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  1. #1

    Default RE: Villainous Venture Contest!

    After looking at the posts in this contest, I think the reason it didn't do well wasn't because of the rules. It's more so to do with the lack of motivated creators still on this forum. As I've been looking at other forums, LBN(the site is down) is essentially dead, so that leaves LBF and Sackinima. Even as I see those forums, only very few people seem to be posting new levels, and most of them are dedicated creators. LBP just doesn't have the spirit that it used to have. People aren't coming to forums, no one is posting levels anymore. As you said previously, Lord-Dreamz, people aren't as motivated to participate in LBP contests anymore because there's really no reward in making levels. LBP, unlike Steam, doesn't allow developers to get payed, and so massive amounts of work are gone unrewarded. Many of the expert creators on this forum and other LBP forums left ages ago because of the lack of reward and LBP3's bugs. LBP, while a good franchise, was doomed to fail because creators, despite all their hard work, cannot find away for their creations to go rewarded. So ultimately, the contest didn't fail because of the rules in my opinion, but rather the limited system of Littlebigplanet that has been around ever since the launch of LBP2.

    So to conclude: The reasons this contest failed is because many of the motivated creators that used to be on LBPC back in LBP2 and earlier on in LBP3's life cycle have all left and moved onto other things. It's likely that only, at most, maybe 10 people saw your contest on this forum. If this was posted, say, back in 2013-2014, there would def. be a lot more people participating. But LBP has since died off, creators have moved on, and its because LBP lacks a rewarding system. Many unknown creators who put much effort into their work found their creations being ignored, lost motivation, and left the game. I was one of those creators. Despite working hard on several creations in the later portion of LBP2's life cycle, I found my creations getting ignored and not cared about. I lost motivation to create, and moved on to other games. Even popular creators find their creations not getting payed, and eventually left LBP. LBP, while a good franchise, ultimately had unremovable limitations that caused thousands of dedicated creators to leave and move on to other things.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    I would have to disagree with you @blacksackman. There was nothing wrong with the contest or its rules. Its just that not many people on this site or on other forums seem to be active in terms of creating. In fact, LBP forum contests seem to be dying out. Many creators(at least the ones I've see in LBP3) are getting famous simply by posting their levels in-game. LBP's system rewards popular/famous creators, while leaving unknown/unpopular creators to die out. It was a good franchise, with the whole "Play, Create, and Share" slogan, but it made the mistake that almost every social media site I've seen makes, promoting popular content and not giving unknown creators a chance to shine. While I respect StevenI, his biggest mistake was only MM picking famous/popular creators that he knew about, while not really exploring the creations of new creators who put much effort into their work. Ultimately, the LBP franchise died because the developers(both MM and Sumo-Digital) forgot to address one of the most obvious and important issues, giving unknown creators a way to shine or at least make some money.


    EDIT: Also, to mods, please give all responsibility to me for the revivial of this thread. It was completely my decision and I will take responsibility for it. Lord-Dreamerz has already PM'd me and said he won't be participating in the discussion out of respect for the mods.
    Last edited by gurren009; 02-04-2018 at 06:00 PM.


  2. #2
    LBPC crew member mdkd99's Avatar
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    I know that my opinion isn't what you want, but I'll leave it anyway.

    I think this contest was very interesting. I would have participated, but I am also working on a big project: Too Late. I want to finish the development in late 2018. When it comes to the rules I'd say that most of the rules were okay. But I also think that we would've seen similar entries, if at least 3 people made something. I think you had too high expectations for the LBP community. Well, I have seen cool adventures and cool LBP films with great stories, but it takes very long, to write a story, make the characters, make voice acts for them, build the setpieces, make a good gaming experience and to accept, that all this work might not get as much attention as you want. I know that stuff, since I am working on my projects for over three years now.

    All I am saying here, is that there were too many rules for me personally. The entries would've been a little similar when it comes to the story aspect. And you can't really expect adventure game - like levels in LBP. Remember, it takes a lot of time to actually make something like that and after all we creators aren't big development teams with hundreds of developers, we are a single person or a small group, who dedicate their time to nice projects.

    And to your point, Gurren: I was once a unknown creator with less then 50 hearts in LBP Vita and like 60 hearts in LBP3 and my levels had like 50-80 plays. I didn't even get 100 plays. This was like 2 months ago. Steven doesn't just pick the levels of the big guys. He also gave my level a Team Pick. It has more than 11000 plays. All of my levels have at least 500 plays now and I have 700 hearts. I am not famous, but a few people now know me and my levels.

