank also kept rocking back and forth bacause it had no suspention... so what i did was change the 3 inner wheels (of the 5 that touched the floor) to floaty material. this worked because floaty material can be squashed and shrink a little bit which allows the wheels to ajust and mold to the threads uneven serface.
I'll check it out soon.

I'll try that when I'll have access to my PS3, which means not 'til friday night...