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  1. #1

    Post Theck & Thack Sublayer Guide

    Theck & Thack Sublayer Guide


    "Theck" and "Thack" layers are glitched sublayers of the regular thick layer. One piece of theck and one piece of thack can exist inside the same thick layer at once. The way they interact in the game makes them very useful tools to have in certain situations.

    LBP2 EDIT: Theck/Thack layers can no longer be created in LBP2, but existing pieces still retain most of their properties. You can pick them up in Garden of Goodies V6. [lbp.me link]

    Theck & Thack Layers


    Essentially, the theck and thack layers are glitched materials that are the two different sections of a thick layer divided in half. Their names were given by the LBP community.

    Theck layers are checkpoint-thick.

    Thack layers are sackboy-thick. Two other thack examples are golf balls and point bubbles.



    This is the wooden theck layer being compared to the checkpoint, and the cardboard thack layer being compared to the point bubble.


    In this example, you can see that MM gives us two objects that behave like theck and thack materials. They are equal in visible thickness too. You can place both of them on top of each other, but they only interfere with their one thick layer. Checkpoints and point bubbles share almost all the same properties that theck and thack materials have.


    From left to right: thack, theck, thick, and thin. Theck layers may seem to have the same visual thickness as thin layers, but they are slightly thicker.


    Here is a picture showing overlapping theck, thack, and thin layers. Here, theck is wood, thack is cardboard, and thin is dissolve.

    General Information: Theck/Thack Materials:

    Information:
    • These are also called the ooblyflip and weejameedo layers, as thought of by rtm223.
    • These are layers that appear naturally in MM objects, but not in material form. It is not a glitch that has been known to ever cause negative side-affects.
    • The main way to make them was patched, but a new way to recreate them will be described later in this guide.
    • They are most often used to conserve layers, because bolting them together uses less layers than with regular thick and thin.
    • Theck materials are generally more useful than thack.
    • When emmited into bakscratch's extra layer glitch, they sometimes pop back into the normal layer area.
    • They have the same weight as a thick layer of the same dimensions.
    • You can cut out of a theck or thack layer with a thick layer.
    • You cannot overlap theck or thack materials with the grid turned on. You cannot layer-shift them into the same thick layer space. You cannot copy and then place a theck layer behind a thack layer in the same thick layer space, or copy and then place a thack layer in front of a theck layer in the same thick layer space, without one cutting out of the other. The only cursor-related way to overlap them in the same thick layer space is with the grid turned off.
    • For precise, grid-aligned layer overlapping, you can press theck and thack layers against previously grid-aligned theck and thack layers, or you can use a stiff piston.


    Theck Materials:

    Generally, theck materials are used for decorations. Sackpeople can walk in front of theck materials, unlike with thack materials.

    • As a grabbable material, Theck is grabbable from the edges, but your sackboy can move inside the theck area while still grabbing an outer edge.
    • Theck is useful as a barrier to stop thick layer objects but not sackpeople.
    • Theck materials can be used to stop layer-shifting if it is between the sackperson and the layer he could normally layer-shift into.


    Thack Materials:

    These are generally used to conserve layers in conjunction with theck layers. Thack layers can collide with sackpeople, unlike theck layers.

    • As a grabbable material, thack is grabbable from the edges like a grabbable thick material.
    • Thack is useful as a way to cover up checkpoints. When sackboy spawns from a glued thack piece in front of a checkpoint, he will pop out of the thack area. When the thack piece is unglued, it will pop away from sackboy, unless it is heavier than sackboy.
    • Thack projectiles can pass in front of checkpoints and still hit sackpeople.



    How To Recreate Theck & Thack Layers


    To recreate theck and thack layers, press "x" in different ways while you organize the layer formation of a material shape. It only works with certain materials, like polyesterene, but you can change the material after making your theck or thack sample. This method may take many tries for people with slow fingers. It also works best when you're alone, because online create can add lag to the situation. Sometimes, an instable material that is not definitively theck, thack, thick, or thin will pop into a thick or thin material when you select and edit it.

    To recreate theck, copy a thick square. Press x as you press L2. The idea to this is that it catches the material at slightly more than the midpoint between thick and thin, creating theck.

    To recreate thack, copy a thin square. Press x as you press L1. The idea to this is that it catches the material at slightly less than the midpoint between thick and thin, creating thack.

    Aya042 also has theck and thack layers as editable prizes in his Garden of Goodies V5 level.

    Practical Uses For Theck & Thack Layers


    The main uses of theck and thack materials stem from their ability to conserves layers. Information will be added with enough interest.


