How To Cheat The Thermo

[rtm223]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think that would work. If you modify the blocks, then recapture, they lose their association with the emitter, even if you capture the emitter with them, so when you place that 'scene' into the emitter, it charges you the full thermo cost.

It will charge the full cost for scene C, but charge you nothing for scene A, as it is a modified version of scene C. Not entirely sure it gives much benefit, and it would be a right pain in the butt, but conceptually it's kinda cool nonetheless.

I don't think the game penalizes you that much for the actual amount of memory that the vectors take up, after all, it's completely marginalized by the amount of space that the maximum number of custom sticker bitmaps would take up.

True, but custom stickers could be loaded into working memory as required. All verteces in the level are liable to be in working memory.

Ditto for prize bubbles, which despite taking up very little thermo, actually have to store all the data about the objects contained within, somewhere in the level file.

Again, no need for them being in working memory either. The actual prize in the prize bubble takes up zero thermo, probably for this reason. Why load the object into memory before it is needed, it can be stored on the HDD. Obviously, pure speculation, but isn't that the way you would make it?

All the complexity of the objects needs to be stored and manipulated in realtime. I'm just saying that this method, whilst awesome, could be dangerous. At some point, as you say in the OP, the level could get to the point that the engine can't handle, for any number of reasons. I'm not saying that I won't be using this, but when I do, I'll be using it with caution.


@luos: yes, rectangles can take up less complex shapes thermo than free-form triangles, from what I've seen. The complex shapes thermo is by far the hardest one to second guess and predict IMO.

[Aya042]

Out of curiosity and interest, have you already used this technique in a full length level?

No. The idea came to me in a drunken stupor after I got home last night. I scribbled down some virtually illegible notes, and then passed out.

I was convinced that it wouldn't work until I tried it out today, and was somewhat shocked by the results.

Do you think this is reliable when applied in a full length level?

Again, I have no idea. I'm doing more experiments to see how stable this is. I'll update the thread with results as I get them. The reason I'm posting this finding before finishing my tests is that it will allow others to test it out too.

Not true, sometimes more vertexes can result in more optimal polygons, resulting in being smaller in filesize.

I can't think of any examples where that would be true. Surely for every extra vertex, one additional face is created on the edge of the object, and each additional face requires extra polygons to render it?

[RoharDragontamer•]

No. The idea came to me in a drunken stupor after I got home last night. I scribbled down some virtually illegible notes, and then passed out.

I was skeptical about playing with this method until I read this! I've made all my most important advancements using this very technique!! (Except I actually try to create stuff holding one hand over my left eye so the screen stays in focus.)

[Aya042]

It will charge the full cost for scene C, but charge you nothing for scene A, as it is a modified version of scene C. Not entirely sure it gives much benefit, and it would be a right pain in the butt, but conceptually it's kinda cool nonetheless.

Ah. I see what you mean. Yeah, that should work, but it would, as you say, be a right pain in the butt.

True, but custom stickers could be loaded into working memory as required. All verteces in the level are liable to be in working memory.

I'd guess that the custom stickers probably are too, but I was more referring to the filesize of the level on disk, rather than its memory usage. However, given that even the largest of LBP levels aren't actually that big (in megabytes), you could probably load the entire level into active memory anyway.

At some point, as you say in the OP, the level could get to the point that the engine can't handle, for any number of reasons. I'm not saying that I won't be using this, but when I do, I'll be using it with caution.

Well, I'd recommend caution regardless. LBP has its share of bugs, so it's always wise to make regular backups. I mean you can seriously crash the game just by creating an object that only has two vertices.

I'll update the thread with results as I get them.

Okay. I've completed a test whereby I have blocks of all 210 material types in the same level at the same time, and there seems to be no adverse rendering issues (which is a shame, because I was hoping to trigger the transparent sticker glitch).

This means I've seriously exceeded the materials thermo limit, and the game can cope just fine, so even if you only use this technique to use more material types than it would normally let you, you should be fine. FWIW, the thermo is only at the first notch, which is what it costs to have 300 blocks of DM in a level.

