Wisconsin

[Voltergeist]

First off, thanks for making an intelligent post. I gain a little bit of faith in humanity every time I see someone on the other side of the aisle writing something without baseless insults. Reminds me that for every... well... you know who, there are people who can still debate in adult manner. Props.

Because I'm trying to get something of value accomplished today, I'm just going to respond to each your paragraphs in numbered form. Hope this is okay.

1 and 2. This is, unfortunately, an ideal solution. There are far too many places where unions simply won't budge, and in my opinion, deserve no seat at the table for refusing to do so. Have things really gotten to sensible debate in NJ? Last I looked into it, there was only the left crying over how evil Christie is. If he's managing to get things done in that condition, then I have even more respect for him. I support such a "scared method of debate" because based on my view of the situation (that union rules are mostly bad), I find it quicker to toss the whole thing out and put something new in place. This is what I believe should be done with HCR, toss the whole thing out now, before it can harm the country, and worry about salvaging the few good parts later. I obviously disagree with you that there are falsehoods being thrown around - my falsehoods tend to be your fact and vice versa.

3. This term swap annoys me. This is like in an abortion debate, when I say I'm for abortion only if the woman's life is endangered, and I always get "Lololol why is her life more important then?" followed up with "what a terrible sexist person". Children. >.> Back on topic, this has nothing to do with humanity and everything to do with the chance for corruption. If the government is involved, I don't want unions. Maybe such dramatic stories never happened, but the days of union bosses hampering companies when they can't get their way is very real and continues to this day.

4. Not much I can say to these except that the free market could have done them a lot better, especially minimum wage. Allow me to take you into Conservative Free Market World a sec:
Free Market World Boss: Well, times are tough. If you take this job, we can only pay you $5.50 an hour right now.
Free Market World Potential Employee: Well, it's not great, but I'll take it. It's better than nothing, right?
Free Market World Narrator: And so the employee took the job. Now, I hear you say, "Well what if they're lying? What if those greedy jerks just want to hold on to more money?" Well, in Conservative Free Market World, he can always take another job, by another employer. And the companies are forced to keep their wages competitive - not because the government makes them, but because they'll lose their workforce if they don't! Hope you enjoyed your visit to Free Market World!

5. I'm far from misinformed. I spend a large amount of time digesting information from various sources, from Beck to Maddow and everything in between. I simply have found that what Beck et all have been saying holds more merit. The internet alone is not a good source, but if you know where to look and how to balance it with other formats, then it's very helpful in educating yourself. Besides... do you really expect to find unbiased information about teacher's unions in a classroom?

6. Dunno what you mean about the comic, I think you might have seen the other one I accidentally posted before the one displayed now.

7. +1 to the trolling Democrat... though again, is politics the place for trolling? Either way, found it funny.

Phew. Well, that's all I've got in me. Feel free to reply to this, but I think I'm done with this thread. Thanks again for proving that not all of you dirty commies are morons.

[KoingWolf]

...

I'm just hoping the mods take note and see that maybe.. just maybe.. we can get a General Political thread. I've asked for it a couple times and can see why they don't want the headache of one, but there are enough calm, collected, politically charged people that the thread wouldn't devolve. At least in theory. I don't know though, maybe we'd all eat each other if left alone for awhile?
Anyway, back on point, and I liked the number thing so I'll try to keep up and reply in order.

(1-2) Ok, so you say unions won't budge on issues, but exactly what unions and where are they not budging? Because that's not an argument you can make out of just common knowledge. All unions are not a pain to deal with, they're just looking out for the people that support them, the workers. So when place X says it's going to cut pensions, because X messed up, then of course it's going to cause friction. You couldn't balance your budget properly, over spent, and got screwed over when your bubble burst, and now you're taking it out on the Union? No dice.
Then you must consider the actual facts of the matter. Not disputable is that unions only make up something like 10% of the work force, not nearly enough for these states to claim they are a major problem in the budget.

So you're left with this "tightening the belt" bull that has no substance whatsoever. Even Obama's budget is a joke, another attempt at being this centrist person just begging for Republican's to like him. I want my angry black man back ******! The one from the campaign trail, and I almost want my progressive vote back, but then I have to stop and consider the options available. So I'm forced to just.. hold out more "hope" and "change."
Anyway, so you have a financial crisis entirely because of Wall Street (which, I should mention, got off completely free and got to keep all of the money they made, with extra) suddenly means that the poor have to suffer cuts to WIC, public areas, and, to bringing it back to NJ, cuts to the Police department of Camden, worst city in America years running? Unacceptable to me and these "cuts" along with Christie's COMPLETE 180 degree turn on educational funding is why me and many others see him as "evil" or, more realistically "fat, angry, idiot."

