Resonance [Name TBC] - ON HOLD (oh teh noes)

[standby250]

Well I played it and no problems there. The last puzzle was trickier than I remembered - but Oh well, I did it in the end. Still in love with those checkpoints, and the failure system seemed to work well.

Found your secret area . Very, very sneaky!

[rtm223]

Wh-Why!?

I'm not at home. I am now back home, but I'm going away again at the weekend, darn my complex social life not letting me stay in to play computer games

I had a run through with comphy yesterday.
The level, though clearly distant from finishing, is awesome.
I got a bit puzzled at the final puzzle.
The thing that I found annoying is that the player has no idea of the door's behaviour until he tries to open them.
Maybe some leds, I don't know...

I assume you mean that there is no indication that the wrong colour crystal can be used in the third puzzle. This is one of the key things I have to teach the player and this puzzle is intended to do just that. It does require a little bit of trial and error, but technically, there is no other action you can possibly take. Hopefully it won't take people too long to realise they should try that and when they do, I'd hope the mechanism is understood for the later puzzles.

Well I played it and no problems there. The last puzzle was trickier than I remembered - but Oh well, I did it in the end. Still in love with those checkpoints, and the failure system seemed to work well.

Apparently not in multiplay - I got a PSN message from comphy saying that the group respawn failed to work properly for him and omegaslayer. ATM I think it's a network lag thing, but I don't know for sure. I can possibly get the mechanism more reliable but IDK...

Anyone got a really laggy connection so I can see how often this happens??

[R0GUE--Elite]

I've commented on the level in LBP but I thought i might as well tell you here. first of all I would just like to say this level is amazing aesthetically and gameplay wise. But I don't know if I'm doing the last puzzle correctly . Once I get the cube, I place it under the left green door so that only the very edge of the cube is under the door. This allows me to drag the crystal into the section between the two green doors. Then, using every ounce of strength left in my sackboys body, I pull the cube out from under the door and use it to hold open the second green door. You can bring both of the crystals through and your done!

Now, I find it hard to believe that RTM the perfectionist would make the player delicately place the edge of a cube under a door then make them pull on it hammering X to pull it free again after dragging the crystal through. But I have no idea how its supposed to be done!

Maybe you should have an emitter on the cube which spawns a small piece of DM in the cube constantly (or use some fancy demitting logic) when the tip of the door comes in range. This way, the cube will be impossible to move when it is incontact with the door. But then you'll hear the sound of the DM disappearing ... I'm sure you can come up with something better.

[rtm223]

OK, little thought experiment for you:

A green crystal can spawn a green cube.
A blue crystal can spawn a blue cube.
How many cubes can you spawn if you have both a blue and a green crystal?


I'm aware of the door thing. It's mildly annoying but I think for the most part I'm going to have to leave it in. Having a system to block the cube from moving is a possibility, but it comes with so many complications I don't think it's going to be feasible. I can possibly tweak the connectors to make it harder to remove the cube, but I think they are already pretty much as strong as they can be without crushing the objects below All I can do is possibly make it slightly harder to pull the cube out, I don't think I can make it impossible....

[Aya042]

A green crystal can spawn a green cube.
A blue crystal can spawn a blue cube.

I think the point is that the cube-spawning 'machine' can be ambiguous and/or counter-intuitive. The color-coding on the spawning device is easily interpreted as "any colored crystal will spawn a cube", rather than "each color crystal spawns a different colored cube". In fact that's how I originally interpreted it, and it's now clear I'm not the only one.

Similarly, I also found the crystal slots to be counter-intuitive. I suspect most people would think "a red crystal activates a red slot, and green for green, etc." - the idea that a red crystal half-activates a green slot is not something that's going to be obvious - it's something which is only going to be solved by trial and error.

I'm not sure whether this is intentional or not, but I think it will cause a lot of players to give up quite early on in the level.

