Video Tutorial - Make the Randomizer Truly Random

[blastroid]

The problem with the randomizer in both Little Big Planet 2 and 3 is the pattern the randomizer creates is not truly random each time the level is loaded. This is important for example if you want to shuffle a deck of cards, have a slot machine, or roll dice. This tutorial will help explain why this happens and demonstrates a method to help resolve the problem.



Video URL = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVYHdObGuM

[Devious_Oatmeal]

This is something I've actually known for a while and I'd like to add some notes.

The system, with the emitter, is somewhat redundant. Although he is right about the player's actions being the only random indicator. (Until they patch up the 'random every time'; which I could have sworn was fixed in 3 and mentioned as a find in the Beta)

You can just do this in one microchip:



The holograms are the choices for the randomizer, which can be as many as you want. (Like the numbers in the video)

The distance from the holograms and the switch (Switch of your choice, ie: player sensor, button, etc.) will need to be filled with those obstacles that will determine the player's randomness.


When the player activates the switch, it will allow the randomizer's output to go through, which they have been unable to this whole time, thanks to the perma-switch (The counter on the bottom) being off.


And! It also looks nice, if you are a neat-junkie.



As a side note:

This system also works in LBP2, except that the nodes (The small circles with the play symbol) would need to be replaced with AND gates. The nodes just make it look nicer.

[blastroid]

The reason your method seems to work above is because the randomizer is already on. The pattern is still the same it just has been running the entire time when you entered the level. You are just at a random spot in the already determined sequence. Do this load your level wait 5 seconds, stand on the button, and write down the pattern (write down allot of steps so you can see the large pattern). Now replay the level but this time wait 6 seconds before standing on the button. You will find the pattern has not changed but where you started in the pattern has. That is why emitting the randomizer randomly is the only way to draw a new pattern, If the randomizer is in the level already the pattern will be the same on a replay even though you may enter the pattern at different times making it feel more random. I wired as your screenshot showed to confirm this.

Example:
5 seconds
1342314342331423
____^started using randomizer here

6 seconds
1342314342331423
_________^started using randomizer here

[master3243]

Simply putting 2 blocks of any material with space in between would force the player to jump so that the time that the player sensor turns on would differ by milliseconds each time which would create a completely new pattern.

[blastroid]

Simply putting 2 blocks of any material with space in between would force the player to jump so that the time that the player sensor turns on would differ by milliseconds each time which would create a completely new pattern.

If the randomizer is already in the level it is never creating a new pattern you are just jumping into different places of the already set pattern. Using the player to create the random time to emit the randomizer is what is causing a new pattern not just turning the randomizer on or off. It is confusing as it looks like a new pattern but it is just a continuation of the pattern that has already been set when the level loaded. If you were to write down the pattern you would see that it is the same pattern just you are entering it at different times.

RANDOMIZER ALREADY IN THE LEVEL:
1.) Level loaded with randomizer already in the level
2.) Randomizer pattern set Example: 321423224112322242314113341234
3.) Player uses the randomizer at random time (player actions) the randomizer gives result depending where it is in the already set pattern:
321423224112322242314113341234
________^ Player happened to start here in the random pattern
4.) Player restarts level
5.) Randomizer pattern set Example: 321423224112322242314113341234
6.) Player uses the randomizer at random time (player actions) the randomizer gives result depending where it is in the already set pattern:
321423224112322242314113341234
________________^ Player happened to start here in the random pattern
7.) Player restarts level
8.) Randomizer pattern set Example: 321423224112322242314113341234
9.) Player uses the randomizer at random time (player actions) the randomizer gives result depending where it is in the already set pattern:
321423224112322242314113341234
_^ Player happened to start here in the random pattern
Note: Notice it is the same pattern each time


RANDOMIZER EMITTED IN THE LEVEL AT A RANDOM TIME:
1.) Level loaded without randomizer already in the level
2.) At a random time (player actions) the randomizer is emitted to the level.
3.) Randomizer pattern set Example: 243223114423142314233221413241
4.) Now when the player uses the ranomizer because it is a unique pattern it does not matter where in the pattern they start.
5.) Player restarts level
6.) At a random time (player actions) the randomizer is emitted to the level.
7.) Randomizer pattern set Example: 442314232331142324113242324414
8.) Now when the player uses the ranomizer because it is a unique pattern it does not matter where in the pattern they start.
Note: Notice the pattern changes each time

[GribbleGrunger]

Hasn't the randomizer now got a new setting? I thought you could set it to select a different sequence each time?

edit: Well that's stupid. What's the point of the pick different pattern option if it doesn't do that?