On point though, the debate here is extremely sensible when it comes to tenure, the new system to replace it is very acceptable and will probably pass. While the police situation was not about unions, it was a terrible, senseless way of dealing with an issue relating to the poor. Unions were trying to get police equipped properly and everyone in the city was in agreement with them, but Christie decided to pull the plug entirely and that, like Wisconsin, was a terrible, anti-Democratic approach to the situation. "I don't like what you're offering- *pulls plug*." And he's never spoke of it again. (Camden meanwhile is relying on empty Mobile Police Stations to do it's police work, it doesn't work as effective as having real police come by, I speak from experience having to drive through the actual neighborhoods, not just the main street through Cooper and the Transportation Center.)

Finally, as for your facts and falsehoods, that's a problem with the world political system today over everything. People think the other side is believing lies. The biggest problem is that most of the time, one side thinks the other is lying because it's a part of this even bigger lie. You can't fight that. Just watch Glen Beck for a minute to get how his side thinks. Muslim Brotherhood is taking over, yet America is also behind Egypt, so on.. makes no sense to people like me, a person who lives in the world of facts, but conspiracy theorist eat it up and my facts are just part of the conspiracy. Examples the other way around exist of course, but that's dragging this on too long for a response to one sentence.

(3) That's the thing. Again, unions are only something like 10% of the workforce, yet somehow they are bringing multi-billion dollar corporations and the government of all places to their knees, with 9% active unemployment? Come on, that's laughable. And if you want to get into it about who screws who over the most, the Government, not unions are the worst and most consistent perpetrator of injustice and unacceptable embrace of work conditions. Unions are needed the most when it comes to the public sector, they are far from the safest and most reasonable employer.
When it comes to unions stopping a company, give me an example and I will take that back about it just never happening, because chances are, you're going to be coming back here with a completely slanted, "conservative," story. The only times unions go on strike is to protest conditions that are unfair toward workers. It's to keep them safe and the work reasonable when, especially in the public sector, the vast majority of them are making minimum wage. (7.50 in NJ) Oh, which by the way, was agreed on with the unions. You really think 7.50 is reasonable minimum wage today? I make a dollar over that and bust my *** everyday at work. Couldn't imagine working in the public sector making under that. So the helps prove that unions do indeed budge.

(4) Well that's the perfect world scenario of something, unfortunately, we live in the real world. Oh, but wait! There's history to back me up. Remember those golden times, before the mid 1960's? Back when that evil Government didn't have any oversight. Yeah.. times we so great back then. Back when you got payed (by today's standards) 3 dollars an hour, work 80 hours, no days off, and the second you thought, "well I can just get another job!" you were fired on the spot and replaced. Because they all did that. Yeah.. there's no such thing as "competitive" pay, not even close.
Then, if you look beyond just that one mild example (could have gone with the libertarian view, of being able to discriminate freely, though they did do that too, before unions came along...) you had the companies that promised everything good with their products, and because there was no such thing as an FDA to fact check them, you just had to believe their good will. That this beef paddy was made in sanitary conditions, actually beef, and wasn't loaded with ungodly amounts of chemicals and cost effective by-products.
Free market is awesome! If you're on top. It's completely hell if you're actually working in it. Then there's Wall Street and what happened when everyone just agreed "Free market is the best possible thing for them because..." Hm... History repeats itself right?

(5)

...from Beck to Maddow and everything in between. I simply have found that what Beck et all have been saying holds more merit.

*pops like a sackperson*
... I can't really respond with anything to that. If that's how you feel, then so be it, more power to ya for being open about it, but next time you're watching/ listening to Beck, compare his rants with that of a Maddow rant. Basically, there's a lot less acting up and name calling with Maddow. Also, Maddow tends to know what Marxism and Socialism are, while also avoiding calling people Hitler.
Now excuse me, I have to pick up my confetti pieces before I respawn at the checkpoint.

(7)

...is politics the place for trolling?

Absolutely. v



Woot~ Long posts are a great way to burn 30 minutes. Great debating with ya BBB
I love politics.

[Voltergeist]

Like I said, I don't intend to carry on a debate - I don't have the time, nor interest in that - but a few points.

