It does make me wonder if they are going for a december/January beta and a summer release. Guess it depends on how the creator alpha is going.
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It does make me wonder if they are going for a december/January beta and a summer release. Guess it depends on how the creator alpha is going.
Naa, it's ready. They're just waiting for the best possible window to release it in. I think Nov for the beta, which will run for a long time to create content, and release in late Jan/ early Feb.Quote:
Originally Posted by koltonaugust
But do Jan/Feb releases do well? I know early summer ones often do. I'm not really sure how online games do throughout the year at all.
This is a game changer in my opinion:
https://twitter.com/Peter__Field/sta...11640264015872
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Yeah, many games have had a successful Feb launch. The reason Days Gone has been moved from Feb to April is because Feb is packed with big hitters such as Crackdown 3. Sony have taught the industry you don't have to pack the holiday season with EVERYTHING, you can spread what you have throughout the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by koltonaugust
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More on exit points:
https://twitter.com/Peter__Field/sta...80966585225216
https://twitter.com/Peter__Field/sta...85047122968576
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Streaming across level is likely planned for a future update:
https://twitter.com/marcoshealey/sta...70968631631873
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the exit things kind of the same as in LBP? You set up logic to activate a tag and a tag sensor receives that signal and activates the exit. I see why that would be important to many folks, but it's not a new thing, IF that's how it works.
I am digging the transition thing. Loading times could be really good and entering a dungeon like in Fallout 4 could go in roughly 5 seconds, if I'm correct. Very cool news.
Similar yeah. The difference is that all LBP was doing is connecting the levels, in that it would load the correct level next on finishing. This is now fully integrated into Dreams and it doesn't just connect levels, it automatically starts loading the level when you are close to the exit, meaning load times are a second or two. Another big difference is you can have 100 levels per game, in each of those 100 levels you can have another 100 levels etc, to the power of 4. 100*100*100*100 = 100,000,000 levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdkd99
Wait, where'd you get those numbers from? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 100 per level. Is that essentially 100 different levels links in one level? And where's the power of 4 coming from? Sorry I'm just feeling like I missed a good stream or something.
I remember them saying, that you can make 100 levels in a adventure map, 100 adventure maps with 10000 levels in total on one adventure map and so on. So it's big.
And the loading times are probably improved with this method. A lot.
https://youtu.be/VfM38g4Z8ns?t=1m21sQuote:
Originally Posted by koltonaugust
Cool gifs! Also, I just relistened to the level limit explanation and it TECHNICALLY sounds like there is no limit as the power of 4 was an example. All it sounded like to me is that 100 levels can fit inside a map, but a map acts like a level too.
Am watching the stream right now.
Man, the soundtrack by Tom was really well made. It's all done in Dreams. Doesn't even sound amateur like. Imagine folks with a really good mic. They can record professional music with Dreams. I don't think totally professional people will use Dreams to make a business, but for me it's perfect. I can make my own sounds, instruments and maybe even vocals. The sound tool is very strong. The sounds you record have higher quality than mp3 and one CPU core is used for audio. That is very exciting.
Also, the sculpting seems to be really fun. Kareem really enjoys using it and says that you just can't stop, because it's fun. I think I'll have a lot of fun, even with the normal DS4. You're getting used to it.
First Person also looks like a really possible thing. The horror house was fun. The end of it was also really funny.
What did you take away from the stream?
I've got to be honest and say, I don't like watching the sculpting. I've seen in hundreds of times by now and only really look for new abilities and toolsets. The horse was a stand out to me and I'd like to know how it was able to follow the lay of the land.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdkd99
Sculpting is complex and probably hard to do at first, but I guess you'll get used to it. Well, you still have the other tools to work with, like the logic tools or the audio tools. Also, I think the horse might have a skeleton to support movement like that.
While it was fairly simple, I liked the desert level. I'm thinking more and more about making a Mad Max like environment in LBP3 and Dreams.