[blastroid]

Hasn't the randomizer now got a new setting? I thought you could set it to select a different sequence each time?

edit: Well that's stupid. What's the point of the pick different pattern option if it doesn't do that?

Hehe yeah I mention that setting in my video. It got my hopes up until I tested it. Maybe it will work one day and this work around will not be needed.

[GribbleGrunger]

Hehe yeah I mention that setting in my video. It got my hopes up until I tested it. Maybe it will work one day and this work around will not be needed.

What if you used the physics to start the randomiser? I'd considered this with LBP2 but never really needed it. A ball (full bounce) with a tag. Several pins between it and the bottom. Ball drops on entering level. Hits pins until reaches tag sensor at bottom. Randomizer begins.

Oh, and I still can't see what you're doing in the menu! Get those contrasts.

[blastroid]

What if you used the physics to start the randomiser? I'd considered this with LBP2 but never really needed it. A ball (full bounce) with a tag. Several pins between it and the bottom. Ball drops on entering level. Hits pins until reaches tag sensor at bottom. Randomizer begins.

Oh, and I still can't see what you're doing in the menu! Get those contrasts.

Remember it is not about when the randomizer starts but when the pattern get created. If the randomizer is already in the level the same pattern is already set every time the level loads. When you access the randomizer you may be in different spots of the pattern but it is the same pattern. That is why you must use an emitter to randomly at a time bring the randomizer into the level. Using physics would also not work since physics are just cause and effect. Since nothing random has been presented to the physical world the ball would drop in the same fashion colliding with the same objects in the same manner each day. Since LBP does not have wind, real sun, planet rotation, the butterfly effect the physics in the game are like the movie Groundhog Day.

Also I thought of your comments on the last tutorial. I changed the background color to black and did choose a different popit color. Just got to find the right one. Any recommendations on the popit color to choose? Thanks

[LittleBigDave]

Seems like just using an Object Saver to keep the pattern going would avoid all this complication in LBP3.

https://lbp.me/v/qt4hfbg

[GribbleGrunger]

Remember it is not about when the randomizer starts but when the pattern get created. If the randomizer is already in the level the same pattern is already set every time the level loads. When you access the randomizer you may be in different spots of the pattern but it is the same pattern. That is why you must use an emitter to randomly at a time bring the randomizer into the level. Using physics would also not work since physics are just cause and effect. Since nothing random has been presented to the physical world the ball would drop in the same fashion colliding with the same objects in the same manner each day. Since LBP does not have wind, real sun, planet rotation, the butterfly effect the physics in the game are like the movie Groundhog Day.

Also I thought of your comments on the last tutorial. I changed the background color to black and did choose a different popit color. Just got to find the right one. Any recommendations on the popit color to choose? Thanks

Are you sure an object with bounce, dropped through several pins, would result in it landing at exactly the same time, every time?

On popit colour (just for tutorials) Black with red writing. I use that as my default anyway because it's very easy to see everything. That floor still takes the eye though! I think a white platform with the back completely black is the perfect set up for tutorials. There is absolutely nothing to distract you from what's going on and what you are saying.

edit: Yep, you're right. Physics aren't random either.

[Entity]

It seems what the 'new pick every time' setting does is make it so a number isn't repeated e.g. off: 1333244443122 on: 1431432412431

Something that should work better is to use a self-resetting timer wired up to the randomiser emitter, with an object saver placed on the same circuit board. This should give you 30 different random patterns for each second. you set the timer to. You could also use this in combination with Sackboy movement to increase randomisation further.

[blastroid]

It seems what the 'new pick every time' setting does is make it so a number isn't repeated e.g. off: 1333244443122 on: 1431432412431

You can see in the video I talk about that settings and even turn it on and it made no difference.

Also On / Off means nothing than continuing the pattern. When the level is re-loaded the same pattern is chosen.

To make sure a number is not repeated during the sequence you can change the pattern to Add. This is also talked about in the video. Even when not repeating it still is a repeating pattern per sequence chunk 1431432412431, replay 1431432412431, replay 1431432412431...