    I don't want to change your minds and how you think and your opinions. This is just one man's humble opinion and I really don't want to offend you folks and I don't feel like a higher part of this society. Just one man's humble opinion.

    In fact I'm looking forward to your next contest, Lord Dreamerz. If you make one. Despite all the negativity you received some feedback and I am sure you can make another interesting contest


  3. #3

    Default

    @mdkd99 going to be replying to yours in a second...

  4. Thanks!


  5. #4

    Default

    This is the second time you disagree with me Gurren, you just like to disagree with me, don't you?

    All joking aside, you bring up a another level of aspects concerning the failure of the contest. I knew those points as well but my opinion is still what my old post said. I merely focused on the contest itself and why it's not of the ideal structure in these times. Your point Gurren just adds to what I said because if only 10 people would consider to join instead of 100, it's still the last barrier with the rules that those 10 has to evaluate. While there's a lot less activity on the forums, the contest still has 1600 views and that's very good considering the situation. Also, the 100 dollar prize is too juicy to ignore even when there's only a few creators left.

    I came to my conclusion and chose to point fingers on the rules because I have observed/participated in many community contests and I know the recipe to success. A community contest should be simple and only stick to one theme while having few rules, the optimal limit should actually just be one rule that corresponds with the theme. This is my opinion and you may see things differently but I don't make assumptions out of thin air, I'm an analyzer and more than often there's sources to my claims, in this case it's from observing nearly all community contests since they first appeared. I think that the results speaks for itself and the internal flaws of the contest was the nail in the coffin.

    To original poster: I was not planning on posting a response to the original poster but since Gurren has revived the locked thread I might as well now. There was no need to justify yourself on my every single point, it was just constructive criticism and MY own opinions. I get it that you were frustrated/upset over the results but that still doesn't grant you a reason to lash out on a friendly sack like me. Emotions does that to you so I will ignore those nasty words for that reason. Also, I'm not hyper active on forums and I rarely post but when I do I can assure you that it's because I'm genuinely interested in the topic. While we may not be on terms regarding the reason behind the failure of the contest, we can at least agree to disagree.


  6. #5

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    @mdkd I have to disagree with 2 parts of your post.

    The first part about the rules in the contest being too much is actually something I would disagree with. I think having a plethora of rules in a contest actually adds to the tension and challenge. Many of the LBPC contests I've seen are too open-ended, and giving many creative players the freedom to make their own choices. While I enjoyed these contests at first, they eventually got boring. LBPC contests are kind of like school projects, giving one the freedom to choose how they want to style something. Lord-Dreamz contest was interesting in the sense that by adding more rules, even the most skilled creators have to do extended amounts of testing and revising in order to meet the required expectations. And by only having 1 judge, the tension also springs up exponentially. I feel this contest would have been better done back in the LBP2 days, but unfortunately LBP just isn't as active.

    And I respect your opinion on StevenI @mdkd99. I just feel that certain creators who had 4-6 MM or Team Picks were too spoiled. This is kind of StevenI's fault. The limit on MM Picks should have been like 2 levels. That way new creators could have their creations picked without old ones constantly getting theirs picked. I kind of got frustrated at times when I would see certain creators with like 6 MM picks. But yeah, as you implied, its not like StevenI always picked popular creators. In fact, it's not even StevenI's fault. The plethora of levels in LBP is probably a better explanation.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Haha @blacksackman, I do like disagreeing with you because you're good at debating!
    As for Lord-Dreamerz, he PM'd me that he won't be continuing this topic/discussion out of respect to the mods, so please put all responsibility on me for the continuation of this discussion. I simply wanted to add in some of my thoughts.


    I wasn't aware of the 100 dollar prize actually. I see that @blacksackman you read the entirety of the original contest post, and its my fault that I didn't actually read most of it, but I did get the gist of it. What I liked about Lord-Dreamerz contest was that it was unique. But you're right that it had no chance of being successful, because most people were intimidated by all the rules. But that's actually what I LOVED about the contest. As a creator who gave up on creating in LBP earlier on in LBP3's life cycle, I'm probably lazy and have no idea what I'm saying. But in all honesty, I do wish there was at least 1 person willing to take on this contest and win the 100 dollar prize. I think complication and intimidation are great challenges in order to pull out the best of someone. And considering that it was Lord-Dreamerz's contest, I think he would have been very pleased with whoever would post an entry, regardless if it was only 1 or 2 people, so long as it was quality work.

    So yeah, @blacksackman you knew more about this contest than I did, and I haven't ever participated in any forum contest, so in terms of experience, you definitely have more. I was just thinking that I would totally play a level from someone who did participate in this contest though. The uniqueness of the rules would def. create a very interesting level.