Next test is to exceed the moving objects thermo...

[v0rtex•]

Why are you people so concerned with v0rtex count!? There is only one and I am the very bes...

*pauses to listen to casual bystander whispering in ear*

...oh... VERtex count. Right. Carry on.



On topic though, this is a really cool discovery, though as several have mentioned, potentially very dangerous. I was fascinated by the fact that I can load up the emitters in my Virtual Reality Survival levels to the point of overheating, but if I go through and drop the Max-Emitted-At-Once to zero on all of them, my thermo drops back down to 3 bars ( and those are for the actual deployment logic).

[rtm223]

On topic though, this is a really cool discovery, though as several have mentioned, potentially very dangerous. I was fascinated by the fact that I can load up the emitters in my Virtual Reality Survival levels to the point of overheating, but if I go through and drop the Max-Emitted-At-Once to zero on all of them, my thermo drops back down to 3 bars ( and those are for the actual deployment logic).

Well of course, those objects you can't emit will never be emitted so don't need to be taken into account during play. They will bump up the filesize, but they aren't significant to the engine in any way



OK, I have an update. Good and bad news here people (mostly good)

Summary:
Good News: You can push the complex objects thermo beyond it's normal point using this.
Bad News: If you do, you will not be allowed to add new objects to the level. This will make it very hard to actually develop with towards the end of your level. Ideally you would want to keep a bunch of emitted squares in reserve so that you can use them for tweaking at the end.
Good News: You can corner edit existing objects, which will contribute to the thermo that is shown, Mag switches and the like, that have no physical properties are fair game to add, as are connectors.
Better News: It all seems moderately stable. Unlike when you normally overflow the thermo, emitters and paintenators do still work work, it's just that you can't place new objects in the level.

I'm going out, but I'll publish exactly how I came to these conclusions in a bit, so you can pick any flaws with it. It's basically a case of creating the grid of dark matter, (nearly) maxing out the thermo with normal objects and then corner editing some of the emitted dark matter.

[Aya042]

I'm going out, but I'll publish exactly how I came to these conclusions in a bit, so you can pick any flaws with it. It's basically a case of creating the grid of dark matter, (nearly) maxing out the thermo with normal objects and then corner editing some of the emitted dark matter.

Thanks for that, and in advance for when you publish how you came to these conclusions.

I shall still continue to run my own tests on this, but I'm off out too in an hour, so I'll have to do it tomorrow.

[rtm223]

OK, so here's what I did:

• Create your 100 pieces of Dark Matter
• Capture
• Delete
• Emit them in create mode
• Place a paintenator (for testing).
• Create a complex shape (as complex as you can make an individual shape), preferably out of dark matter, so you can't break it easily.
• Copy and paste that as many times as you can.
• Fill up the rest of the complex shapes thermo with squares of dark matter.

At this point, if you corner edit one of those squares, you should overheat pretty quick.

• Delete one vertex to drop the thermo back to just inside maximum.
• Corner edit another normal / non-emitted square, you should be able to break the thermo with a couple of verteces (this is just for control).
• Undo that.

Arguably, if the emitted squares were equal to the non-emitted ones, then we should not be able to add more than a couple of verteces to the emitted squares:

• Grab one of the emitted squares.
• Corner edit that, just like the normal / non-emitted square.

You should be able to corner edit this to
your heart's content. This demonstrates that the emitted objects allow you to exceed the normal thermo limits.

Feel free to do some of the things you can't do from the OP. The thermo will overheat each time. Again, this just demonstrates that all aya said was right.



Now for adding new items to the level:

• Delete one of the normal / non-emitted squares.
• Try to place a new one. You will not be allowed.

You can delete a few of these and it will stil not let you, even though you should have cleared up some thermo to add items to the level.

• Retrigger the emitter.This will undo the extra verteces you created in the emitted object.
• Place a square of dark matter. This will be fine.

So, obviously the extra verteces are taken into account in some way, even though they don't overheat the thermo.

Rewind to before the point that you retriggered the emitter, so you still have the bonus verteces. Check that you still can't add a square manually.

