What is wrong with the general player base?

[Madafaku•]

I bet H4H wouldnt excist at all without trophies, because whats the point of making a crap level to get hearted if theres not a "you got hearted dis many times" achievement...

[Rustbukkit]

I personally think the bloody trophies are a big, big part of the problem with the general idiocy that can show up on the LBP community at times.

If it wasnt for the accursed trophies, levels like Ramp and other stupidities would likely not be as prevalent.

Personally, I've never seen any good reason for the stupid trophy system being added. I dunno about everyone else here, but I for one could seriously care less. Earning trophies unlocks exactly nothing, so I never bother with them. Not to mention that the STUPID they cause on LBP makes me hate them, lol.


Heck, that stupid "H4H" idea would likely barely be there at all if it werent for those things.

Totally agree. I don't need a trophy in real life to tell me how good I am at something, so why the heck would I need a "virtual" trophy to let me know what I've accomplished either?

Ridiculous. >

[Bridget]

Totally agree. I don't need a trophy in real life to tell me how good I am at something, so why the heck would I need a "virtual" trophy to let me know what I've accomplished either?

Ridiculous. >

You dont, really.

But business execs at Sony dont think that way.

Their basic way of thinking about this is simple: "Microsoft has Achievements and players just LOVE those, so we need something JUST like it cause we're not creative enough to come up with something new and interesting ourselves...."

I hate that type of thinking in the gaming industry....... but unfortunately, cant do much about it.

[Whalio Cappuccino]

I might just be the only one that had a level go from 3 star to 4 star.

And it was after about 100 plays.

Maybe? I dunno.

[gameguy888]

I personally think the bloody trophies are a big, big part of the problem with the general idiocy that can show up on the LBP community at times.

If it wasnt for the accursed trophies, levels like Ramp and other stupidities would likely not be as prevalent.

Personally, I've never seen any good reason for the stupid trophy system being added. I dunno about everyone else here, but I for one could seriously care less. Earning trophies unlocks exactly nothing, so I never bother with them. Not to mention that the STUPID they cause on LBP makes me hate them, lol.


Heck, that stupid "H4H" idea would likely barely be there at all if it weren't for those things.

While I agree that trophies are useless, the idea behind them is likely to give you some sort of a sense of accomplishment. In a small way, it gives games more replay value (depending on the tasks associated with any given trophy). The real fault here is that many people take this sort of thing way too seriously.

Lots of people just want instant gratification. This is the reason cheating devices exist. People just want to run around and say that they've done something, just so they can somehow be considered "cool". Most people that fall in this group don't want to work for it, they just want it now. So, they resort to doing it the lazy/quick way. They don't care. In their minds, they earned it, even if all they did was turn on an infinite lives and health code, and just "held right".

Similarly, many people want to get that Platinum trophy. However, most don't feel like it's worth the time trying to earn it. So, H4H was born. I'm sure it's the general opinion that the Create trophy is the obvious cause of this.

Also, star ratings lead you to no trophies/awards/or much of anything. Therefore, people don't care. I've also noticed that sometimes levels will get completely random and inaccurate tags. Remember, there's a trophy for tagging levels. The quickest way to do that is to pick random levels and just pick the first tag they see. They don't care if your dark and sinister level gets the cute tag. Actually, there's one for playing levels too. Quickest way to get these trophies would be to simply play a given level, exit immediately, default star rank (or just skip it), and first random tag.

So, yes, I agree that trophies are the biggest fault. There's not really anything we can do except wait for all of the obsessed trophy collectors to get the trophies/give up and leave LBP for some other game. Maybe then, things will be better.



Edit: That turned out way longer than I thought it would be. My bad. >.<

[RangerZero]

1- People can't rate properly and will never do. Even professional reviews are bad so just imagine regular people.

2- H4H phenomenon. People will heart any new level popping up and giving it a score just to influence gullible and new creators to heart theirs. They try to take you by the emotional side! LOL

Seriously, too much begging in the community right now. Like it was all plays and hearts that matter. Probably a sad effect of badly designed trophies. There's alot of trophies in the game that encourage a bad use of the game and bad behavior in the community. MM should have put more thought to it all.

.

[Bridget]

While I agree that trophies are useless, the idea behind them is likely to give you some sort of a sense of accomplishment. In a small way, it gives games more replay value (depending on the tasks associated with any given trophy). The real fault here is that many people take this sort of thing way too seriously.

Lots of people just want instant gratification. This is the reason cheating devices exist. People just want to run around and say that they've done something, just so they can somehow be considered "cool". Most people that fall in this group don't want to work for it, they just want it now. So, they resort to doing it the lazy/quick way. They don't care. In their minds, they earned it, even if all they did was turn on an infinite lives and health code, and just "held right".

Similarly, many people want to get that Platinum trophy. However, most don't feel like it's worth the time trying to earn it. So, H4H was born. I'm sure it's the general opinion that the Create trophy is the obvious cause of this.