    The "Thock" Layer


    The thock layer is the final part of this guide because it has only recently been discovered on an MM object, and no one knows how to recreate it in material form. Its name stems from Aya42, who named it thock to drive rtm223 crazy. It appears on The Incredibles Kit's Monorail Pod Top object. It was discovered four days before the making of this thread. Nobody knows if it is possible to recreate it in material form or if it would have exclusively new features that theck or thack materials don't have.

    It has been speculated before that there might have been another sub-layer. If you overlap 4 thin layers, 3 theck layers, and 3 thack layers, there are subtle gaps between the thack and thin layers. This is where the thock layer could fit in in material form. It is roughly the same width, visually, as theck.

    There is more speculative and extensiveness on the subject in sevhen's Observations On The Incredible's Pod and a Newly Confirmed Sub-Layer thread.


    ThecX-Men


    Some profiles are infected with a glitch that Gilgamesh coined as ThecX-Men. It is uncommon, but three examples of LBPC members that came forth to say they had it are KernelM, yarudark, and myself.

    • We are killed by theck gas instantly, and because theck gas is soundless and invisible, we may not know why we've died.
    • We can layer-shift through theck material and start gates/checkpoints from the back, but not from the front.
    • ---Thin gas behind theck material can stop this, and we aren't affected by thin gas in any abnormal ways.
    • ---We can spawn from a (theck) checkpoint or start gate into the layer behind it, rendering some levels unplayable or cheatable, meaning this is a harmful glitch.
    • ---We can't pass through the theck parts of objects like the Incredibles Monorail Pod Top.
    • Theck material can't be placed or smeared behind us in create mode, but it can be emmited behind us normally.
    • We seem to stand back farther in our thick layer than other sackpeople.
    • It doesn't go away if we restart LBP or the PS3, and I've had it for as long as I can remember, so it may be permanently linked to a profile.



    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Please comment on any notes, questions, complaints, compliments, insults, ideas, or additions.
    Last edited by Incinerator22; 01-28-2011 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Major Update: 7/12/2010


  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Incinerator22 View Post
    Theck and thack layers used to be a little-known glitch that was used mostly for gimmicks, but only recently have creators been using them to their full potential in countless ways.
    That's not true. I've been using them in countless ways (most especially for extra weight, or for extra moving parts) ever since they were first discovered. Though, I suppose they haven't been widely used since the old method for creating them was patched, and those few of us who had pre-patch samples weren't able to share them with others without going through considerable hassle.

    Were you going to explain how to make them? It's nice to know what you can do with them, but without information on how to get them. Also, you might want to share a few more examples of their uses, such as double bolting wheels and stuff. I'll leave the explaining to you, but if anybody wants to just pick up some fully editable samples, they're given in my glitched material's level.

    Psn: Sehven
    Level: Glitched Material Collection ....(there's no prizes, just copy the level to your moon and capture anything you need).

  3. Thanks!


  4. #3
    Sackperson Demagogue Incinerator22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehven View Post
    Were you going to explain how to make them?
    I added a section on recreating theck and thack that I actually referenced earlier in the guide, but forgot to add. Thanks for semi-reminding me.

    I do want to add examples of their uses, like double-bolted wheels for bidirectional speed, but I don't know a lot of those. Any ideas?

  5. #4

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    I've seen these before but have never really given them much thought. Been messing around with them today and they do seem really useful. I think they will really help in creating characters. I also like how easy they are to create, managed to create a theck layer object my first try...kinda shocking really.

    I was hoping that this would allow me to create the thin/invisible gas I've heard about but can't seem to find out how to create or where to get...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fullofwin View Post
    I was hoping that this would allow me to create the thin/invisible gas I've heard about but can't seem to find out how to create or where to get...
    Way of creating it is patched (includes killing creature brains), but you can get it from my "Premium collection of Glithes" (copy it).
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAffected View Post
    IT WAS THE BEST SALMON FLAVORED CHICKEN EVER!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by chinook3 View Post
    OMG!!!!! ITS GOING TO EXPLODE!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! *gush*pow*

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  8. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Incinerator22 View Post
    I do want to add examples of their uses, like double-bolted wheels for bidirectional speed, but I don't know a lot of those. Any ideas?
    Pretty much anything that requires two layers can be condensed to one layer using theck and thack. Double bolting is the most obvious example (as we've already mentioned). Another example is in my newest mech's feet: you can't see them, but there's half-moon shaped pieces that form the part of the foot that actually connect to the rest of the mech. Those are theck. Then the main part of the foot is thack and is semi-loosely bolted to the theck part, so they can pivot. If I had used thin layer pieces, they wouldn't have been strong enough to keep from breaking, but making them from theck material made them work perfectly (way better than any mech's feet I've designed so far). As it currently is, the feet have never broken in all my testing (well parts have, but never either of those two main parts).