[Sehven•]

It seems everybody is making you defend your need for a randomizer to actually be, you know, random. I appreciate the tutorial and, while making it so that the player's interaction causes the randomizer to pop up in a random spot in its pre-determined sequence, there are scenarios where that simply isn't a good enough option. For example, if you need something to randomly happen at the start of a level before Sackboy has had time to seed it. Also, since the sequence is pre-determined, a player might notice that something like a random sequence of lights is the same every time they play even though it doesn't necessarily start at the same point in the sequence. In other word:

Random sequence = 1,2,6,3,4,1,1,5,3,6,1,3,3...
Player observes: 6,3,4,1,1,5,3,6,1,3,3... on one play and
2,6,3,4,1,1,5,3,6,1,3,3... on the next.

[blastroid]

It seems everybody is making you defend your need for a randomizer to actually be, you know, random. I appreciate the tutorial and, while making it so that the player's interaction causes the randomizer to pop up in a random spot in its pre-determined sequence, there are scenarios where that simply isn't a good enough option. For example, if you need something to randomly happen at the start of a level before Sackboy has had time to seed it. Also, since the sequence is pre-determined, a player might notice that something like a random sequence of lights is the same every time they play even though it doesn't necessarily start at the same point in the sequence. In other word:

Random sequence = 1,2,6,3,4,1,1,5,3,6,1,3,3...
Player observes: 6,3,4,1,1,5,3,6,1,3,3... on one play and
2,6,3,4,1,1,5,3,6,1,3,3... on the next.

Yes I agree this is not needed for example light sequence but a shuffling a deck of cards or roll of dice it is. Also if you need something to be random at the level load this would not work either. The answer I have not seen yet is how to you create a fresh random pattern every time you load the level.

In my level Blastroid's Resort (LBP2)
I have a slot machine where I use the technique to make it random just not picking a point it the same pattern that gets chosen when the level loads. Now if I did not use this technique to create a new pattern each time the player gets to the slot machine it may or may not matter. If the player cannot remember well they may not even notice that part of the slots is acting exactly as it did on their last play. Some players never play the level more than once. Also it depends on when the player activated the slot machine if the randomizer is already doing it's thing in the background their first pull of the slot machine might appear random enough.If they keep pulling though and write down the results they will find that they catch up to the same pattern on each play of the level. Is this a big deal, not at all. Does it need to be fixed, probably not. Does my OCD agree with it, NO!


Currently I have listed to everyone's suggestions but when putting them to practice I get the same pattern each time. The only way I have come to a solution is the method I demonstrate in my video that emits the randomizer using the player to help choose a random time to do this. I would absolutely love an easier solution or to have this patched. Many creators will never need this in their level and others do not care it may be the same pattern over and over or for their scenario it is hard to even tell it is the same pattern. This tutorial is mainly for those technical times where you would truly need a new pattern when the level loads.

I thought it would be fun to kind of show when the randomizer patterns get set to show it is not really random on replay. To 0.01% of creators this may matter. I do like though I finally got someone to comment on my tutorials. Lets keep the conversation going.

[GribbleGrunger]

Of course, if we had logic that could take the time/date of the PS4 and apply it in game, true randomization would be easy.

[LittleBigDave]

Currently I have listed to everyone's suggestions but when putting them to practice I get the same pattern each time. The only way I have come to a solution is the method I demonstrate in my video that emits the randomizer using the player to help choose a random time to do this. I would absolutely love an easier solution or to have this patched.

OK, I made a simple sample level demo'ing the Object Saver technique I had posted above:
Randomizer Example

This seems like it's working great to me, but I'd be interested in other's feedback. I agree this stuff matters.

If you play that little sample, I would be interested to hear what you get for an initial pattern on their first play through. I figure we'd all get the same as this isn't player-data-based. So a possible drawback will be if you get the same pattern every time you first play, that might allow players to reset their data so they can anticipate the pattern to get a higher score. That might matter a lot in card games, but probably less so in most levels.

EDIT: OK, actually this Object Saver example isn't working consistently now for me. I'm not sure why it works sometimes and not others. It seemed to work well on my Moon, and hitting replay or finishing the level and playing again would give me a fresh sequence. This continued the first couple times after publishing to my Earth too. But then the published version started giving me the same pattern every single time. (Well, except one time in the middle I believe it gave me a different pattern, which is stranger still.)

[GribbleGrunger]

testt

Well, that was random.

[LittleBigDave]

Well, that was random.

I was having a heck of a time getting my reply to post. Kept getting server error messages. Not sure why...

[GribbleGrunger]

I was having a heck of a time getting my reply to post. Kept getting server error messages. Not sure why...

It happens from time to time for me too. It drove me nuts when I was trying to update the LBP2 tutorial directory.