Oh, I have no doubt I'll be at home with sculpting pretty rapidly. I'm just not interested in watching it any more, unless they use new tools. As a member of this forum and an avid fan of the LBP community, I can say with certainty that the thing WE want to see the most at the moment is the tools and the logic. Can't you remember how we used to start planning our levels based on what we'd seen in LBP2/LBP3? That's what kept us ticking over as the launch neared and that's what made this forum and others so active. We are creative people and need to see how we can create. We still haven't seen the text tool, the transition options or the HUD options. We need to see those, not yet another sculpt. There WAS plenty to see here but did anyone really get a great kick out of seeing pumpkins being cut out? Be honest, the thing that got us excited was the skeleton horse, the dolls house, the horror game or the new spline based tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdkd99
To be honest I really want to know how the text tools work and how skeleton rigs can be modified. I'm also wondering about more onscreen effects and how modifiable transitions can be.
The stream was fun anyway.
Yeh even though the sculpting looks quite fun to do yourself I've never really been interested in watching others do it. That's why my hype has only really started to build this past year or so as they've been showing more complex things.
How? Where???
Thanks for sharing
It's from a recent promo real but I'm waiting for a better version.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdkd99
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YoTKJKvByA
That tutorial gif slightly worries me as I was hoping for more interactive tutorials, like an option to pull up any related tutorials to a tool you're selecting (like LBP3's "advanced" mode, but instead of limiting options, just provide tooltips and links to tutorials that play in your level). What doesn't worry me is that there looks to be more than one tutorial set that is broken into small segments (Dreaming Basics, 1-12)
As for what I took away from the stream is that a lot MM people are still saying beta this year, so I'm pretty hyped for a within the full year release :)
As for sculpting, I definitely just walk away/skip ahead when Kareem comes on with his hour sculpts. I'll probably come back to it when Dreams is out, but it's very boring not knowing what buttons he's pressing and it's just long.
I'm certain you'll be able to select the tutorial you need for any particular task. It wouldn't make sense not to be able to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by koltonaugust
If people are wondering why I'm not posting more Tweets, it's because I'm not currently getting any responses. I reckon I bothered them too much so I'm taking a break. LOL.
Haha, looks like you asked them all.
Or they are scared of you asking questions. To be honest so many questions make folks nervous, they feel like the FBI is asking them questions.
Anyway, I think they're actually having some off time and preparing some stuff for the 10th anniversary stream.
Some new concept art created in Dreams:
https://vimeo.com/298242145
https://i.imgur.com/LfBridG.gif
https://i.imgur.com/xzzgSvD.gif
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I was thinking about what Healey said concerning Dreams and their future projects. I am now absolutely positive that development teams are going to be formed around Dreams, and I'm not just talking in terms of the 'community', I'm talking about legitimate companies formed around Dreams as the development tool. As MM start creating their own games with Dreams, they're going to continue adding features and abilities necessary to realise their vision which in turn will also benefit us and any companies that are built using the Dreams development tool. This isn't a game, this isn't even just LBP+, this is a legitimate and professional suite of tools. THIS is why they've mentioned PSN and possible monetization in the future and THIS is why they haven't ruled out a possible PC adaptation. This isn't a 'toy', this is real Folks!
We are about to step into a revolution and I find that exciting.
I don't know if that will happen, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that happened. Developers could use Dreams and if monetization is approved by Sony it is the next big thing. It would also come to PS5, so it can be future proof.
Exactly what I been saying for some years now about Dreams! This has the possibility of being so much more then some mere amateur developer toy like LBP was. Dreams has the amazing balance of being both entertainment and a developer toolkit all wrapped up into one. And it would be a big waste if it was made in the exact same way as LBP where each game is made to only last a few years and left to be slowly forgotten afterwards… which is understandable that people leave it before to long as there was nothing to gain from creating in LBP outside of building some creative muscles for the creators… it was only hobby work and nothing more for the user creators in LBP… which is ok if one doesn’t want to aim higher in their life or make more professional content… but when a creator does want to go farther, then they quickly are forced to out grew LBP regardless if they wanted to or not from it’s far to many limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by GribbleGrunger
I think it’s hard for many LBP fans and gamers to accept the idea of creators being allowed to make money off of their hard work even as a mere “option” because it threatens their idea of a free utopia where nothing ever costs money with everybody making stuff just for fun n giggles, and some misguided fear that all the best creative works will be locked behind a paywall. Times may change, but many people’s self-entitlement and desire for free stuff never does. I think it would shock certain people to hear how much the average artist charges if you want to commission them for artworks… Even paying $60+ only for a basic single character artwork from a decently skilled artist is a fairly common and reasonable price honestly… with many higher end artists charging multiple 100s of dollars for the same kind of request. I’m gonna post this video below that goes into more detail on the subject of people demanding free creative works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X5fE0BuasM&feature=youtu.be
Yes i'm aware this video is mainly about art, but I believe the concept works the same with most other kinds of creative works too.