    I've also used theck and thack in logic networks so that I could have pieces move past each other but keep it down to one layer (it's not always necessary to compress logic, and in many cases it may actually adversely affect the game by adding lag, but in some cases, you just want to keep things a bit tighter).

    And Delma's thin gas is the one I use. I use it ALL the time, from making invisible logic, to tilt sensors, to invisible walls to keep sackboy from going where he's not supposed to, and making a sticker shield to keep people from stealing stickers! But that's kind of off topic.

  9. #7

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    It is stupid that such amazing tutorials get so little atention!
    Not much I can add, besides a THANKS! button.
    I already knew most of this -partiallly thanks to you, haha..!- but I still discovered new things.
    Once again, thanks for the tutorial, this is such a great resource
    My F4F level: Lafarge's Request (Spotlighted and also MM PICK!!)

  10. #8

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    Regarding thock, it exists in pretty much any of the mesh objects that sackboy can fit inside. That includes the mug from the potc pack (was there a barrel too, or just the mug? I can't remember for sure) and the teacup object from.... where ever it was from: I think it just came from one of the non-dlc levels, but I don't care enough to look into it. I haven't tried with the mug, but I managed to smash the theck and thock parts of the tea cup so that sackboy could enter from behind and exit through the front via layer change. I dunno if there's any other objects with it: I haven't really cared enough to look, since none of them would help in creating it.

    If there were an object where you could smash the theck and thack parts, leaving only the thock part, then it might be possible to do a rollback and use the old method for making theck and thack to make a thock material. Unfortunately, every object I've tried it on disappears entirely when the thack portion is destroyed.

  11. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keldur View Post
    It is stupid that such amazing tutorials get so little atention!
    Not much I can add, besides a THANKS! button.
    As can I, but I've also added it to the Tutorial Spotlight.

  12. #10

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    ok i get all of that...but when I recreate the glitch (either 1) and I select the material with the pop-it cursor or the corner-editor the material goes straight back to its normal form. How do I stop this? Also now I see how people put things into the hover and beyond layers now I will be using that lol. Oh yea if you emit the theck layer in the front thin-like layer and you walk directly behind it your sackboy ducks like hes in a vent.
    Last edited by L1GhTmArE; 05-22-2010 at 03:21 PM.

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  14. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by L1GhTmArE View Post
    ok i get all of that...but when I recreate the glitch (either 1) and I select the material with the pop-it cursor or the corner-editor the material goes straight back to its normal form. How do I stop this?
    I wrote somewhere that when this happens, you haven't done it at the right instant, and need to try again. But if your fingers are fast enough to still get it like that, then you're close.

    Also now I see how people put things into the hover and beyond layers now I will be using that lol.
    I'm not sure whether you know this or not, but that's the 50-Layer Glitch/Extra Layer Glitch/3D Layer Glitch. It's something completely different.

    Oh yea if you emit the theck layer in the front thin-like layer and you walk directly behind it your sackboy ducks like hes in a vent.
    Thin-like layer? Please be more specific. That's interesting though.

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    Wait so if I understand correctly, theck layer objects weigh the same as thick layer objects and are more structurally resistant than thin layer objects? I think I might just start incorporating them into my designs more often now, but it's a little annoying that they can't be overlapped in grid mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgamesh View Post
    theck layer objects weigh the same as thick layer objects
    Yes.

    and are more structurally resistant than thin layer objects?
    What do you mean? Do you mean their strength/resistance to breaking under force? I think its assumable that the gameplay engine completely treats them like regular thick layers, physics-wise.

    I think I might just start incorporating them into my designs more often now
    Glad I made a difference!

  17. #14

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    Incinerator22
    I wrote somewhere that when this happens, you haven't done it at the right instant, and need to try again. But if your fingers are fast enough to still get it like that, then you're close.
    Yea I see now! I got it to work for the theck layer. Also when i recreate it, its not smearable like the one I had before I read this tutorial...why is that?

    I'm not sure whether you know this or not, but that's the 50-Layer Glitch/Extra Layer Glitch/3D Layer Glitch. It's something completely different.
    Lol yes I know. I use those all the time. I was just saying now I kinda see how the 3d layer glitch could have been discovered.