  7. #6
    LBPC crew member mdkd99's Avatar
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    When it comes to the rules we seem to have a different opinion and I'm okay with that.

    I don't have any more words to add.


  8. #7
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    Keep in mind, this is coming from the perspective of someone who never created or even wanted to create a platformer in LBP.

    I thought the contest was interesting.

    If I didnt have ten million things going on already, I would have entered. Personally I felt it was one of the most interesting competitions proposed in some time. I also get the point of it. LBP levels are losing some creativity. In fact, I havent played community levels in well over a year. Maybe I have high expectations, but I just havent played a level in a really long time that wowed me or seemed to separate itself from the rest of the levels.

    Sometimes forcing creators within a specific bounds can ironically lead to more freedom and ideas in creation. Its comfortable to be free, and with LBP being several years old, it was exciting to force us into specific bounds to promote levels we havent seen before, or much of. In fact, I think its a goal of many creation competitions.

    There was also a really graceful time period. You can make a really gigantic project in 4-5 months, so I would expect these levels to be at least 20 mins. I really interpreted this as a "fill the level" type requirement. I dont think you would have been "dqued" for having players finish the level in 18 min (I could be wrong tho lol)

    I also don't think people create in LBP for money. Some of us started LBP when we were kids, so naturally growing up you get far more responsibility and just dont have time to do it. Or people may have gotten careers or chosen career paths because of LBP. Its just an old game basically.

    As with any competition, it isnt for everyone and perhaps sadly shows the fact that most of the elite and competitive creators have left LBP. Something like this would have been buzzing back in the day.


  9. #8
    LBPCentral Creator Spotlight CrewUniverseUnderConstruction jwwphotos's Avatar
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    Wow... did we really need this thread? I already locked the contest thread per request of the OP. Not sure we needed a play by play of who thinks what was done wrong, right or whatever. Maybe that's me, but the rules of this site also state:

    9. Be respectful! Please remember that this is a community site and that discussion of potentially sensitive or controversial subjects (such as religion and politics) is allowed, but will be carefully moderated. Calm, reasoned debate is encouraged and you are free to express your options - as long as you remember to respect the opinions of others. Goading or forcing others into debate is considered trolling or bullying and is neither allowed nor appreciated. Please use common sense and your best judgment. We also have a no naming/shaming policy here. We understand that others don't always play nice, but calling them out by name is not allowed.


    So in that same vein.. Please be kind. I know many who have never ran a contest, nor put up their own money (quite substantial I might add) to help spur some interest in a game that less and less play. I think it was commendable... It was anyone's choice to join in or not, for whatever reason. What happened the other day was taken care of. So out of respect, please keep this thoughtful and respectable.

    Thank you in advance
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  10. #9

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    You’re right at jwwphotos. My bad. I kind of wanted to throw in my thoughts, and disregarded the wish of closing this thread by you and Lord-Dreamerz.


  11. #10
    LBPCentral Spotlight CrewLBPCentral Spotlight Crew biorogue's Avatar
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    Man, this is just like the good ol' days! And look at me, I can't find my "guy eating popcorn gif." Jdubs, PuHLEASE don't lock the thread. This is the most action I've seen on LBPC in the past 2 years!


    Follow me on the twitterz @bioswoop


  12. #11
    LBPCentral Creator Spotlight CrewUniverseUnderConstruction jwwphotos's Avatar
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    You crack me up bio.
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  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by biorogue View Post
    Man, this is just like the good ol' days! And look at me, I can't find my "guy eating popcorn gif." Jdubs, PuHLEASE don't lock the thread. This is the most action I've seen on LBPC in the past 2 years!
    Haha, looking back on this a couple days later, I feel I caused a lot of unnecessary drama lol. But yeah, I agree! I love when we have debates like this! We get to disagree with each other, understand each other's view points, and move on with our lives

  14. Thanks!


  15. #13

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    .....
    Last edited by MofoSuperVillain; 02-16-2018 at 11:03 AM.

  16. #14
    LBPCentral Creator Spotlight CrewUniverseUnderConstruction jwwphotos's Avatar
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    Please stay on topic.
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  17. #15
    Sackperson Sergeant Lord-Dreamerz's Avatar
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    Originally I wasn’t going to reply to this topic whatsoever as I had the old topic closed and there was nothing extra I needed to say, also I needed to focus my time on other things. However I am considering recreating my LBP contest slightly sooner in my life then I was thinking about before because of some new reasons. So I feel I might as well explain and clear-up a few things. But note I won’t be replying to any possible replies here afterwards... I’m not interested in debates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rpg Maker View Post
    Keep in mind, this is coming from the perspective of someone who never created or even wanted to create a platformer in LBP.