[rtm223]

I think the point is that the cube-spawning 'machine' can be ambiguous and/or counter-intuitive. The color-coding on the spawning device is easily interpreted as "any colored crystal will spawn a cube", rather than "each color crystal spawns a different colored cube". In fact that's how I originally interpreted it, and it's now clear I'm not the only one. Similarly, I also found the crystal slots to be counter-intuitive. I suspect most people would think "a red crystal activates a red slot, and green for green, etc." - the idea that a red crystal half-activates a green slot is not something that's going to be obvious - it's something which is only going to be solved by trial and error.

That is true, but a little bit of trial and error is entirely what the first few puzzles are about. After puzzle three you pretty much have all the trial and error done with (you have to work out what happens with a half powered lift in puzzle 4 but that's more remembering the wrong coloured slot thing and then observing what happens). Also, the deal with the wrong colour crystals... I do put you in a room where the only thing you can possibly do, is put the wrong colour crystal in the slot, it's that or do nothing.

The cube dispenser is a slightly different issue, as you aren't directly forced to put the second crystal in there. IDK, I would have thought the combinations of numerous clues re the cubes would have been enough to get people to the solution with a bit of lateral thinking and experimentation. Admittedly, I do have the issue that rogue-elite got to the wrong solution, through a little bit of lateral thinking lol.

I don't think the crystals need much more explanation. If someone quits because I put them in a room with one available action (albeit a counterintuitive one) and they don't "get" it, then they'll quit out before the end of the level anyway, I can guarantee it. Cubes might need a rethink on how the 2 cubes issue is introduced...


I suppose I could add in a cheeky conditional clue - if the player gets through that puzzle without spawning both types of cube add a "well why didn't I think of that" kinda message. It would go against the aims of no text, but could be easily added.

[R0GUE--Elite]

Yeah, thats a good idea. If the player finds a shneaky way around a puzzle, something happens to indicate to the player that the creator/level/AI knows about this shneaky behaviour. Maybe even punishing them somehow in the next puzzle room. I don't know if it would be to harsh to kill the player if they cheat (like, a warning siren sounds and a short message like;"I gave you a chance to earn your freedom, but you broke the rules. No cake for you", then gas starts flooding in through vents in the room).
The only other solution I can think of to stop my cheat from working would be to sharpen the corners and not have that 45degree slant. although this would make 'em look ugly so don't do that .

[Aya042]

Also, the deal with the wrong colour crystals... I do put you in a room where the only thing you can possibly do, is put the wrong colour crystal in the slot, it's that or do nothing.

I just replayed the level, and I now remember why I thought the "crystals half-operating slots of different colors" to be a potential issue.

When you get to puzzle #3, you have an accessible red crystal, red slot and green slot, and an inaccessible green crystal and green slot. So I initially thought, "well clearly a red crystal ain't gonna work in a green slot, so you have to somehow get the green crystal from the previous puzzle here to open that door". Then when I figured there was no way to make the lift operate without the crystal in it, I then started backtracking to puzzle #1 to see if there was a crystal there I could bring forward to the later puzzles. It was only after wasting all that time, that I thought, "well, the only possible thing left to try is the crystal in the wrong colored slot".

The ambiguity also stems from whether the player interprets each of the three puzzles as separate challenges distinct from the each other (i.e. the crystals are not meant to be moved between the puzzles), or whether the whole lot is one big puzzle where you might think you have to move crystals between the puzzles to solve them.

I think puzzle #3 could work better if you simply swapped the starting positions of the two crystals. It adds a couple of extra steps to the solution, but the visual feedback of the first door half-opening as soon as you approach it makes it very obvious that crystals half-operate slots of the wrong color.

The cube dispenser is a slightly different issue, as you aren't directly forced to put the second crystal in there. IDK, I would have thought the combinations of numerous clues re the cubes would have been enough to get people to the solution with a bit of lateral thinking and experimentation. Admittedly, I do have the issue that rogue-elite got to the wrong solution, through a little bit of lateral thinking lol.

That's a bit more tricky, and arguably more pervasive since many of the comments on this thread so far have mentioned the idea of trying to block a door with a cube then yanking it out the other side.

It's certain ambiguous, but the only reason I said it was "counter-intuititive" was from playing comph's levels which have cube spawners, and you kinda get used to the idea that each spawner only spawns one cube, so you can blame him (as usual).