And just to say it before anybody worries, nobody should worry about absolutely “EVERYTHING” costing money no matter the result... because even popular artists for example still make art just for fun between work and upload that stuff for free often. The same can be said about any future creators in Dreams if a option existed to turn our projects into professional products. Point is creators will still make hobby work content for free even if they can make money too, it‘s just how most creative people work in general.
I do hope we can import our Dreams projects onto PC and continue to work on them on there too if desired at some point, it really would greatly increase the life of our works!
It's a dream of many people to earn money by doing what they love. People want to be professional gamers, people want to be YouTubers, people want to be developers and what not. It sounds really exciting. I personally just feel like many people who started chasing their dreams and doing their hobby as a job get bored and burnt out, because they have to deliver content to survive, not because they had an idea. I've seen quite a few people who quit after some time. But I know a few people who are still doing what they love with much dedication. It's a personsal decision.
Dreams itself won't have monetized games and options for people to just monetize their game. MM is going to figure that stuff out though and they want to use Dreams for future projects and from what I heard they want to offer Dreams like a engine for people to make games with it.
Dreams is going to be PS4 exclusive. It is going to be available for PS5 at some point as well. There are no plans for a PC port or a PC companion app. And while the PC offers many advantages, I personally enjoy working on the PS4 platform in LBP3.
On the camera in the LBP level:
https://twitter.com/monsterplant/sta...48604545257473
I have no desire to see Dreams' games monetized, as it was never built for that. The engine seems to be built for much smaller pieces (though depending on how you can string them together this doesn't really mean anything) that I honestly wouldn't buy. Another reason I wouldn't want this project to be monetized (in it's current state) is that it would mean restricting access, and having to deal with royalties. Mm has a LOT of kid followers (they make family friendly games) all of whom would not be allowed to monetize their game (even this isn't consistent as different countries have different laws). For me, if one person isn't able to monetize their game in this (most likely) 60 dollar game, no one should be able to. I also very much admire the vision that Mm has with the free games. That being said, if Dreams was more feature rich (meaning getting nitty gritty with controlling EVERYTHING), then I could see it being marketed as an engine.
Also, interesting about the multiplayer camera. I'm assuming that's like a gameplay camera in LBP as it clearly used a cinematic camera at the end of the LBP level.
It sounds to me as if they've got generic camera set ups you can choose in order to make like easier. Perhaps a side scrolling camera, a fully 3D camera and a isometric camera. That would cover most things.Quote:
Originally Posted by koltonaugust
They already talked about in the past that if they end up allowing other games made from Dreams to be sold that they would have to be sold separately outside of Dreams as their own standalone games. And who bloody cares if kids can't sell their projects too!? That's exactly how all game developing tools work just like how Unreal Engine 4 works... or how anything else in life goes for that matter. Why should adults suffer because of kids not being allowed the same things? There is no logic in that line of thought, like at all. And far as projects being to small.. just like you already said in your note, Dreams creators likely would be able to string together their level projects in a similar fashion to how it is on LBP3 with adventure maps already... plus as a note, if they allow it then even small projects should be allowed to be sold, Dreams would not only be used to make games... as movies and just plain art would exist too... And people do buy art as I said not long ago, so don't get me started there again.Quote:
Originally Posted by koltonaugust
MM talked about the idea. Allowing developers to use Dreams to make games that are sold outside of Dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by koltonaugust
I have a rather critical view on monetizing games like LBP or Dreams. To me its a contradiction to the "play-create-share" idea, which had made LBP so special! And which hopefully is also a basic idea of Dreams. I just try to imagine what kind of community we would have today if monetization would have been an option in LBP. I think that we would have more rivalry, we would have less helpfulness, I'm in doubt whether we would have a 10th anniversary at all. Just imagine you visit any creator on its moon and first you have to sign some convenants about the possible profitsharing or a waiver. I would foresee a lot of arguing and suspicion and a loss of the happiness and fun character, that made the LBP community and the forums great.
Sure, really good creators spend a lot of hard work for their creations, thats a cool thing and I totally enjoy playing such levels! But thats part of the play-create-share idea, its always been part of it.
You see, I'm no fan of monetizing ideas, I see levels or dreams with product placements and commercial breaks!...What a nightmare!!