    I thought the contest was interesting.

    If I didnt have ten million things going on already, I would have entered. Personally I felt it was one of the most interesting competitions proposed in some time. I also get the point of it. LBP levels are losing some creativity. In fact, I havent played community levels in well over a year. Maybe I have high expectations, but I just havent played a level in a really long time that wowed me or seemed to separate itself from the rest of the levels.

    Sometimes forcing creators within a specific bounds can ironically lead to more freedom and ideas in creation. Its comfortable to be free, and with LBP being several years old, it was exciting to force us into specific bounds to promote levels we havent seen before, or much of. In fact, I think its a goal of many creation competitions.

    There was also a really graceful time period. You can make a really gigantic project in 4-5 months, so I would expect these levels to be at least 20 mins. I really interpreted this as a "fill the level" type requirement. I dont think you would have been "dqued" for having players finish the level in 18 min (I could be wrong tho lol)

    I also don't think people create in LBP for money. Some of us started LBP when we were kids, so naturally growing up you get far more responsibility and just dont have time to do it. Or people may have gotten careers or chosen career paths because of LBP. Its just an old game basically.

    As with any competition, it isnt for everyone and perhaps sadly shows the fact that most of the elite and competitive creators have left LBP. Something like this would have been buzzing back in the day.
    First I gotta say big thanks to RPGmaker for understanding the concepts and thoughts behind my contest perfectly. I agree a lot with what he said. And it’s true that creators likely wouldn’t had got punished for stepping outside the rules little. The rules were not THAT strict. Some rules were more just loose guidelines to help the creators have a idea on what to make, also a lot of jokes were mixed into the info... some jokes might had made things seem more serious then intended.

    My favorite types of LBP contests are ones that aim to inspire players to create something truly different from the normal everyday forgettable content. And lots of rules at least to me makes things interesting, fun and very challenging. My contest contained everything that “I” love to see in a contest, basically it was my dream contest idea which is something I would enter myself if I saw it. As a artist I believe in self expression in nearly everything I make, I don’t make things that I wouldn’t myself love.

    Honestly the villain theme was NOT the most important part of the contest. Pretty sure some folks misunderstood what the contest was aiming for…. well that happens often enough when somebody does something highly unusual. The villain theme was just roughly 25% of what the contest was about. The main goal was to create a character focused story driven mini-adventure level. To explain simply I‘ll put it all on a totem pole of importance. Characters> Story> Short adventure game> Villain theme. Personally the concept of reducing the contest’s ideas to just 1 or 2 of these ideas does not interest me at all and I never would run the contest in the first place if it had to come to that. There would be no point in having people make something that I couldn’t bring myself to even barely care about.

    On that note. It’s like Jwwphotos said… NOBODY is forced to enter a contest. If some people hate the rules then they just need not enter. It’s simple as that. Giving suggestions to people running a event is normally fine… until people instead start demanding for the suggestions be made and disrespect the people running the event. That’s not cool. People should be having fun in most contests and not trying to turn everything into a debate. So with that said… Next contest I will be including a “No debates over the rules.” type rule and replace one of the other old rules with it. People should respect judges/mods more in these cases.

    I will admit a small mistake I made was believing in the misguided feeling that it was still 5+ years ago where we had tons and tons of super skilled creators to the point a scary huge undertaking of a contest with lots o rules and a big prize would still get enough entries…. Regardless It’s more then ok that I made the contest not available to everybody of every skill level and limited it to mostly dedicated ambitious creators. I don’t have any desire for simply “ANYBODY” entering something I make. And if that results in nobody entering… then I can live with that.

    There is something else I feel some people misunderstood. I wasn’t really mad when I ended my contest… it didn’t actually bother me much nobody ended up entering. It was disappointing sure, but it was still not a real problem. I don’t mind something I make failing so to speak as I can always try again later. And in this case it didn’t even truly 100% fail for all the reasons why I created it. Half if not more of the fun and goal of my contest for me was simply me making and running it… Because again I made what I enjoyed. People actually entering and making the levels would had just been the ice-cream on top the cake for me. Also important is I just wanted the contest to inspire people, and I know it did little of that. On hindsight it was a mistake to make the “my contest is over” post appear super angry… I did that because I was still having to much fun staying in character as the evil overlord persona for the contest I made, I enjoy light role-playing honestly.