If there's a simple way to reinforce the idea that crystal color determines block color, that might suffice. Possibly even just changing the first puzzle color from blue to red. Sounds strange, but the first two puzzles use blue and green respectively, which look similar enough that I didn't even notice that the color was different between the first two puzzles, or indeed that the block color matched the crystal color. It was only after spawning the red cube that I noticed the colors matched.

Edit: Just after I posted that, my controller switched off, and when I turned it back on again, I spawned from an off-screen checkpoint on top of the level. That might be another thing you need to look at.

[rtm223]

When you get to puzzle #3, you have an accessible red crystal, red slot and green slot, and an inaccessible green crystal and green slot. So I initially thought, "well clearly a red crystal ain't gonna work in a green slot, so you have to somehow get the green crystal from the previous puzzle here to open that door". Then when I figured there was no way to make the lift operate without the crystal in it, I then started backtracking to puzzle #1 to see if there was a crystal there I could bring forward to the later puzzles. It was only after wasting all that time, that I thought, "well, the only possible thing left to try is the crystal in the wrong colored slot".

You can't backtrack to puzzle 1. And I'm pretty sure I can prevent backtracking between all the puzzles without too much hassle - I kinda intended this to be the case anyways. It's just that the example puzzle is incomplete.

I think puzzle #3 could work better if you simply swapped the starting positions of the two crystals. It adds a couple of extra steps to the solution, but the visual feedback of the first door half-opening as soon as you approach it makes it very obvious that crystals half-operate slots of the wrong color.

I'd rather no do that TBH, I think if they are placed in a more confined area when they reach that puzzle, so there is no way they could go anywhere else then forcing them to focus on the

If there's a simple way to reinforce the idea that crystal color determines block color, that might suffice. Possibly even just changing the first puzzle color from blue to red. Sounds strange, but the first two puzzles use blue and green respectively, which look similar enough that I didn't even notice that the color was different between the first two puzzles, or indeed that the block color matched the crystal color. It was only after spawning the red cube that I noticed the colors matched.

Nah this sounds fine, I was only avoiding the red because it's a less pleasant hue and I still haven't got it right lol.

Edit: Just after I posted that, my controller switched off, and when I turned it back on again, I spawned from an off-screen checkpoint on top of the level. That might be another thing you need to look at.

Turns out this is an issue with proximity switches in general. Apparently, a controller turning off doesn't qualify as a sackperson not being there. Obviously Looks like there is even more issue with forced group respawn. Gah, I really wonder if this is worth it sometimes

[R0GUE--Elite]

For the issue with the player not knowing that different crystals spawn corresponding colours cubes, you could use a trail of lights that are the same colour as the crystal in the socket leading up to the dispenser. There could also be spotlight (of the same colour) shining out of the tube where the cube comes from linked to a speed output mag switch with the key on a flipper piston (you know what I mean..) so it fades out again. this would blatantly indicate to the player that the crystal colour has an effect on the cube colour.

[comphermc]

For the issue with the player not knowing that different crystals spawn corresponding colours cubes, you could use a trail of lights that are the same colour as the crystal in the socket leading up to the dispenser. There could also be spotlight (of the same colour) shining out of the tube where the cube comes from linked to a speed output mag switch with the key on a flipper piston (you know what I mean..) so it fades out again. this would blatantly indicate to the player that the crystal colour has an effect on the cube colour.

He hasn't got a spotlight, but he does have leds that light up accordindly.

On the topic of cube color confusion. I didn't find it that bad when I played the level initially however many months ago (and that was without the primer levels), but you may have described it to me before-hand. I do like the idea of approaching the puzzle with the crystal in the wrong slot to illustrate a point. It's very "psychological testing"-style in my mind... whatever that means.

[rtm223]

There already is lighting changes to indicate that the crystal colour is related to the cube colour. As you place the crystal in the backplate symbol lights up in the appropriate colour. When you spawn the cube, the R1 panel lights up that colour (mostly because the cube being dispensed is that colour too. I don't think any colour coded cues are going to help as they clearly aren't going to twig until you've actually put a second crystal in the dispenser.