Puh! I woke up just in time! :)
Many greetings, Jürgen^^
Agreed. I'm a member of Resetera (nfortunately) and we've got a small but active Dreams community there. I've noticed the topics have frequently turned to remunerations, rights of ownership and a PC port. I've tried often to divert the conversation away from those topics because of the very things you've said here. I differ slightly in that I don't completely rule out the possibility for some time in the future. I just do not think building a good community is served well if mercenary thinking is centre stage right from the off. Give it a couple of years to embed the same dynamic we had in the LBP community and THEN consider these topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousSack
Can you imagine playing a level in LBP or Dreams and only being able to play part of it and then a message comes, "To see the rest of this level, remit payment to Paypal" or something like that? Ridiculous.
Anyway, something caught my ear in the Birthday stream on Friday. Alex was commenting on the LBP dreams creation and said there are no textures in Dreams. Wait, what? So, to create a brick, tree bark, wooden table, metal casing, I'll have to paint it to look that way? Did I understand that correctly? I don't like that at all, not one bit.
Yes, you heard that right. There are no textures in Dreams. It's probably something you've overlooked or perhaps you haven't followed the development as closely as others? Just to clarify, that's not a criticism, that's an acknowledgement you may actually have a life beyond the internet!Quote:
Originally Posted by biorogue
The engine Dreams is built upon uses splat technology and not your normal polygonal set up. When you load a level up, or anything anyone has created, you do not load in what they built, you download 'how they built it'. It literally reconstructs in real time what strokes, tools, manipulations you used to create the finished item. So, in order for it to add textures, it has to use exactly the same technique.
This is actually a very important thing to bare in mind when building your levels or assets. Someone could make exactly the same thing you made but use less thermo or more thermo depending how they arrived at the finished result. For instance, if you were to create a town and built each building separately, the thermo would take each as a separate sculpt, however, if you were to take one sculpt and copy it hundreds of times, it would use up far less thermo because all it's doing is taking the 'process of construction' data and applying it with added 'location and orientation' data.
You could spend hours building a spiral shape for a shell for instance. Everything you did to build that spiral would be stored. All the intricate sculpting and adjustments. If you took a square shape, spun it and then drew the shell, even though the finished result looks the same, it will cost less in terms of thermo. That's because it's simply adding the data you've 'spun' the square and then moved between point 'a' and 'b'. The detail it created isn't stored as data, the process of the method you created it is.
I have a feeling we're going to get so many tips and tricks related to this. Just to add (and I was disappointed with this myself) the emit/destroy technique is of no use in Dreams. Anything you emit HAS to occupy space in the game and isn't stored elsewhere. Who knows, that may change in the future but right now that technique isn't a viable solution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9KNtnCZDMI
Wow, thanks a lot for this informative explanation! :)
Something I forgot to mention that also pertains to thermo use: If you take a complex shape and create another shape by mashing it together several times, Dreams automatically erases unnecessary edges and detail that are hidden 'within' the finished sculpt. To help visualise this, imagine a small square placed inside a larger square. Because the smaller square cannot be seen, Dreams dispenses with it. But note, it will only do that IF you select the finished item as ONE sculpt. If you don't then that small square still exists because Dreams can't assess whether you may want to use that hidden small square in some other way, such as sliding it out to create a raised platform. Basically, always remember to select the finished item as ONE sculpt in order for Dreams to calculate which edges/details it no longer needs to store as creation data.Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousSack
Going back to my original post, if you watch the Dreams streams you'll notice they always use the clone tool. Or they'll create a square with each side having a different design. That's because of what I said above. If you built something with squares and used 6 different designs for each, it would take up nearly 6 times the space of just building one square with a different design on each sides. They've been instilling in us the best way of designing levels without actually explaining why. It's pretty clever actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousSack
Holy mew you people can't think reasonably about this can you? Must it always be the worst-case scenario? Dreams itself wouldn't be monetized as the games/products made using it as a engine would be sold separately outside of Dreams leaving Dreams itself and it's community untouched. Maybe I could understand the outrage of the idea if the main Dreams game itself allowed monetizing, but that's not the concept here. I guess I should not be surprised that most gamers still can't be mature about this subject and continue to demand their "Free Utopia." Yes it does not impress me to hear people not even wanting others to have a "option " to make money and those people's hard work should be treated only like a toy... a joke basically. Look at it this way, If I told you guys that you should not be allowed to make money off of your actual jobs and or things you are very skilled at just because it ruins the idea of a free community, I can promise you that chat wouldn't go well and would make me look like a monster... as it should if I did that.Quote:
Originally Posted by biorogue
And on another yet semi-related note. While I am not sure if MM will handle this any differently then LBP. There is also the fact if anybody in Dreams wanted to create a M rated game... such as "God Of War" ... they are super likely out of luck unless they can sell their games separately from Dreams... I REALLY doubt Dreams will have a mature games section, and i'm not saying the main game itself needs it whatsoever... But personally i'm not very interested in making games for children and never have been... and i'm sure many others feel the same even if not at the same degree as me. So realistically the only way I could see that being allowed is if we can make our games separate from Dreams itself only using Dreams as a ENGINE... otherwise we will be stuck with the same dull PG/10+ rating limit for are works as LBP. Maybe that sounds good to some people, but for others it's super limiting to their artistic expression... And that's not a good thing obviously unless you are a tyrant who believes in controlling others while only caring about your own interests.