    I will be reworking my rules and content for the contest next time, as I have my own ideas how to improve things by quite a bit. And no I won’t be taking suggestions from the open public as it should be clear by now. I will only be talking things over with some chosen people I know in private.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdkd99 View Post
    And you can't really expect adventure game - like levels in LBP. Remember, it takes a lot of time to actually make something like that and after all we creators aren't big development teams with hundreds of developers, we are a single person or a small group, who dedicate their time to nice projects.
    You should have more faith in the abilities of creators if you truly believe that it was all to hard for normal skilled creators. Don’t forget people had over 5 months to make something that did NOT NEED to go past 1 level in size. The fact I hinted at that in the rules itself by saying the creator didn’t have to create more then roughly 10 mins of gameplay and 10 mins of story and can do any number of levels they needed for it should give that fact away. Furthermore there has been many LBP creators who can and already have created mini-adventures with story + characters + gameplay alone without help… Lets not forget I said teams were allowed too. I personally could had created everything the contest said in under 3 weeks alone easy if I had the free time, especially considering it wasn’t required to go beyond 1 level. A tiny mini-adventure is actually pretty easy to make in LBP… Doesn’t matter that many LBP players won’t put the effort into it. Many creators are perfectly capable in making bigger projects. People who don’t want to put the effort into it or would not find the contest fun just don’t need to enter. It’s no big deal.

    Anyways thanks for also saying you are looking forward to my next contest! And thanks to everybody else who also enjoyed the concepts for the contest. That's everything I have to say on this topic. Cya yall next time!
    ~Lets go on a fantastic ADVENTURE!~


  18. #16
    LBPC crew member mdkd99's Avatar
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    I think it is possible to make a adventure in 5 months. But I was speaking of myself only. I work on big projects and then I scrap a whole level because I am not satisfied enough. I want to improve my levels all the time. That's the reason why I can't join such a contest.

    And how I already said, your contest, your rules and theme. But I also think that nowadays there are less creators in LBP who would spend months to make a complex adventure with a well written story and characters. Those creators exist, but it seemed that they weren't interested or didn't have enough time.

    However, I am looking forward to your next ideas and I hope I will join the next contest despite the risk of not being totally satisfied.


  19. #17

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    I will definitely make sure to have a look at your next contest! There is always room for criticism and feedback. As long as freedom of speech exists you will just have to deal with it, no rules or statements will change that fact!

    You should start it as soon as possible if you're planning on having a lengthy deadline, while there are still active creators. If you wait too long there will not by many participants considering how the active creators are dwindling.

    Once again I look forward to it and I am sure that it will succeed this time! Things are usually always better the second time around.
    Last edited by blacksackman; 03-11-2018 at 09:29 PM.


  20. #18

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    @Lord-Dreamerz Thanks for touching back on this topic! At first I thought it was rather immature of me to open another topic up, but now I think it helped to cool some of the confusion and tension of the posts in the previous thread. And @jwwphotos, I think we're at a point when this whole discussion can be closed up. Can't wait for your next contest @Lord-Dreamerz!


  21. #19

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    Coming back to this, I also feel that it is partly on us, the community, for not participating in this contest. Personally, I feel that not participating in a contest such as this is a sign of laziness. We still have a good 10-15 creators, actively participing in LBPC contests, yet no one decided to participate in Lord-Dreamerz contest. I feel many creators were scared off by all the expectations, but personally I think that's just being lazy. And I know a good amount of people saw this contest, but no one posted an entry or anything. I'm sorry if I'm sounding judgemental, as that's not my intention. I just think it would be better if creators stopped being lazy and took on a bigger challenge of a contest, with more rules and restrictions. The crazy thing is, this contest was announced back in JULY of 2017. almost 7 months passed and no one cared to respond to this contest. I think, personally, that's a sign of people wanting to stay in their comfort zones and not wanting to venture outside the box. We need more, non-LBPC staff contests like this. We can't keep having people create what is most comfortable for them by just giving them a theme and letting their imaginations run wild.


  22. #20
    LBPC crew member mdkd99's Avatar
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    I bet I'm just speaking for myself, but the project I'm working on is going to be 45 minutes long and I want to deliver a adventure with great gameplay, a great story and a breathtaking world. That's insane, because only a few creators have done this in LBP and because Dreams is around the corner. That's definitely out of my comfort zone, I am usually making TopDown shooters with repetitive gameplay.

    I didn't participate because the risk of losing and being the only one with a entry was too high and because the own projects were more important. How I even said, I am looking forward to LordDreamerz' future ideas.


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