Also, star ratings lead you to no trophies/awards/or much of anything. Therefore, people don't care. I've also noticed that sometimes levels will get completely random and inaccurate tags. Remember, there's a trophy for tagging levels. The quickest way to do that is to pick random levels and just pick the first tag they see. They don't care if your dark and sinister level gets the cute tag. Actually, there's one for playing levels too. Quickest way to get these trophies would be to simply play a given level, exit immediately, default star rank (or just skip it), and first random tag.

So, yes, I agree that trophies are the biggest fault. There's not really anything we can do except wait for all of the obsessed trophy collectors to get the trophies/give up and leave LBP for some other game. Maybe then, things will be better.



Edit: That turned out way longer than I thought it would be. My bad. >.<

All unfortunate but true.

Particularly about the instant-gratification bit.


I'll honestly just never understand that type of player. Never.

I, personally, do not cheat. Ever. In anything. And I play the types of games that many players would never even TRY due to the utterly absurd difficulty levels of them. Yet still, I never cheat. If Im gonna win, I'll do it because of my own skill. And I definitely dont really care what others think of it, also.

But, bah, many of them dont think that way, do they.


But still, the trophy system itself is my biggest issue.

I understand the need for gratification and all, but the least Sony could have done is come up with something new and original; instead all they did is copy Microsoft's "achievements" system and rename it "trophies". It's exactly the same blasted thing. They could have at least TRIED to do something new..... they just didnt.


Also, devs forced to come up with stupid trophies, shouldnt come up with as many that are..... well..... STUPID. I mean, a trophy just for playing a certain amount of levels in here? How is that an accomplishment?

Siiiiiiiiiiiigh.......


EDIT:

Also, yeah, that thing with the random tags is REALLY ANNOYING.

I dunno, that one just BUGS me.

My big boss-thing Rave got an "easy" tag put on it at one point.

"EASY". Aaaaaaaaaagh. Anyone calling anything I make "easy" is basically asking "Please, kick me in the shin. As hard as possible!"

If you dont wanna put a tag on JUST FREAKING SKIP IT!!!!!

[Thegide]

Glad to see there are more anti-cheaters out there than just me.

When I was a kid, I had a game genie for both my NES and Sega Genesis. Then I grew up and found that games actually held replay value when you didn't cheat. Wow, I must have missed this when I was 12.

Now, it's fairly regular practice for me to go and unlock everything and beat the hardest difficulty of games I buy, no cheats, codes, or anything. Therein lies true replay value and fun.

I actually find it funny when I see people with a hundred or more author hearts when their publications amount to a couple of poorly made levels. It's screamingly obvious that they are trying to fake some kind of skill they clearly lack. The create trophy is no more than a massive burden on most people who seek nothing more than a platinum trophy and it's shameful that the rating systems are completely broken as a result.

Regarding level tags, they are downright absurd and add nothing to this game. It's trivial to get a level tagged 'beautiful', and its insulting when you create a well-balanced level that gets tagged 'frustrating' for no apparent reason. They aren't even useful for searching, since just about any level will turn up, given that all levels inevitably get tagged by every tag.

IMO, get rid of hearts (and opt for a personal friends/favorites list that is not advertised on the front of your profile), get rid of tags, and make star ratings optional. This way, lazy people aren't required to do anything other than play your level, and those that actually care can specify the rating they wish to give, without preset choices in place.

Lessons for LBP2... let's hope Mm learns something from this.

[RangerZero]

Glad to see there are more anti-cheaters out there than just me.

When I was a kid, I had a game genie for both my NES and Sega Genesis. Then I grew up and found that games actually held replay value when you didn't cheat. Wow, I must have missed this when I was 12.

Now, it's fairly regular practice for me to go and unlock everything and beat the hardest difficulty of games I buy, no cheats, codes, or anything. Therein lies true replay value and fun.

I actually find it funny when I see people with a hundred or more author hearts when their publications amount to a couple of poorly made levels. It's screamingly obvious that they are trying to fake some kind of skill they clearly lack. The create trophy is no more than a massive burden on most people who seek nothing more than a platinum trophy and it's shameful that the rating systems are completely broken as a result.

Regarding level tags, they are downright absurd and add nothing to this game. It's trivial to get a level tagged 'beautiful', and its insulting when you create a well-balanced level that gets tagged 'frustrating' for no apparent reason. They aren't even useful for searching, since just about any level will turn up, given that all levels inevitably get tagged by every tag.

IMO, get rid of hearts (and opt for a personal friends/favorites list that is not advertised on the front of your profile), get rid of tags, and make star ratings optional. This way, lazy people aren't required to do anything other than play your level, and those that actually care can specify the rating they wish to give, without preset choices in place.

Lessons for LBP2... let's hope Mm learns something from this.

...or just put more thoughts into your **** trophies. Trophies are good but as anything else in a game, it can be badly designed.

In LBP trophie are so badly designed that it skewed the behavior of the general community people.

.

[NinjaMicWZ]

LBP is the only PS3 game I have a substantial amount of trophies in... I guess if you love a game enough, or have only so many games, it does provide incentive for replay and mastery.

...nonsense like "complete tutorial" or "press start" trophies, are pretty ridiculous though. I suppose though, that they don't make the assumption that completing the tutorial for a young kid or first time gamer isn't a big deal for them, and it probably helps to clue in that there ARE trophies to be had to make the otherwise ignorant player go "huh? I can win stuff?"