As a note I will say this. Even if we don't end up being allowed to sell our levels as games/movies/whatever later... Last I heard we already know MM at least will be allowing us to 3D print out our 3D models made in Dreams as I read that multiple times by them. And of course we can sell those 3D models on our own with whatever personal methods. Meaning there will already be ways to make at least some money off of our works in Dreams regardless! HAHA!
Anyways as I'm sure many people here will keep disagreeing with me on the subject, furthermore as there is nothing else left for me to say on the matter without repeating myself. So to the delight of some I'm sure.... i am gonna go ahead and just drop the money subject for now. It's tiring, stressful and getting in the way of my work. Plus I don't really want to derail this topic farther either.
I don't really see the money thing as derailing the conversation as it was definitely mentioned in a recent stream (though this isn't the thread for the stream, I don't think it really matters since it's more of a dreams news thread and every stream has more news. Plus the two threads would just keep intersecting).
I do see your point (Lord-Dreamerz) about the amount of work put into dreams and wanting some reward out of it, but I always kind of get this "ech" feeling when that is mentioned simply because I think of Skyrim mods and RPG Maker. I'm gonna throw out Skyrim mods because your point of separate games null and voids that one. On the RPG maker example I'd say i've only liked about 3 games I've ever played from that and one was a pokemon fan game. Granted, Dreams has more creation tools than RPG Maker and is easier to just pick up and start. My main reason for me not wanting Dreams monetized is that based off of what I have seen, it's not a full engine. Now don't get me wrong, it does LOADS more than a lot of monetized engines out there (music creation, asset creation, etc); however, in regards to the game engine itself, it's lacking (no clear way to change how things are loaded (this might be untrue but everything they've said so far indicates this is the case), not that great of lighting and shadow effects, etc. Now realize as I say this game is lacking, I am actually VERY happy that these features are lacking as that is what makes this a game. It's like how java doesn't have you dealing with garbage collecting, but 20x more of an effect. Due to those reasons I'm a leaning no to no on my opinion. HOWEVER! Given one more iteration (a sequel) with monetizing and standalone games in mind, I do believe that Dreams would easily compete with unreal and unity. Phew. That was a long winded response.
"I guess I should not be surprised that most gamers still can't be mature about this subject and continue to demand their 'Free Utopia.'" - I actually think that a lot of gamers are on the other side of the opinion spectrum than this site. I'd be surprised if LBPC were in the majority on this matter.
As for the M rated content. I REALLY hope that MM doesn't moderate harshly if at all. I wish that there were some way to use the PS4 parental controls (giving instructions on game bootup) to filter levels automatically. I would love if people with out parental restrictions could submit tags/checklists of things the level included (blood/gore, nudity, drugs, language, etc.) so that the level author couldn't place it in the wrong category. This would keep the kids whose parents care (psh, overachievers :P) out of bad levels and let others post what they want. Of course this summary of a system is underthought out, but hopefully something is in place!
P.S. on a positive note on the moderation, they seem fine with violence, just maybe not loads of gore (like if you turned off blood in house of the dead (theyd probably actually be fine with green blood). This is coming from 2 streams, one where they built the gothic castle trap and more convincingly the Halloween stream where you got your head chopped off by a skeleton.