• Add a new emitter to the level.
• Set to max at once 1, infinite lifetime
• Place a previously captured single square of DM in there.
• Play. It will emit

This is more useful if you want to import a contraption, prebuilt object, logic piece or something like that into the level, without the hassle of having to build from scratch out of the emitted squares.

You can either keep that object as linked to the new emitter, or simply delete that emitter, which will make the object like any other non-emitted object in the level.


Note that the paintenator still works. Which is always a good test that the level has not overheated in play mode. Also the above trick with the emitter will also help things.

[Aya042]

OK, so here's what I did...

Thanks again. I've just come back from the pub [*cough* who said "alcoholic"? I deny everything ], so I shall take a closer look in the morning.

[Incinerator22•]

Holy &%$$... This is bigger than the layer glitch.

[rtm223]

When you do, if you have time, try the following:

I found that that you could cut out the objects (using another material and pressing triangle) that you have emitted. You coul duse this to really demolish the thermo quickly by cutting each of the squares into complex shapes. I'd guess (didn't think to try) that once you reach the point that it won't let you place any more objects it will stop you from cutting.

At that point you could try emitting a nearly full thermo full of other complex shapes into the level. It should let you do that and you may have double the complex shapes thermo allowance. Might be interesting to see what that does. Probably not that great an indicator of anything much, but might yield some useful info....

[Incinerator22•]

I sure hope this doesn't get patched

[warlord_evil]

Cheat the thermo!? You can't cheat the thermo, the thermo cheats you!




Very nice find, although I don't think I'll be using it as I don't really have problems with the thermometer too much.

[Aya042]

OK, so here's what I did...

I used a slightly different method.

First of all, I worked out approximately how many vertices you can have normally. For this, I used a square of DM, and cut a sackboy shape out of the middle, which is a fast way to add another 53 vertices to an object. Then I copied and pasted as many as I could until it wouldn't let me. Result was 297 copies before the thermo overheated.

Then I tried again by emitting 400 squares of DM, and cutting a sackboy shape out of each one. The thermo didn't go up at all while I was doing this, but after the 369th sackboy, it wouldn't let me cut any more, and I got the complex objects warning, even though the thermo was still only at 1.5 notches (of 16).

The implication here is that there might actually be two complex object limitations. One soft limit, which is measured by the thermo, and the other being an absolute hard limit which there's no way to exceed.

However, the hard limit would seem to be about 25% higher than the soft limit, so you can still squeeze a few extra vertices out of the system using this method. The refresh rate does tend to struggle when there's a lot of complex objects in one place, but it does that without using this cheat, so I don't think you're going to break anything by using it.

I found that that you could cut out the objects (using another material and pressing triangle) that you have emitted. You coul duse this to really demolish the thermo quickly by cutting each of the squares into complex shapes. I'd guess (didn't think to try) that once you reach the point that it won't let you place any more objects it will stop you from cutting.

Pretty much the method I used. I thought it would be the quickest way to add vertices to the emitted objects.

At that point you could try emitting a nearly full thermo full of other complex shapes into the level. It should let you do that and you may have double the complex shapes thermo allowance.

Perhaps, but you're playing with fire at this point. When you reach the point where you've hit the hard limit, your level is going to pretty much uneditable, which isn't much use from a practical POV.

[rtm223]

Then I tried again by emitting 400 squares of DM, and cutting a sackboy shape out of each one. The thermo didn't go up at all while I was doing this, but after the 369th sackboy, it wouldn't let me cut any more, and I got the complex objects warning, even though the thermo was still only at 1.5 notches (of 16).

The implication here is that there might actually be two complex object limitations. One soft limit, which is measured by the thermo, and the other being an absolute hard limit which there's no way to exceed.

Hmmm, was the warning you got "this object is too complicated, you cannot add any more to it", or was it "your level has over heated, try using less complicated shapes". Also, when you say, there is no way to exceed it, did you attempt corner editing the original emitted objects, or emitting objects into the level, because I found both of these methods were possible beyond the point where it stops you adding directly into the level.