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  1. #1

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    Could someone please explain to me how this level is handling z axis movement? I get that it is mapping everything to the x/y plane up top, with collisions if you aren't above it, and the moving platform is just a speed sensor, yada, yada, yada, BUT i cannot figure out how the piston and microchip is handling z axis moving. There are no hitboxes on the platforms (the yellow boxes get rid of collisions), so what is making it land so precisely? Also, I've experimented with changing ramp sizes, and platforms and it works perfectly, but I cannot see why. I think I am missing some logic when I'm looking at it.

    Here's the link: https://lbp.me/v/qt4h0m9/topreviews?p=2&l=12

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  3. #2

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    I just played it and I can't explain it either. How can the door move 3D like? In a LBP game? That's a cool thing to use. I guess I'll mever know. The level is copyable though.

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  5. #3
    Sackperson Private koltonaugust's Avatar
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    The door is a decoration disk I believe with push logic (its two of the pistons). I just mainly am confused about the jumping since I don't believe it is the bot which is doing anything collision wise, but rather the piston and box surrounding the bot should be in charge of it.

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  7. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdkd99 View Post
    I just played it and I can't explain it either. How can the door move 3D like? In a LBP game? That's a cool thing to use. I guess I'll mever know. The level is copyable though.
    A wee-bit late to the party here, but I thought I could shine some light on the confusion here.
    Firstly, the methods Steve uses in that level are kinda... messy. I don't mean to sound disrespectful or anything, but as someone whose building their own 3D content, even I look at his level and go cross-eyed. It's not the kind of thing that can be understood at first, or even fourth glance.
    For the swinging doors, I made a quick video that may be able to help:



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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnell7 View Post
    A wee-bit late to the party here, but I thought I could shine some light on the confusion here.
    Firstly, the methods Steve uses in that level are kinda... messy. I don't mean to sound disrespectful or anything, but as someone whose building their own 3D content, even I look at his level and go cross-eyed. It's not the kind of thing that can be understood at first, or even fourth glance.
    For the swinging doors, I made a quick video that may be able to help:



    Pretty useful!


    signature 2016: "2016 yet I'm still using a PlayStation 3...." --sir monacle

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  12. #7
    Sackperson Private koltonaugust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnell7 View Post
    A wee-bit late to the party here, but I thought I could shine some light on the confusion here.
    Firstly, the methods Steve uses in that level are kinda... messy. I don't mean to sound disrespectful or anything, but as someone whose building their own 3D content, even I look at his level and go cross-eyed. It's not the kind of thing that can be understood at first, or even fourth glance.
    For the swinging doors, I made a quick video that may be able to help:

    I agree about the messy, but i give slack because this is LBP and that was released really quickly after release, so it was more of a prototype. Do you happen to know how to do the ramps though? That gate logic is super clean, and I would love to see a clean ramp execution.

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  14. #8
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    I have never seen that spinner thing before! 8U

    I still really REALLY wish this game was on PC as well. So much potential.



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  16. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by koltonaugust View Post
    I agree about the messy, but i give slack because this is LBP and that was released really quickly after release, so it was more of a prototype. Do you happen to know how to do the ramps though? That gate logic is super clean, and I would love to see a clean ramp execution.
    Think of it this way, the invisible 2D map he has (which allows the character to move left/right (x), and up/down (y).), converts it's x,y coords into the x,z coords of the visible, 3D map (z being the depth axis). But being a 3D map, he needs more than just x and z, he needs y as well. Or you know jumping, ramps, etc..

    His solution was to have the top/down map calculate (x,z), while the 3D map calculates (y). A kind of teamwork between both maps to present a fluid 3D feel. And while that seems innocent enough... doing so brings many complications.

    For instance, the ramp you're interested in is an elevator that raises in response to the character going further up its corresponding ramp (an illusion). This itself is pretty nifty, but using an elevator immediately restricts a creator from turning their map multiplayer, since you'd need individuallized elevators for each player. The elevators also can't be allowed to make contact with each other, since they all occupy the same space.

    The truth is, making a game like this isn't easy. If all that sounded complicated, it's because it kinda is.
    My current work is to make my top-down map slightly 3D, so that the top-down character interacts properly.
    By using "sticker-panel impact sensors" and "analog tag sensors" to increase the height signal as a character walks up a ramp, I can simulate what we see in Steve's level. There's more to it than just that... but the principle is simple.

    I'd make a tutorial for that... but I don't have all the wrinkles ironed-out yet. As far as Steve's ramp though, I suppose I can make a tutorial if you really want.
    Last edited by Bonnell7; 05-17-2017 at 04:18 AM.


  17. #10
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    I'd have to look at the level again to see what is colliding with what in the level. I thought there was a physics sensor that disabled blocks when near, but I might have read it wrongly and actually it enabled it or something. I know another limitation of Steve's implementation is that you can't go under anything (not in the stuff he provides), but that's just some easy checking.

    I'm trying to create a 3D movement system for giggles, but I seem to be running into problems with LBP3 logic. I can't see an easy way to do it without analogue impact sensors which LBPV introduced, I believe (and I REALLY don't see a way to do multiplayer without top-down only scratch that. It would be 4 tags for z values (1 for each)). I have a system that can track the floor perfectly, but I run into problems with big drops. I think I'm going to try a pulse signal for checking if the current z axis of the ground is less than the z axis you are at (for your explanation z = y). If so, just start a fall until its not. This works out in theory (getting rid of a sequencer (hopefully)), but I doubt it will follow through quite so simply. I shouldnt have a problem with over falling if z axis keeps getting set to the floor if it's above. Then all i would have to worry about is impacts with higher z axis values which I might just make it not let you move in that direction.