    Thin-like layer? Please be more specific. That's interesting though.
    Yea I tried to cheat the system (LOL) and emit the fail theck layer with an infinite life emitter hoping it would make it stable. It had emitted to the front layer (probably the hover layer) and when I walked behind it it made sackboy duck like a person in a vent but when you jump he stands straight up. Then when he hits the ground he ducks again. Thought it was funny
    Last edited by L1GhTmArE; 05-23-2010 at 04:58 AM.

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  19. #15

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    Just thought you guys might be interested to know that using this glitch, kind of, I have managed to separate out a total of fourteen thin layers on the normal field.

    4 of which are the normal ones, 10 others "hidden" between them.

    Its actually really simple to find them, just make a block of thin material on the fartherst back layer, I find wood works the best, then duplicate it and spam x and R1/R2, making copies of it very fast as you move the block between the layers. You should end up with 3 layers at the front, 3 at the back, and then two chunks of 4 layers in between, for a total of 16.

    There will be a large gap between each of the 4 chunks, so it looks like this:

    back ->||| |||| |||| ||| <-front

    It turns out, if you do the same thing with checkpoints to create the checkpoints that are in between the check point layers (theres 7 layers of checkpoint thickness) the created checkpoints actually fit right snug into the gaps, creating a complete fill of psuedo thin layers front to back.

    Sadly some of the layers of these thins will fall right through everything and break, and if you try copying them they just revert back to original layer points.

    The trick to moving them seems to be gluing dark matter to them and then moving the dark matter, then deleting it once the piece is in position.

    Now, what you may find VERY useful with this trick is using another thin object, specifically a certain round light that is normally annoyingly on the thin layer (LED light), and using the trick to move it a bit farther forward so it can be in the thick layers.

    You can then glue it to the front of thin material instead of inside, very useful for when you're using an edged material and want to avoid the sometimes annoying ring of edging that appears around the LED light.

    Just thought, you know, you might find it interesting, not like this opens up tonnes of possibilities in level making or anything


  20. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by L1GhTmArE View Post
    Yea I tried to cheat the system (LOL) and emit the fail theck layer with an infinite life emitter hoping it would make it stable. It had emitted to the front layer (probably the hover layer) and when I walked behind it it made sackboy duck like a person in a vent but when you jump he stands straight up. Then when he hits the ground he ducks again. Thought it was funny
    It might not have worked, but still, clever idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by lionhart180 View Post
    Just thought, you know, you might find it interesting, not like this opens up tonnes of possibilities in level making or anything
    Are you being sarcastic? Sorry if that question comes off as rude, but I'm not sure. It's a useful technique, but it's unstable, because they pop back to the frontmost closest thin layer as soon as you select or try to edit them (but you must know this.) The best use for it that several LBPC members have discussed is with bolting thin gas and a thin layer together in the same thin layer space.

    BTW, talking about thin gas, another glitch, would get this way too off-topic

  21. #17

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    Mmmm, not quite. some thinner objects, namely the LED light, will stay stable, allowing you to place them in ways you normally couldn't have :3

    Anyways here's a pic of all the layer's we've found so far:



    I was onyl able to get out 13 of the 14 layers but Im sure you can see em clear enough.

    Middle row is the normal layers, and the bottom is the rest, Im not sure what you guys meant about the thock layer of space between the other two layers, the thack and than layers lined up pretty close to me, with a thin layer between a pair of thack/than and another.

    @_@;

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  23. #18

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    I didn't realize you could layer pop and led and it would stay stable. That's pretty cool. But yeah, layer popping (that's my name for it: dunno' what everybody else calls it) has been around since just before the 50 layer glitch was first discovered. In fact, I didn't know about the 50 layer glitch for a long time because every time I saw a thread about it, I thought they were just talking about layer popping and I didn't bother reading it.

    I was able to layer pop some thin layer material into the thock layer space, but as Cin said, it wasn't stable. As soon as I would select it or anything, it would pop back into a normal layer. I did find a practical use for layer popping, though. I used it to disjoint the doll arm objects so that the forearms would appear to be in a layer slightly in front of the upper arms. I mentioned that trick toward the end of my sourceless lights etc. tut.

  24. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehven View Post
    I did find a practical use for layer popping, though.
    Also, thin material and thin gas in the same layer, bolted together.

  25. #20
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    I can't see the pictures. Anyone else have this problem?

    I enjoyed this guide, but could you include some examples of the layers in action? Some pictures of what people have used them for would be helpful, I still don't get the point of theck and thack.

    Last edited by Blackfalcon; 07-04-2010 at 03:49 PM.
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