Wall Street happened because the market wasn't free. A small group of companies was hand-picked by the government, and so these companies were thought to be more valuable than they were. When the illusion broke, all hell broke loose.

Beck is, of course, a showman. His show does dramatize everything, it makes good ratings. But, from what I've seen, his chalkboards are based in fact. I'd note that what some call a confusion of the terms socialist and Marxist are mainly due to how the people mentioned describe themselves - if they call themselves Marxists, that's what he'll call them, even though most of the people mentioned are more progressive leaning socialist.

Plus, I have hard time finding deception in someone who wants you to check the facts out for yourself. Whether he's wrong or not, I think he believes what he says.

And that's all for me. Good luck with General Politics, because if you think that can happen, you obviously haven't seen the Offensive thread.

EDIT: I take your anti-*** trolling and raise you one anti-choice troll:

[MrFunctionality]

So there is no mention of cheese in this thread? ffs.

[Macnme]

I simply have found that what Beck et all have been saying holds more merit.

Aw no... now everything you say has so much less credibility.

So you are for the free market?
I take it you mean the free "American Protectionist" market, that goes against every founding principle of "The FreeMarket Economy" as proposed by Adam Smith - the founder of the idea?

True "Free Market" principles would mean allowing unrestricted cheap imports from places like China and Africa, and removing the protectionist handouts for American farmers etc - which would, overnight, destroy the American economy and rebalance world power.

You "Talk" about freemarket economies - and then engage in a protectionist, manufactured economy. There is nothing "free market" about it.

[KoingWolf]

I was going to reply with more of the same back and forth, and then list this wonderful report about the history of Wisconsin and unions. Slightly horrifying, but still wonderfully reported and informative. Then make mention of the situation in Libya, but thought this was a much better (read; happier) thing to post about.

Egyptians, Koreans, Germans, and many more are donating pizza to the protesters in Wisconsin. They are calling in and placing orders to "Ian's," a pizza shop in Madison. They've got a Twitter and Facebook as well, and have gotten a big blackboard together of places that have placed orders to them, for everyone protesting in the capitol. States are abbreviated and circled as they contribute.



Politico source link.

[Bremnen]

Louisiana donated to the cause?
That has to be wrong.

Louisiana is so conservative they would never do anything to promote freedom.


B3: That womans not trolling. I guarantee you she is srs.

[Astrosimi]

Florida is also usually conservative - I imagine it's individual donation from those states and not the guys up top. Or demmies sneaking in a buck or two.

[Voltergeist]

No, no, I meant the guy who showed up with the bigger sign... never mind.

[Macnme]

So I take it John Stewarts Rally to Restore Sanity last year wasn't very successfull then?

[KoingWolf]

...

Yeah, but see the problem BBB, is if that was all he wanted to do, there would be no issue here. There would be grumblings, there would be some groaning, but mostly because, for the large majority, public sector makes you minimum wage, while the private sector pays you much better. It's been that way forever, everywhere. You trade off poor pay in public work, for better benefits.

But that's far from the only thing he's trying to do AND it doesn't affect the Gov's version of the "budget crisis" for anything.

So I take it John Stewarts Rally to Restore Sanity last year wasn't very successfull then?

Well, if you remember, it wasn't that great anyway. Really mixed messages and it's almost like they last their collective balls when the time came to really hammer the point.
So everyone just walked off, disappointed, instead of energized to really change the way everything worked. Missed opportunity!

[Voltergeist]

So I take it John Stewarts Rally to Restore Sanity last year wasn't very successfull then?

So I take it Koing and I are the only ones who know anything outside of ad hominem?

[Macnme]

So I take it Koing and I are the only ones who know anything outside of ad hominem?

My interest in American politics is mainly to point and laugh....

... and occasionally hold my head in my hands and weep.

[KoingWolf]

Time to hold your head in your hands and weep.
Wisconsin, tonight, has passed its Union busting bill.

Despite all the proof it has nothing to do with the budget, despite all the political push from both sides not agreeing with this, they have officially passed the bill. They passed it with no debate and no Democratic members present, 18-1, by cutting the parts of it that were "technically related to appropriating funds" (and thus, even further proof it is not a budget issue).

Live feed from Wisconsin.
http://www.livestream.com/theuptake

[Astrosimi]

Grr. Oh well, not moving there anytime soon. Nor do I plan to become a public worker. Still makes me angry it happened. Aside from the actual content of the bill it was all very dirty politics (even beyond the norm).