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  19. #11

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    Yeah... I hate using sequencers for logic. The 0.03333... second delay might not be a whole lot at first, but if you use a lot of sequencers in succession, the player will notice the poor responsiveness of the game. Finding zero-latency logic for such things is nice, but they're typically bulky.
    I too am making a 3D level. But... I've ran into issues regarding 100% signal caps. Basically this restricts me from using the sqrt found in Pythag.
    I know I can use pistons that act as right-triangle legs and what-not (where the hypotenuse piston acts as pythag)... but I don't want piston triangles for every object on my 2D map.
    Every sqrt approximation method I've found online requires values greater than 1... which bites. Same goes for pythag.


  20. #12
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    So far. One solution I have found for 3D levels is having stairs be an animation sequence. It limits the player's ability to move freely along the stairs, but it does help some. Similar to how Link just travels up the stairs when the player approaches them in some of the handheld games.
    And another being to either limit the thing for only one player at a time, like say if it were an actual elevator, if two players were there, it'd say something like, "Maximum weight capacity reached". And for stairs, you would probably have to give each player their own 'stairs logic'.

    But yeah. There are a ton of issues with 3D levels. Though the hardest part is the vertical movement.

    I still really REALLY wish this game was on PC as well. So much potential.




  21. #13
    Sackperson Private koltonaugust's Avatar
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    What really upsets me is that I'm used to LBPV logic and there's a perfect solution for it (analog impact), but there's only 3 layers there. I really wish they took all of the logic features that were introduced and ported them. That way, the vertical movement would only be slightly expensive on ramps, but even then, less so.

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  23. #14
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    If only I had access to an object that was as tall as Sackboy, from the ground to his torso, as thin as his torso, and solid, I'd be able to fix all my issues with making a 3D level.

    And an animation of him climbing up a ledge.

    I still really REALLY wish this game was on PC as well. So much potential.




  24. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious_Oatmeal View Post
    If only I had access to an object that was as tall as Sackboy, from the ground to his torso, as thin as his torso, and solid, I'd be able to fix all my issues with making a 3D level.

    And an animation of him climbing up a ledge.
    The solid version of Sackboy can surely be done. The animation... I dunno.

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  26. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious_Oatmeal View Post
    If only I had access to an object that was as tall as Sackboy, from the ground to his torso, as thin as his torso, and solid, I'd be able to fix all my issues with making a 3D level.

    And an animation of him climbing up a ledge.
    You looked into THACK? Its a glitched material that is the same thickness as sackboy, pretty sure it still works in lbp3


  27. #17
    LBPC Bounty Hunter Devious_Oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evret View Post
    You looked into THACK? Its a glitched material that is the same thickness as sackboy, pretty sure it still works in lbp3
    I am VEEEERRRRY cautious about those glitches. I mostly just try and avoid them altogether after some issues I had with some glitches back then. I would use thack if I trusted it. Plus. I don't know how it would even react with the logic I would use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnell7 View Post
    The solid version of Sackboy can surely be done. The animation... I dunno.
    The last alternative I have for the animation is to just not have one. I'd have to use a sudden-climb, where the animation is junked in favor of a quick transition of the character to the top of the ledge. That, or do something like a fancy flip upwards, similar to a Samus flip.

    This is a level I made to test some 3D stuffs. Adding in attacking will have its own issues, and a few fixes to timing and such for the animation would be worked on, but what urks me is that walking up to a wall has the knight clip through the wall aesthetically. And there are some other things with floor detection as it gets annoying with floors that are towards the player, hence the fencing on the ramp. But you can climb up the front side of the slab of rock under the climbing fence as an example of what I mean.
    Last edited by Devious_Oatmeal; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:16 PM.

    I still really REALLY wish this game was on PC as well. So much potential.



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  29. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious_Oatmeal View Post
    I am VEEEERRRRY cautious about those glitches. I mostly just try and avoid them altogether after some issues I had with some glitches back then. I would use thack if I trusted it. Plus. I don't know how it would even react with the logic I would use.
    i've never had a crash or any other problems from thack or theck, and i remembered i have used it in lbp3.
    definitely one of the more stable glitches around

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  31. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious_Oatmeal View Post
    If only I had access to an object that was as tall as Sackboy, from the ground to his torso, as thin as his torso, and solid, I'd be able to fix all my issues with making a 3D level.
    Wait... you mean you want a block that's as thick as Sackboy is tall... aiight.

    History lesson: Thack got it's name because it's Sackboy's... thickness. Theck is a checkpoint's thickness.
    I don't remember what thock was...

    But anyway, these thickness glitches are meant to replicate the ways that special objects interact with the world (a material that goes where usually only checkpoints can go, or Sackboy, etc.). What you seem to be after is height to thickness translation.

    Truth is, even if you made/were given an accurate layer-ruler that allowed you to determine Sackboy's height in layer-thickness, you'd have to find a way to construct a material with that determined thickness.

    Don't discount Thack though... you can use it's thickness to determine the width of your final block.

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  33. #20

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    This sounds interesting. Where did you get that information?

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