In fact even aya's make them spawn a red cube before hand will probably hardly help at all. On the third puzzle, the most likely colour you will spawn first is red, unless you are faffing around a bit. I can change one of the previous puzzles to make it red, but I honestly don't think there is any way to indicate to people in advance without explicitly stating: "put two different colour crystals in the hole. Do it. Now!"


I could do the crystal in the wrong hole thing. It's not going to make me happy though, I must say.

[Aya042]

I'd rather no do that TBH, I think if they are placed in a more confined area when they reach that puzzle, so there is no way they could go anywhere else then forcing them to focus on the

...?

Well, this is definately the less significant of the two issues. I just thought the idea of having one of the early puzzles start with a crystal in the wrong colored slot would provide extra clarity to something that is very counter-intuitive for LBP, after all, the whole mag key/switch paradigm is based on the simple premise of matching colors.

Nah this sounds fine, I was only avoiding the red because it's a less pleasant hue and I still haven't got it right lol.

I thought the red was quite striking actually.

I figured it was a minor change which might help, although there are some more radical approaches, but these would probably be a complete pain to change at this stage in development.

Turns out this is an issue with proximity switches in general. Apparently, a controller turning off doesn't qualify as a sackperson not being there. Obviously Looks like there is even more issue with forced group respawn. Gah, I really wonder if this is worth it sometimes

Harsh. Well. I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's a pretty unlikely occurrence, although it did give me a chance to look at some of the other parts of the level.

There already is lighting changes to indicate that the crystal colour is related to the cube colour. As you place the crystal in the backplate symbol lights up in the appropriate colour. When you spawn the cube, the R1 panel lights up that colour (mostly because the cube being dispensed is that colour too.

Right, but I didn't notice that till you mentioned it.

In fact even aya's make them spawn a red cube before hand will probably hardly help at all. On the third puzzle, the most likely colour you will spawn first is red, unless you are faffing around a bit.

Really?

Once I figured out that the wrong crystal only opens halfway, then I realised I'd have to put the red key back in the first hole to be able to get a block past the first door, so I spawned a green one first. Indeed, if you spawn a red one first, you have to go back and faff about to get the thing past the first door.

I can change one of the previous puzzles to make it red, but I honestly don't think there is any way to indicate to people in advance without explicitly stating: "put two different colour crystals in the hole. Do it. Now!"

Yeah. It's a very minor thing, but bear in mind you haven't picked red/green/blue, you've picked red/green/cyan, and cyan contains as much green as it does blue, so it's almost like picking red/green/green, from the POV of the retina anyway.

[rtm223]

OK, after going fo a run I have thought up a plan of action:

1. Ensure every puzzle is separated from the previous (probs by some platforming of some kind)
2. Modify puzzle 1/2 to be red, to emphasise the multiple cube colours
3. Modify puzzle 3 so that it only requires a single cube
4. Modify puzzle 3 so that the crystal is in the wrong hole to begin with
5. Add in puzzle 4, which requires no trial and error and does not require a second cube, merely introduces half power elevators
6. Design a puzzle for puzzle 5 that will require the player to use two cubes - cannot be cheated.
7. Then add in the tricky puzzles.

Thoughts?

This is a far slower progression than I had wanted TBH, but looking at the responses it still might not be enough and I might be forced to resurect my antagonist (which will basically make this into a portal-esque scenario, even more so that it already is).

[comphermc]

You know that my vote goes for steep progression. I guess it depends on what you are going for? Who is your audience?

[Rogar]

I agree. Make it the way you want it to be, use our feedback as it suits you. There must have been playtesters who thought Subterranean Setbacks was hell to complete, but did that stop you?

[rtm223]

I don't think this is an issue of making the level easier, or worrying about the audience. It's important that the early puzzle teach the concepts that I need them to teach to the players. In that respect, I don't think I'm currently getting it right. The plan is in motion though and I don't think I'll have to sacrifice anything important to improve it

Wanted to do lots of work this weekend, but it's been scorching hot, so I didn't spend too much time inside on the PS3