The main mistake was just tying trophies to any kind of creation things in LBP, but I can't condemn it - I understand that it gives them an increase in numbers, and might even make the uncreative and reluctant overcome the hurdle of trying to understand the initially daunting create mode to possibly become good contributors... but they honestly, in terms of business, just want people to jump into create mode as part of the play experience regardless of how they view it (be it seriously, or as a useless gimmick, or as a pointless non-medium).

This game deserves success, for it to be a long running venue for people like us, and the stupidity of trophies and retarded levels is like that of commercial music to independent music - a necessary evil that creates a financially lucrative and populated ecosystem for the more creative and important niche artists to find an audience in and parasitically thrive on. Just being able to report "300,000 levels published" is a great amount of bragging rites for them, and solidifies it as something that is performing in a market sense well beyond it's initial release and sale period.

Even though most of those are H4H and first time levels, it's still beneficial to MM and to Sony as a stamp of success and can easily be used as a way to gauge success from onlookers who might fund future LBP add ons, a sequel, the success of the PS3, and future consoles from Sony, or be inspired to create the next great interactive digital medium for gamers.

In the mean time... Liquid Ocelot's motivations and the ultimate goal of the the MGS pack is a giant running gag that shows MM is at least aware of the stupidity and doesn't endorse it... they at least unofficially vocalize their endearment towards the loyal fans who really appreciate the create mode and put their all into it as a game and as an expressive medium.

[Conall-Star]

what's more interesting to me is not the number of stars but the number of plays. that says to me that some how when you first published it, people happened upon it more readily. this likely has something to do with how levels are randomly pushed out to the general populace by the MM algorithms. that, and people are stupid.

[Madafaku•]

my main problem is that sooo few of the levels that are on the Highest rated, and most hearted, and you know, any other place of honor, are actually worth playing.. So many of these levels are dogcrap in a tacoshell.. and most of the people who acctually put alot of thought and planning and time into their creations stay on the "cool Levels" page for about twelve minutes before getting bumped off for the "Unnamed Level" or "Ramp 2: electric bugaloo"

but yea I think the main problem as far as the ratings and labeling goes is that 99% of the people who play your level, have never published a level of their own...

So my solution to the problem would actually utilize the poorly designed trophy system.. It would take into account wether youve earned the "Creator" trophy (or what ever its called.. Look what I made.. somthing) to be able to offer your oppinion. Until you win this trophy any attempt to comment/rate a level you play will be met by the message "Were sorry, but we see you have never personally posted a level. This means that your opinion is not yet important enough to matter. Once youve Tried on the creation gloves yourself, you can return here to comment, with a more meaningful viewpoint. Have a great day!"

[RangerZero]

LBP is the only PS3 game I have a substantial amount of trophies in... I guess if you love a game enough, or have only so many games, it does provide incentive for replay and mastery.

...nonsense like "complete tutorial" or "press start" trophies, are pretty ridiculous though. I suppose though, that they don't make the assumption that completing the tutorial for a young kid or first time gamer isn't a big deal for them, and it probably helps to clue in that there ARE trophies to be had to make the otherwise ignorant player go "huh? I can win stuff?"

The main mistake was just tying trophies to any kind of creation things in LBP, but I can't condemn it - I understand that it gives them an increase in numbers, and might even make the uncreative and reluctant overcome the hurdle of trying to understand the initially daunting create mode to possibly become good contributors... but they honestly, in terms of business, just want people to jump into create mode as part of the play experience regardless of how they view it (be it seriously, or as a useless gimmick, or as a pointless non-medium).

This game deserves success, for it to be a long running venue for people like us, and the stupidity of trophies and retarded levels is like that of commercial music to independent music - a necessary evil that creates a financially lucrative and populated ecosystem for the more creative and important niche artists to find an audience in and parasitically thrive on. Just being able to report "300,000 levels published" is a great amount of bragging rites for them, and solidifies it as something that is performing in a market sense well beyond it's initial release and sale period.

Even though most of those are H4H and first time levels, it's still beneficial to MM and to Sony as a stamp of success and can easily be used as a way to gauge success from onlookers who might fund future LBP add ons, a sequel, the success of the PS3, and future consoles from Sony, or be inspired to create the next great interactive digital medium for gamers.

I think there's no problem making trophies about the creation mode. I think it's because they made trophie about recognition if you like.
Stuff like receiving a trophy because you've been hearted X number of time is wrong because it create ******** like HRH. A trophy about the number of community levels you played is PERFECT FINE as it doesn't traduce in any bad behavior, it can only make the community active.

Trophies are fine. It's just that there was some badly designed one in LBP and DID skew the behavior of the community and encouraged undesired phenonemon. This is because they didn't think trophies are that important while they ARE super important to people. It's to the point where it totally make people play their games different and Xbox owners made the phenomen spread OUTSIDE THE MICROSOFT USERBASE. I don't know what it is if it's not important. MM should have put more thought into their trophies and this thread might not have existed.

.